Supreme Court Seems Skeptical of Trump’s Tariffs

From the New York Times, I'm Rachel. Abrams and this is the Daily. [music]. On Wednesday, the Supreme Court heard. arguments in the biggest [music] case of. its term about whether the president has. the authority to impose the highest. tariffs the country has seen [music] in. a century. Today, my colleague, [music] Adam. Liptac, explains why the court seemed. like it might be willing to say no to.

this president. It's Thursday, [music] November 6th. Hi, Adam. >> Hello, Rachel. >> Thanks for being with us today. It was. obviously a very busy day for the. Supreme Court, which was taking up one. of Trump's signature policies, tariffs. just to start, can you walk us through. what was at stake in this case? >> So, this is easily the most closely. watched case of the term. It involves.

President Trump's central signature. initiative, tariffs. And it's also the. court's biggest confrontation yet with. the scope of executive power in the. second Trump administration. And the. question in the case was huge. It was. whether or not Congress has authorized. President Trump to pursue tariffs which.

are his main lever in international. relations and he says protecting the. nation's security. >> And just to be really clear, Adam, why. would the president not have the. authority to impose tariffs? Article one. of the constitution which lays out. Congress's powers is quite clear that. the power to tax and tariffs are a form. of taxation and the power to regulate. international commerce is for Congress. and Congress can let the president have.

part of its authority. But this is a. situation in which the constitution is. quite clear that Congress needs to. authorize this kind of activity that. this is not something the president can. do without that authorization. >> But Trump obviously imposed tariffs in. his first term. So why was that allowed. to stand and yet these tariffs in his. second term are being so contested? >> There are laws that allow the president. to impose tariffs in limited situations. Laws that specifically use the word.

tariffs. and authorized the president to. take action. But those were limited. actions in the first Trump term. In the. second Trump term, President Trump. announces that he is going to use. tariffs in a much more aggressive, wide-ranging global way. And for that. authority, he turned to a different. statute, IPA, the International. Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977.

And as the statute says, it's meant for. emergencies. >> And remind us, Adam, what was the. emergency that the president was. claiming to justify these tariffs? >> The president identified two. emergencies. One, he says fentinel is entering the. country and he needs to take action. against Mexico, Canada, and China. And. the other he says it's an emergency that. we've had persistent. trade deficits and that requires tariffs. against almost the entire globe. But a.

bunch of small businesses affected by. the tariffs and several states took a. different view and said that the statute. he invoked this AIPA statute did not. authorize the tariffs that he wants to. impose and they sued and the cases they. filed went to the Supreme Court. >> So let's talk about the arguments today. I listened to them also and they were.

pretty expansive. They stretched for. almost three hours and a lot of time was. spent really digging into the statute. that you mentioned IPA. So where do you. think we should begin? >> Yeah. So, I think it probably makes. sense to spend a minute with the statute. because it does say that if there is a. national emergency of the kind we were. talking about, Rachel, the president may. prescribe by means of instructions, licenses, or otherwise. And then it says. a bunch of things he can do like there's.

15 verbs. He can investigate, he can. block, he can regulate, he can nullify, he can void, he can prohibit. the. importation or exportation of various. goods, but it doesn't include the word. tariff or any similar word duty, tax, impost. And it's an open question. whether it authorizes the president to. impose any tariffs, much less the.

expansive, aggressive ones that he. instituted at the beginning of his. second term. We will hear argument this morning in. case 241287, learning resources versus Trump. And. >> so when the court heard arguments, >> Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the. court, >> the administration's lawyer focused on. two key words. >> The phrase regulate importation plainly. embraces tariffs, which are among the. most traditional and direct methods of. regulating importation.

>> This enormous string of verbs, he says, what's important here is the president. can regulate. importation. >> this way the power to impose tariffs is. a core application of the power to. regulate foreign commerce which is what. the phrase regulate importation in IPA. naturally evokes. >> and that's a central question for the. justices do you get from regulation of. importation to tariffs. >> because the idea here being the statute. doesn't actually include explicit. instructions that the president can tax.

or tariff so the government is making. the argument that regul includes. the ability to tax and tariff. >> Right. And. >> Mr. Kio, >> thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. And may it. please the court. >> The challengers say. >> tariffs are taxes. They take dollars. from Americans pockets and deposit them. in the US Treasury. Our founders gave. that taxing power to Congress alone. >> Hey, if that's true, >> it would give the president enormous. power if you read regulate to include.

the power to tax. It's simply. implausible that in enacting AIPA, Congress handed the president the power. to overhaul the entire tariff system and. the American economy in the process. allowing him to set that there are any. number of ways in which the statute. actually an issue in the case does not. confer the power to impose tariffs. It's. just not there. He says. >> so Adam talk a little bit about how the. justices drill down into what the. statute said.

>> So it has a lot of verbs. It has a lot. of actions that can be taken under this. statute. It just doesn't have the one. you want. >> Well, I would say the. >> So, part of the argument turns into a. kind of grammar seminar. >> The word license is used in AIA. It's. not used as a verb, it's used as a noun. >> Really trying to understand not so much. what the purpose of the statute was, but. just what the words mean. Justice. Katanji Brown Jackson for instance. >> said. >> other places where Congress wants that.

particular form of regulation to be used. they say impose duties they say you can. tax. Mr. president here. They don't say that. >> that Congress knows how to authorize. tariffs. Congress does that all the. time. >> And you look at all the tariff statutes. that Congress has passed. I I mean they. use language about revenue raising. tariffs and duties and taxes. Um all the. language that does not appear in the.

statute you rely on. Several justices. make the point of the statute. >> that the absence of the word tariffs or. synonyms, duties, taxes, imposts is. significant. >> Right? It almost felt like the liberal. justices were trying to speak the. languages that we often hear from. conservative justices, which is to stick. to an extremely literal interpretation. of the text. So it's true that the liberals were. quite happy to be textualists and.

literalists and the conservatives. kind of faced a choice if they followed. that road. That's a road that's quite. rocky for the administration. But it's. quite hard for them to run away from. that methodology because there's really. broad agreement among the conservatives. that textualism, the words of the. statute are what count and we're not. going to try to look at what the. consequences of a decision are. We're.

just going to look at the words. >> Can I just ask you a question? For. instance, Justice Amy Coney Barrett, who's a key vote in this case, asks the. government's lawyer, >> "Can you point to any other place in the. code or any other time in history where. that phrase together regulate. importation has been used to confer. tariff imposing authority?" Well, as to. regulation, >> can you give me any other other example. ever in the history of the nation where. it the power to impose tariffs has been. conferred by a statute that doesn't even.

mention tariffs any bobs and weaves and. >> I think I think our argument goes a bit. further than that as interpretive matter. because if you look at that history the. history of delegates. >> could you just answer the justice's. question? A liberal justice Sonia Sotomayor knows. that this is a good thing that she. should jump up and support Justice. Barrett says just answer the question. and Barrett returns to it. So they. really care about what the words of the. statute say. >> Even for the Supreme Court, this seemed.

like an unbelievably close parsing of. specific words. >> This is not unusual for the court in a. minor case. This is exactly what they. do. They roll up their sleeves and they. try to understand what the statute. actually conveys, what the words. actually mean. It's pretty unusual. though, Rachel, you're right about this, for a blockbuster case to seem to turn. on this kind of close reading. >> So why do you think that happened in. this case? >> Most of the time the really big Supreme. Court cases involve the Constitution,

which is written in general terms and. which is the subject of endless. precedence. and they're working in a. different kind of mode there. When. they're working on a statutory case, one. that simply asks, do the words of the. statute authorize a given action? They're much more likely to take this. kind of close reading approach. So, this. is a real forensic exercise. It's it's. not, you know, freedom of speech. It's.

not equal protection. It's like what did. Congress in 1977 do? So obviously the. justices spent a lot of time parsing the. meaning of a few specific words, but one. thing that they didn't spend a lot of. time parsing, which I thought was kind. of interesting, was whether or not the. fentinel crisis and the trade deficits. actually constituted an emergency. Did. that strike you as interesting also? >> Yeah, I was surprised by that. I do. think that.

there's a tendency to defer to the. president's judgments about the state of. the world that he's better situated than. nine people in robes to figure out what. is an emergency or not. They also didn't. much deal with another textual concept. because whatever he's authorized to do, it has to deal with the emergency. And. you know, Rachel, it's really not clear. that CARIS on Canada deals with the. fentinel crisis. It's also not clear.

that what can look like capricious and. mercurial impositions of tariffs and. then unimposing them the next day deal. with trade surpluses. So the court kind. of gave that spotted that to the. president and focused on the question of. did this statute authorize tariffs? Did. it give him this tool? But all of this was only one part of the. argument. [music].

The justices also thought that some. really significant hurdles stood in the. way of President Trump and some of the. justices on the right side of the court. were quite skeptical [music] that the. president could overcome those hurdles. [music]. We'll be right back. So, Adam, before the break, you told us. that some of the justices were quite.

skeptical that the administration would. be able to overcome some other major. hurdles in order to keep their tariff. authority. Walk us through what those. hurdles are. >> So, the most significant one, and you're. right to call it major, is the major. questions doctrine, which is a kind of. principle of statutory interpretation. It has been around for a couple of. decades, although it's really quite. recent that the court has started to.

refer to it by name. And what it says. is that if the executive branch. wants to do something really big, Congress has to authorize. that really big move in plain direct. language. So, we were talking in the. first half, Rachel, about whether you. could tease out of the words regulate.

importation, authorization of tariffs. Even if you could, there's this separate. hurdle that says if we're talking about. things of vast economic consequence, the major questions doctrine kicks in. and you're required to the executive. branch is required to show that Congress. really meant it, that it wasn't a kind. of inference from words in the statute.

that were 20 words apart. Justice Scalia. used to say. Congress doesn't hide elephants in mouse. holes. It needs to say so directly. >> In other words, even if the justices. ruled that the word regulate includes. tariff authority, there's this whole. separate question of did Congress. actually tell the president that he. could use this power? >> Right? I mean, if we were talking about. a tariff for $20,000. about some perfectly routine thing, that.

that's one thing. But the major. questions doctrine says if it involves. vast economic consequences, this. different rule is triggered. And there's. really no question but that these. tariffs. could hardly be bigger economically. Now, the Supreme Court used the major. questions doctrine repeatedly to reject. Biden administration initiatives on. COVID, on student loans, and on climate.

change. When the court rejected the. Biden administration's student loan. plan, they said, "This is $400 billion. That's a staggering sum of money." Well, the sums of money involved here, according to the administration, will. easily go into the trillions, and that. sure would seem to suggest that the. major questions doctrine plays a role. here.

>> Council, um, some time ago, you. dismissed the applicability of the major. questions doctrine, and I I want want. you to explain that a little bit more. I. mean it's. >> so Chief Justice Roberts invokes the. major questions doctrine directly early. in the argument. >> You have a claim source an AIPA that had. never before been used to justify. tariffs. Uh no one has argued that it. does um until this this particular case. And he asked the government's lawyer how.

it can be that a statute that doesn't. name tariffs, that's never been used in. its 50-year history to justify tariffs. and that's being used uh for a power to. impose tariffs on any product from any. country for any length of time satisfies. the major questions doctrine. about it. The justification is being used for a. power to uh impose tariffs on uh any. product uh from any country uh for in.

any amount for any length of time. That. seems like I'm not suggesting it's not. there, but it does seem like that's. major authority and the basis for the. claim seems to be a misfit. So why. doesn't it apply again? >> And what does the government's lawyer. say to that kind of questioning? Well, we agree that it's a major power, but. it's in the context of a statute that is. explicitly conferring major powers. That. the point of the. >> government's lawyer says first and not. entirely persuasively.

that AIPA is the kind of plain direct. language that you need to satisfy the. major questions doctrine. Uh but his. backup argument is his better one. probably. He says. >> as to that point I believe uh uh uh. [clears throat and groaning] uh the. court has never applied the major. questions doctrine in the foreign policy. context. >> The court has never applied the major. questions doctrine in the foreign policy. context. >> Why would it be the case that foreign. affairs would be exempt from the major. questions doctrine?

>> The idea would be that domestic taxation. is for Congress and if Congress wants to. delegate some of its authority perhaps. it can. But the president takes the. leading role in diplomacy and as. commanderin-chief. in looking after national security. So. the theory is that the constitution. gives congress power in one setting and. gives the president substantial power in. the other setting. >> And so I guess in this case the question. then becomes do tariffs actually count.

as foreign policy? Right. >> Yeah that's the question. We have never. applied it to foreign affairs, but this. is a tariff. This is a tax. >> It is a It is a. >> Justice Sotomayor says it. It's true. We've never applied it to foreign. affairs, >> but this is not foreign. This is a. tariff. This is a tax. I. >> I just don't understand this argument. Um it's not an article. It's a. congressional power, not a presidential. power to tax. And you want to say.

tariffs are not taxes, but that's. exactly what they are. The solicitor. general. >> arguing for the administration says no. >> it is a it is a if I may it's a. foreignfacing. regulation of foreign commerce that's a. regulatory system. >> this does seem to raise a genuinely. interesting question which is whether. tariffs are domestic policy or foreign. policy right like is it kind of hard to. disentangle a distinction between the. two. >> yeah it sure seems to be some of each.

these are domestic businesses. paying domestic taxes. largely in aid of trying to bring. manufacturing back to the US. But of. course, they're also part of the. president's. diplomatic negotiations. to try to address. a drug crisis and a foreign balance of. trade. So, it's it's sum of each, right? And this distinction came up, you know,

throughout the argument. >> Um, if one of our major trading. partners, that's for example, China, uh, held a US citizen hostage, >> you had Justice Clarence Thomas asking a. hypothetical question. What if China. held a US citizen hostage? Uh could the. president short of embargoing or setting. quotas say the most effective way to. gain leverage is to impose a tariff for.

the purpose of uh leveraging his. position to uh recover our hostage. And. I think he meant for that to suggest. that the president should have available. to him all kinds of tools. >> to execute important national security. measures and protect American citizens. >> Seems worth noting though that tariffs. does not really seem like something you. would deploy to rescue a hostage. But go. on. >> I had the same idea, Rachel. Every. everyone wants the hostage out. But I.

think there are things much more. immediate than tariffs which the. president could use to achieve foreign. policy goals. Uh but be that as it may, the question from Justice Thomas did. indicate that at least some justices. thought that it was important to empower. the president to be assertive and nimble. in protecting the nation's interests. >> Justice Gorsuch. General, just a few questions following. up on the major questions discussions. you've had.

>> and then Justice Gorsuch in an extended. series of questions. and one in which he became quite. forceful. >> So, could Congress delegate to the. president the power to regulate commerce. with foreign nations as he sees fit, >> delay and collect duties as he sees fit? >> We we don't uh we don't assert that. here. That would be a much harder case. Now in 179. >> isn't that the logic of your of your. view though? >> I don't think so because we're doing. >> indicated deep skepticism that Congress.

can simply hand over to the president. important legislative powers. >> If that's true what would what would. prohibit Congress from just abdicating. all responsibility to regulate foreign. commerce for that matter declare war to. the president? >> Gorsuch says what if Congress decides. tomorrow we're tired of this legislating. business. We're just going to hand it. all off to the president. We'll let him. declare war. We'll let him uh impose. taxes. >> That's what I'm struggling and waiting. for. What's the reason to accept the.

notion that Congress can hand off the. power to declare war to the president? >> Well, we don't contend that again. That. would be. >> you do you say it's unreable. >> That is unacceptable. Justice Gorsuch. said. >> All right. So now you're admitting that. there is some non-delegation principle. at play here and therefore. >> there's a legal concept called the. non-legation doctrine which forbids the. legislature from handing over unlimited. legislative power to the president at. least without very detailed guidance. >> He's basically saying this is a slippery.

slope, right? >> Uh he's absolutely saying that and. >> you emphasize that Congress can always. take back its powers. You mentioned that. a couple of times. But don't we have a serious retrieval. problem here? Because. >> he went on to say that there's a problem. with that kind of turning over of. legislative authority to the executive. branch, which is Congress can never get. it back as a practical matter. >> That's the political process working. There was. >> it takes a super majority veto majority.

to get it back. >> because you need new legislation that. could overcome a presidential veto. And. no president is going to give back such. power once he or she has achieved it. >> over. The president's a one-way ratchet. toward the gradual but continual. accretion of power in the executive. branch and away from the people's. elected representatives. >> I disagree with that and it seems to fit. with the very broad conception the Trump. administration has of the power it.

claims Congress has seated to it. >> Raise the same issues. >> Okay. Thank you, General. You know, it feels worth pointing out. that this conversation we're having. about handing the executive branch power. and whether this is a slippery slope is. not happening in a vacuum. It's. happening at a time when the country is. in in the middle of a of a conversation. basically about whether President Trump. is seizing too much power in the. executive branch in in all different. arenas. And so I just wonder if you feel.

like this particular discussion is. loaded or what kind of broader context. you Adam are applying to it. I think. those comments really did address. the current situation where we're seeing. a president who's trying to acrue. maximal power and the justices live in. the world. They're aware of that. And. Justice Gorsuch's comments really moved. the discussion.

from the parsing of the statute and how. to interpret the statute and whether the. major questions doctrine which is a. doctrine of statutory interpretation. applied or not to a constitutional. question of the proper relationship. between the two elected branches. and whether the court should tolerate. either. the president claiming or even Congress. agreeing to give the president power.

that ought to be reserved to Congress. >> And for all those reasons, we ask the. court to reverse both the decisions. below. Thank you, councel. The case is. submitted. >> And I guess I'd say that if the. administration has lost Neil Gorsuch, it. may well have lost the case. M. >> that you've heard skeptical questions. for sure from the chief justice, Justice. Barrett, Justice Gorsuch, the three. liberal justices. are sure to be voting against the. administration and this case is.

complicated, has a lot of moving pieces, is a rare jump ball in an era where the. court usually is quite predictable. Nonetheless, on the evidence of the oral. argument, these tariffs at least may. well not survive. >> And when can we expect a decision in. this case? >> The court has put this on a fast track. The administration has asked for really. quick treatment. They think even having. this case pending makes it harder for.

them to negotiate with uh their foreign. counterparts. So unlike most big cases. which don't come till June whenever. they're argued, I think it's quite. possible this case emerges in a month, 6. weeks quite fast by Supreme Court. standards. >> As we said in the beginning of the. conversation, President Trump's tariffs. are kind of a the signature of a second. administration. And so if the court did. not rule in his favor, that feels like a. hugely significant blow to his policy.

agenda. And the timing of these oral. arguments can't help but feel a bit. notable given that they came one day. after the Democrats had blowouts up and. down the ballots in all these different. states. And also this is all coming in. the midst of a recordbreaking government. shutdown. And so taken together this. week feels a little bit like a. referendum on the president's agenda in. some way. I mean, I know that these are. disconnected, but that's a bit how it. feels this week.

>> at the Supreme Court. It did feel like a. shift, an inflection point. And so, it's. notable. Two things are notable. One, that Trump would take this as a real. blow. He has said that a ruling against. him would be a cataclysm. It would. destroy the nation. and he has used the. most apocalyptic terms to describe what. such a ruling would be like. Uh even to. the point that some people thought he.

was trying to intimidate the court. But. two, and building off of that, if this. court, which has in recent months green. lit lots of Trump programs. on an emergency basis, provisionally, temporarily, but nonetheless, all sorts. of programs. If it stands up to. President Trump now, that will be a much. more assertive image for the Supreme. Court and the beginning of probably a.

real clash between the president and the. court. So we may be seeing really for the first. time in the second term the Supreme. Court saying hey we're a branch of the. government too and we have a role to. play and we are not going to accept in. every setting the efforts of a president. who seems committed [music] to acrewing. as much power as he possibly can at the. expense of the other branches.

>> [music]. >> Adam, thank you so much. >> Thank you, Rachel. [music]. [music]. We'll be right back. Here's.

what else you need to know today. The Trump administration announced on. Wednesday [music] that it would cut 10%. of air traffic in 40 of the nation's. busiest markets in a move that analysts. said would force airlines to cancel. thousands of flights while the. administration [music] tries to force. Democrats to end the government. shutdown. Transportation Secretary Shawn Duffy. [music] said the cancellations were an. attempt to quote alleviate the pressure. on air traffic controllers. They've not. been paid since mid-occtober.

Duffy said that the affected markets. would be announced on Thursday [music]. and the cuts would go into effect on. Friday. [music]. Today's episode was produced by Rob. Zipco, [music] Eric Krupkkey, and Nina. Feldman. It was edited by Devon Taylor. with help from Lisa Chow. Contains music. by Marian Lozano and Dan Powell, and was. engineered by Alyssa Moxley.

[music]. That's it for the Daily. I'm Rachel. Abrams. See you tomorrow.