The Appeal of the Smaller Breast

from The New York Times I'm Rachel. Abrams and this is the. [Music]. daily for decades breast augmentations. have been one of the most popular. cosmetic surgeries in America but in. recent years a new trend has started to. emerge the breast. reduction today my colleague Lisa Miller. on understanding the appeal of the. smaller.

rest it's Wednesday November. [Music]. 20th hi Lisa hi Rachel so you recently. wrote a story about something that I am. pretty sure we haven't covered on The. Daily before and that topic is breast. reductions and I'd really love to hear. before we get into it why you wrote.

about it and why it interested you sure. I work on the well desk at the New York. Times and well is the area of the times. that covers health and wellness. Nutrition Fitness I am particularly. interested in the subject of women's. bodies and how it feels to be in a. female body walking around in the world. so those are the kinds of stories that I. do so my colleague Stella bugby who is. the editor of the Styles desk handed me.

these numbers one day and the numbers. were from the American Society of. plastic surgeons and they showed this. dramatic increase in breast reductions. Over The Last 5 Years driven by women. under 30 and she was just like what do. you think is going on here so I just set. about sort of. exploring both why the trend and also. sort of what was in women's heads as. they were making these decisions can you.

tell us a little bit about those numbers. specifically what did they show and what. were they so in 2023 which is the last. year for which data are available more. than 76,000 women had breast reductions. and these are not surgeries that have to. do with cancer and they're not gender. affirming surgeries these are surgeries. that insurance companies deem to be. cosmetic and it was just an an. astonishing jump from pre pandemic when.

the number was more like 40,000 and you. know to be sure the most popular. cosmetic breast surgery in the country. is breast augmentation still these. numbers are tiny in comparison to the. numbers of women who are getting. augmentations 300,000 about get an. augmentation every year but those. numbers are creeping downward and the. red ction numbers are going upward not.

just among young women but among women. in every age group you know it's funny I. feel like I too have noticed this trend. towards smaller breasts and popular. culture I can't really put my finger on. it exactly but I feel like I walked into. stores where you see dresses that you. really can only wear if you have small. breasts it feels like there are more. models with small breasts on the runway. and I've noticed this sort of. anecdotally here and there but I didn't. realize at all that that trend was.

actually something quantifiable and. showing up in data somewhere totally I. mean I was thinking about this before I. came to record this session and I was. like it's a little bit like learning a. new word and then you hear that word. everywhere yes totally so you know I saw. these numbers and I was like hm and then. I went out into the world and like in. Brooklyn where I live so many young. women are wearing like tank tops and. camisoles without bras slip dresses. without bras in La where I went to. report the story I saw all these women.

wearing these smok dresses where you. couldn't wear a bra I'm well aware of. the smok. dress and and so it just it really did. feel like it was everywhere all at once. and also I mean it just sort of runs. counter to I think a lot of the imagery. that like we've grown up with in terms. of what was on television like there's a. reason why breast augmentation surgeries. got so big I mean you know when I was. growing up being flatchested was a.

mortification nobody wanted to be. flatchested I remember this distinctly. from high school everybody admired the. girls with bigger boobs the big girls. with bigger boobs like showed off in the. locker room this was the. 80s and you know that was the era of. silicone breast implants that was the. era of big breasted models Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton I'd be remiss if I didn't. bring up Hooters which I do not I do not.

feel like you could have launched that. now but that is a big restaurant chain. that launched I think in the ' 80s or. '90s totally it was all okay and not. only was it all okay it was all. desirable I mean as one of the women I. spoke to for the story said to me like. when you have big breasts you're winning. she's like that's what culture thinks. about big breasts and when you go back. that goes back to post World War II. voluptuousness right like Marilyn Monroe. Le leads into Baywatch leads into.

Kardashians it's this kind of. ostentatious display of. femaleness big breasts. meant power they meant. sex they meant. motherhood they were something that men. wanted and if you had them you know it. was money in the. bank and so by the.

2010's breast augmentation which had. gotten more and more and more. sophisticated the implants had gotten. more and more and more natural looking. was the most popular cosmetic surgery in. the. country. 350,000 women a year were getting a. breast augmentation everything you're. saying I mean all of our experiences I. think add up to the idea that it's not. groundbreaking to say that Americans. have been pretty obsessed with the.

female breast right no not at all it's. not groundbreaking I mean there's been. this obsession with breasts in culture. for you know ever but what surprised me. as I was doing the reporting was the. extent to which the. subsession not only extended into the. medical community but actually. originated with it I had a conversation. with a plastic surgeon who was a woman.

and she was telling me about this paper. that was published in 2011 in a plastic. surgery journal in which an English. plastic surgeon described the Contours. of the ideal. breast and the ideal breast the ideal. breast just. one I mean and he used that language in. the paper in this medical journal and. this text became foundational it became.

like a training text for generations of. doctors and in the introduction to the. paper he talks about how you know. Leonardo da Vinci defined the Contours. of the ideal human face and he put this. effort into that context like he was. helping the profession of plastic. surgeons create and. improve breasts for the world he had.

this idea that the ideal breast was sort. of concave below the nipple and sort of. flat above the nipple so he was very. specific in the shape of the ideal. breast but no one has breasts like this. no one has breast like this and yet the. conventions around what a breast should. look like are so strong and so. established that when a woman walks into. a plastic 's office and remember you.

know four fths of them are men she says. I want something. smaller they say well your husband might. not like that or you should try losing. some weight. first or I like them. rounder and there's a whole Reddit. thread where women tell these stories to. each other about walking into plastic. surgeons offices and asking for smaller. breasts and the feedback they get makes.

them feel like what they're asking for. is crazy so obviously Lisa breast. reduction sounds like a very. self-evident term but just for the sake. of it can you walk us through what the. surgery actually entails yes sure so the. surgery usually involves you know making. an incision around the nipple and then. from the nipple down the length of the.

breast the curved part of the breast and. then. removing a lot of breast tissue from. inside the breast a thing that's really. important to say here is that most of. the women who go in for breast reduction. have double D cups or bigger and these. days the plastic surgeons told me most. women are asking for a b cup whereas 5. years ago they were wanting a C cup mhm.

so they're asking for more breast tissue. to be. removed and you know Kelly Colleen who. was one of the surgeons I spoke to for. my story I was talking to her in her. office she was wearing her scrubs and I. was like but how much breast tissue are. we talking about actually and she. reached down and picked a Coke can up. out of her garbage can and she was like. I just took this much breast tissue out. of one breast in a patient oh my God in. you know it's a lot and so it's a much.

more invasive surgery than augmentation. and it has all of these potential. consequences that are enduring it can. affect a woman's ability to breastfeed. they're not great data on this but the. best study says about a third of the. time it can affect nipple sensation and. there's permanent scars that frequently. go around the nipple down the breast. under the breast and the women are.

really making a big trade you know. they're saying I'm willing to do all of. these things in order for my breasts to. be smaller and so when they decide to. make as you said that big trade and get. the surgery anyway uh what does it end. up costing. them the American Society of plastic. surgeons says it cost about between 7. and $8,000 I spoke to a lot of plastic. surgeons for the story and none of them. charge that little most of them charge. somewhere between 10 and 15,000 with the.

high-end surgeons in New York and La. charging as much as 20 so wow it's a lot. and this is a surgery that can. technically be covered by insurance but. the algorithms and formulas involved are. extremely complex and the bar is really. high and most women don't end up being. covered and so what that means is that. there are women with very large breasts. who may be experiencing some to a lot of. pain who have to pay for this surgery. out of pocket and that is very.

frustrating to them and to their. doctors and the more I talked to the. women the more I. understood that in every woman there's. some combination when she walks into a. surgeon's office asking for this. surgery of pain. discomfort. and a desire to have a different shaped. body that is really different from what.

she had. [Music]. before we'll be right back. [Music].

So Lisa tell us more about what you. actually ended up learning about. people's motivations when you started. talking to them yeah I mean what I. learned was that every individual woman. has a variety of reasons for wanting. this surgery that there is no single. reason and the question is really like. which is the thing that tips the scale. and makes the woman decide to do. it and so so I talked to a lot of women.

in person and on the phone but I also. spent a lot of time on social media and. yeah I'd love to talk about my boobs on. the internet so let's go ahead um there. is a huge breast reduction conversation. happening on Tik Tok on Instagram on. YouTube I'm getting a breast reduction. because it's just always been a struggle. and from immersing myself in all of this. conversation over many many weeks I. would recommend a breast reduction to. anyone considering it I would say that. there are three main reasons why women.

decide to reduce their breasts and the. first one is just physical pain okay. physical pain straight up pain my back. was constantly in pain I could not walk. for more than a mile without having to. stop a woman with very large breast. often has back pain shoulder pain neck. pain I used to actually get chest pain. sometimes cuz I used to feel like I was. getting suffocated by my chest when I. would lay down or wear tight clothing 's. rashes underneath her breasts she can.

get headaches from the pain it can be a. real struggle it is physically painful. to wear most types of bras tops tank. tops anything that supports them pain so. there is a medical need pain aside I. also used to find it hard to find. clothes sometimes another is a sort of a. fashion impulse I could not really shop. at regular department stores because. none of the clothes really catered to my. body body which is just that if you've.

grown up with bigger breasts you've been. wearing. constraining clothes for your whole life. wearing swimsuits that was always hard. getting the right swimsuit finding the. right bra it's so difficult to find bras. that fit you and almost every single. woman I talked to for the story said. that her aspiration going in was to buy. a bra or a bikini at Target like spend. $15 buy something off the r. have it be cute and sexy and carefree.

any store you can think of I've probably. gone there and like they didn't have my. size because they don't really carry 32. and under finding clothes that fit. comfortably that's it that's the. reason I was a 30 H when I was 15 so you. can imagine the stairs I got and I think. you know this is a third bucket but it. really encompasses. everybody when you grow up with very.

large breasts especially if you're very. young just weird weird men and just. stares all the time which as a. 15-year-old being self-conscious anyway. was not nice you are objectified and. sexualized from an incredibly young age. at 16 years old you have these jugs that. grown men are looking at and sexualizing. people look at you people have thoughts. about about you people think you're.

sexually active when you are not. everybody said this to me people always. say you look like a you look like. a because I constantly have my. boobs out and honestly I don't try to. have my boobs out I am wearing an a lot. of women talk to me about shame they. felt from their moms from their teachers. from their siblings I was bullied. because I told this guy didn't want to. be his girlfriend and he made fun of my. chest one woman told me that everybody. in her neighborhood called her fast.

because she had very large breasts as a. child and she had a lot of older. brothers and they basically didn't let. her out of the house alone and I went to. the bathroom and I cried and I was in so. I think you know I think it's intuitive. that it's hard to be that girl but. talking to these women really brought. that home for me they're carrying a lot. and they're caring a lot for a long time. and so when they have a chance to change. that they do. but also just listening to you tick off.

the reasons why a woman might want this. surgery I can kind of Imagine people. reacting with different levels of. acceptance depending on how quote. unquote legitimate they decide the. reasons is are for example if somebody. has an aesthetic desire versus a medical. need you can see how people would. respond differently and about whether. they personally felt that the surgery. was like I said legitimate and it kind. of reminds me of how people lie about. having a nose job like they say oh I had. to deviated septum because you know.

people are not super open about this. stuff always about plastic surgery and. so I'm curious for all of these reasons. do women who get breast reductions do. they feel pressure to like justify their. decision in some way is this something. they talk about openly like I can't even. say how much not at. all hello booby besties as I'm calling. you guys as I tell you all really like. not at all so I am one one month postop.

and I only have positive things to. say instead of being embarrassed about. plastic surgery or lying about it or. hiding it all of the girlies that said. that you're confidence. skyrockets could not be a truer. statement women tell women about their. breast reduction so I just took my 3. Monon postop photos and and I'm going to. show you literally like showing their.

breasts to each other here they. are I canot believe how they look my. girls are perfect now they're the same. size they're nice and perky they're not. bothering me now they're just doing. their thing love them it was the best. decision I've ever made there are of. course women who are unhappy with the. results I'm here to be that person to. tell you that there are negative things. and they're not worth having small. groups women have gotten terrible.

infections takes a long time to recover. from them but the vast majority. expressed no regret or doubt if you are. thinking about getting that breast. reduction do it yeah shout out titties. you know what else can I. say and why do you think that is I think. it's a lot of reasons we are in a postmo. moment and young women are really. determined to get in charge of how.

they're perceived in the world and not. let their. particular body parts be their. introduction into any room they want to. control their presentation they want to. be able to cover up or expose as they. wish they don't want to be part of the. sort of male gaze industrial complex at. all so that's one reason and the other. is that especially young women like gen.

Z women have a very different. relationship to their bodies than my. generation does they are really Avid. consumers of plastic surgery in general. they do arm reductions and fillers and. eyelid stuff and stuff I haven't ever. even heard of not being a consumer of. plastic surgery really they have a just. a much more open idea about being able.

to change their body as part of. self-expression that is not an idea I. grew up with what do you mean by that we. grew up feeling ashamed embarrassed that. we were flatchested or skinny or. whatever not voluptuous or whatever. whatever and then we became enlightened. as young women and at that moment we. were like no no I'm perfect all of my my. cellulite is perfect and my gray hairs.

are perfect and my big nose is perfect. and this sort of aligns with like the. body acceptance movement right like you. don't have to be some kind of. Ideal going back to the plastic surgeon. in the medical journal like you don't. have to Hue to that that is not your. problem that is not your business stand. up and like love yourself in every shape. that you have. and so you know when I approached the.

Gen Z women and I was like why do you. want to do this stipulating that you. know there's pain and health concerns. here what I was probing for what I was. poking at is like don't you think you're. perfect already mhm why do you want to. change your body and what they said was. was surprising which was like no no I am. doing this for me this is. autonomy and if I want a different kind. of breast in order to wear a different.

kind of outfit or present in a different. kind of way that's not an. admission that I'm. capitulating that's an expression of. autonomy and Independence and freedom. Liberation I just can't help but think. like as you're talking about this that. this feels both new because we're. talking about a trend of breast. reductions which is a new thing but it. also feels like kind of a age-old.

argument as long as plastic surgery has. been around it's been this debate of. like are you doing it for you is it. truly empowering and even if you think. it's truly empowering and you're doing. it for you you're actually doing it for. somebody else and what do we think the. right answer is for like who's allowed. to do what even if a woman says that. she's doing it for one reason we can't. always trust her that she understands. her reason so it feels like what's. what's old is new again I guess a little. bit I completely agree with you and I. thought about that a lot as I was. reporting the story like why am I second. guessing the reasons that they're.

telling me yeah exactly yeah and one of. the most revelatory conversations I had. was a conversation I had with a. plus-size model who sort of confessed. that she was considering a breast. reduction and you know she makes her. living being a person in a different. body than the conventional ideal and yet. she too was was attracted by this idea.

that she might be able to unencumber. herself by reducing her breasts I. presented this Dilemma to her like. aren't you supposed to just love who you. are she was like yes yes but we all live. in the world we all take our bodies out. into the world and we get catall and we. get looked at and we get judged and. people think things about us and it is.

impossible to be a female person in the. world and not absorb those. signals and so although in some ideal. Universe we're able to live in our you. know god-given. bodies with happiness and ease in the. real world that is impossible so given. all of this where did you actually land. you yourself as the reporter who happens.

to be a person in the world on this. question of who is this for and whether. this is just yet another way to make. women feel inadequate about our bodies. yeah yes to both like yes plus. one like I I think that the minute you. try to make women choose you're missing. the point and I see this in my own life. right like I have a daughter and I made. sure always to tell her how beautiful.

she. is no matter what and I want her to grow. up with a sense that like nothing about. her body is a thing to be ashamed of or. corrected or fixed or inadequate like. that is the identity I hope that she. carries through the world at the same. time I had breast cancer several years. ago and I had breast reconstruction and. so as I think I alluded to like I am not.

a plastic surgery person that is not my. Natural Choice and yet the breast cancer. forced me to have a breast. reconstruction and what I will say about. that is that my breasts look. better they just do they just do I'm you. know a middleaged late middle-aged woman. they had some miles on them I breastfed.

my daughter I ran two. marathons like the lifted breast is like. nice and so although I wouldn't have. chosen it and I formerly would have had. all kinds of judgment about it m i feel. that it is an. enhancement so who am I to judge. [Music].

well Lisa it's been a pleasure thank you. so much it's been a pleasure love being. [Music]. here we'll be right. [Music].

back here's what else you need to know. today president-elect Trump continued a. series of surprising choices for top. roles in his second Administration. picking celebrity physician Dr Meed oz. to oversee the centers for Medicare and. Medicaid services and Howard lutnick a. Wall Street executive who's leading. Trump's transition team to serve as. secretary lutnick the head of financial.

firm caner Fitzgerald would be in charge. of an agency with an 11 billion budget. and wide influence over broad swaths of. the economy the choice of Dr Oz who's. faced criticism for his sometimes. dubious medical advice comes after Trump. chose Robert F Kennedy Jr a notable. vaccine skeptic to lead the Department. of Health and Human Services in his. announcement Trump said that the two men. would work together to quote take on the. illness industrial complex.

[Music]. today's episode was produced by Olivia. Nat Eric krupy and relle bonja it was. edited by Mark George with help from. Chris haxel contains original music by. Leah Shaw Damron Alicia beup and Marian. Lozano and was engineered by Alysa. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lansford of wonderly. [Music].

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Rachel. Abrams see you tomorrow. [Music].