The Afterlife of a Gun

from The New York Times I'm Natalie kro. this is the. [Music]. daily Across America hundreds of towns. and cities are trying to get guns off. the streets by turning them over to. businesses that offer to destroy them. but a New York Times investigation found. that something very different is. happening today my colleague Mike.

McIntyre on the unintended consequences. of efforts by local officials to rid. their communities of. [Music]. [Applause]. gums it's Tuesday January. [Music]. 9th Mike you cover guns in America where. gun possession is a unique protected.

right which means that getting guns out. of circulation is an uphill battle and I. understand you've been looking into that. tell me about your reporting yeah we've. been looking a lot at the issues of gun. violence gun culture gun Commerce in the. United States because with more than 400. million firearms and the civilian. population it continues to be a major. issue of public debate and a lot of that. debate has centered around the easy. accessibility of guns how simple is to.

be able to purchase one the types of. Firepower involved and the Havoc that. they can wreak I mean gun violence. actually surpassed car crashes recently. in terms of the most common cause of. death for children and adolescents wow. more than half of the gun violence. related deaths are suicides so there's. every reason to be looking at the. scourge of gun violence but there's also. this other side of it that doesn't get a. lot of attention which is you know what. happens to guns that nobody wants. anymore and so we started taking a look. look at at what that process looks like.

and discover that it's actually not. quite as simple as you might think okay. just to back up a second say more about. what guns we're talking about here these. unwanted guns that are up for disposal. so police departments have a tendency to. become almost like landfills or. repositories for firearms that come into. their possession through any number of. ways sometimes guns are confiscated from. crime scenes you get people turning in. guns that they don't want other times. it's the police agencies themselves that.

are trying to upgrade their service. weapons and so they wind up with an. inventory of old ones that they need. something to do with and especially at. larger police departments you very. quickly as you might imagine end up with. storage lockers and evidence rooms just. you know chalk full of guns and related. equipment right this is obviously a. liability problem I mean you get. situations where guns have disappeared. from police departments you get other. cases in which guns are sold or. auctioned off because they just need to.

free up space and then it winds up being. reused again in a crime sometimes even. against police so there's a whole lot of. controversy about what happens to these. guns but that basically is why the. police are in the situation of having to. figure out how to dispose of them. because they just simply wind up with. more than they know what to do with okay. so basically these are guns that are. just hanging around and the police need. to do something with them and more and. more they're trying to destroy these. guns and take them out of circulation. right but there is a sort of subset that.

has increased in recent years and that. is the population of guns that are. turned into what they call buyback. programs and these are programs in which. governments or sometimes nonprofit. organizations like churches especially. will offer incentives for people to turn. in guns that they don't want either. through cash payments or sometimes. grocery store gift cards that sort of. thing there's not a lot of research that. suggests that they do much to reduce. crime which has led to some criticism of.

these by gun rights Advocates however. there's also sort of a logic to why they. might want to be done in the sense that. if nothing else they would remove guns. from unstable situations households in. which there's a concern that a gun being. present might contribute to a tragic. event like a suicide or a domestic. violence incident or a child getting a. hold of it and and hurting his or. herself or someone else so BuyBacks have. become increasingly popular and they are. making up more and more of the fire arms.

that police wind up having to dispose of. okay so Mike how have they been. destroying all these guns both the. police Surplus ones and the guns from. the buyback programs so traditionally. the way that guns are disposed of has. been very limited means that there's a a. surprisingly small number of approved. methods that the Bureau of Alcohol. Tobacco and Firearms which is the. regulatory agency overseeing guns in the. United States says are acceptable and in. the past it really boiled down to one of. two ways one was to put it through a.

smelter at a steel mill and literally. melt it down wow another was to use a. blowtorch to make a series of cuts in. the firearm to make sure that it's. rendered inoperable and basically reduce. it to three or four pieces and other. methods that have been used in the past. would be simply trying to smash it with. a sledgehammer it's all kind of medieval. yeah you're right I mean the problem as. you might guess is that first of all. some of these are dangerous and secondly. they're not guaranteed to work complet. completely and then thirdly they can be.

expensive if you're going to use a torch. to do a whole lot of guns you're. probably going to have to pay a gunsmith. or someone like that to do it so police. departments literally take those guns to. a smelter or someone who just smashes it. to Smither yes I mean that's. traditionally the way it's been done in. the past but about a decade ago there. was a new process introduced that began. to change things a little. bit interestingly it was introduced by a. former police officer himself it was a. fellow named Ray Reynolds from the St.

Louis Police Department who had retired. in the late 1980s and gone to work for a. couple of gun companies and he then. started his own business of helping. police departments trade in their. unwanted or old service weapons to use. as credit to purchase new ones and. somewhere along the line he saw an. opening in the whole area of how to. dispose of guns new at 6 pulverizing. pistols a local company is helping. collect and Destroy unwanted guns and. Reynolds created this company called.

gunbusters tonight an up close look at. this metal mashing machine which. developed a machine called the Firearms. pulverizer he had it patented in 2014. and they put video cameras inside it and. so you could actually videotape the. destruction process and see it happening. and so his idea was to take this and use. that machine to destroy the gun quickly. and easily this was his Innovation that. it was a way for police departments to.

avoid having to deal with steel mills. avoid having to deal with blowtorches. and sledgehammers and provide them with. a quick way to kind of solve this. [Music]. problem and did you find in your. reporting Mike that this was actually a. more efficient way of getting rid of. guns than say smashing them with a. sledgehammer so we visited the. gunbusters facility which is located. outside St Louis mind if I just record. this so I get just so I could and we got. a tour the place from the president of.

the company Scott Reed who is the. son-in-law of the founder so we are. licensed by ATF same way any gun store. would be one of the Striking things when. we first go in there is they have rows. and rows of walk-in vaults filled with. guns that they've been collecting from. police agencies all over the country. which have to be destroyed and so you. get a sense the full scale of it you're. talking thousands of weapons whoa can we. any chance of taking a look at how this. AB how this rig works so this is our. home so there's two way ways to look at. it it's either a scaled up paper.

shredder or it's a scaled down car. Shredder and he showed us how the whole. process. works and I have to say it really is. quite efficient so it says now it's. recording set it down drop it. in you can see from the camera inside. the process as it happens the gun goes. in one end gets crunched. up so you see you know you get little. right piece. is and did it cut through and then comes.

out the other end as pieces and then. there's a computer program that. basically records as a time and date and. the witness who was there and all that. is sent to the police and the best thing. about this process for law enforcement. agencies is it's completely free it's. free it's free it costs them nothing and. that is the big selling point and. probably the main innovation of. gunbusters now there's a reason for how. they can do that and this is sort of the. rub and the whole story is that they.

dismantle the firearm before it's put. through the machine and only one. component is usually put through the. pulverizer and crushed all the rest of. the parts of the gun are then sold. online for anybody to purchase so you're. telling me that this company that. advertises itself as a pulverizer of. Guns is actually salvaging parts of them. and then selling them off basically. fueling a secondary market for guns.

that's exactly correct and the way they. do it has a lot to do with how guns are. regulated in the United. States they dismantle each firearm that. they collect from police agencies and in. doing that they remove the single piece. of the gun that under the law and. regulation is considered to be a firearm. and that is called a receiver or the. frame and what this component is is is. really the central core of the gun to.

which all the other pieces are connected. so you've got the barrel the stock the. trigger slide whatever which all depend. on having this one Central piece in. order to make it a working firearm now. it gets a little complicated but under. the gun control act of 1968 the receiver. of the frame by itself is considered to. be a. firearm so if you are a gunbusters and. you're telling the police that we're. going to destroy the firearm which is. what they want then you can get away. with just simply destroying that one.

piece and say that you've destroyed the. firearm this is not known by a lot of. average people but it is known to the. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms. they don't have a problem with that they. told us that you know the interpretation. of the law is accurate and that is an. acceptable way of destroying a. gun now. once you destroy that one piece you are.

left with a whole bunch of pieces that. could be put back together again but. they would still need that one missing. piece in order to make a working gun and. that is basically how gunbusters and. other companies like it there are a. handful of others that do this make. their money they take those pieces and. they sell them as kits wow which means. that you can buy one without having a. background check you don't have to go. through a licensed dealer to purchase. one of these cuz it's not a functioning. gun but you can make it a functioning. gun you can then go and obtain a.

receiver or frame someplace else put it. together with one of these kits and then. you've got a reconstituted firearm now. if the client wants to pay for it. gunbusters will be happy to destroy the. whole gun but the police agency would. have to give them money to to do that. but is that what is actually happening. that these parts are in fact being. repurposed into new guns it's a little. bit difficult to know exactly how often.

that happens and what the parts kits are. used for certainly there are people who. are gun collectors or enthusiasts who. might be looking for a piece especially. if an old gun that's no longer available. and they want to be able to maintain or. fix a firearm but that wouldn't account. for the frequency with which these kits. are sold and if you go for instance on. the website called gun broker which is. the world's largest online site for. buying and selling firearms that is. where most of gun Busters kits are sold.

you will find other sellers saying in. their listing oh you can pair this with. a kit from gunbusters and make a. complete working gun wow so we know that. people certainly are buying these kits. with that in mind and we know that most. of the guns that gunbusters takes in. from police agencies do wind up being. sold in this way so there's every reason. to believe that a large portion of these. kits are being purchased for the exact. purpose of being able to put them back. together again and make a working gun.

but it sounds like we don't have any way. of knowing exactly what happens to Any. Given kit to Any Given set of gun. parts part of the problem with trying to. figure out what exactly happens to these. gun kits that are sold online by by. gunbusters is they don't include the. serial number because that one component. of the gun that they actually did. destroy is the one component that has. the serial number so the remaining parts. most of the time do not have any kind of.

a way of tracing them and one of the. concerns from gun violence groups is. that there are people out there who are. capable of making their own receivers. and Frames which are not serialized. these are commonly referred to as ghost. guns because they are not traceable and. you would have a working gun with no way. of knowing where any of the components. came from okay so all of this is pretty. shocking I mean I assume the people who. wanted a gun eliminated because they. felt like like it posed a specific.

threat would be pretty surprised that. that gun was just repurposed it feels. like a bait and switch and also. potentially a total Boon for this. company well certainly has been a boon. for the company and others like it. gunbusters says that they've taken in. more than 200,000 Firearms over the past. decade from about 950 police agencies. across the country their biggest client. being the Michigan State Police so when. you figure the amount of money they've. been making in selling these parts kits. they've you know made millions of.

dollars so it's certainly been lucrative. for these. businesses when you take into account. the total number of guns in America it. may not seem like a big number we're. talking about but you know if you. consider the Havoc that one firearm is. capable of wreaking or if someone simply. wants to make sure a gun is taken out of. circulation you know they may now be. surprised by this to find out that they. feel like they've been LED astray and. not knowing what was actually happening. to these guns but the reality is. actually a lot more complicated and if.

you take a closer look at how this came. to be in many ways it was totally. [Music]. predictable we'll be right. back Mike before the break you explained. to us that gunbusters a private company. is taking unwanted guns across the. country and is generally understood to. be destroying them but is actually only.

destroying part of that gun and selling. the rest for profit but you also said. that while surprising it's also totally. predictable explain that when you look. at the actual agreements that gunbusters. entered into with law enforcement. agencies they make pretty clear in the. text of these contracts that gunbusters. intends to do exactly what it does give. an example the sheriff's office in. Denton County Texas has agreement in. which it says that no money will be.

exchanged or reimbursed as a result of. the destruction of the Firearms meaning. that the Sheriff's Office doesn't have. to pay anybody but then further down it. also says that gunbusters will sell. salvaged parts and scrap metal now scrap. metal is understandable because when you. put the gun through the pulverizer what. comes out the other end are just. shredded pieces of metal and they do. make a little bit of money by selling. that but salvaged Parts is something. completely different and that refers to. the gun kits that is really where the.

most of their money comes from so this. is not a huge mystery to the police. departments that are entering into these. agreements with. gunbusters so the city officials and. police department's Contracting with. gunbusters do know that the guns aren't. actually being destroyed I mean are they. reading the contract and fully aware. that this is the deal well so that's a. good question from my review of a lot of. city council Town Council local board. authorizations of these contracts what.

you often see is what you might expect. is that they're sometimes approving a. whole slate of contracts all at once. it's often done on a very quick up and. down vote there's no reading of the. contract there's no questions asked so. the police and the sheriff's offices. they know what's in these contracts but. they also know that if they were to pay. for this it would require going to the. local elected officials and asking for. money it would mean asking for a line. item in their budget and that's not. something something that most of these. police departments want to do or have to.

get involved in and the elected. officials often have just no idea what's. in these contracts all they know is that. they've entered into some sort of an. agreement to destroy the guns because. that's how it it's described the guns. are going to be destroyed and to a lay. person that's not a very complicated. thought but the details are where the. devil is and most of the elected. officials that I came across have no. idea that's actually what's happening. okay then gunbusters isn't lying to. anybody they technically in the contract. are saying exactly what they're offering.

and police departments and other groups. Contracting with them are maybe just. willfully ignoring the fine print for. the reasons you just described but on. the other hand the entire point of these. programs is destroying guns how does. this meet that goal in any way this is. where the law and regulations around. Firearms becomes important because if. you remember I I mentioned the gun. control act which was the law passed in. 1968 where they defined firearms and. that particular way when that law was.

passed and the regulations were drafted. to enact it it was not the intention. that the time to create this sort of. loophole that's now being exploited if. you will the intention in delineating. what a receiver or frame was was. actually to make the regulations a. little bit tighter it was not meant to. create that loophole at all Mike it. sounds like in this kind of Twisted way. this law that was supposed to be. restrictive is now actually perversely.

making it harder to get rid of guns yes. I mean I think that the intent of the. regulations that were created after the. 1968 act never foresaw the situation. where it would somehow allow for guns. that were intended to be destroyed to. instead be essentially recycled in some. fashion back out into the civilian. market and yet in this one way it has. had the opposite effect but it seems. like the obvious solution here would be. to change the legal definition of a gun.

I mean right or at least for these. governments to just pay the fee to. destroy the entire gun which you said. earlier gunbusters would do well. certainly if the police agencies and the. towns that that support them would be. willing to pay to have gunbusters. destroy the complete firearm that would. be the simplest solution but Scott Reed. when I visited gunbusters told me that. some 98% of their clients opt not to do. that the other op option would be to try. to somehow change the regulations around.

what defines a receiver or a frame and. that seems very unlikely I mean first of. all you would have to either change the. law or the ATF interpretation of the law. and the regulations and neither of those. things seem likely to happen in the. current climate so even though this is. clearly a loophole that was not meant to. cause the effect that it is having now. that it exists it's hard to roll back. especially in the context of the super. political nature of everything related.

to guns yes I mean it was a given at one. time that police departments that wanted. to get rid of guns could easily do so. and now you've got situations in which. there are actually some states where. mostly Republican legislator are passing. laws that actually prevent police. departments from destroying guns in. their inventory and so instead what. they're forced to do is to auction them. off or sell them so this is where you. see this Great Divide happening where. you've got mostly red States and. communities that are making it more.

difficult for police to get rid of guns. and you've got mostly blue cities and. states where the opposite is happening. Mike I'm curious how Scott Reed the man. who runs gunbusters how do you think he. feels about all of this I mean he must. know that some people are under the. impression that he really is taking guns. out of circulation when we know he's not. I talked to him about this a couple of. times do you guys have like a philosophy. of of around this I mean what is your. and he acknowledges that there are.

people that he deals with who do want. the full gun to be destroyed and from. his point of view if they're willing to. pay to do that then he will do that I. think at some point you know both sides. see things in us that you know we can. take as a positive and both sides see. things I can take as a negative I don't. know that we're actively convincing. anyone hey you should destroy your guns. you know these are the day though he's a. businessman he's in the business of.

making money and providing a service to. law enforcement agencies so you know I I. think we walk that tight rope of how are. we you know a public service where we're. helping Apartments we are taking guns. out you know of the system um but then. you know parts are still you know remain. out there so he can say that even the. method that they do follow of taking the. gun apart and selling the pieces you. know it is succeeding in taking guns out. of the community in which the police.

department had them and so you know if a. police agency somewhere has a bunch of. guns from a buyback and they want to get. them out of the community and off the. street giving them the gunbusters at. least does that but you know of course. if they don't pay to have the thing. completely destroyed then the parts of. those guns will find their way back out. somewhere just may not be in that. particular Community right on the oneand. you could see gunbusters as exploiting. the vagaries in the law and the desire. to get guns off the street to make make. money but on the other hand gunbusters.

is being pretty straightforward in what. they're doing they see a market and. they're not being untruthful about the. service they're providing I mean maybe. people should just read the fine print. so how do you think about this Mike it. really struck me going into this that as. easy as it is to obtain a gun in America. these days it's surprisingly difficult. to get rid of one and the fact that. we're engaged in this semantic debate. about what isn't a firearm and what's. not a firearm it just goes to how.

polarized everything is on this whole. subject and so the real reason why it's. so difficult to destroy a gun has little. to do with the means in which you would. physically do it it has more to do with. what it means to have a firearm and the. ability to regulate them is really what. it boils down to and even when there are. genuine efforts to destroy guns it. doesn't happen I mean there are enough. for forces against it there's enough of.

a market there that it fails that is one. of the great ironies is that at the end. of the day even the best. intentions when it comes to how to. destroy a gun are often. [Music]. thwarted and the people who think. they're doing some service to their. Community by taking guns off the street. they are led to believe Often by their. elected leaders who aren't paying. attention that this in fact is what's. happening and it turns out that it's.

[Music]. not Mike thank you well thank. [Music]. you following the times investigation. Michigan State Police which sends. gunbusters about 11,000 guns a year and. is its largest client has temporarily. paused its contract with the company.

[Music]. we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today Hezbollah the iran-backed militant. group said on Monday that one of its. commanders had been killed in a strike. in southern Lebanon near the country's. border with Israel. Israel and Hezbollah have Trad.

increasingly intense crossb fire since. Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza began. 3 months ago the latest attack which. follows an Israeli Strike last week that. killed senior Hamas leaders in Lebanon. has added to fears that the war in Gaza. could erupt into a wider regional. conflict and in an interview with the. times the chief spokesman for the. Israeli military said that Israel is EXP. to begin to shift away from a large.

scale ground and air campaign in Gaza to. a more targeted phase in its war against. Hamas involving fewer troops and air. strikes the disclosure comes as US. Secretary of State Anthony blinkin. visits leaders in the Middle East this. week on a trip aimed at preventing the. fighting from. [Music]. expanding today's episode was produced. by Mary Wilson Diane win Stella tan and. relle Banja it was edited by Lexi Di and.

Paige cowt contains original music by. Marian Lozano Dan pal Rowan neimo and. Pat mccusker and was engineered by. Alyssa. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brenberg and Ben lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly. that's it for the daily I'm Natalie kro.

see you. [Music]. tomorrow.