Sunday Special: Elon Musk at 'DealBook'

hey it's Michael this weekend we're. bringing you something a little. different from our colleagues here at. the New York Times today an interview. with Elon Musk one of the most. consequential complicated and. controversial people of our time just a. few days ago musk sat down with business. columnist Andrew Ross sorin for an. interview before a live audience it's a. remarkable conversation sorin presses. musk on a recent public controversy but.

he also explores musk's ideas about a. variety of topics freedom of speech. technology optimism aliens and screen. time it was all part of a series of live. interviews put together by our. colleagues at dealbook with significant. leaders including vice president kamla. Harris and former house Speaker Kevin. McCarthy if you want to hear them all. you can listen on our nyt audio app or. search dealbook Summit wherever you get. your podcasts now here's Andrew rosin in.

conversation with Elon. [Music]. Musk my mind is often feels like a very. Wild Storm um is your storm a Happy. Storm. [Music]. no this is Andrew urin with the New York. Times and you're listening to the best. interviews from our annual dealbook.

Summit event recorded live yesterday in. New York. [Music]. City good evening everybody thank you so. much uh for being with us throughout the. day uh and I couldn't be uh more pleased. uh to sit with Elon Musk as our final. interview uh of uh this remarkable time. we've all had uh together he doesn't. need much of an introduction but I want.

to say a couple things um he's the. richest person in the world he may very. well be the most now most consequential. uh individual in the world right now uh. he runs the most Innovative companies in. the world Tesla SpaceX uh starlink which. is part of that neuralink the boring. company x uh and his uh uh x. aai um and. he's disrupted each of these Lanes uh. he's moved to break neck speeds but he's. faced a s of controversy in the process. uh he joins us to day following a visit.

as you all know so well we discussed. earlier on Monday to Israel where he met. uh with the Prime Minister there and the. president of Israel and we're going to. talk about everything and my hope is. that we can talk about how he thinks uh. about his influence about his power um. about all of it and we're going to talk. about Innovation and everything else um. I want to say just two other things real. quick uh we met each other for the first. time 16 years ago yeah a long time it's. been a long time and oldest kids were. three uh that when when when we first.

met I don't I think you just you're. about to deliver your first Roadster I. don't think you had yet Larry Page was. still waiting yeah like 2007 2007 2008 I. remember going back to The Newsroom and. saying I think I just met the next Steve. Jobs and um okay I'm going to hold to. that okay I'm GNA hold to that but a lot. has happened between when I first met. you and now uh you came to deal B been. boring that's for sure wait actually.

technically I do have a boring. company 2012 you came to dealbook and. sat on this stage uh and we're we're. we're thrilled to have you back but. there's been so much that's happened. between now and then and there's been so. much that's happened in the past week. week and a half and a lot of folks. called me up and said you really you. really going to host Elon Musk here can. you believe what he just said on on. Twitter on. what no idea what this Twitter thing she. keep talking about should you platform.

him that's what they said yeah should. you platform him and I said I think that. it's our role and I know you have issues. with journalist I have a platform um I. know you have an issue with journalists. often times but I said it's our role to. have conversations and to inquire and to. sometimes even interrogate ideas and. that's I'm hoping we can do that so I. want to start just so we can begin this. conversation and just level set take us. through everything that happened if you.

could everything no over the past week. and a half how long have you got we. we're going to we've got the time uh um. okay you send out a post or X or a tweet. I don't know what as I'm trying to. change like when things were just 140. characters it made sense to call them a. tweet because like a bunch of little BS. chopping but when you know point in. which you can put like three-hour videos. on it's like it's a very long tweet so. so here we are post is more descriptive. I think and at some point I don't know. where you.

were but you write in responding to. another tweet yes um this is the actual. truth and it set off a firestorm of. criticism all the way to the White House. right and then you make this trip to. Israel you have advertisers whove left. the platform people calling well the the. trip to Israel is independent of of it. wasn't something like a apology to her I. want to be clear that was okay well. let's talk about that so just but just. take us back to the moment at which you.

write that Israel is independent of it. wasn't like in response to that at all. well let's do we'll do Israel in just a. moment and I I I have no problem being. hated by the. way I hear you hate. away well but you know what let's go. straight to that then for a second sure. because there is an idea and you could. say that I think a real weakness to one. to be liked a real weakness and I I do. not have that let me ask you this then.

there's a difference between saying I. don't care if anyone likes me or they. hate me but given your power and given. what you have amassed and the importance. you. have I would think you want to be. trusted I would think maybe you don't. need to be liked or hated but trusted. matters if if x is going to become a. financial platform where people going to. put their money where people where where. the government's going to give you money. for Rockets where people are going to. get into the cars they need to. ultimately decide.

that you are they don't have to say that. they they love you but that you are. ultimately a decent and good human being. yes I mean I I think I am um but I'm. certainly not going to uh do some sort. of tap dance to prove to people that I. am as as for trust I mean I think we. break that down in a few ways if you. want satellites sent to orbit reliably. uh SpaceX will do 80% of all Mass to. orbit this year China will do 12% the. rest of the world will do eight that. includes Boeing lock Heat and everyone. else so the track record of the rocket.

uh is the best by far of anything you. you could you could hate my guts next. you could not trust me it is relevant. the rocket track record speaks for. itself uh with respect to Tesla we make. the best cars whether you height you're. hate me like me or or indifferent uh do. you want the best car or do you not want. the best car um. so so I will certainly not Pander the. and and Jonathan like the only reason.

I'm here is because you are a. friend like what was my speaking fee of. all I'm Andrew but uh yeah sorry it's. okay uh second of all we've known each. other for a very long time spoken. um yes and um listen you. know uh what I'm trying to illustrate is. that sometimes I say the wrong. thing.

I think there are a lot of people who. are tired but let me let let me go back. um no no you should hear the sketches. that SNL wouldn't post by the way those. are really. good um and I would say unfortunately or. fortunately or unfortunately whatever. friendship we have not great we don't. talk to other that that much but let me. ask you this it's true that's true where. am I. doesn't the point is I'm I'm here. because you're you're a friend not. because uh I'm get PID or because I need. any validation or anything and I promise.

you I'd be here and that's why I'm here. well I appreciate you being here for any. other reason but let me ask you this. this then you you write this tweet that. says that this is the actual truth. people read that tweet yes and they say. Elon Musk is an anti-semite that he's. riling up this base you're hearing it. from as I said the White House you're. hearing it from Jewish groups all over I. think Jonathan greenblat from the ADL is. here U there's there's lots of people. who say this and by the way it's not. just that did you read the whole thing I.

did and that's why I want to ask. responses excuse me I said more than. what you just read yes no there was ABS. there was absolutely more yes but I'll. tell you the thing that struck me it. wasn't um and I'm an American Jew it. wasn't just the people who who had that. view it was actually people who really. are anti-semites who said oh my goodness. go Elon this is fabulous and that. actually was the thing that really. really set me back and I said to myself. what's going on here. and I want to know how you felt about.

that in that moment when you when you. saw all of this. happening yeah um well first of all I I. did clarify almost immediately uh what I. meant I would say that that was um you. know if I could go back and say I should. in retrospect um not have replied to. that particular person and I should have. uh written in Greater length as to what. I metant I did subsequently clarified in. replies uh but those clarifications were. ignored by the media and essentially I.

handed a loaded gun to those who hate me. um and arguably to those who are. antisemitic for that I'm quite sorry. that that is not that was not my. intention um so I I did you know post on. my primary timeline to be absolutely. clear that I'm not anti-semitic um and. that I in fact if anything am. philosemitic um and the trip to Israel. was planned before any of that happened. uh it was neither here nor there. do you see see this thing M do you know.

what it is I do because I actually. followed your entire trip to Israel. right why don't you tell. everybody this is this. says says bring them. home the. hostages it was given to me by the. parents of of one of the. hostages and I said I would wear it as. as long as there was a hostage St. remaining and I have.

um what was that trip like and obviously. you know that there's a public. perception that that was part of a. apology tour if you will that this had. been said online there was all of the. criticism there was advertisers leaving. we talked to Bob Iger I hope they stop. you hope uh don't advertise you don't. want them to advertise no what do you. mean if somebody's going to try to. Blackmail me with advertising blackmail. me with money go yourself.

but go. yourself is that. clear I hope it is hey Bob you're here. in the audience well well let me ask you. then that's how I feel don't. advertise how do you think then about. the economics of ofx If part of the. underlying model at least today and. maybe it needs to shift maybe the answer. is it needs to shift away from. advertising if if you believe that this.

is the one part of your business where. you will be beholden to those who have. this. view what do you do. FY I I I understand that but there's a. reality. too. right yes no no Linda Yaro is right here. and she's got to sell advertising. absolutely so um no no toally so so what. no actually what what does advertis. boycott is uh is is going to do it's.

going to kill the. company and do you think that the I but. and the whole world will know that those. advertisers killed the company and we. will document it in great. detail but there are those advertisers I. imagine are going to say they're going. to say we didn't kill the company oh. yeah they're going to say tell to tell. to Earth but they're going to say that. they're going to say Elon that you. killed the company because you said. these things and that they were. inappropriate things and they didn't. feel comfortable on the platform right.

that's that's what they're going to say. and let's see how Earth responds to. that so okay this then this goes back to. we we'll both make our cases right and. we'll see what the outcome is what are. the economics of that for you I mean you. you have enormous resources so you can. actually keep this company going for a. very long time would you keep it going. for a long time if there was no. advertising I mean if the company fails. because of an ad advertised boycott it. will fail because of an advertis boycott. and that will be what bankrupt the.

company and that's what all everybody on. Earth will. know what do you think then of the go. back to the idea of trust though then. it'll be gone and it'll be gone because. of an advertised. boycott but but you recognize that some. of those people are going to say that. they didn't feel comfortable on the. platform and I I wonder I just wonder. and ask you and think about that for a. second tell to the judge but the but the. judge is going to be the judge is the. public and you think that the public is. going to say that that Disney is making.

a. mistake yes and they're going to boycott. Disney they already are well there are. some that are for lots of different. reasons but you think that this is going. to that you have the this goes to. actually the interesting of of power and. leverage let the chips fall where they. may let the chips fall where they may. can I ask what why that is the approach. and I ask it because you've been. approach well you've been very. particular about the I mean the approach. to Tesla uh when you think about the.

engineering involved in that the. approach to SpaceX the approach to um. some of the stuff you're doing with AI. has been very specific right there's not. a let let the chips fall where they may. approach to those businesses I don't. think no we focus on making the best. products and and and Tesla has gotten to. where it's gotten with no advertising at. all I understand that Tesla currently. sells two twice as much uh in terms of. electric vehicles as the rest of. electric car makers in United States.

combined Tesla has done more to help the. environment than all other companies. combined would be fair to say that. therefore as a leader of the company. I've done more for the environment than. any single human on earth how do you. feel about. that feel about that yeah no I'm I'm. asking you personally how you feel about. that because this goes we were talking. about power and influence and I'm say. I'm saying what what I care about is the. the reality of goodness not the. perception of it and what I see all over. the place is people who care about.

looking good while doing evil F. them. okay let me ask you this because I think. part of this by the way there's some. people who said look owning X to begin. with has just created problems that. you've created so many amazing things. that are changing our world and and I. know you want to uh make X this fabulous. Town Square Free Speech platform but. that unto itself that that has created. such a distraction of all of these. things this is the conversation we're.

having we're not focus or not talking at. least yet and we will on Tesla you have. your cyber truck deliveries tomorrow and. everything else that you're doing but it. would be the biggest product launch of. anything by far on Earth this year is is. there any part of you though that just. says you know what I just shouldn't have. done this or maybe I should sell it or. give it away or do something else w w. with with the X piece of it yeah given. the propensity for some of the things. that you do and say on platform to.

create these these. issues. yeah of all the posts I I've done on the. platform I think there might be 30,000. or something like that right once in a. while I will say something. foolish and I have and I would certainly. put that comment um that you said the. actual truth uh in among perhaps one of.

the most foolish if not the most foolish. thing I've ever done on the platform and. and I did do my best to clarify. afterwards that uh I I certainly did not. mean anything anti-semitic in that um. the the nature of the criticism was. simply that the Jewish people have been. persecuted for thousands of years there. is a natural Affinity therefore uh for. persecuted groups this has led to the. funding of organizations that. essentially promote any persecuted group.

or any group with the perception of. persecution this includes radical. Islamic. groups everyone here has seen the the. massive demonstrations for Hamas in. every major city in the. west that should be. jarring well a number of those. organizations received funding from. prominent people in the Jewish Community. they didn't expect that to happen it it.

but but if you. generically without condition if you. find persecuted groups in. general some of those persecuted groups. unfortunately want your. Annihilation and what I what I meant by. that when I subsequently clarify it is. is that it's unwise to fund. organizations that support groups that. want your. annihilation is this coming across.

clearly at my my question to you though. is I think logically this is makes a lot. of sense is there any part of you I mean. just tell me what happens though when. once all this happens let's say you. found a group and that group supports a. mass who wants you to die perhaps you. should not find them. right but you but you. do thank. you you you do appreciate that when you. weit into these very delicate Waters at. these very delicate times yes that it.

can create a real I mean as it created. headlines for the past two weeks and and. economic. impact what what I'm just so curious. what H in your brain when you see all. this happening are you sitting there. going oh my God I stepped in it I wish I. didn't do that are you saying screw them. I hate these people why are they after. me but all of. that yeah all of that I mean uh. I mean look I'm sorry for that tweet or.

post it was foolish of me of the 30,000. it might be literally the worst and. dumbest post that I've ever done and I. tried my best to clarify six ways this. Sunday um but you know at least uh I. think over time it will be obvious that. in fact far from being anti-semitic I'm. in fact philosemitic um and my all the. evidence uh in my track record would. support that there are people who say. crazy things on on X as you know. um maybe you think they're crazy maybe.

they're not the the aspiration for X is. to be the global Town Square now if you. were to walk down to let's say Time. Square do you occasionally hear people. saying crazy things yes but they're not. they don't have the megaphone right and. that's that's the conundrum they can. only say it to the 50 or 100 people that. are that are sitting standing there in. Time Square look the the joke I used to. make about old Twitter was it was like. giving everyone in the py w a megaphone. um so uh you know I'm I'm I'm aware that.

things can get promoted uh that are. negative beyond the sort of Circle of of. somebody simply screaming crazy things. in Time Square which happens all the. time um it's pretty rare for something. um frankly that is uh hateful to be. promoted it's not it's not it's not that. it never happens um but it's fairly rare. um I mean I would encourage people to. look at for those that use the system. when you look at the feed that you.

receive how often is it is it hateful. and over time has it gotten more or less. hateful and I would say that if you look. at uh the xplatform today versus a year. ago I think it is actually much better I. mean what is your personal expence are. you surprised I'm just curious you use. this I use the platform uh religiously I. I ad to being an addict and I use the. for you and I will I will say now the. the problem is because I'm a journalist.

I go looking for stuff well that's I'm. just saying and and and because I and. and I I also think the algorithm for me. personally because I'm looking for self. also is feeding me other things well. this this this is actually a challenge. in that like sometimes people will say. like why is it showing. me you know a post from this person that. I hate and then we were like well did. you interact a lot with this person that. you hate well yes well therefore thinks. that you want to interact more with this.

person that you hate that's like a. reasonable you know you kind of want to. have an argum you tweet yeah do you ever. or post let's say post when you post. listen I'm open if anyone can come up. with a better word uh that would be. great when you post though but uh the. least bad word I can think of is post. when you post though do you are you. trying to rile up either a base or an. audience do you do you do you recog ize. the power you have in that and and also.

by the way not just rile up but also. rile down which is to say as I said. there are people who are demonstrably. anti-semitic on on the site who I I get. Jew boy things and all sorts of things. that come my way hey for a while they. thought I was Jewish so they would you. know I'd get it too but but but no but. the question is my is super do you ever. think to yourself you know what I'm. going to go online and I'm going to say. these people I condemn these people that. are on my site saying these things I. have you say anti-Semitism but do you. ever go yeah I said I I literally I.

literally posted I condemn anti-Semitism. in all its forms like that is a literal. I believe literal post that I made um I. mean I'm like listen if I can get out. the thesaurus if you you know and we. could you know let me ask you a. different question you you you you. compose it I'll post it okay let me ask. you this um you um you were on a you. were on a podcast uh about a month ago. and you said something that that struck. me um and it struck me as accurate came.

out of your mouth so uh hopefully it is. but it I'm hoping we go deep on this. just because it came out of my mouth. does not mean it's true but you said you. said my you said my mind is a. storm I don't think most people would. want to be me they may think they want. to be me but they don't know they don't. understand what did you mean by that. what was what your mind being a storm. and I I think it I mean I have known you. for quite some time I think it is a bit.

of a. storm. yes. um yeah I mean I in as much as a a. weather metaphor makes sense. um my mind is often feels like a like a. like a very Wild Storm um I mean I have. I have a fountain of ideas I mean I have. more ideas than I can possibly execute. um so I have no shortage of ideas. Innovation is not not the problem. execution is the problem I've got a. million ideas is I mean I've got an. entire design for an electric supersonic.

vertical takeoff jet but I I mean I just. if I I just can't do that as well I've. had that for 10 years. um um I there a million things is your. storm a Happy. Storm no it's not a Happy Storm. no tell us about that cuz I I think that. that actually when people try to really. understand you I think that there's a. lot of this comes from some other place.

and I I want to talk about that what do. you think that. is we we need like a psychiatrist couch. here or something. um I you know I I think to some degree I. was going this way but and then it was. Amplified by a difficult childhood.

frankly um. so uh but I can remember even in happy. moments when I was a kid that there's. just it just feels like there's just. a a rage of forces in my mind. constantly um now this you know. productively manifests itself. in technology and Building Things uh for. the most part. so and and I think on.

balance the output has been very. productive um I think the results as we. you know discussed earlier with SpaceX. Tesla PayPal which is you know still. going today. um the uh first internet company that I. started in fact the first internet. company I started of two was. um uh funded by New York Times company h. night rter and in uh we wrote some of.

the software for the the New York Times. website um and we helped bring online. several hundred uh newspapers that. previously were only in print um now. this is in the '90s which at this point. is like I'm like a grandpa PL basically. um you know the '90s and internet feels. like a pre-cambrian era when there were. only. sponges um so. um anyway so you know I feel like a lot.

of productive things have been done and. you can also look at Tesla as being sort. many companies in one like our. supercharging network is if it. were if if the T supercharging Network. where its own company it would be a. Fortune 500 company by itself just just. just the supercharging. system um we also make the cells we we. we build the power electronics and the. power train from scratch um we have the.

most Innovative uh structural design the. larest castings ever used um we have the. the best manufacturing technology at. Tesla better manufacturing technology. than companies that have been doing it. for 100 years so so these these Demons. of the. mind you know are for the most part uh. harnessed to productive ends um let me. ask that doesn't mean that once in a. while that. you.

know go. wrong but but and this is a question I. think a lot of people you know are. always trying to figure out about not. just you but sometimes themselves. meaning what is driving all this you're. doing all of these things do you think. it's it do you think that you would be. as successful whatever success. is if it wasn't being driven by some I. think that there's something you're. trying to prove either to yourself or to. somebody I don't know we're all trying. to prove trying to prove it to my mother.

I don't. know no if I were to describe my My. Philosophy it is a philosophy of. curiosity. um. um I mean I I did have this existential. crisis when I was uh around 12 uh about. what's the meaning of life isn't it old. pointless why not just commit suicide. why. exist um um I read the religious texts.

um I read the philosophy books um that. especially the German philosophy books. made me quite depressed frankly once. should not read chenhow n as a teenager. um but then I read uh Douglas Adams H. Guide to the Galaxy which is a book on. philosophy in the form of humor and the. point that Adams was making there was. that uh. we don't actually know what questions to.

ask um that's why I said you know the. answer is 42 like basically Earth a. giant computer and and it came up with. the answer 42 but then to actually. figure out what the question is that's. the actual hard part um and I think this. is generally true also in physics at the. point of which you can uh properly frame. the question the answer is is actually. the easy part um. so so so. my motivation then was that well my life.

is finite really a flash in the pan on a. galactic time scale uh. but if we can expand the scope and scale. of. Consciousness then we are better able. to figure out what questions to ask. about the answer that is the. universe and maybe we can find out the. meaning of life or even work question to. what what the right question to ask is.

um you know where do we come from where. are we going um where are the aliens are. there aliens. um and you know these these. questions you know and is there new. physics to discover uh or is this. because seems to be some real questions. about dark matter and dark energy and um. so the purpose of space Act is to extend. life beyond Earth on a sustained basis.

so that we can at least pass one of the. firmy great filters uh which is that of. being a single planet civilization um if. we are a single planet civilization then. we are simply waiting around. for some Extinction event whether that. is man-made or uh natural um but if. you're a single planet civilization. eventually you will uh that something. will happen to that planet and you will.

die if you're a multiplet civilization. you will live much longer also a. multiplet civilization is that's the. natural stepping stone to being a multi-. stellar civilization and being out there. Among the Stars so now this I think has. two this this is not simply a defensive. uh. motivation um but it is also one that. you know that gives meaning man search. for meaning. ask let me finish this philosophy Point.

even though it may seem rather esoteric. um it may resonate with a few people um. we must get past this firmy filter of. being a a this great filter of being a. single planet. civilization um and if we do that we are. more likely to understand the nature of. the universe and what questions to ask. um if you're believer in. the philosophy of curiosity then then I. think you should support this. ambition um and but but it's more.

there's being a multiplan species is. more than than. simply you know life in life insurance. for Life collectively that's a defensive. reason but but but I think also that. that that life has to be more than. simply solving one sad problem after. another you know there have to be there. have to be reasons where you wake up in. the morning and you're happy to be. alive there have to be reasons that you.

you have to say why are you excited. about the future like what gives you. hope and and and if you if you if you're. aren't sure ask your. kids and and and I think the idea of us. being a space fairing civilization and. being out there Among the. Stars is incredibly. inspiring um and exciting and something. to look forward. to and there need to be such things in. the.

world let me ask you a different. question about confidence we were having. a conversation here earlier but people. um and where your where people get their. Confidence from some people have great. insecurity other people uh have great. confidence and I was thinking about you. because you have a very interesting. history where people have told you over. and over again that you're. wrong well sometimes they right well. sometimes they are but I would say that.

when it comes to Tesla when it came to. SpaceX people told you that you were. crazy you were out of your mind this was. never going to happen this was never. going to work and so ask you this though. is now when people say you're. wrong this isn't right do you look at. that and say you know what that's like a. red flag for me because you know I've. been told so often that I'm wrong. that I know that I and I know I'm right.

because I've had that. experience or are there people in your. life when they say you know what Elon. this is not this is not right do you. know what I'm. saying um I mean I think what you start. trying to say is that uh do I at this. point think because uh I've been right. so many times when others have said I'm. wrong that now I pass believe I'm right. when in fact I'm wrong you do very. well what do you think no I'm right.

um so uh yeah no look here's the thing. um physics is UN unforgiving physics is. unforgiving so. uh I mean I have you know these various. little sayings I've come up with uh that. physics is the law and everything else. is a recommendation right uh in the. sense that uh you can break any law made. by humans but try break a law made by. physics that's much more difficult um so.

if you are wrong and persist in being. wrong the Rockets will blow up and the. cars will. fail um. so this is not we're not trying to. figure out what what flavor of ice cream. is the best flavor of ice. cream like if there's a thousand things. that can happen on in a rocket flight. and only one of them gets the rocket to. orbit. and so being wrong results in.

Failure uh when dealing with physical uh. objects but that's the interesting part. so now you've built this these great. companies that physically the physics of. them are enormously successful so. successful arguably that you have. leverage over everybody else right. there's nobody else can do starlink. nobody else can get I I nobody else can. get the rockets in in space yet Amazon. and Jeff basos are trying but they. haven't yet I hope he does you hope he. does yeah yeah um I mean I think you.

know uh I I actually agree with with. with lot Jeff's motivations um I mean I. think you know he's you know and I so. I'm let me put let me put this way if if. there was a button I could press that. would delete uh blue aren I wouldn't. press it um so I think uh it's good that. he's spending money on on um making. Rockets too um you know I just perhaps. you spend more time on it but uh you. know it's up to him uh the the uh but I.

should make a point here so nothing. nothing any of my companies have done. has been to stifle competition in fact. we've done the opposite so at Tesla we. have open sourced our patents anyone can. use our patents for free how many. companies do you know who've done. that can you name one. I can't um at SpaceX we don't use.

patents so I mean said once in a while. we'll we'll file a patent just so some. patent trol doesn't cause trouble. but we're not stopping any we've done. we've done nothing anti-competitive. we've done nothing to stop our just you. at all I I I I just want to clarify for. the audience because some companies have. done done anti-competitive things I I. think the strange thing or the unusual. thing about SpaceX and Tesla is that. we've done things that have helped our.

competition so at Tesla we um have made. our supercharger system Open Access we. we've we we we' made our charger. technology available for free to the. other. manufacturers the reason I no wall of. garden we could have put a wall up but. instead we invited them in the reason I. mentioned this though is because you've. had the success in the physical physics. world. you now have these very uh difficult. decisions that have huge impacts on the.

world that are not physical decisions at. all they're they're decisions of the. mind they're decisions that you and. others have to make and there's a. question whether you should be making. these decisions at all and I I think. about it in the context of starlink uh. obviously there was the report about uh. how it's being used in Ukraine and in. the Russia War there's questions about. what you know Taiwan whether Taiwan. should use it or will use it I believe. they're not right now because they're. worried that some point maybe the. Chinese will tell you that you have to.

uh they have leverage over you and. you're going to have to turn that off. right I mean these are these are very. difficult decisions and I'm so curious. how you think about that and not just. the decisions the fact that you have. that. power I I just I think it's important. for the audience to understand that the. reason I have these Powers not because. of some anti-competitive actions it's. simply because we've executed very well. oh I'm not dismissing that I think there. are so many people by the way who are. huge supporters of what you cre satelles. out there you know but but they're and. but they're not as good as yours and the.

same and we can say that maybe make the. same argument out cars and everything. else but as a result that gives you. enormous. leverage right with the exception of the. by the way these advertisers who aren't. on X in every other instance everybody. needs. you I mean nobody's that use our product. if it's better than use somebody else's. product if it's the other products. better and I accept that and maybe one. day somebody else create better products. like you know how is it a bad thing to. make better products than other.

companies well and I I want to go back. to this to the starlink piece of it. though because it that has sort of a Geo. geopolitical ramification in terms of. your power and how you think about that. specific power and then uh the power. that the US government might have either. over you or Not Over You the power the. Chinese government might have over you. or not over you and how those things get. used. I mean what are you suggesting I I'm I'm. I'm asking the question around this this.

very idea of how these satellites are. going to be used whether you think that. you should have control of them whether. the government should have control of. them trust the. government well that's there's a lot of. people who don't trust the government no. exactly but then this goes back to the. trust of you right I mean like you said. we're not the only company who has. communication satellites that our. satellites are just. much better than theirs so it's not like.

we have a. monopoly do you feel like anybody. product it's not like do you feel. anybody has leverage over. you I mean I think at the end of the day. if we make bad products that people. don't want to use. then the users will vote with their. resources and use something. else let me pivot the conversation for a. second I mean certainly I mean my. company's overseen by regulators and and.

while um you know once. since SpaceX starlink. Tesla um are overseen by you know. cumulatively over 100 Regulators uh and. and actually more than that few hundred. Regulators uh because you got we're in. 55 countries um if if you sum up all the. the times that I had an argument with. Regulators of hundreds of regulators.

over decades it it can sound really. terrible except but they forgot to. mention that there were 10 million. regulations we complied with and only. five that I disagreed with but they L. all the five and it sounds like wow this. guy's a real Maverick I'm like yeah but. what about the 10 million we complied. with do you let me let me one one. related thing on this and The Leverage. of countries and things over you and. regul ERS um X is this free speech. platform you do business in China lots.

of business in China that's an important. part of your your business I imagine uh. well that's. facex how do you think about the. leverage that the Chinese have over you. and do they have leverage over you and. how do you feel about some people would. say is it hypocritical uh for you to be. doing business in China or frankly in. other countries as it relates to X and. other things that don't follow this free. speech path that you have.

espoused the best that the xplatform can. do is adhere to the laws of Any Given. country do you think there's something. more we could do than that I think it. would be very hard but I just wonder. given the sort of strong philosophical. approach that you've you've you've. you've been vocal about whether you say. to yourself you know maybe I shouldn't. be doing business in that. country uh well first of all start and. SpaceX do are no business in China. whatsoever um Tesla has one of four.

factories four vehicle factories in. China um and China is you know I don't. know a quarter of our Market or. something like that uh so it's a quarter. of the market of one company um the same. is true by the way of of all the other. car companies uh they also have. something on that order of quarter of. their sales in in China um so if you if. that's a problem for Tesla it's a. problem for every car company. um I mean I think one has to be careful. about not conflating uh the various.

companies. because I can only do things that are. within the bounds of the law I cannot do. beyond that um my aspiration is to do as. much good as possible and to be as. productive as possible within the bounds. of what is. legal more than that I cannot. [Music]. do we'll be right. back. [Music].

um I want to Pivot and talk about AI for. a moment we had Jensen Wong here who's. uh a big fan of yours as you know yeah. Jensen's awesome talk about talked about. bringing you the first box by the way. with Ilia uh interestingly enough yes. back in 2016 I think there's a video of. Jensen uh and me unpacking the first AI. computer at open. AI so I'm so curious what you think of. what's just happened over the past two.

weeks while you were dealing with this. other uh uh headline series of headlines. there was a whole other series of. headlines at open AI what did you. think well you founded it co-founded. co-founded it yeah. um well well the the whole Arc of open. eye frankly is a little troubling. because. the the reason for starting open AI was. to create a counter counterweight to uh.

Google Google and deep mind which at the. time had 2third of all AI talent and. basically infinite money and compute and. there was no there was no counterweight. it was unipolar world and Larry and. Paige and I used to be very close. friends and I would stay at his house. and I would talk to Larry into late. hours of the night about AI safety um. and I became a parent to me that. Larry did not care about AI safety um I.

think perhaps the thing that gave it. away was when he called me a speciest uh. for being pro Humanity um as in you know. like a racist but po species um so I'm. like wait a second uh what side are you. on Larry. um and I'm like okay listen this guy's. calling me a specious he doesn't care. about AI. safety um we've got to have some. Counterpoint here because this seems. like we could be this is this this is no.

good so open AI was actually started and. it was meant to be open source uh I. named it open AI um after open source um. it is in fact closed Source super it. should be it should be name renamed. super closed source for maximum profit. AI. um so because this is what it actually. is. I mean fate loves irony I. mean in fact friend of mine has this.

says like the way to predict outcomes is. the most ironic outcome is the most it's. like this aams Razer like the simplest. sort of explanation is most likely and U. my friend Jon's view is that the most. ironic outcome is the most likely and. that's what happened with open AI um. it's it's gone from an open- Source uh. Foundation a 5123 to Suddenly It's like. a 90 billion for-profit Corporation with. close source so I don't know how you go. from here to there but that seems like a.

I don't know how you get I don't know if. is this. legal like legal so but so as you saw. Sam wman get ousted Yeah by somebody you. know Ilia and Elia was somebody was a. friend of yours yes you brought him. there uh your relationship with Larry. Page effectively broke down over you. recruiting him away I think that's. correct that was the fight that was the. Larry refused to be friends with me. after I to Ilia and so here's Ilia. apparently saying something is very.

wrong I think we should be concerned. about this because I think Ilia actually. has a strong moral compass um he thinks. about he you know he he really sweats it. over questions of what is right um and. if Ilia felt strongly enough. to want to you know fire Sam well I. think the world should know what was. that reason have you talked to him. I've reached out but he he doesn't want. to talk to anyone have you talked to.

other people behind the scenes is this. all. happening I talked to a lot of. people as. nobody I've not found anyone who knows. why have have you I think we are all. still trying to find out I mean look one. of two things is is either it was a. serious thing and we should know what it. is or it was not a serious thing and and. then the board should resign. what do you think of Sam. Alman I have mixed feelings about.

Sam I I do. um you know the the ring of. power you know can corrupt. um and this is the ring of power. so you know I don't know I think I want. to know why Ilia felt so strongly as saf. fire Sam this sounds like a serious.

thing I I don't think it was. trivial and I'm quite concerned that. this that there's some you know. dangerous element of AI that they've. they've discovered yes you think they've. discovered something that would be my. guess where are you with your own AI. efforts relative to where you think open. AI is where you think Google. is where you think the others.

are I mean on the AI front him in. somewhat of a quandry here. because um I've thought AI could be. something that would change the world in. a significant way since I was in college. I mean like 30 years ago um now the. reason I didn't go bu AI right from the. get-go was because I was uncertain about. which which edge of the double edge. sword would would be sharper the good. Edge or the bad.

Edge so I held off on doing anything on. AI could have created I think leading AI. company and kind of open AI actually. kind of is that. um because I was just uncertain if you. make this magic Genie what will. happen um you know whereas I. think building sustainable energy. technology is much more of a. single-edged sword that is single-edged. good. making life multiplanetary I think. single-edged. good.

um you know stalling mostly single-edged. good I mean giving people better. connectivity to people that you know. don't don't have connectivity or too. expensive I think is very you know very. much a good thing um Sonic was. instrumental by the way in halting the. Russian advance and the ukrainians said. so um so you know I think is but with AI. you you've got the magic.

Genie problem um you may think you want. a magic. Genie but once you that Genie is out of. the bottle it's hard to say what happens. how far are we away from that Genie. being out of the bottle you think you. think it's already. out I me the genie is certainly poking. its head. out. um AGI the idea of artificial general. intelligence given what you now are. working on yourself and you know how. easy or hard it is to train to create.

the inferences to create the weights I. hope I'm not getting too far in the. weeds of just how this works but those. are the basics behind the software end. of. this it's funny you know all these. weights uh they're just basically. numbers in a comma separated value file. and that's how digital God a CSP. file not that funny. um uh but that's kind of literally what.

it is. so I I think it's coming pretty fast you. know that I mean uh you you you you. famously have admitted to overstating. how quickly things will happen but how. quickly do you think this will. happen if you say smarter than the. smartest human at anything yep it may. not be then quite smarter than all. humans all machine augmented humans you.

know because people got computers and. stuff um there a higher bar but you say. smer than any you know can write as good. a novel as say JK rling or discover new. physics or invent new. technology um I would say that we are. less than three years from that. point um let me ask you a question about. uh xai and what you're doing and um. because there's an interesting thing. that's different I think about what you. have relative to somebody others which.

is you have data you have information. you have all of the stuff that everybody. in here has put on the platform to sort. through um and I don't know if everybody. realized that. initially what is the value of. that yeah I mean data is very important. um you could say data is probably more. valuable than.

gold um but then maybe you have actually. maybe you have more maybe you have the. gold in X in a different way in a way. again that I I that I don't know if the. public appreciates what that. means yes um X is the might be the. single best source of. data. um I mean it is uh they're. more you know people links that go to. people click on more links to X than. anything else on Earth sometimes people.

think Facebook or Instagram is a bigger. thing but actually there are more links. to X than anything you can there's. public information you can Google it. okay let me ask you a um so it it is it. is uh where you would find what is. happening right now on Earth at any. given point in time the whole open a. drama played out in fact on the. xplatform um so it is one of the it's. not there you know Google certainly has. a massive amount of data so does. Microsoft.

um so it's not like but but it is one of. the best sources of data. um can I ask you an interesting IP issue. which I think is actually something uh I. can say as somebody who's in the Creator. business and journalistic business and. and whatnot uh where care about. copyright. so one of the things about training on. data has been this idea that you're not. going to train or or these things are. not being trained on people's. copyrighted information historically.

that's been the concept yeah that's a. huge lie say that again yes these AI. well these AI are all trained on. copyrighted data obviously so you think. it's a lie when when open AI says that. this is not none of these guys say. they're training on copyrighted dat. that's that's a lie it's a lie straight. up a straight up lie okay 100 obviously. it's been trained on proped data okay so. let me ask the second question. which is all of the people who have been. uploading like one every minute all of.

the people who have been uploading. articles the best quotes from different. articles uh videos. 2x all of that can be trained on and. it's interesting because people put all. of that there um and those quotes have. historically been considered fair use. right people are putting those quotes up. there and individually on a fair use. basis you'd say okay that makes sense. but now there are people who do threads. and by the way there may be multiple. people who've done you know an article.

that has a thousand words technically. all thousand words could have made it on. to X. somehow and effectively now you have. this remarkable repository and I wonder. what you how you think about that again. and how you think the creative community. and those who were the original Ip. owners should think about. that I don't know except to say that by. the time these law suits are decided. will have digital God so actually ask. digital God at that point um these.

lawsuits won't be decided before on a. time frame that is relevant um is that a. good thing or a bad. thing I think we live you know there's. that I don't know if it's actually a. real Chinese thing or not but uh may you. live an interesting time is. apparently uh not a good thing um. but I I I would prefer to personally I. would prefer to live in interesting. times um and and we live in the most.

interesting of times I. think and for a while I was like really. getting demotivated and losing sleep. over the sort of the threat of AI danger. and then I finally sort of became. fatalistic about it and said well even. if I knew it was Annihilation was. certain uh what I choose to be alive at. that time or not and I said I probably. would have choose to be alive at that.

time because it's the most interesting. thing um even if there's nothing I could. do about it so then you know then. basically sort of a fatalistic. resignation helped me sleep at night. because I was having trouble sleeping at. night because of AI danger um now what. to do about it I mean I've been the. biggest the the one banging the drum the. hardest by far the. longest uh or at least one of the. longest uh on for AI. danger and and these regulatory things.

that are happening the single biggest. reason they're happening is because of. me um you think they're ever going to. get their arms around it we we talked to. the vice president this afternoon she. said she wants to regulate it people try. to regulate social media for years and. have done nothing effectively well. there's there's regulation around. anything which is a like a a physical. danger to or a danger to the public so. like cars are heavily regulated. Communications are heavily regulated. rockets and aircraft are heavily. regulated um the the general philosophy.

about regulation is that when something. is a danger to the public that there. needs to be some uh government oversight. um so I think in in my view AI is more. dangerous than nuclear. bombs we regulate nuclear bombs you. can't just go make a nuclear bomb in. your. backyard um I think we should have some. kind of. Regulation with AI now this tends to. cause the AI accelerationists to get up. in arms um because they think AI is sort.

of Heaven basically um but you typically. don't like regulation you've pushed back. on Regulators for the most part in the. world of Tesla and the so many so many. instances where we read articles about. you pushing back on The Regulators I'm. so curious why in this instance now you. own one of these. businesses as I said a moment ago um uh. you one should not take what is viewed. in the media as being uh the whole.

picture um there are literally hundreds. like this is not an exaggeration say. there are probably a 100 million. regulations that that my companies. comply with and there are probably five. that we. don't and if there if we disagree with. some of those regulations it's because. we think the regulation that is meant to. do good doesn't actually do good but. that's def regulations for the question. if there are laws and.

rules whether the idea is that you're. making the decision that the law and the. rule shouldn't be the law and the rule. and then right isn't no I'm saying. you're fundamentally mistaken and and. and it should be obvious that you're. mistaken um my company's uh Automotive. is heavily regulated uh we would not be. allowed to put cars on the road if we. did not comply with this vast body of. Regulation now you could you could fill. up this stage with uh literally. you know 6 high with the the the. regulations that you have to comply with.

to make a. car would make you could have a room. full of phone books that's how many. that's how big the regulations are and. if you don't comply with all of those. you can't sell the car and if we don't. comply with all the regulations for. Rockets or for Starling they shut us. down so in fact I am incredibly. compliant with regulations now once in a. while there'll be something that I. disagree with the reason I would. disagree with it is because I think the. regulation in that particular case in.

that rare case does not serve the public. good and therefore I think it is my. obligation uh to object to a regulation. that is meant to serve the public good. but doesn't that's the only time I. object not because I seek to object in. fact I'm incredibly rule following let. me ask you a separate question social. media related question we've been. talking about Tik Tok today um ahead of. the election sir uh Tik Tok is what do. you think of Tik Tok do you think it's a. national security.

threat I don't use Tik Tok um say it. again you don't I don't personally use. it. um but for for people that for for. teenagers and people in their 20s they. seem almost religiously addicted to Tik. Tok um some people will watch Tik Tok. for like two hours a day. um I stopped using Tik Tok when I felt.

the AI probing my mind and I don't it. made me. uncomfortable um so I stopped using it. um and in terms of anti-Semitic content. I mean Tik Tok is Rife with that it has. has the most viral antii content by far. but do you think the Chinese government. is using it to manipulate. the minds of Americans no is that. something that you think we should worry. about I mean you have you have different.

states that are trying to ban it I don't. think this is a some Chinese government. plot um but it it it it. is the the Tik Tok algorithm is entirely. AI powered so it is really just trying. to find the most viral thing. possible it's it's what is going to keep. you glued to the screen right that's it. um now. the on on sheer numbers um there are on. the order of two billion Muslims in the.

world and I think uh you know much. smaller number of Jewish people 20. million something many orders magnitude. F so if you just look at at content. production just on sheer numbers basis. is going to be overwhelmingly. antisemitic let me ask let me ask you a. political question. um and I've been trying to square this. one in my head for a long time yeah in. the last two or three years you have.

moved decidedly to the right I think. have I well we can discuss. this I think that you have uh been. espousing and promoting uh a number of. of of Republican candidates and and. others you've been very frustrated with. the Biden Administration over I think. unions and uh feeling uh like they did. not respect what you've created well I. mean without.

any doing nothing to provoke the V. Administration they held an electric. vehicle Summit at the White House and. specifically refused to let Tesla attend. this was in the first six months of the. administration um and we inquired we're. like we literally make more electric. cars than everyone else combined why are. we not allowed why are you only letting. U Ford GM Chrysler and UAW and you're. specifically Al disallowing us from the. EV Summit at the White House we' done. nothing to provoke them um then uh Biden.

went on to add insult injury um and. publicly said that GM was leading the. electric car Revolution this was in the. same quarter that Tesla made 300,000. electric cars and GM made. 26 does that seem fair to. you so but but tell me this then it it. doesn't seem fair um and and and I've. asked repeatedly you seen and by the way. I had a great relationship with Obama so. there was not a so but but but I voted. for Obama I stood stood in ours for six.

I stood in line for six hours to shake. Obama's head okay so but okay so let me. just ask on a personal level is I can. see it in your face this this hurt you. personally and it hurt the company too. and it was an insult to you know Tesla. has 140,000 employees okay of the half. of them are in the United States TLA has. created more manufacturing jobs than. everyone else. combined so let me ask this then you.

you've devoted at least the last close. to 20 years of your life if not more to. uh the climate climate change uh trying. to get Tesla off the ground in part to. improve climate you talked about that uh. yeah a real right-wing motive is. repeatedly go far right if anything no I. understand that and then so it's it's. reverse psychology Next Level well no. but so here's then the question which is. how do you square the support that you. have given uh I believe you were at a.

fundraiser uh for uh uh Viva gramas. Swami for example who says that the. climate uh climate issue is a. hoax right I disagree with him on that I. but I would think that that would be. such a singular issue for you I would. think that that the climate issue be. such a singular issue for you that. actually it would disqualify almost. anybody who who didn't take that issue. seriously well I haven't endorsed anyone. for for president I mean I wanted to. hear what had to say um because I think.

some of his things are some of things he. says I think are pretty solid um you. know he's concerned about government. over reach um about government control. of information the I mean the degree to. which uh old Twitter was basically a. sock puppet of the government was. ridiculous um so you know it seems to me. that this there there's a a very severe. violation of the First Amendment um in. terms of how much a government control.

how much control the government had over. all Twitter um and uh it no longer does. so you know there's a reason for the. First Amendment um the reason for the. First Amendment for freedom of speech is. because the people that immigrated to. this country uh came from a places where. there was not freedom of speech and and. they were like you know what we we we we. got to make sure that that's. constitutional um because where they. came from if they said something they'. be put in prison or they'd be you know. something bad would happen to them so uh.

and freedom of speech you have to say. when is it relevant it's only relevant. when when someone you don't like can say. something you don't like or it it has no. meaning um and and as soon as you sort. of you know throw in the towel and. concede to censorship it is only a. matter of time before someone censors. you and that is why we have the First. [Music].

Amendment we'll be right. back um could you see yourself voting. for President Biden if if it's if a. Biden Trump election for. example. I think I would not vote for Biden you'd. vote for Trump I'm not saying I'd vote.

for Trump but I. mean this is this is definitely a. difficult Choice here you know would you. would you vote for Nicki Haley Nikki. Haley by the way wants uh all social. media. um names to be exposed as you know no I. think that's outrageous yeah no I'm not. going to vote for some Pro censorship. candidate like I said I mean I think. these you have to you have. to you know consider that there's a lot.

of wisdom uh in these amendments you. know in the Constitution. um and and uh you know a lot of these a. lot of things say we take for granted. here in the United States that don't. even exist in Canada there's not no. constitutional right to freedom of. speech in Canada so you know so and. there's no Miranda rights in Canada. people like think like you know you have. the right to R onent you don't actually. in Canada um so you know I'm half.

Canadian I can sa these things off um. but you know so so like you just got you. the freedom of speech is incredibly. important. um even when people and like like I said. it's it's actually especially important. in fact it is only relevant when uh. people you don't like can say things you. don't like and do you think right now. that meaning you think right now the. Republican candidates or the Democrats.

are more inclined I mean this is where. you go to I assume to to to woke and. anti-woke and the mind Virus issue that. you've talked about which party do you. think is is is more Pro freedom of. speech given all the things you've seen. because we also see you know disantis uh. you know preventing people from Reading. certain things maybe you maybe you think. that's that's that's correct. no uh. look we actually are in an odd situation.

here where on balance uh the Democrats. appear to be more Pro censorship than. the Republicans mean that used to be the. opposite it used to be you know the left. position was freedom of speech um you. know uh I believe at one point um the. ACLU even def defended the right of. someone to claim that they were Nazi or. something like that you know so like. there were there really were uh like the.

left was freedom of speech is is is. fundamental um and I mean my at least. perception Perhaps it is inaccurate is. that um the pro sensorship is more on. the left than than the right um we. certainly get more complaints from the. left and the right let me put that way. um. so um but my aspiration for the. xplatform is that it is the best source. of Truth or the least inaccurate source. of Truth um and well you know I don't.

know you will believe me or not but I. think Honesty is the best policy and I I. think that the truth will went over time. and the you know we've got this this. great system and it's getting better. called Community notes uh which is. fantastic I think at correcting uh. falsehoods uh or or adding context in. fact we we make a point of of not. removing anything but only adding. context now that context could could. include that this is completely false.

and here's why um and and and no one is. immune to this I'm not immune to it. advertisers are not immune to it in fact. we've had Community notes which has. caused us some loss in advertising. speaking of loss in advertising Revenue. um when if a community note if an if if. there false advertising the community. note will say this is false and here is. why um I mean like there's one specific. example that is public knowledge so I'll.

mention it which is at one point uh Uber. had this ad uh which said earn like a. boss uh and it was Community noted if by. a boss you mean $. 12247 an. hour this this did cause at least a. temporary suspension of advertising from. I got to ask you a question that might. make everybody in the room uncomfortable. or not uncomfortable it it goes to the. Free Speech issue the New York Times. company and the New York Times newspaper. it appeared over the summer uh to be.

throttled what what did the New York. Times well we we do require that um that. everyone has to buy a subscription and. we don't make exceptions for anyone and. and I think if I want the New York Times. I have to pay for a subscription and. they don't give me a free. subscription so I'm not going to give. them a free subscription but were you. but were you throttling the New York. Times relative to other news. organizations relative to everybody else. was it was it was it specific to the to. the times they didn't buy a.

subscription by the way only cost like. $1,000 a month so if they just do that. then then they they're back in back in. the saddle but but but you are saying. that it was throttled no I'm saying I. mean was there a conversation that you. had with somebody you said look you know. I'm unhappy with the times they should. either be buying the subscription or I. don't like their content or whatever. whatever. any organization that refuses to buy a. subscription uh is is is not going to be.

recommended but then what does that say. about free speech and what does that say. about amplifying spech is free it costs. a little bit right but. that that's but that's an interesting. yeah know it's like it's like an uh. South Park uh where they say you know. Freedom isn't free it cost a buck5 or. whatever um um so but it's pretty cheap. okay it's low cost lowc cost freedom I. got a couple more questions for you um.

you're headed back to Texas uh after. this to launch uh the Cyber truck yeah. it's going to be a big launch but I. wanted to ask you right now uh more. broadly just about the the car business. and what you see actually happening um. and. specifically the government put in place. lots of policies as you know to try to. encourage uh more AVS and one of the. things that's happened uniquely is you. have now a lot of car companies saying. actually this is too ambitious for us.

these plans are too ambitious 4,000. dealers I don't know if you saw just. yesterday sent a letter to the White. House saying this has gone too far. you're going too far you anti EV it was. an it it was uh this is going too fast. too far and that there's not enough. demand underneath all this is this idea. that maybe there's not enough demand for. EVS that the American public has not. bought into the I mean they bought into. with with with your company but they. haven't bought into it broadly enough. well I think if you make a compelling.

electric car people will buy it no. question about it um I mean electric car. sales in China are gigantic um that's by. far the biggest category right um and I. think that would be the ca you know um I. mean it's worth noting okay so the. probably the best reputation of that is. that the Tesla Model y will be the. bestselling car of any kind on Earth. this. year of any kind gasoline or otherwise. is there another car company that you.

think is doing a good job with. yous I mean I think the Chinese car. companies are extremely competitive um. by far our toughest competition is in. China. so um I mean there's there's a lot of. people who out there who think that the. top 10 car companies is going to be. Tesla followed by nine Chinese car. companies um I think they might not be. wrong so um China is super good at. manufacturing and the work ethic is.

incredible. so um you know like if we consider. different leagues of competitiveness at. Tesla we consider the Chinese League to. be the most competitive um and by the. way we do very well in China because our. CH China team is the best China how. worried are you that that the union. unionization effort that just took place. uh at well not I shouldn't say effort. but the the the new the new wages and. the like at GM and and Ford are that.

they're coming for. you and they are coming for you what is. that going to mean to you in your. business well I I mean I I think it's. generally not good to have an. adversarial relationship uh between um. people on the line you know one group at. the company and another group in fact I. mean I I disagree with the idea of. unions but for a reason that is. different than people may expect which. is I I just don't like anything which. creates kind of a Lords and peasants. sort of thing and and I think the unions.

naturally try to. create negativity in a company and and. create a of sort of Lords and peasants. uh situation there there are many people. at Tesla who have come gone from working. on the line to being in Senior. Management there is no Lords and. peasants everyone eats at the same table. everyone parks in the same parking lot. you know at GM is a special elevator for. only for senior Executives we have no. such thing at Tesla. um you know and the thing is that I.

actually know the people on the line. because I worked on the line and I. walked the line and I slept in the. factory and I and I worked beside. them so I'm no stranger to. them. um and there actually many times where. I've said well can't we just hold a. union boat but apparently a company is. not allowed to hold a union vote so it. has to be somehow called for but the. unions can't do it so I said we'll just. hold a vote and see what happens.

um the actual problem is is is the. opposite it's not that people are. trapped at Tesla building cars the the. the the challenge is is how do we retain. great people to do the hard work of fing. cars when they have like six other. opportunities that they can do that are. easier that's the actual difficult. is is that building cars is hard work. and and and there are much easier jobs. and I just want to say that I'm.

incredibly appreciative of those who. build cars and they know it um you know. so there's there I don't know maybe. there will be unionized if if I say like. if Tesla gets unionized it will be. because we deserve it and we failed in. some way. um but we we we certainly try hard to. you know ensure the prosperity of. everyone we give everyone stock options. um we've we've made many people who are.

just working the line who didn't even. know what stocks were we've made them. millionaires um so we're going to run. out of time final couple quick. questions when do you have the. time to tweet or to post how I I. actually think about it all the time as. I said I use go the bathroom. sometimes I use it all the time meaning. if if we were to if we were to open up. our phones and look at the screen time. what does yours look.

like well about every 3 hours I uh make. a trip to the laboratory that's the only. time you do this seems like you're on. there a. lot. um no I mean I there'll be like brief. moments between. meetings. um I mean it's not obviously I have I. have like 17 jobs so you know and um no. no I guess technically it's work at this.

point it is but but I'm thinking just in. terms of your mind share I mean by the. way there's a lot of people who should. be working who are on who are on this. technically posting on Twitter is or or. X is is work it does count as work so. that's you know there's that. um but no I mean I I think I'm. [Music]. on well I guess usually probably I'm on. for longer than I think I am I know but. do you think that's hours day look at. the screen time of like number hours per. week sometimes that's a scary number um.

it's probably I don't know it's a little. over an hour a day or something like. that just an hour a. day if we really looked at this together. do you have your phone with you yeah you. want to. look. okay okay here we. go you ready screen time screen. time sometimes this is a scary number. but I know that's why I I thought.

uh oh I just got a new phone so I think. this is not accurate because it says I'm. it's one. minute pretty sure it's more than that. wait it's over the week oh there we go. yeah go go go to the. week okay so it's it's still wrong it's. it's more than four. minutes I I just got a new phone so this. is not. it literally says 4 minutes new phone. Tim Cook do do that phone new new phone. who does you. know I should ask by the way because I.

just mentioned Tim Cook do you feel like. you're going to have to have a battle. with him eventually is that is that the. next fight I mean over the App Store the. idea of making a oh phone what you mean. like no of the App Store you ever make a. phone Sam alin's apparently thinking. about making a phone with Johnny h i. mean I don't think there's a real need. to make a phone uh I mean if there's a. essential need to make a phone I'll make. a phone but I got a lot of f to fry. so uh I mean I do think there's a.

there's there's a fundamental challenge. that phone makers have at this point. because you've got a basically a black. rectangle. um you know how do you make that better. so you want to do that what does that. what does that look like in in in elon's. head no that's literally yeah good good. phrase uh in the head a new link well. there we go that we need to touch that. before it's over you know the best. interface would be a neural interface.

directly to your brain um so that that. would be neural how far we do you think. from that and how how excited or scary. does that seem to be and we read these. headlines obviously about monkeys who. died as you know what should we think. about. that uh yeah actually the the this is. the you the USDA inspector who came by. the neuralink facilities literally said. in her entire career she has never seen. a better Animal Care.

Facility it is we are the nicest to. animals that you could possibly be even. to the rats and mice even though they. did the plague and everything um so uh. it is it is like monkey Paradise. um so uh the thing that gets confl is. that there were some terminal monkeys. where you know this is long this is. actually several years ago where the. monkeys were about to die and we're like. okay we've got an experimental device.

it's a kind of thing which only put on a. monkey that's about to die and then you. know now the monkey died but it didn't. die because of the neur link it died. because it was you know had a teral case. of cancer or something like that. so. uh neur has has never caused the death. death of a monkey best I unless they're. hiding something from me is is never. cause death of a monkey and in fact. we've we've now had monkeys with. neuralink implants for I think 2 3 years. and they're doing great so.

um and we've even replaced the ne link. twice uh and it's and and we're getting. ready to do the to do the first uh. implants in hopefully in a few months um. the the only implementations of. neuralink I think are unequally good. speaking of the double-edged sword I. think these early implementations are. single-edged sword um because the first. implementation will be to enable people. who are have lost the brain Body. Connection uh to be able to operate a. computer or a phone faster than someone.

who has hands that that work um so you. can imagine if Stephen Hawking could. communicate faster than someone um who. had full full body functionality how. incredible that would be well that's. what this device will do um and we. should have proof of that in a human uh. hopefully in a few months um it already. Works in in monkeys and works quite well. um with monkeys that can play video. games just using just F thinking um so.

and the next application after um the. the sort of those you know dealing with. tetrolic quad qu fic is going to be um. Vision vision is the the next thing so. it's like if somebody is like has. um lost both eyes or the optic nerve has. failed basically whether. they have no possibility of having sort. of some ocular correction that that will. be the next thing for neur link is a.

direct uh Vision interface and in fact. then you could be like Jordi Le Forge. from Star Trek you could you could see. in like any frequency actually you could. see and radar if you want two final. questions uh and then we're going to do. uh end this conversation which I think. has taken everybody Inside the Mind of. Elon MK today not as well as NE link. will. um. it actually goes to self-driving cars. and vision and everything else um and I. asked this question of Pete Buddha judge.

uh Transportation secretary it's. actually something you retweeted so I. wanted to ask you the same question um. there's a big question about autonomous. vehicles and the safety of them but. there's also a question about when it. will be politically palatable in this. country. for people to die in. cars that are controlled by computers. which is say we have 35 40,000 deaths.

every year in this in this country yeah. if you could bring that number down to. 10,000. 5,000 that might be a great thing but do. we think that the country will accept. the idea that 5,000 people that your. family uh might have have have perished. in a in a a vehicle as a result not of a. human making a mistake but of a. computer um yes well first of all humans. are terrible drivers um so people text. and drive they drink and drive they get.

into arguments they you. know. um you know they do all sorts of things. in cars that they should not do. um so it's actually remarkable that. there are not more deaths than there are. um what we'll find with computer driving. is I think probably an order of. magnitude reduction in deaths um I think. now and the US has actually far fewer.

deaths per capita than the rest of the. world if you go worldwide I think. there's something close to a million. deaths per year due to uh Automotive. accidents um so I think computer driving. will probably drop. that by 90% or more it won't it won't be. perfect but it'll be 10 times better. think public will will accept that do. you think the government will accept. that well at in large numbers the it. will simply be so obviously true um that.

it it really cannot be denied and what. do you think I know we've talked about. the timeline before and I know people. have criticized you uh for putting out. timelines that may not uh have come true. just yet but what do you think it is and. and by the way do you feel that you ever. said to yourself oh I shouldn't have. said that sure of course um wait I. should have said. that um so uh yeah. I I me I'm optimistic about I mean I.

think I'm like naturally optimistic. about time scales and if I was not. naturally optimistic I wouldn't be doing. the things that I'm doing um I mean I. certainly wouldn't have S A Rocket. company or electric car company if I. didn't have some sort of pathological. optimism frankly. um so um as you pointed out many people. said they would fail and in fact I. actually I agree aged with them I said. yes it probably will fail and they're. like H okay um but I I thought Spas 6. and Tesla had less than a 10% chance of. success when we started them um.

so yeah anyway but but the self-driving. thing is is I've been optimistic about. it we' certainly um made a lot of. progress if anybody has tried the very. has been using the sort of full soft. driving beta the progress is uh you know. every year has been. substantial um it's really now at the. point where in most places it'll take. you from one place to another with no.

interventions um and the data is. unequivocal that uh that supervised full. self-driving is somewhere around four. times safer maybe more than than just. human driving by by themselves um so I'm. you. know I can certainly see it coming. actually really you think it's another. five or 10 years I mean people no no no. definitely not definitely not um and you.

feel like investors have invested in. something that that hasn't happened yet. is that is that fair to them and that's. the other question that people have. about that well I mean I think the. they've they've all with rare exception. uh thought it wasn't happening so they. were investing in despite thinking. they're very clear that they don't think. it's real so they're not saying oh we we. just everything y says hook L Sinker U. and but the thing is that I mean I would. be a fair criticism of me to say that I.

am late but it isn't but I always love. her in the end let ask you the final. question I took note of this it was. November 11th and you took to Twitter. and you wrote only two words you said. amplify. empathy right I was taken back by that. given all the things that have been. going on in the world um do you remember. what you were. thinking well I think it's quite. literally amp I understand it but what. was what was going on why why did you.

write. that well I was encouraging people to. apply. empathy literally I tend to be quite. literal um but was there something that. had happened I mean that you had seen. that you said to yourself I need to I. want to say that I think I was talking. to some. friends and we all agreed that we should. try to amplify empathy and so I wrote. amplify. empathy um if you wanted an unvarnished. look inside the mind of Elon Musk I.

think you just saw it look sometimes. it's pretty simple you. know Elon Musk thank you very very much. for the conversation all right thank you. appreciate it very very much thank you. thank you so. [Music]. much. that was a conversation from the. dealbook summit you can check this feed. for other interviews from the dealbook. stage where we speak to leaders in. business politics and culture who are.

shaping the. world this episode was produced by Evan. Roberts it was edited by Elane Chen. mixing by Kelly piclo original music by. Daniel Powell the rest of the dealbook. events team includes Julie Zan Caroline. Brunell Haley Duffy Angela Austin Haley. hes Dana Paskowski Matt Kaiser Yen we. Liu special thanks to Sam dolnick Nina.

Lassen Robie matu Beth Weinstein and. Kate. Carrington this is a production of the. New York. [Music]. Times.