Ronna McDaniel, TV News and the Trump Problem

from New York Times I'm Michael babbaro. this is the. [Music]. daily today The Saga of Ronald McDaniel. and NBC and what it reveals about the. state of television news headed into the. 2024 presidential. race Jim rudenberg a times writer at. large is our. guest.

it's Monday April. [Music]. 1st Jim NBC News just went through a. very public a very searing drama over. the past week that we wanted you to make. sense of in your unique capacity as a. longtime media and political reporter at. the times this is your sweet spot you.

were I believe born to dissect the story. for us. brother well on the one hand this is a. very small moment for a major Network. like NBC they hire as a contributor not. an anchor not a correspondent as a. contributor Ronda McDaniel the former. RNC chairwoman it blows up in a mini. scandal at the network but to me it. represents a much larger issue that's. been there since that moment Donald J. Trump took his shiny gold escalator. later down to announce his presidential.

run in 2015 this struggle by the news. media to figure out especially on. television how do we capture him cover. him for all of his lies all the. challenges he poses to democratic Norms. yet not alienate some 74 75 million. American voters who still follow him. still believe in him and still want to. hear his reality reflected in the news. that they're listening to right which is.

about as gnarly a conundrum as anyone. has ever dealt with in the news media. well it's proven so far. unsolvable well let's use the story of. what actually happened with Ron McDaniel. and NBC to to illustrate your point and. I think that means describing precisely. what happened in this situation the. story starts out so simply it's such a. basic thing that television networks do. as election get underway they want.

people who will reflect the two parties. they want Talking Heads they want. insiders they want them on their payroll. so they can rely on them whenever they. need them and they want them to be high. level so they can speak with great. knowledge about the two major candidates. right and rather than needing to beg. these people to come on their show at 6. o'clock when they might be busy and it's. not their full-time job they go off and. they basically put them on retainer for. a bunch of money yeah and in this case. here's this perfect scenario because. quite recently Ron and McD Daniel the.

chairwoman of the Republican National. Committee through the Trump era most of. it is now out on the market she's. actually recently been forced out of the. party and all the networks are. interested because here's The consumate. Insider from Trump World ready to get. snatched up under contract for the next. election and can really represent this. movement that they've been trying to. capture so NBC's key news Executives. move pretty aggressively pretty swiftly. and they sign up for a $300,000 a year.

contributor's contract nice money if you. can get it not a millions of dollars. that they pay their anchors but a very. nice contract I'll take it you'll take. it in the eyes of NBC execs she was. perfect because she can be on Meet the. Press as a panelist she can help as they. figure out some of their coverage they. have 24 hours a day to fill and right. here's an official from the RNC right. you can almost imagine the question that. would be asked to her it's 10 p.m. on. Election night R what are the Trump. people thinking right now they're.

looking at the same number as you. are that was good but that's exactly it. and we all know it right this is. television in our current ERA so last. Friday NBC makes what should be a. routine announcement but one they're. very proud of that they've hired Ronda. McDaniel and in a statement they say it. couldn't be a more important moment to. have a voice like Ras on the team so. all's good right except for there's a. flying the ointment because it turns out. that Ronald McDaniel has been slated to. to appear on Meet the Press not as a.

paid NBC contributor but as the former. recently ousted RNC chair with the Meet. the Press host Kristen Welker who's. preparing to have a real tough interview. with Ron McDaniel because of course Ron. McDaniel was chair of the party and at. Trump's side as he tried to refuse his. election loss so this was supposed to be. a showdown interview from NBC News in. Washington the longest running show in. television history this is Meet the.

Press with Kristen Welker and here all. of the sudden Kristen Welker is thrown. for a loop in full disclosure to our. viewers this interview was scheduled. weeks before it was announced that. McDaniel would become a paid NBC News. contributor because now she's actually. interviewing a member of the family. who's on the same payroll right suddenly. she's interviewing a colleague this will. be a news interview and I was not. involved in her hiring so what happens. during the interview so Welker is. prepared for tough interview and that's.

exactly what she does can you say as you. sit here today did Joe Biden win the. election fair and square he won he's the. legitimate s fair and square he won it's. certified it's done she presses her on. the key question that a lot of. Republicans get asked these days do you. accept Joe Biden was the winner of the. election why you to say that why has it. taken you until now to be able to say. I'm going to push back a little McDaniel. gets defensive at times because I do. think it's fair to say there were. problems in 2020 and to say that does.

not mean he's not the leg when you say. that it suggests that there was. something wrong with the election and. you know that the election was the most. heavily scrutinized Chris KB it's a. really combative interview I want to. turn now to your actions in the. aftermath of the 2020 election and. Welker actually really does go deeply. into McDaniel's record in those weeks. before January 6 on November 17th you. and Donald Trump were recorded pushing. two Republican Michigan election. officials not to certify the results of.

the election and I'll call for instance. she presses McDaniel on McDaniel's role. in an attempt to convince a couple. County Commissioner level canvassers in. Michigan to not certify Biden's Victory. our call that night was to say are you. okay vote your conscience not pushing. them to do anything and then McDaniel. says look I was just telling them to. vote their conscience they should do. whatever they think is right but you. said do not sign it you can go home.

tonight do not sign it how can people. read that is anything other than a. pressure campaign no the. pressure and Welker's not going to just. let her off the hook Welker presses her. on Trump's own comments about January 6. and and Trump's efforts recently to. gloss over some of the violence and to. say that those who've been arrested. he'll free them do you support that I. want to be very clear the violence that. happened on January 6th is unacceptable. and this is a frankly fascinating moment.

because you can hear McDaniel starting. to if not quite reverse some of her. positions though in some cases she does. that at least really soften her language. it's almost as if she's switching. uniforms from the RNC one to an NBC one. or almost like breaking from a role she. was playing R why not speak out earlier. why just speak out about that now when. you're the RNC chair you you kind of. take one for the whole team right now I. get to be a little bit more myself right. this is what she says hey you know what.

sometimes is r in C chair you just have. to take it for the team sometimes right. what she's really saying is I did things. as chairwoman of the Republican National. Committee that now that I no longer have. that job I can candidly say I wished I. hadn't done which is very honest but. it's also another way of saying I'm two. faced or you know I was playing a. part R McDaniel thank you very much for. here this. morning then something extraordinary.

happens and I have to say I've never. seen A Moment Like This in decades of. watching television news and covering. television news welcome back the panel. is here Chuck Todd NBC News Chief. political analyst Kimberly Welker brings. her regular panel on including Chuck. Todd now the senior NBC political. analyst Chuck let's Dive Right In what. were your takeaways and he launches. right into what he calls look let me. deal with the elephant in the room the. elephant being this hiring of mcdang I. think our bosses owe you an apology for. putting you in this situation and he.

proceeds on NBC's air to lace into. management for as he describes it. putting Welker in this crazy awkward. position because I don't know what to. believe she is now a paid contributor by. NBC News I have no idea whether any. answer she gave to you was because she. didn't want to mess up her contract and. Todd is very hung up on this idea that. when she was speaking for the party she. would say one thing and now that she's. on the p Ro at NBC she's saying another.

thing she has credibility issues that. she still has to deal with is she. speaking for herself or is she speaking. on behalf of who's paying her Todd is. basically saying how are we supposed to. know which one to believe right what can. we believe it is important for this. network and for always to have a wide. aperture having ideological diversity on. this panel is something I prided myself. on we take you and what he's effectively. saying is that his bosses should have. never hired her in this capacity Network.

I understand the motivation but this. execution I think was poor someone said. to me last night we live in complicated. times thank you guys for being here I. really appreciate it now let's just note. here this isn't just any player at NBC. Chuck Todd is obviously a major news. name at the network and him doing this. appears to open the floodgates across. the entire NBC News brand especially on. its sister cable network MSNBC and where. I said I'd never seen anything like what.

I saw Meet the Press that morning I'd. never seen anything like this either cuz. now the entire MSNBC lineup is an open. Rebellion I mean from the minute that. the sun comes. up there is Joe SCB mik brazinski we. weren't asked our opinion of the hiring. but if we were we would have strongly. objected to it for several reason. they're on fire over this we believe NBC. News should seek out Conservative. Republican voices but it should be. conservative Republicans not a person.

who used her position of power to be an. anti-democracy election denier and we. hope but it rolls out across the entire. schedule because R McDaniel has been a. major pedler of the big lie Joy Reed. tell you the fact that Miss McDaniel is. on the payroll at NBC news to me that is. inexplicable I mean you wouldn't hire a. mobster to work at a DA's office right. Rachel mat devotes an entire half hour.

it's not about just being associated. with Donald Trump and his time in the. Republican party it's not even about. lying or not lying it's about our system. of government thumbing her noses at her. bosses and basically accusing them of. abetting a traitorous figure in American. history I mean just extraordinary stuff. it's television. [Music]. history and let's face it we journalists.

our bosses know we can be seen as. crybabies and we're paid complain that's. what we're paid to do but in this case. the NBC Executives cannot ignore this. because in the outcry there's a very. clear point that they're all making. Ronda McDaniel is not just a voice from. the other side she was a fundamental. part of Trump's efforts to deny his. election loss mhm this is not inviting. the other side this is someone who's on. the wrong side of History of history of.

these moments that we've covered and are. still covering right and I think it's. fair to say that at this point everyone. understands that Ronald McDaniel's time. at NBC News is going to be very. shortlived yeah basically after all this. the executives at NBC have to face facts. it's over and on Tuesday night they. release a statement to the staff saying. as much they don't cite the questions. about red lines or what R McDaniel. represented or didn't represent they. just say we need to have a unified. Newsroom we want cohesion this isn't.

working I think in the end she was a. paid contributor for 4 days yeah one of. the shortest Tangers in television news. history and look in one Respect by their. standards this is kind of a pretty small. contract a few hundred, they may have to. pay out but it was way more costly. because they hired her they brought her. on board because they wanted to appeal. to these tens of millions of Americans. who still love Donald J. Trump and what happens now is that this.

entire thing is blown up in their face. and those very same people now see a. network that in their view in the view. of Republicans across the country this. network will not accept any Republican. so it becomes more about that and Fox. News NBC's longtime rival goes wall to. wall with this now NBC News just cave to. the breathless demands from their. far-left frankly emotionally unhinged. host I mean I had it on my desk all day. and every minute I looked at that screen. it was pounding on these liberals at NBC.

News driving this Republican out it's. the shortest tenure in TV history I. think but why well because she supports. Donald Trump period so in a way this. leaves NBC worse off with that Trump. Republican audience they had wanted to. court than maybe even they were before. it's like a boomerang with a Grenade on. it yeah like it completely explodes in. their face and that that's why to me the.

whole episode is so representative of. this 8year conundrum for the news media. especially on television they still. haven't been able to crack the code for. how to handle the Trump movement the. Trump candidacy and what it has wrought. on the American political system and. American. [Music]. journalism.

we'll be right. back Jim put into context this painful. episode of NBC into that larger. conundrum you just diagnosed that the. media has faced when it comes to Trump. well Michael it's been there from the. very beginning from the very beginning. of his political rise the media was on. this kind of seesaw you know they go. back and forth over how to cover him. sometimes they want to cover him quite. aggressively because he's such a.

challenging candidate he was bursting so. many Norms but at other times there was. this instinct to understand his appeal. for the same reason he's such an unusual. candidate so there was a great desire to. really understand his voters and frankly. to speak to his voters because they're. part of the audience and we all lived it. right but just let me take you back. anyway because everything's fresh again. with perspective and so if you go back. you know let's look at when he first ran.

the networks if you recall saw him as. almost like a novelty candidate he was. going to spice up what was expected to. be a boring campaign between The Usual. Suspects and he was a ratings magnet and. the networks they just couldn't get. enough of it and they allowed him at. times to really shatter their own Norms. welcome back to Meet the Press sir good. morning Chuck good morning let me start. he was able to just call into the studio. and riff with the the likes of George. Stephanopoulos Chuck Todd can be true.

what does it have to do with she can't. talk about me because nobody respects. women more than Donald Trump and I'm and. CNN gave him a lot of unmitigated. airtime if if you recall during the. campaign when they would run the press. conferences it's the largest Winery on. the East Coast I own it 100% no and let. him promote his Trump stakes and his. Trump wine Trump Stakes where are the. stakes do we have Stakes I mean it got. that crazy but again the ratings were. huge. and then he wins and because they had.

previously given him all that airtime. they've in retrospect sort of given him. a political gift and more than that now. have a journalistic imperative to really. address him in a different way to cover. him as they would have covered any other. candidate which let's face it they. weren't doing initially so there's sort. of this extra motivation to make up for. lost ground and maybe for some. journalistic omissions right kind of.

correct for the lack of a rigorous. journalistic filter in the campaign. exactly and the big thing that this will. be a remember for us we're going to call. a lie alive I don't want to sugarcoat. this because facts matter and the fact. is President Trump lies he. Li Trump lies we're going to say it's a. lie and I think we can't just me Sur it. because they are lies and so we need to. call them what they are and I we're no. longer going to use euphemisms or you.

know loser language we're going to call. it for what it is Trump lies in tweets. he spreads false information at rallies. he lies when he doesn't need to you know. he he lies when the truth is more than. enough for him CNN was running chirons. that would fact check Trump and call. lies lies on the screen while Trump is. talking they were challenging Trump to. his face one of the statements that you. made in the tail end of the campaign in. the midterms that here we go that well. if you don't mind Mr President that this.

Caravan was an invasion in these crazy. press conferences they're hundreds of. miles away though they're hundreds and. hundreds of miles away that that's not. an invasion honestly I think you should. let me run the country you run CNN and. if you did it well your ratings let me. ask if I may ask one other question Mr. President if I may ask one other. question are you worried that's enough. that's enough president and Trump is. giving it right back I'll tell you what. CNN should be ashamed of itself having. you working for them you are rude. terrible person you shouldn't be working.

for. CNN very. [Music]. combative so this was this incredibly. fraught moment for the American Press. you've got tens of millions of trump. supporters seeing what's really basic. factchecking these look like attacks to. Trump supporters Trump in turn is. calling the press the reporters are. enemies of the people so it's a terrible. Dynamic mhm and when January 6 happens.

it's so obviously out of control and. with the traditional press that follows. traditional journalistic rules has to do. is make it clear that the claims that. Trump is making about a stolen election. are just so abjectly false that they. don't warrant a single minute of real. consideration once the reporting has. been done to show how false they are and. I think that American journalism really. emerged from that feeling strongly about. its own values and its own place in.

society but then you know there's still. tens of millions of trump voters and. they don't feel so good about the. coverage and they don't agree that. January 6 was an Insurrection and so we. enter yet another period where the Press. is going to have to now maybe rethink. some things in what way well there's a. kind of quiet period after January 6. Trump is off of social media the smoke.

is literally dissipating from the air in. Washington and news executives are kind. of standing there on you know the. proverbial Battlefield taking a new sort. of look at their situation and they're. seeing that in this clearer light. they've got some new problems perhaps. none more important for their entire. business models than that their ratings. are quickly crashing and part of that. diminishment is that a huge part of the.

country that Trump loving part of the. audience is really now severed from from. their coverage they see the press as. actually in some cases being complicit. in stealing an election and so these. news Executives again especially on. television which is so ratings dependent. they've got a problem so after. presumably learning all these lessons. about journalism and how to confront. power there's a first subtle and then.

much less subtle rethinking maybe we. need to pull back from that approach and. maybe we need to take some new lessons. and switch it up a little bit and. reverse some of what we did and one of. the best examples of this is none other. than. CNN it had come Under New Management was. being led by a guy named Chris lick a. veteran of cable news but also Steven. CO's late night show been his last job. and his new job under this new.

management is we're going to recalibrate. a little bit so Chris lick proceeds to. try to bring the network back to the. center and how does he do that well we. see some key personalities who sort of. represented the Trump combat Era start. losing air time and some of them lose. their jobs there's talk of we want more. Republicans on the air there was a. famous magazine article about Chris. Lick's balancing act here and Chris lick.

says to a reporter Tim albera of the. Atlantic magazine look a lot in the. media including at his own network quote. unquote put on a jersey took a side they. took a side and he says I think we. understand that Jersey cannot go back on. because he says in the end of the day by. the way it didn't even work we didn't. change anyone's. mind he's saying that confrontational. approach Ro that defined the four years.

Trump was in office that was a reaction. to the feeling that TV news had failed. to. properly treat Trump with sufficient. skepticism that that actually was a. failure both of Journalism and of the TV. news business is that what he's saying. yeah on the business side it's easier. call right you want a bigger audience. and you're not getting the bigger. audience but he's making a journalistic. argument as well that if the job is to.

convey the truth and take it to the. people so that they and they take that. into account as they make their own. voting decisions and formulate their own. opinions about American politics if tens. of millions of people who do believe. that election was stolen are completely. tuning you out because now they see you. as a political combatant you're not. achieving your ultimate goal as a. journalist and what does licks don't put. a jersey back on approach look like on. CNN for its viewers wow it didn't look.

good people might remember this but the. most glaring example please welcome the. front runner for the Republican. nomination former president Donald. Trump was when he held a town hall. meeting featuring Donald J Trump now. candidate Trump before an audience. packed with Trump's fans when you look. at what happened during that election uh. unless you're a very stupid person you. see what happens a lot of the people. Trump let loose a string of falsehoods.

most people understand what happened. that was a rigged election the audience. this prot Trump audience was cheering. him on are you ready are you ready can I. talk yeah what's the answer can do you. mind I would like for you to answer the. question okay it's very simple to answer. that's why I asked it it's very simple. to you're a nasty person I'll tell. you and jering the CNN anchor hosting. this Caitlyn Collins right on CNN's own. air it was it was a disaster right it. felt like a call back to to the. unlearned lessons of 2016 yeah and in.

this case CNN staff was up in arms big. shake up in the cable news industry as. CNN makes another change at the top. Chris lick is officially out at CNN. after a chaotic run as chairman and CEO. and Chris didn't survive it the chief. executive's departure comes as he faced. criticism in recent weeks after the. network hosted a town hall with Donald. Trump and the Network's ratings started. to drop but I want to say that the CNN. leadership still even after that as they.

brought new leadership in said this is. still the path we're going to go on. maybe that didn't work out but we're. still here this is still what we have to. do right and this idea is very much in. the water of TV news that this is the. right overall direction yeah this is by. no means isolated to CNN this is. throughout the traditional news business. these conversations are happening. everywhere but CNN was living it at that. point and this of course is how we get. to NBC. deciding to hire Rana McDaniel right cuz.

they're picking up right where that. conversation leaves off they're having. the same conversation but for NBC You. could argue this tension between. journalistic values and audience it's. even more pressing because even though. MSNBC is a niche cable network NBC News. is part of an old-fashioned broadcast. network it's on television stations. throughout the country and in fact those. networks they still have 6:30 newscasts. and believe it or not millions of people.

still watch those every night maybe not. as many as they used to but there's. still some six or seven million people. right tuning in tonightly news that's. important right we should say that kind. of number is sometimes double or triple. that of the cable news Prime Time shows. that get all the attention on their best. nights so this is this is big business. still and that business is based on. Broad it's called broadcast for a reason. that's based on Broad audiences so NBC. had a business. imperative and they argue they had a.

journalistic imperative mhm so given all. of that Jim I think the big messy. question here is when it comes to. NBC did they make a tactical error. around hiring the wrong Republican which. blew up or did they make an even larger. error in. thinking that the way you handle Trump. and his supporters is to work this hard. to reach them when they might not even.

be. reachable the best way to answer that. question is to tell you what they're. saying right now NBC management what. Management's saying is yes this was a. tactical error this was clearly the. wrong Republican we get it m but they're. saying we are going to and they said. this in their statement announcing that. they were severing ties with McDaniel. they said we're going to redouble our. efforts to represent a broad spectrum of. the American voter ship and that's what. they meant was that we're going to we're.

going to still try to reach these Trump. voters with people who can relate to. them and they can relate to but the. question is how do you even do that when. so many of his supporters believe a lie. how is NBC how is CNN how are any of. these TV networks if they have decided. that this is their mission how are they. supposed to speak to people who believe. something fundamentally untrue as a core. part of their po political. identity that's the Catch 22 how do you.

get that Trump movement person who's. also an Insider when the lip Miss test. to be an Insider in the Trump movement. is to believe in the denialism OR at. least say you do so that's a real. journalistic problem and and the thing. that we haven't really touched here is. what are these networks doing day in and. day out they're not producing reported. pieces which I where I think it's a. little easier you just report the news. you go out into the world talk to people.

and then you present it to the world as. a nuanced portrait of the country right. this thing is true this thing is false. again in many cases pretty. straightforward but their bread and. butter is Talking Heads it's live it's. not edited it's not that much reported. so their whole business model especially. again on cable which has 24 hours to. fill is Talking Heads and if you want. the perspective from the Trump movement. journalistically especially when it. comes to denialism but when it comes to. some other major subjects in American.

life you're walking into a place where. they're going to say things that aren't. true that don't pass your journalistic. standards the most basic standards of. journalism right so you're saying if TV. sticks with this model the kind of. lowcost lots of talk approach to news. then they are going to have to Solve the. Riddle of who to bring on who represents. Trump's America if they want that. audience and now they've got this red.

line that they've established that that. person can't be someone who denies the. 2020 election reality but like you just. said that's the litmus test for being in. Trump's orbit so this doesn't really. look like a conundrum this looks like a. bit of a crisis for TV news because it. may end up meaning that they can't hire. that person that they need for this. model which means that perhaps a network. like NBC does need to wave goodbye to a. big seg M of these viewers and these. eyeballs who support Trump I mean on the.

one hand they are not ready to do that. and they would never concede that that's. something they're ready to do the. problem is barring some kind of change. in their news model there's no solution. to this but why bar changes to their. news model I guess is the question. because over the years it's gotten more. and more expensive to produce news the. news that I'm talking about like. recorded packages and and what we refer. to is reporting just go out and Report. the news don't gab about it just what's.

going on what's true what's false that's. actually very expensive in television. and they don't have the kind of money. they used to have so the Talking Heads. is their way to do programming at a. level where they can afford it they do. some packages 60 Minutes still does. incredible work NBC does packages but. but the line share what they do is what. we're talking about and that's not going. to change because the economics aren't. there MH so then a final option of. course to borrow something Chris lck. said. is that a network like.

NBC perhaps doesn't put a jersey on but. accepts the reality that a lot of the. world sees them wearing a. jersey yeah I mean nobody wants to be. seen as wearing a jersey in our business. no one wants to be wearing a jersey in. our business but maybe what they really. have to accept is that we're just. sticking to the true facts and that may. look like we're wearing a jersey but. we're not and that may at times look.

like it's lining up more with the. Democrats but we're. not if Trump is lying about a stolen. election that's not sighing against him. that's ciding for the truth and that's. what we're. doing easier said than done and I don't. think any of these concepts are new I. think there have been attempts to do. that but it's the world they're in and. it's the only option they really. have we're going to tell you the truth. even if it means that we're going to.

lose a big part of the. [Music]. country well Jim thank you very much. thank you. [Music]. Michael we'll be right. back here's what else you need to. another. [Music].

day over the weekend thousands of. protesters took to the streets of Tel. Aviv and Jerusalem in some of the. largest domestic demonstrations against. the government of prime minister. Benjamin Netanyahu since Israel invaded. Gaza in the. [Music]. fall some of the protesters called on. Netanyahu to reach a ceasefire deal that.

would free the hostages taken by Hamas. on October 7th others called for early. elections that would remove Netanyahu. from. office during a news conference on. Sunday Netanyahu rejected calls for. early elections saying they would. paralyze his government at a crucial.

moment in the. war today's episode was produced by Rob. zipco Ricky neski and Alex Stern with. help from Stella tan it was edited by. Brendan clink BG with help from Rachel. quer and Paige cowt contains original. music by Marian lazano Dan Powell and. Rowan nisto and was engineered by Chris. Wood our our theme music is by Jim. runberg and Ben lurk of.

[Music]. [Applause]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Boro see you. [Music]. tomorrow.