She Used to Be Friends With JD Vance

Sophia can I ask you to read this email. from JD Vance starting with the. date. okay June 29th. 2016 hey sofos here is an excerpt from. my book I send this to you not just to. brag but because I'm sure if you read it. you'll notice reference to an extremely. Progressive lesbian I'm sure most.

readers will have no idea who it refers. to but you will I recognize now that. this may not accurately reflect how you. think of yourself and for that I'm. really. sorry I hope you're not offended love. you. JD and can you read your reply to that. email hey buddy first of all. congratulations second thank you for. reaching out and being sweet third it.

would take a lot more to offend me than. that how do you think I survived growing. up in a similar placees you gasp even. going to public school as a half Mexican. non-evangelical. tomboy while we see and care about many. of the same problems I know we often. come to different conclusions about how. to best address. them but what I value in you is your. genuiness curiosity kindness and desire.

to make a difference and I consider you. a great friend love. Sophia how does it make you feel to read. those exchanges. now this relationship we had of mutual. respect across the political divide has. completely vanished and I think it's sad. for me personally but I think it's also. sad for the country.

why sad for you. personally it's heartbreaking to see. somebody you respected and cared. about turn on you and your. neighbors especially in the context of. knowing that's not who he. was and then that's disappointing to see. anyone do. obviously from New York Times I'm. Michael boaro this is the daily.

as JD Vance has dramatically transformed. himself from a vocal Trump critic into a. trump style candidate and now into. Trump's running mate few people have. witnessed that change from closer up. than Vance's friend from law school. Sophia. Nelson over the past week Nelson has. decided to speak out against fans a. decision that began when she gave the.

times a trove of personal correspondence. with Vance from their yearslong. friendship today I speak with Nelson. about what exactly she's doing why she. decided to do it and what she's learned. about who JD Vance really. [Music]. is it's Monday a August.

[Music]. 5th so I want to better understand the. story of what happened to your. relationship with JD Vance and what. ultimately LED you over the past few. weeks to share a lot of your personal. emails and messages that you exchang. with Vance with the New York Times.

but I want to start with the story of. your friendship when did you first meet. JD. Vance JD and I met in the fall of 2010. during orientation at y Law School we. were both assigned to the same small. group which is 16. individuals and so we took all of our. first semester courses together and we. were encouraged by the university to. bond with that small group I mean they. did so much much as pay for us to.

essentially socialize together so we. spent a great deal of time together in. that first semester and we bonded over. being from the Midwest coming from. workingclass. Communities going to public school K. through 12 which you know is not the. norm at y Law School right there's a lot. of people who go to very fancy private. schools yeah most people at y Law School. are coastal Elites and so JD and I are. not those things you know JD grew up in.

uh Middletown Ohio I grew up in Wayland. Michigan and the collapse of the Auto. industry in 20072 2008 devastated my. hometown and obviously the opioid. epidemic that came after that has. similarly wreaked havoc and we bonded. over that and I think we both you know. were a little shocked by the level of. wealth and.

nepotism present at these Elite. universities mhm I remember he was. deeply hurt by a comment that one of our. professors made that people who went to. State schools tended to perform less. well in the y Law School environment. because he had gone to a state school. right he had gone to Ohio State and my. reaction was JD this man is so out of. touch don't listen to anything he has to. say obviously there's no Monopoly on. intelligence.

by the IV leagues do you remember what. he said in response when you tried to. console him I think he was hellbent on. proving them wrong which was totally. within his right and I think he was very. successful at. that what was his personality in this. place just give us a sense of him I mean. the JD that I became friends with was. sarcastic incredibly curious. motivated and he loved talking with. everyone he could get his hands on.

about political philosophy and the. political issues of our time and and I. love doing the same thing I thought JD. and I shared a curiosity and a. commitment to talking across difference. and a desire to solve real problems you. know my parents and my friends from home. are so surprised that oh this person. that you've connected with is on the. opposite end of the political Spectrum. from you and I was like yeah but. culturally we're very.

similar and how would you describe his. political views at the time where was he. then on the ideological Continuum I mean. he was a bit of an ion class right he. wasn't necessarily beholden to a. specific ideology at the. time I thought he was somewhat creative. in his thinking he was a voracious. reader he was a. conservative who was disillusioned with. the culture wars and thought that they.

were destructive and a. distraction it's interesting that you. said he's disillusioned with the culture. wars and just to make sure I understand. that he just doesn't think there's much. point in having long battles about. questions of you know sexuality or. identity that just didn't feel useful to. him that was my belief at the time and. you know he certainly had a diverse. group of friends.

I think he was skeptical of the identity. politics of the left and he just didn't. understand why that needed to be a main. topic of. conversation because why can't we just. get to know a person for who they. are and Sophia how did you identify at. the time during this period of law. school he called you a progressive. lesbian in his book which I take it from. his wording is not quite. accurate yeah I certainly identified as.

a progressive um and still do however. lesbian was not the word that I would. have used to describe myself at the time. nor do I use that word now and know I. have a trans identity uh and a queer. identity labels are not that important. to me and I wasn't offended when he. called me a lesbian and I wouldn't be. offended if someone called me a lesbian. today as long as people are well. intentioned the language that they use. is is not going to set me off well given. that I'm curious how he felt about you. and your identity in this period was.

that ever tense or in any way awkward. did his politics ever become in conflict. with who you were absolutely not you. know my partner at the. time was a woman and we were invited to. their wedding and we went together to. the wedding of JD Vance and his now wife. yes. and when we spoke even after law school. he would ask me how she was doing he. showed interest in you know cared about. my relationship and my well-being and I.

cared about his and you know Usha was. also in our small group his wife yes and. I don't think it even crossed their mind. to care if someone was gay or trans. or you just get to know people for who. they. are and um I I had gender affirming. surgery in 2012 while I was in law. school and my partner at the time. emailed my closest friend friends.

letting them know that that's what I was. doing and that you know when I came back. to. school it would be really nice if you. know they supported me in my recovery. and that was very sweet of her to do. that and I remember him bringing me. baked goods and we had a brief. conversation that was essentially like I. don't really know what Top surgery is or. why you did that but you know whatever. you need to do to be happy like I. support you essentially and it it meant. a lot to me because you know I obviously. had a lot lot of or maybe it's not.

obvious but I had a lot of queer friends. in law school and I didn't need to do a. lot of explaining about why I was. getting surgery to them and JD wasn't. asking me to explain. either I don't need anyone to understand. you know why I needed to get surgery or. exactly the complexity of my identities. if they can treat me with respect and. kindness. [Music].

so you and JD Vance both graduate from y. Law School you both leave New Haven you. become this public defender in Detroit. he goes off to a law firm did you think. that you would stay close and keep in. touch yes I did mhm he challenged me. intellectually and I felt like we both. benefit.

from discussing current events and. ideas knowing that we wouldn't usually. agree I really thought JD helped me. think. carefully about the issues that I was. seeing in my work and I was hopeful that. I was doing the same for him you were. making each other smarter and sharper I. want to talk about that because I've now. looked at this correspondence that you. shared with the times that occurs after. Law School.

and you two very much become adult pen. pals right you're kind of processing. everything in the world some of the most. divisive subjects of our time you talk. about race policing affirmative action. and as makes sense given what we've. talked about here you come at them from. different. perspectives but you're both trying to. find a lot of common ground and you. often do and I'm I'm curious what do you. remember most from those exchanges what.

stands out to you from. them it gave me hope because at the time. our politics was starting to shift. nationally away from any desire to build. consensus his thoughtfulness and our. relationship gave me hope that that. wasn't a lost cause do you mind if I. engage with some of the specific things. he said in those emails CU I think it. will help listeners get a feel for.

what he's saying and better understand. your reactions to them yes let me start. with the post Michael Brown exchanges. that you guys are having yes Vance. writes to you that he thinks it's. important that there be greater. accountability for police officers and. he writes quote I love the body camera. movement and anything that puts cops. back in the mindset of service and. protection instead of control and. coercion and he goes on to say I hate.

the police given the number of negative. experiences I've had in the past few. years I can't imagine what a black guy. goes through and then he talks to you. about the subject of that horrible mass. shooting in. Charleston and he. expresses bewilderment that anyone would. ever try to disentangle the presence of. the Confederate flag over the South.

Carolina state house from what happened. in that. shooting and he talks to you about. reparations for black Americans and he. says quote I will say this whatever. practical or moral problems I have with. compensating the ancestors of slaves or. compensating quote black people as a. giant Collective I have at least been. convinced of the virtue of compensating. modern victims who suffer from redlining.

or denial of federal benefits or. something similar it makes sense to me. he tells you that black veterans who. never got their GI Bill benefits are. owed something I mean these are very. moderate highly nuanced compassionate. viewpoints completely and I I I remember. responding specifically to the. reparations discussion cuz I had sent. him tanasi CO's piece in the Atlantic. and that was what launched this.

conversation I responded something along. lines of I think that's really big if. you conservative JD Vance now see that. the government has taken action to in. modern times widen the wealth gap. between white and black Americans. through policy and that the government. needs to take action to remedy that and. he was like well it shouldn't be.

I want to talk specifically about Donald. Trump because one thing that really. stands out in your emails with JD Vance. is how much you two agree on Donald. Trump as he emerges onto the political. scene this is 2015. 2016 how did he represent his feelings. about Trump in that. period the public record on this is. extensive and it's no different from. what he said to me personally which is a. recognition that Trump was planning. the Flames of racism and he was very.

concerned about the effect of that. rhetoric on people's sense of feeling. included in their country and their own. personal safety and that came up and you. know I live in Detroit metro Detroit. houses the largest Muslim population in. the United States and one of my friends. at the time told me that some of the. women in her life that wear hijab were. feeling as harassed and scared around.

Trump's rhetoric doing basic things like. going to the grocery store as they had. felt in the wake of 9/11 and you told. him that I did and he responded with. empathy and concern right in his emails. to you he's pretty unambiguous in his. disgust for Trump in this period I mean. he writes to you that Trump is a. disaster he actually says a effing.

disaster he calls him a bad man and. quote a morally. reprehensible human being what did you. think about. that I thought it reflected his core. values while we differed on tax policy. and how big or small government should. be we agreed that nobody should be. vilified and. dehumanized and that talking about. America an or non-americans in callous.

and cruel terms was aoral right mhm I. mean I don't know Donald Trump right I. I'm sure he has things I could find to. love about him if I was his family. member or friend but the moral. injury that his rhetoric has wrecked on. this country is devastating and JD and I. agreed on that at the time. I mean we.

shared a belief that what Donald Trump. was trying to. do was morally reprehensible and. [Music]. dangerous we'll be right. back so after Trump was elected was. there a point where you noticed that the.

kinds of conversations that you had been. having with JD. Vance and the JD Vance you were starting. to see out in the world were. diverging it wasn't until 2020 his tone. on Twitter started changing how. so he started name calling he started. adopting Donald Trump's style of speak. and it's just not. at all reflective of the person I had.

gotten to know and it was concerning me. do you remember specifically the names. he. called well I certainly remember the. childless cat lady comment of childless. cat ladies who are miserable at their. own lives and the choices that they've. made and so they want to make the rest. of the country miserable too that idea. that people who don't have children. don't have a meaningful stake in the. country when you go to the polls in this. country as a parent you should have more.

power have the same voting rights as as. people with children if you don't have. as much of an investment in the future. of this country maybe you shouldn't get. nearly the same voice and then he. started making really cruel comments. about abortion yeah I mean I I certainly. would like abortion to be illegal. nationally um he came out opposing. abortion in cases of rape and. incest and when we talked about abortion. in law school JD was deeply.

uncomfortable with the concept of. abortion what he related to me is what. his grandmother had taught him which is. that you can never know what situation a. woman is in when she's making that. difficult decision and it's not the. government's business essentially and I. think he was really struggling with. whether he agreed with his grandma. mother or not but his extreme opinions.

started developing in. 2020 and when he came out in support of. a ban on gender affirming care in 2021. that was introduced in Arkansas I. reached out to him directly when someone. is trying. to strip you of your political and civil. rights and you have their cell phone. number at least I felt like I needed to. text them about it and I did and what. did you say to him I asked him if he.

supported these laws these are bands on. gender affirming care for children. specifically the Arkansas Bill yes and. we went back and forth and he. acknowledged that it was awkward but. then explained to me that he thought it. was experimentation and that I had been. brainwashed by Jeff Bezos and I mean it. was just it the tenor of the. conversation was completely anathema to.

the tenor of our previous conversations. right i' I've read this text exchange. and whereas almost all of your previous. messages are too generous people working. through tough stuff right this one feels. like that Dynamic is kind of. unraveling and you say to him at one. point in this. exchange quote the political voice you. have become seems so so far from the man.

I got to know in law school and JD Vance. replies to you I will always love you. but I really do think the left's. cultural progressivism is making it. harder for normal people to live their. lives and that back and forth feels like. it marks a change in your relationship. it was incredibly different and it was. incredibly painful and. hurtful this division of Americans that. he has embraced of normal people and.

everyone else H I am a normal. person queer people are normal Americans. I I don't whatever I I don't divide the. world between Normal and abnormal people. I don't think that helps anyone. and in a lot of ways I think I lead a. much more average life than he does I am. not a millionaire. I lead a private.

existence and specifically the term. normal. really scared me. because he has set up a. war between quote normal people and. those who are trying to attack them you. know I I shared some pretty personal. stuff with him about my experience as a. trans. kid because I know what it's like to sit.

and cry as a kid and think I have to fix. myself there's no way that I can be this. person and be loved and have a job and. be accepted and be okay and that is a. devastating. experience and I was so hopeful that it. would be easier for future Generations.

and what I was seeing JD engage in is. something that was even scarier than. what I grew up with and so I felt. personally betrayed but also very. fearful and the hope that I was talking. about. before that our correspondence gave me. sunk H could you believe that you were. having that. conversation I believe that the man that. I used to know was gone so of course. what happens next is that Vance is.

catapulted into his political career he. makes peace with Trump apologizes to. Trump Embraces Trump runs for Senate in. Ohio yeah and I obviously followed what. was happening in the Ohio Race and I. chose not to say anything at that time. you know my classmate Josh McClaren. leaked a message where JD had privately. referred to Donald Trump as America's. Hitler and obviously I had some SAR. things in my possession but I didn't.

feel compelled to act at that time which. maybe was a lack of moral courage on my. part or lingering affection probably. that too yeah I think there you know. it's still hard for me because I I have. a lot of fun memories about him and his. wife. and I still care about him on some level. and. I I didn't want to betray him and I I I.

think maybe I still held on some hope. okay so once he's doing this to get. elected and maybe once he's in. office we'll see some moderation but. that obviously hasn't. happened if anything he's gone farther. to the. right and so tonight Mr chairman I stand. Here humbled and I'm overwhelmed with. gratitude to say I officially accept. your nomination to be vice president of. the United States of.

[Applause]. America and every single day for the. next four years when I walk into that. white house to help president Trump I. will be doing it for you for your family. for your future and for this great. country thank you God bless all of you. and God bless our great. [Applause]. [Music]. country I want to talk about what it. means for Vance to become Trump's. running mate because in talking to you.

about the emails you guys exchanged in. those years after law school it's hard. not to recognize the ways in which being. Trump's running mate means that he's. aligning himself with positions that are. very much at odds with what he said to. you in in some of those emails right I. mean Trump is someone who tolerates zero. questioning of the police Trump is. someone who says that the Confederate. flag is a proud symbol of the. US that's so different from the way JD.

Vance talked to you about the. Confederate flag in Charleston so. different from what he said to you about. hating the police and being skeptical of. them and it goes on and on the. divergences and so it's once Vance. becomes Trump's running mate that you do. start to entertain the idea that these. correspondents should become public. right people started reaching out to me. saying that reporters were calling them. this was before he was announced and. that they had shared my name with.

reporters as someone who might have some. information and I kind of took the. approach of well if a reporter calls me. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. and eventually a reporter did call me my. colleague Stephanie Saul correct and I. had a great deal of back and forth with. Stephanie I talked with my partner I. talked with my parents and then I called. a close friend from elementary school.

who's an independent voter someone who I. have an immense amount of respect for a. single mom living in rural America. trying to do her best and I wanted her. opinion and what' she say she said that. that she votes for. People based on their. character and that she thinks that this. was important information but she also. understood why I was really hesitant to. share it But. ultimately that she thought that was.

important information was really crucial. in my decision mhm I think the. importance of the correspondence and why. I made them public is that you know JD. has tried to explain why he changed his. mind on Donald Trump but I think what. the American people deserve to know is. that he has changed his position on. every conceivable issue that affects. everyday Americans. and the timing of those.

changes line up with his attempt to rise. in the mega. movement so they're indicative of. someone who's willing to turn their back. on their core values in order to amass. money and power and I think that. reflects a lack of. Integrity that isn't something that. people want in their leaders it's one. thing to evolve your opinion on certain. issues when you get new information it's. a completely separate thing to transform.

your personality and change your. position on every conceivable issue in. order to advance your career and so it's. the Integrity it's the being a political. chameleon that I think people deserve to. know you have clearly concluded that JD. Vance's transformation was not organic. you see it as a story of ambition. overtaking. conviction but I want to talk about a. different possibility or I guess a. different interpretation of what's. happened here and arguably a more.

generous way of seeing what has happened. to Vance and it's that people really do. change and his beliefs have genuinely. evolved because of changes around him. because of forces that are present now. that weren't I mean and when I try to. make sense of how Vance himself. describes his transformation what I hear. him saying and I wonder if you hear him. saying it too is that you know liberal. policies top- down liberal approaches to.

issues like how to handle race how to. handle diversity how Americans should. talk about sexuality and gender that. those have become dogmatic and that he. doesn't think they've given Americans a. space to think for themselves and that. is how he is processing these changes. and I wonder if you've given him the. benefit of the doubt and tried to think. about whether that is the. explanation I don't live in JD Vance's. head so I can't defin L say what his. motivations.

are I have certainly changed my mind. about a number of things and I hope we. all evolve and change our minds it shows. Evolution maturity changing your mind. with new. information is a good. thing but there's a difference between. evolving and transforming on every. conceivable issue and again the way you. talk about people I think the content of. the emails is important but also the.

nature of them the. kindness the mutual respect is. completely gone from the way he speaks. publicly and both of those things are. important because the way we talk about. people especially the way our leaders. talk about people has real. impact on. communities it gives everyday Americans. and emboldens them to treat their.

neighbors with. cruelty it diminishes our ability to. have respectful conversations across. difference and so it is very hard for me. to. imagine that you could. transform and again every conceivable. political. issue and also the way you talk about. people different from you I have a final.

question for you what would you say to. JD Vance if you felt you could talk to. him right now if you could get past. everything that's just happened and you. could just the two of you sit down for a. a coffee or a. beer it's a really hard. question I would ask. him why he's so.

angry at everyday. people who are different from. him what about how I live my life makes. it hard for normal. people what did I. do I I I truly don't know. [Music].

thank you so much for your time we. really appreciate it thank you. [Music]. Michael in response to Sophia's decision. to publicly share their correspondence a. spokesman for JD Vance issued a. statement quote it's unfortunate that. this individual chose to leak decades.

old private conversations between. friends to the New York Times Senator. Vance the statement said values his. friendships with individuals across the. political Spectrum the statement added. despite their disagreements Senator. Vance cares for Sophia and wishes Sophia. the very. best we'll be right back. here's what else you need to know Day on.

Sunday vice president KLA Harris met. with three potential running mates to. test their personal chemistry a signed. that her search for a number two has. entered its Final Phase Harris met with. Arizona Senator Mark Kelly Minnesota. Governor Tim Walls and Pennsylvania. Governor Josh Shapiro at her home in. Washington DC she's expected to announce. her Choice by. tomorrow and Israel is bracing for a.

major retaliatory attack after its. assassination last week of highlevel. leaders from both Hamas and Hezbollah at. least four major airlines have suspended. flights into and out of Israel for fear. of an aerial attack from Iran or Lebanon. the countries where the assassinations. occurred. today's episode was produced by Ricky.

nety Alex Stern and Lindsay Garrison. with help from Diana win and Rob zipco. it was edited by Ben Calhoun with help. from page cow and Patricia willins. contains original music by Dan Powell. and row nisto and was engineered by. Alyssa Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben lansberg of wonderl. [Music].

that's it for the daily I'm Michael B. see you tomorrow. [Music].