The Alitos and Their Flags

from New York Times I'm Michel borro. this is the. [Music]. daily today there is mounting pressure. tonight on Supreme Court Justice Samuel. Alo after a report that a symbol used by. election deniers was on display at his. home 11 days after the January 6 Tech. neighbors told the New York Times that. Justice Samuel Alo had an American flag. hanging up upside down outside of his.

house for a guy who is a Supreme Court. Justice that let that happen at his own. home it's just sad more controversy at. the Supreme Court according to the New. York Times a second provocative flag was. flown at a home belonging to Justice. Samuel Alito I think the question is how. many magga battle Flags has a Supreme. Court Justice have to fly until the rest. of the Court takes it seriously The Saga. of Justice Sam Alo the flags that flew.

over his homes and the extraordinary. Fallout that they've created Our Guest. is jod caner the reporter who broke the. [Music]. story it's Tuesday May. [Music]. 28th should we get started.

sure I want to thank you for being in. the studio with me because as you can. probably hear I have a pretty nasty cold. which makes you very brave for sitting. across from me well Michael there was. the time I thought I gave you co right. but you did but you didn't you didn't. thank God okay so just to begin Jody how. did your reporting on this story begin. so I got a tip that shortly after. January 6th an upside down American flag. which at the time had really become a.

symbol of the stop the steel campaign. the effort to overturn the election the. Insurrection at the capital had flown. outside Justice alito's home in Virginia. that's a heck of a tip I wonder what. you're thinking when you first get it. heck of a tip but I you know we hear a. lot of things from a lot of people. Michael and people are mistaken. sometimes and then I was also thinking. wait a second is it possible that the. Alo house old is showing support right.

outside their home for the riot at the. capital this is a Justice of the United. States Supreme Court who's supposed to. embody the law right not display open. Defiance of it exactly and so what do. you do with this tip well I make a round. of phone calls to everyone who lives. around Alo remember that most people. don't even pick up their phones now. because there are so many junk calls and. trustworthy things a lot of people.

didn't want to talk to a reporter right. and also when you're making these calls. you don't want to plant things in. people's mind so I didn't want to ask. did you see an upside down flag you know. I asked did you see anything unusual. outside the Alo home during this period. and there were many people who didn't so. I began to think like maybe this tip is. wrong exactly and then I reached. somebody who heard about it so then I. needed to reach people who had seen it.

so I got a little closer and then I. reached somebody who had taken a. photograph just describe this photo so. the elos live on a really pretty Block. in Virginia it looks like a refuge it's. really quiet it's kind of bucolic. there's bird song in the spring and they. live in a very normal looking house that. has a flag pole next to it and in this. photo that was taken on January 17th.

2021 the American flag is absolutely. hanging upside down and I thought this. is. real but I needed to do more research. into what the upside down flag meant and. what it meant at that time because this. has been a kind of mutable symbol in. America huh so the history is that it. started as a kind of military distress. symbol an SOS a message that something. is really.

really wrong I am so desperate here that. I am turning the flag which is supposed. to be respected upside down and it has a. long history of being used in protests. it was used by the left in the Vietnam. War it's been used by both sides but. what we quickly found is that starting. around the fall of 2020 just before the. election and then certainly afterwards. During the period of the capital Riot. this had coales into a leading symbol of.

the stop the steel campaign we found. message boards where Trump supporters. were being exhorted to turn their flags. upside down in protest of what was. happening we found news clippings from. all over the country where neighbors had. turned their flags upside down to the. horror of other neighbors who felt that. it was a really inappropriate form of. protest but the overall picture is that. but at this time the upside down.

American flag has a real meaning and. that meaning is the election has been. stolen so at this point in your. reporting you've got the flag firmly. established you've got its meaning in. hand so what do you do we ask Justice. Alo about it so I send these questions. to Supreme Court we wait we have no idea. what Justice Alo is going to say and and. when you're an investigative reporter.

and you send off these kinds of queries. you really have one primary question. above all others which is are they going. to deny is he going to dispute the basic. facts of what we're reporting and and we. get this reply that's kind of. fascinating because he says it's about a. neighborhood dispute he I'll redo the. quotes he says I had no involvement. whatso ever in the flying of the flag it.

was briefly placed by Mrs Alo in. response to a neighbor's use of. objectionable and personally insulting. language on yard signs huh so he's not. denying that it happened nor is he. denying that he had knowledge of it at. the time right what did you make of that. what is this dispute that he seems to be. referring to I best you can tell yeah so. it turns out there's a younger couple. living on the Block and they are not shy.

about their political views they put up. signs criticizing Trump the signs have. expletives on them Mrs Alo objects very. strongly to those signs and there are. accusations on both sides of. inappropriate behavior uhhuh so what are. you thinking so we're thinking we better. go ahead and publish the story right. listen a Bedrock rule of judicial ethics. not just the letter of these various. judicial rules but the spirit of them is.

that you do not make political displays. and I'm talking to Legal experts who are. really stressing that judicial rules are. about even the. appearance of partiality even giving. people the wrong. impression and when they hear this. explanation they're saying how could a. neighborhood dispute justify breaking. such a fundamental rule of judicial. conduct and this is not some theoretical. question of.

impartiality remember that this is. greatly heightened not only because it's. the Insurrection it's January 6th it's. the 2020 election it's former president. Trump but remember that the Supreme. Court has to deal with all of this the. court is about to issue these two. climactic rulings in the Trump and. January 6th story both are going to bear. on the coming election in different ways. one is about the scope president Trump's.

immunity for his actions during that. period for trying to overturn the. election the second is about one of the. laws that can hold the January 6th riers. and president Trump accountable. potentially it's about a particular. obstruction law right and whether it is. being fairly and properly applied to. January 6th right so suddenly the. question would seem to be is Justice Alo. having had this flag above his house. coming to these two hugely important.

cases about January 6th impartially or. has he started to tip his hand about how. he feels about the events at the center. of these cases. correct and then those questions only. become stronger because then we get a. tip and the tip is that there's a second. flag. [Music].

we'll be right. back so Jody tell us about this second. tip about a second flag so it's hours. after we've broken the story of the. upside down American flag in Virginia. and then we get this tip the New York. Times has a tip line where you can send. information it's NY Times back slash. tips and lo and behold a reader has sent. in a tip.

about a second flag associated with. January 6th at the alito's other home a. beach house in New Jersey huh and she. sent a photograph wow let me just start. with the idea of a second flag. associated with January 6th what is this. flag that you have now gotten a. photograph of over the alos house in New. Jersey okay so picture a white. background a green pine tree in the. center and the words of appeal to Heaven.

at the top of the flag now this is a. very old American flag it was created. around the time of the Revolutionary War. and until about a decade ago it was kind. of a relic it was really obscure the. kind of thing that was in museums but. then it gets revived by a very specific. group with a very specific purpose which. is well there's this religious leader. named Dutch sheets he's a leader of a. loose group that scholar call the New.

Apostolic Reformation this is a. far-right Evangelical group and their. real goal is to kind of re christianize. the country and especially the. government they have these Grand. Ambitions and when he discovers this. flag in 2013 he sees this as the symbol. of what he wants to do so he says. looking back at the last couple of. Decades of Juris Prudence is not not. only that the Supreme Court at this.

point is too liberal but that it's evil. that it's introducing bad things to the. country and he really admires Justice. Alo he kind of refers to him as their. great hope because Justice Alo cares. about religious liberty uh as he does he. opposes the Supreme Court's same-sex. marriage decision so one of the things. dut sheets does to popularize this flag. and the set of ideas is that he tries to. get the flag into the hands of powerful.

people he gives it to Sarah Palin he. gives it to all sorts of political. leaders this group also presents it just. a few weeks before the 2020 election to. president Donald Trump so this group has. become very very ardently supportive of. President Trump in the fall of 20120. they're pushing very hard for his. reelection and when he loses they become. a kind of religious arm of the stop the.

steel campaign D sheets does a mega. church tour where he tells people that. the election is stolen and they should. be really alarmed and as a result on. January 6th we end up seeing this appeal. to Heaven flag peppered all over the. scene at the capital. [Music]. Riot huh so this flag which according to. this Photograph sent into the New York.

Times tipline is hanging above Justice. alito's second. home by the time it's doing that quite. recently is an emblem basically of stop. the steal for the American Christian. right yes I would say it stands for. three things it is highly associated. with support for president trump it is. highly associated with January 6th and. the stop the steel campaign and also. with the this idea that Christianity.

needs to retake the country and its. government so we start with one photo. but we want to understand the duration. because okay was this flag just up for 5. minutes no we come up with photos from. July August and September of. 2023 two plus years after January 6th. exactly and the timing of last summer is. really significant first of all it shows. that the first flag in Virginia is not a.

one-off it just seems like much less of. a random event but second of all these. January 6th legal cases are in the. process of arriving at the court right. one of them the obstruction case about. the law for prosecution is actually. arriving at the court During the period. the flag is being flown the docket. clearly reflects that the first papers. were there last summer. and then Trump has already been indicted.

and there's a pretty good chance that. that proceeding is going to end up at. the Supreme Court and yet this flag. flies correct and then the other thing. happening at the court around this time. is that the justices are trying to. finalize an Ethics code remember there's. been a ton of controversy about the. conduct of the. justices why aren't Supreme Court. Justices Bound by the same rules as. other federal judges and in inside the.

court they are trying to work out what a. code of conduct might say Justice Elena. Kagan gives a speech during this time. saying we're really close we're hoping. to have something for you soon but there. are some final disagreements we're. trying to work out and yes right at this. moment the elite oh home in New Jersey. is flying this flag that seems clearly. over the line okay so what does Justice. Alo have to say about this flag nothing.

he declines to respond got it Jord the. inevitable question here is how do these. flags fit into our understanding of. Justice Samuel Alo as you said and as. most people who know the court. understand he is very conservative. that's not really in. dispute but does this flag deepen our. understanding of that or is it genuinely. surprising in what it reveals about the. depth of that. so here's what we do know and what we.

don't know Justice Alo is a very. conservative Justice right one of the. kind of twists of this current ERA on. the court is that the justi is appointed. by President Donald Trump which we think. of as so conservative which we think of. as so conservative are not as. conservative as Bush justices like. justice Alo and Justice Thomas Justice. Alo is very open about his feelings. about religious liberty cases he is the.

Justice who drove the Dos decision that. overturned Ro v Wade and he authored. that majority opinion I mean he is very. clear about his beliefs in his opinions. but these flags raise I think a new set. of questions about him both about his. beliefs and his ethics listen I just. want to remind you that we don't know. everything about when or by who these. flags were raised we don't know all the.

details but they do raise a question of. why two of his homes appeared to be. flaunting these beliefs in a kind of. open Defiance of all the Norms of how. judges should. behave I'm curious what the response to. your reporting has been once it becomes. clear I think objectively speaking that. the raising of these flags seems to be. at odds with ecal guidelines for federal.

judges what do people have to say about. it there are some conservatives who have. written it off what's the controversy. here am I missing something yeah Kaylee. this is just another partisan smear. against Justice Alo he's under no. obligation to recuse from cases because. of a flag his wife flies no one besides. the times this week suggested that this. was a symbol of insurrection a symbol of. criminality and all of a sudden this is. accepted wisdom you know people who are. judges on the Supreme Courts have. personal lives they have families and I.

don't think they're necessarily. responsible for everything their. families do or say but also it is. stunning there's been a lot of shock. it's not enough to be a Supreme Court. Justice flying one magga battle flag at. your house you got to have two houses. and fly two magga battle Flags one at. each house he definitively needs to. recuse himself from any matter pending. before the United States Supreme Court.

that has to do with the January 6. violent Insurrection in Congress there. have been a lot of calls for his recusal. from the January 6th cases ESP he should. not show up and vote on these cases. correct because there is a law that. binds all federal judges including. Supreme Court Justices on recusal and a. lot of people are saying this meets the. recusal standard without question he. needs to recuse himself from those cases. step aside on all the cases that.

involved Donald Trump there are even. Republican Senators you know I mean I. don't know what happened you know all I. can say is it created a situation that. we're all talking about Senator Lindsey. Graham criticized Justice Alo yeah I. think it was a mistake but I'll leave it. up them to explain it but at the end of. the day the question is really what is. happening inside the Supreme Court what. do you mean because one thing we know. about the court is that it's essentially.

self-governing they've created their own. ethics code but there's no enforcement. mechanism you know Michael we've talked. about this on the show before these are. nine individually confirmed. justices Chief Justice John Roberts is. the titular head of the Court he's the. chief administrator he's not really. their boss right so it's unclear that. even if other members of the Court think. this was a really bad idea if they can. do anything. to hold Justice Alo accountable so it's.

quite likely that the repercussions of. having these two flags fly over these. two houses of a Supreme Court Justice. will be absolutely nothing maybe I'm not. ready to make a prediction on that yet. but I will tell you this these two. January 6th cases were already so. fraught these are so wrapped up in. politics they're about the last election. they're about which features candidates. who will be in the next election exactly. everything about the cases even the.

timing even the small procedural details. of you know what happens when in each. case let alone the big decisions that. the court makes about these two cases. will have political consequences and the. court was kind of already in a bind with. them because it's been clear that no. matter what they decide on either of. these two issues the challenge of. getting a broad swath of Americans to.

really accept these decisions as. authoritative is immense and these flags. just don't make it any. easier Jody I can't end this. conversation without asking you a. somewhat provocative question that I. think is pretty important it's not. exactly a secret at this stage of. America's history that our Supreme Court. has justices on it who operate in a way. that feels partisan and so is this kind. of an open acknowledgement of something. that we've known for really long time.

which is that the justices take pretty. predictable votes on questions that are. ideological and Is AO basically just. saying let's dispense with the illusion. that we are anything other than. political actors in the judicial. landscape and I so don't feel the need. to hide that fact anymore that I or my. wife or both of us just going to hoist a. flag right over our house saying it. look the Supreme Court has always been.

political throughout its history There's. No Illusion about the way Supreme Court. Justices get appointed but the. commitment has always been to abandon. partisanship at the door that's what. they all say they're going to do in. their confirmation hearings I put on. this robe and I take off my politics. correct so my question for justice Alo. is are you still committed to that way. of operating. and my question to the court as a.

reporter is well once a Justice appears. not to be acting that way what will the. court do about. [Music]. it well Dy thank you very much thank you. [Music].

we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need. to no day an Israeli air strike in the.

city of Rafa on Sunday killed at least. 45 people who were Sheltering in a. makeshift tent camp according to the. Gaza Health. Ministry the attack fueled growing. outrage over Israel's military tactics. the strike occurred just outside what. Israel has designated as a humanitarian. Zone where it's told Palestinian. civilians in Rafa to seek shelter and it. came just days after the International. court of justice ordered Israel to end.

its military offensive in Rafa an order. that Israel has. ignored on Monday Israel's prime. minister called the civilian deaths a. tragic accident and accused Hamas of. deliberately hiding among the civilian. population in. Gaza today's episode was produced by mu. zi Eric krupky and Luke Vander pluk it. was edited by Michael benois and Lisa. Chow contains original music by Mar.

Lozano and Dan Powell and was engineered. by Alyssa Moxley our theme music is by. Jim brunberg and Ben lansberg of. wonderly special thanks to aric Toler. and Julie. Tate that's it for da I'm Michael B see. you tomorrow. [Music].