Public Schools Have a New Crisis: Not Enough Students

From the New York [music] Times, I'm. Natalie Kitroeff. This is the Daily. American public schools are in the. middle of a crisis. [music] There aren't. enough students to fill their. classrooms. In some cities, enrollments have been. shrinking so dramatically that officials. say they have no choice but to close. schools [music] en masse. Today, my colleague, Sarah [music].

Mervosh, on one city's radical plan to. save its public schools and the parents. who think it will only doom them. [music]. It's Wednesday, [music] November 11th. >> Okay, this is Michael Simon Johnson, daily producer. I'm here with New York.

Times reporter Sarah Mervosh. here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. >> Hi. >> We are outside of a. middle and elementary school, Arsenal. >> Yes. Today is the first day of school in. Pittsburgh, and at the end of this. school year, a bunch of schools in Pittsburgh Public. Schools are slated to close. Arsenal's. Elementary School is one of them. And so. this is sort of the last first day of. school at this building as it is today. And next year, everything [music] is.

changing. >> [music]. >> Hello. How was summer? >> Awesome. >> Awesome. Glad to be back. >> Hey. >> Yeah. >> Can't wait for recess. >> Yeah. >> Good. Hello. Are you excited for the. first day? >> No. Not no more. >> Oh, I am. I'm so happy to see you. What's up, our new fifth graders? I. think she wants to What do you want to. say to them? >> My first day. >> Do Do you have a child who goes here? >> Yes. She is uh seven years old.

>> You like [music] Arsenal? >> Yes, I love it, Arsenal. >> What uh What do you like about Arsenal? >> Um, so I like science, reading, math, art, science, and soccer, and football. >> That sounds like most [music] of school. >> And do you know that the school is going. to be closing at the end of the year? [music]. >> Yeah, it's closing this year. Sad. because she has all her friends in here. and uh. but.

I don't know. >> We actually need [music] this school. In. particular, my daughter's autistic. We're worried is there going to be. enough staff? Is there going to be enough goals met? [music]. >> And you don't know where she's going to. go to school next year, is that right? >> No, I don't know yet. >> Been here for 21 years. Social studies. teacher. So I was here when it was just. a middle school. We had [music]. five sections of each grade. Now we have. two sections of each grade, so. >> So you've you've watched the decline. >> Yeah, I've been [music] here as a solid.

decline. I mean, this whole school used. to be just a middle school. Now it's. half middle, half elementary. >> So you don't know where you're going to. be [music] working next year. >> I don't even know if I'm going to have a. job because there's so many schools that. are closing. It's just so tough. >> It's bittersweet and it's an end of an. era. There's a level of sadness, [music]. but also like I'm not letting my mind. get there because um. we want this last year to be one that's. super [music] special. >> Happy first day of school. It is day one.

of our cycle when we have art, gym, library, and science. Today is Monday. Hello, Monday. You are a fresh start, [music] a new page, and a beautiful. opportunity to shine. Make sure you're. shining today. >> [music]. >> Sarah, welcome back to the show. >> Thank you. >> So let's dive right in. Help us.

understand the scope of what we're. talking about here, the enrollment. problem in public schools today, and why. this problem matters or should matter to. us. >> Well, just to give you a few stats, since about 2014 over the last decade, enrollment in K through 12 public. schools in the country has fallen in 30. states, and it's a problem that's. affecting a lot of major school. districts. So over the last decade, Los. Angeles public schools enrollment down. 20%, Houston down about 17%, Chicago.

17%. >> Jeez. >> Dallas 13%, Philadelphia 10%. I can go. on and on and on. And one reason it. matters how many kids are going to. school is because schools and school. districts get funding based on the. number of students that they have. So. they get money from the government and. it's all allocated per student. And in. some cases, districts have to actually. pay if they lose a student to say. charter schools. So there are real. financial consequences for schools. And.

one thing I think people don't realize. about running schools is if your school. shrinks by say 20%, you have fewer students, but you still. often need the same number of teachers. because the class sizes haven't shrunk. so much that you can just eliminate a. class. Um you still need a principal for. example. You have a whole building to. run. So the costs don't necessarily. scale down with the number of students. >> Right. And as you start losing kids, you. start losing money. I'm assuming that.

means you're starting to have to make. some choices about what to cut. You have. to cut something, right? >> Yes. And over the last year or so, we. are really seeing a lot of districts. starting to confront this problem and. painful budget decisions, cutting bus. routes, cutting substitute teachers, cutting the central office. And more and. more they're doing something that is. politically explosive, which is deciding. whether to close schools. >> And what does that look like, that. politically explosive decision making?

>> I think closing schools is one of the. most unpopular things you can do in. education. No one likes it. No one ever. wants it to happen to their school. As I was watching this debate play out. in districts across the country, I kept. seeing the same fight happening, which. is parents saying we don't want this and. districts saying we have to do. something. But on top of all of that, there's also. this other question at play, which is. about equality because our schools in. America are quite segregated by race and.

class. They still are today. And. especially in these big cities with lots. of kids and lots of different kinds of. kids in the same school system, when you. start to ask, are we going to close. schools? Which schools are we going to. close? You're actually asking who's going to be. affected? Which kids get prioritized? Who are we. going to serve? >> Interesting. So declining enrollment and. constrained resources end up forcing. people to engage with these really big. questions, it sounds like, about race,

about class, about who they want their. school systems to serve. >> Right. And in my hometown of Pittsburgh, they were actually a little further. along in the process than some other. places. And so I wanted to see how does. that actually play out? >> And what has it looked like in. Pittsburgh? >> Well, just for some context, Pittsburgh. is a place where the population has been. on the decline for many decades. The. population in the city of Pittsburgh. peaked in the 1950s, the [music] rise of. the steel industry. My grandfather was.

working in steel mills in Pittsburgh at. this time. [music] It was basically a. city with like lots of Catholic. families, Irish, Italian, Polish, immigrant working-class families. They. had lots of kids. The public school. system is thriving. [music]. And back then, there weren't tons of. options. You kind of went to the public. school, maybe you went to the Catholic. school, and that's about it. [music]. But that has changed. Over the last 70 some years, the. population has declined. And over the.

last decade or so in particular, >> What started as a temporary school. closure due to the coronavirus extended. through the end of the academic year for. Pennsylvania families. >> Like lots of other places around the. country, Pittsburgh Public Schools were. closed for a long time during the. pandemic. >> Since the beginning of the pandemic, Pittsburgh Public Schools have managed. to provide only a few weeks of in-person. instruction. Parents I spoke with say. they've lost confidence in the district. and are voting with their feet. >> They did lose a good number of kids.

>> Cyber charter schools are seeing an. enrollment spike that has them. approaching capacity. >> There's more choice. There's charter. schools. There's a little bit of. homeschooling. >> It's a generation of women choosing to. wait or not have children at all. >> And then there's just the fact that. people are having fewer kids. In the US broadly, the fertility rate. peaked in 2007 and it's pretty much been. declining since then. And if you kind of. do the math, babies that were born in. 2007 graduated high school in 2025. And.

so all of a sudden those kids are out of. the public school system and now. districts are facing down this. possibility of having fewer and fewer. kids going forward. >> Hm. [music]. >> And over the last decade in Pittsburgh, that meant that all of this combined, [music] they've lost about 25%. of their enrollment. >> Which is just huge. >> Yeah, this is something very real that. has to be contended with. >> [music]. >> And how does Pittsburgh choose to. contend with it, with this enrollment. problem?

>> Well, what they decide to do is actually. pretty controversial even beyond the. regular controversies of school. closures. They decide to not only try to solve. their enrollment crisis, but they also. are trying to use this moment to revamp. the school system and try to fix some of. the inequalities in the school system. >> How? How so? >> So you have to think about who goes to. the Pittsburgh Public Schools. The. student body is about two-thirds. economically disadvantaged. These are. largely from poorer families.

About half of the students are black, about a third of students are white, and. there's a smaller share of Hispanic and. Asian students. And in this plan, they don't only. propose closing the most under-enrolled. schools or the the lowest performing. schools, in part because they don't want the most. vulnerable kids in their school system, kids who are mostly lower income or. black, to bear the full burden of this. plan. And so what they do is they also propose. reconfiguring schools, reconfiguring.

grade bands, redrawing school boundary. lines across the city, which means that they also are closing, for example, a school for gifted and. talented kids, a high performing. elementary school in a wealthier part of. town, both of which serve higher shares. of white families. But one of the most controversial parts. of this plan is that they're getting rid. of magnet schools at the elementary. school level. and they're dramatically scaling back. from them at the middle school level. >> And just say what magnet schools. actually are.

>> So magnet schools are public schools in. the school district. They're part of the. Pittsburgh public school system, but you. can apply to them through a lottery. So. you can live anywhere in the city more. or less and you can apply to these. schools. Often magnet schools have some. sort of specialty like a foreign. language or arts and performing or. science and technology and that can be a. draw for families. And so the fact that they're doing this. is really interesting and there's a lot. of debate about what this is going to do.

to the school system because some people. feel like magnet schools are one of the. best things about the Pittsburgh public. school systems. Families have options. They actually draw people from different. neighborhoods and so it can be a more. economically and racially integrated. environment. But some other people feel like magnet. schools are kind of a way of doing white. flight within the school system where. families don't have to go to their. neighborhood schools. They can do this. magnet school option. And so by getting rid of magnets,

the district is saying we're going to. take away that lever of choice. We're. going to compel you to go back to your. neighborhood school. and we're going to put more resources. and invest in all of neighborhood. schools. >> But that does feel like a pretty bold. move to like in the interest of. equalizing this system close these. schools that aren't actually necessarily. under enrolled and are places that many. families are specifically choosing to. send their kids to.

>> Yes, and when this process started a few. years back almost immediately you have. lots of feelings about this, lots of. debate. >> [music]. >> Good evening ladies and gentlemen and. welcome to the November 25th 2024. Board of Public Education for Pittsburgh. Public. >> So the school board starts opening this. proposal up for comment. >> to Wednesday July 30th 2025 special. >> May 26 2026. >> And there's public hearing after public.

hearing. >> Each speaker has three minutes to speak. >> Where parents and teachers and students. >> My name is Erica Gidley. I'm a parent. and community member. >> I'm also a Pittsburgh resident and a 33. year veteran teacher. >> Hello. I'm a child in Pittsburgh. Montessori. >> I am back tonight to implore you all to. vote no on November 25th. >> All sorts of people are coming out to. say what they think of this plan and how. it's going to affect them and their. families and their kids. >> My kids are at home crying about their. schools. I don't want Allegheny to be.

closed or Manchester. >> Saying all the reasons why they. shouldn't close schools. >> Moving it to Linden makes nothing. better. In a matter of fact it makes. things worse. >> Many people say they like the magnet. program. >> I was deeply upset when I learned that. the district plans to remove all magnet. students and send them to their home. schools. If I felt like my home school. could provide a quality education for my. child [music] I wouldn't be standing. here today.

>> The gifted program and the magnet. programs quite simply are the best thing. about Pittsburgh public schools. >> One of the reasons we chose a magnet. school for our kids is because it. includes kids from all over the city. It. was important to me and my husband that. our children would learn and grow up. alongside kids from backgrounds. different from their own. >> And many say [music]. this change could actually drive. families away from the public school. system entirely. >> We parents should not have to seek out. alternative cyber or charter schools. We. want our children to continue at their.

current locations. >> This will only increase the problem for. low enrollment and deter families from. moving or staying in our city and the. neighborhood. >> All of this, in my opinion, will lead. not to resourced parents integrating. into public schools, but [music] to them choosing private. schools, continuing the downward spiral. of students and funding loss. >> And they're mad that they're not being. listened to. >> Don't [music] make any real changes. until you start talking to us. Work with. us. We are here to help. >> Do you even care about all the good.

arguments that you've heard? >> We are screaming at the top of our lungs. every month. >> Thank you for your testimony. >> [applause]. >> Now these parents who are coming out to. talk, lots of them are white. Not all of. them are, but they do come out in. disproportionate numbers. The school board is majority black. And. throughout this entire process, they're. saying they are listening. >> Yes, people are upset. Yes, change is. difficult. But yes, change has to be made. It has.

to be made. >> Everybody agrees that we have to close. buildings. Nobody wants to pick the. buildings. I know it's hard. I don't want to do any. of this. >> We are trying to expand for all of our. students to receive. the same education that a few schools. are getting right now. And I am speaking for those who have not. come out, who have not come out to speak. at public hearing. >> I always keep a very clear eye on the.

kids who have the most challenges in our. district. If we center them and we stop centering. the kids who have the most opportunity, if we center the kids who have the most. challenges, we will create a better. system. >> Mr. Weiss, >> can you please call the vote? >> Dr. Barker? >> Yes. >> And finally, in May of this year, >> Dr. Walker. >> They vote six to two with one school.

board member abstaining to close 12. schools. >> And the resolution is approved. >> Thank you all. Uh would now like to. before we move on to announcements. >> And the closures will happen at the end. of this school year. So this is the last. school year of status quo. And next year. everything's going to change. >> So this is all coming to a head, basically. >> Yes. Hi, Jean. >> Hey Sarah, how are you? >> I'm good. Can you hear me? >> I can hear you perfectly.

>> So I talked to the guy who ran all of. these meetings, the school board. president, Jean Walker. >> Currently serving as the school board. director for District 9, which is our. upper north side and west end. neighborhoods. >> And he is like all school board members. in Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania more. broadly. He's unpaid. He's there in a. volunteer capacity. He is elected, but. he's not paid. And I wanted to. understand like why do this? Why put. yourself on the line? Why be yelled at. like this? So in order to to understand. that, you kind of have to understand who.

this guy is. >> Yeah, I graduated from school formerly. known as Peabody High School in the mid. '90s, 1994. >> So Jean Walker is 50. He's black. He was. born and raised in Pittsburgh. He has. two kids that went through the school. system. And his son is now a public. school teacher. >> And my son is currently a teacher at. that same building, just a different. name that I graduated from. >> So he has a lot of personal investment. in the Pittsburgh public school system, but also Jean Walker told me that both.

he and his kids had this experience of. not having the most robust academic. offerings in the Pittsburgh public. school system and feeling the. consequences of that when they got to. college. >> I think the thing that stuck with me. most is watching my kids struggle when. they got to college. My son ultimately. was successful. My daughter decided that. college was not for her, but I realized. that. even though we had them in, you know, one of our higher performing schools, they just weren't ready for the rigors. of college. >> And what's his argument for why it's.

important to close these schools? >> There are two reasons. >> So I think his argument is twofold. One, he's arguing that there's a financial. benefit to doing this. >> When you have schools that are. inadvertently small, they are really. expensive to operate. And so by. consolidating, closing buildings, you. you're able to take that money that you. would otherwise spend on that building. and and redistribute it to schools that. are staying open. So there's a a fiscal. reason to it. The other is just from a a.

pure people standpoint. >> But then there's this other argument. which is about the resources and the. quality of the schools. >> When we have schools that are so small, they have a minimum faculty and staffing. that needs to be in those schools. And. that puts a strain on the rest of the. system. >> They feel like in the current setup. where enrollment is down and some. schools are getting smaller and smaller. and smaller, it's just too hard to offer. these services that families want and. need. So for example, I visited a middle.

school that has seen its enrollment. decline a lot over the years and it. isn't able to offer eighth grade. algebra. And why that matters is if. students take eighth grade algebra, they. can go on to take more advanced math in. high school, maybe calculus, and then be. better prepared for college. >> All right. So Walker's saying that the. district needs to close schools and. consolidate kids into fewer buildings, otherwise they're not using their. resources wisely and they can't actually. provide the programming that they need. to. >> Right. And he defends the decision to.

close almost all of the magnet schools. to move away from that strategy because. he believes that that is one of the. reasons that these neighborhood schools. are struggling to begin with, that they. don't have enough kids and they're not. getting the resources that they need. >> You know, one of the things that always. broke my heart was going to the bus stop. when there's a school within walking. distance of my house. And then I would. go to the bus stop and watch 50 kids get. on 10 different buses to go all over the. city. When in reality, I think.

what we would all hope as parents is. you know, we want our kids close. >> What the Pittsburgh Public School System. says is that magnet schools were. creating a lot of inequality in the. system. >> You know, the magnet school system at. its core was designed to keep. middle-class white families in the in. the school district by creating these. schools of choice. >> And their perspective was, look, we shouldn't just offer Spanish at. the Spanish magnet school. Every. elementary school should have Spanish.

We shouldn't just offer science and. technology at the magnet school. Every. school should have that. >> We need to look at like how do we. create a school in that community that. folks want to go to, right? If I'm. looking at a school where we can't. provide gym full-time because we don't. have a full-time gym teacher or there's. no art or there's no music, right? >> So the promise of the plan is that by. closing schools and taking on some. temporary short-term pain. that the district and the kids.

ultimately are going to be better off in. the long term because every elementary. school will be able to offer art, music, STEM, which is science, technology, engineering, math kind of things, and a. foreign language starting in third. grade. So they want every student to. have that. And then every middle school. will be able to offer things like eighth. grade algebra. That's the argument from. the district. >> The argument is this is going to lift. all boats, basically. >> Right. Even though there seems feels. like there's a lot of taking away, we're. really working hard to make sure that.

there's something added to every. building when the students walk in on. the first day of next year. >> One thing that I think is really. interesting that I've observed is what. they're asking families to do is kind of. make a bet that the district is going to. deliver on its promise. And if you're a. family at a a neighborhood school that. you don't like all that much and you. don't think is that great, this could be. good news for you. You could say, oh, my. school's going to get better. >> Right. >> But if you're one of these other. families who goes to one of these magnet. schools or to a high performing school.

you really like, what they're asking. those families to do is basically trade. something they're happy with. >> Mm. >> for potentially an equal or worse option. that they might not be happy with and. that is the rub. >> So for those families who don't have a. lot of confidence that this bet is. actually going to pan out for them, who. think look I don't like what's happening. here, what are they actually doing? It. sounds like they're making their voices. heard. Are they taking action? >> That is the choice that families all. across Pittsburgh are faced with right. now. So they have to make a choice.

pretty much this school year what. they're going to do next year and they. have a few options. They can go along. with this plan and say I'm going to try. what Pittsburgh is suggesting. They can consider leaving the school. system. They can try to go to a charter. school which is a public school outside. the district school system. They could. enroll in a private school if they can. afford it. Some are considering do I home school my. kid? That is the big question. How many. parents will leave because of this and. how many will stay to see it through?

And we reached out to a bunch of parents. [music] to really try to understand. how are they thinking about this? How. are they thinking about the tradeoffs? [music]. What are they planning? What are they. going to do? [music]. [music]. We'll be right back.

So Sarah, tell me about the. conversations that you've had with. parents, what their plans are and how. they're thinking about all these changes. to their schools. >> So I, along with two daily producers, Michael Simon Johnson. >> Can you just tell me your name and. >> and Stella Tan. >> Would you mind introducing yourself? So. your name and. >> Talked to more than a dozen parents. >> [music]. >> My name's Sean Mann. >> I am Emily Sawyer. >> Shannon Streiner. >> Naomi Chambers, single mother.

>> Jasmine Worthy. Born and raised in. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I graduated. from Pittsburgh Public Schools. All my. children are in Pittsburgh Public. Schools. >> I have a seven-year-old and a. 10-year-old. >> I have four in public schools. >> And this might be surprising, but one of. the reasons closing schools has been so. explosive is that even in schools that. are under enrolled. >> It's known as an under resourced school. >> Or even when parents acknowledge that. their [music] kids don't have everything. that they should have in their schools. >> of them don't have books that they.

should have. >> Lots of families are still pretty happy. with their school. >> I feel safe there. I know my children. do. >> I just let my kids roam in the school. [music] I don't even be caring. I know. they're safe. >> We're economically strained community. and there's a thing where my children. will come home with bags of food and. things like that. And [music] it's not. just them that'll come home with the. bag. So it's never a moment where. they're ostracized. It's like as a. community we're taken care of. It's like. kind of a family.

>> These are families that they've built. strong relationships at these schools. with other students, [music] with their. teachers. >> My son, he's been there since he was. four and they know him very well. He is. a little rambunctious sometimes, but they know how to talk to him and get. him back on track. They've seen him. grow. They know what he's into. [music]. They know he loves Pokémon. Like there's. certain things. >> And according to parents, this support. has had a huge [music] impact on their. kids. >> My 10-year-old Sienna has Down Syndrome.

She attends our neighborhood public. school, Fulton. They were the only. school [music] that ever made us feel. that the school wanted her to be there. >> What have your conversations been like. with Sienna about the changes coming up? >> She doesn't grasp it and I don't think. that she will fully grasp it until. [music] we're at her new school. I have. a feeling that the anxiety will creep up. on her right as we start. So I'm not.

putting too much attention on it now. I'm trying to enjoy our last year at. Fulton. In fact, she has the same teacher she had last. year and this morning before she left. for school, her teacher sent home a. book. And she read she read a book to me. before she went to school today and it. was. like one of the most amazing things. to to witness and. so we're just living in the joy of.

moments like that right now and making. the best of this last year at Fulton. with these amazing teachers and kids. The kids at Fulton are so welcoming and. loving and they make her feel like she. belongs there and um for us that's. that's a gift. >> So these families are feeling a real. sense of loss right now, a real sense of. grief around these closures. and they're also feeling anxious that. their kids may have to go to bigger. schools. >> You know, if our kids are coming from. relatively smaller class sizes and you.

put them in a big class and then if the. teacher is overwhelmed and the students. become overwhelmed I mean it just is a. trickle-down effect that I don't think. was thoroughly thought about. >> They're feeling worried about their. transitions. >> And then for me as his mom to not be. worried about my baby with is he. anxious? Is he scared? But if he's. breaking down and these teachers don't. understand him because he has had. behavioral issues in the past and it's. like. all right, well we know Elijah, we know. he's my emotional one so we deal with it.

accordingly, but a different teacher. will just be like. he needs to go. sit in a corner somewhere and isolate. him so. >> Will their kids regress academically? Will they have the sense of belonging? Like what is going to be the situation. in these new schools and will their kids. be able to make it through that and. still learn and thrive? >> Right, it makes sense that they would be. anxious about such a big change, but. they were sending their kids to schools. that were presumably suffering under the. previous system, right? Like they were.

under enrolled, they were resource. starved. So I'm just wondering, do these. parents believe in the idea that there. might be real benefits here, improvements for their kids? >> Well, we asked them that question. >> So, the promise from the school board is. that at the new schools, everyone is. supposed to get art, music, STEAM or. STEM, PE, foreign language, all these. different programs that not every school.

has. How do you feel about that promise? >> I feel. >> Excited? >> No. I feel numb. I'm very apprehensive that. that's going to actually be the case. with this. >> And some of them are pretty skeptical of. what the school board is promising and. whether it can deliver. >> Yeah, I I don't believe them. I just don't. If they've neglected Asat Miller, I. don't think they're all of a sudden.

going to start pumping resources to Wow. They just keep telling us to trust them. and they've given us no reason to. >> Interesting. So, the families that you. spoke to who stand to benefit from. getting more from the district, it. sounds like they're not sold. What about. the families whose kids are already in. relatively high-performing, well-resourced schools, including some. of those magnet schools? I'd have to. imagine they're even more skeptical of. this plan. >> Definitely. And one thing we heard from.

them was a concern that all of these. changes could erode the quality of. education at some of the more desirable. higher-performing schools in the. district. >> Mm. >> So, several parents talked about this. one school in particular, SciTech, which. is a premier magnet school in. Pittsburgh. It's focused on science and. technology. It draws kids from all over. the city. They apply to go there. They. want to go there for this curriculum. But under the new system, it's going to. be merged and kind of become partial. magnet, partial neighborhood school.

And the kids who are going to be coming. in from the neighborhood are coming in. from a a. where very few students at the school. are proficient in math and reading. And so, current and prospective SciTech. parents were worried about this. >> If you look closer into the SciTech. neighborhood school, you'll understand. that that program is specific to very. high performing science and math based. programs. Yet, they're going to go just. throw a bunch of kids that live in the. neighborhood into that school. Well, they're not going to keep up the.

standards that they were expected to. have and the school. >> so the question for some parents is how. do you maintain the academic rigor that. we came here for? And also for other. parents, how are you going to support. the new kids coming in? Are you going to. set everyone up for success? >> Right. >> And fundamentally, many parents just. aren't bought in. They don't have enough. evidence yet to believe that the school. board's plan will accomplish what it was. meant to accomplish, which was keeping. students in the public school system and. making it more equitable.

>> Can you say more about that? Like beyond. their fears that academic standards. could go down at some of the more sought. after schools, why don't they believe. that the system as a whole would become. more equitable with all these changes? >> I think the best argument we heard came. from this one parent. >> My name is Abigail Folds and I have two. boys and one. >> thought that magnet schools. played a big role in offering equity and. access to opportunity in the district. >> You know, people love to say that that. was the thing to keep the white kids in.

the district and everything, but also, you know what it does? It gives an. opportunity for some kids that can't. afford to live in a richer area to have. a education at maybe a different school. and that will no longer be an option. >> And she speaks to her own personal. experience going to magnet schools and. sending her kids to magnet schools. >> I grew up going to Pittsburgh Public. Magnet Schools and it was freeing to go. and meet other people across the city. Neighborhoods are stifling in a lot of.

ways. You know, this whole notion of. being able to be free and reinvent. yourself. and being able to decide who you are and. not be pigeonholed a certain type of. kid. That is very much the experience of. my family members have had. >> Basically, she says that magnet schools. can be a way out. Your zip code doesn't. have to be your destiny. And she. actually thinks that getting rid of. magnet schools runs the risk of. reinforcing housing segregation and. making schools more segregated. >> How? How so?

>> Because if you get rid of the magnet. schools, she thinks the affluent. families who already mostly choose. affluent neighborhoods will 100% choose. affluent neighborhoods. >> I live in a quote-unquote undesirable. neighborhood, and I think people would. not move to my neighborhood if they knew. they had to go to the neighborhood. school which is. >> They're not going to consider living in. neighborhoods that maybe they would have. if they knew that they could go to. school somewhere else. >> Mm. >> This is what makes education and. education policy so complicated because.

you have school segregation and you have. housing segregation and it all. interplays and intermixes. >> Right. >> But even if you buy the district's. argument that basically we're going to. funnel resources into these schools, we're going to give students art, music, STEM, algebra, we're going to give them. all the same access and opportunities, some parents are saying that's naive. >> Yes, you might get an algebra teacher at. the school, but how many more kids will. be prepared for algebra? Do you know what I mean? Like, will we.

have improved our education system at. large? I just don't have any reason to. believe that's true. >> I think it's hard to make a good school. If you take one of the schools that's. struggling and you just build a band. room, is that going to do it? Like, is. that is the art teacher going to fix it? Or is it something else? >> We have made all kinds of educational. changes and adjustments and we're just. constantly tinkering with the education. system and the same kids continue to get.

left behind. And I just don't see the district with. strong plans to make those improvements. >> And the. >> whole plan basically requires families. to go back into their neighborhood. schools, but some of them are just saying like. this doesn't make a lot of sense because. there are other choices that we have. outside the public school system. >> there's charter schools. People can. still leave and now they just don't have. an option within the Pittsburgh public.

school system. People already are. leaving and people will just flee and. flee and flee and it'll be a race to the. bottom. >> So you've closed one lever that was. perhaps contributing to inequality, but. then there's this other lever over here, charter schools, homeschooling, maybe private school that you're not. even addressing. >> And how many of these parents are. actually going to leave? >> Well, there's some preliminary. enrollment data from this school year. that suggests that some number of.

families, several hundred families, primarily families of means, left the. school system this year. Was that. because of this? Was that because of. something else? Hard to say. definitively, but the fact that it was. primarily families. who are more economically better off. suggests that families who do have. choices to make are using that choice. And I talked to one mom who is one of. those parents. >> So I have a third grader. We actually. pulled him this year to go to private.

school. The word on the street and we've. seen it is that private schools in. particular are expecting. a huge exodus of kids from this area to. go to private schools. So we decided to get a jump on that. this year as opposed to next year. In. fact, his class size at the private. school has doubled since last year. >> Wow. She pulled one of her children out to go. to a private school and is planning to. pull her second child out to go to a. private school and she was pretty torn.

up about it. So tell me a little bit. about your decision to already take your. third grader out and you have plans to. take your sixth grader out. Yeah, tell. me more about that. >> I mean. you know, tearing up. [snorts]. Since the beginning of this process, which started. two summers ago, or three, maybe three. summers ago at this point, it just feels like no matter what the. parents say or try, um, our input is not.

being taken part of. >> She is someone who was extremely. involved in her kids' public school, but. she just felt like it was too disruptive. for her family. >> Me and my husband. [laughter]. Sorry. It's a little. >> Take your time. >> Cuz we both come from both of our. mothers were teachers. My sister's a. teacher in public school. We. It's a hard decision to not send our. kids to public school, but.

our philosophy is this is how we take. it. We did not give up on public school. Public school gave up on our children. >> But there are a lot of parents who are. staying, even some of the parents who. were showing up at those public board. hearings, so critical, so upset. I am a white, middle-class mom. I do. think white and privileged people have a. responsibility. to stick, to stay and be in these.

schools. I have white boys who don't need to be. centered in at least one aspect of their. life. I mean, um, we're sort of in the bull's-eye of. the hegemony, so. I think it's really important for them. to have an experience where they are off. balance and learning to get along with. different people. I just think it's one of the most. important things that I could do as a. parent of white boys is give them an. experience like that. >> I deeply believe in the idea of public.

schools as important to the democracy of. our people, and I just could not give up. on public schools. I just. theoretically have to commit to. the good of Pittsburgh public schools. and public schools for all. >> Some of them have just decided like I'm. a public school parent and I'm staying. I'm going to see this through. >> Did you consider private or charter? >> Uh yeah, I can. Unfortunately like.

I'm sad to admit that. yep, yep. I've considered it. I didn't. give it too much thought. Um I want to say. no matter where my kids go, they'll be. fine cuz they got me. But there's also a. weight with that because. there's that tug of war. If I take my. kids and put them somewhere else, it's. either going to be charter or it's going. to be private. And. being a public education advocate, then. I'm a hypocrite.

But then also, is it better for my kids? Yeah, it's it's tug of war over here. And it's exhausting. >> Also, I think there's just I've observed. some level of of shame around like if I. make a different choice in this moment, am I abandoning the public school. system? Like what is okay for me to do. in this situation? >> We moved here for the public schools and. so I I kind of don't want to just bail. But like everybody kind of moved up one. notch on the how willing are you to bail.

spectrum, you know? >> Mhm. [laughter]. >> And so for some people maybe they have. kind of already felt like they were. about ready to send their kids someplace. else and so they just did. And I think that there's going to be a. bunch of people for whom the district is. kind of on probation. We'll we'll see. how that first year goes. >> [music]. >> I think it is your duty as a like a lot. of my friends are educated privileged. It is your duty to participate [music]. and send your kids to Pittsburgh public.

schools. And I was very adamant about. that and probably annoyed lots of my. friends. But I don't say it anymore. because too much is up in the air. >> It's hard for me to imagine totally. pulling out of the district. But I mean. I I'm more committed to my kids than I. am to the public [music] school. district. So if I. if I felt like that's what we needed to. do, then. I would definitely leave. >> And others are [music] going to try it. before making a radical change.

But. whether parents are staying or going for. now, the common theme that I'm hearing. you talk about through all this is just. an extreme skepticism on the part of. these families and a sense that. trust has been lost. And if that kind of. continues and if that pushes more. parents to ultimately decide to take. their kids out of the system, that would make this whole plan. backfire, right? And make the enrollment.

problem that produced this in the first. place even worse. So. I'm wondering how does Gene Walker, the. kind of spokesperson for this plan, respond to that? >> Well, he acknowledges that this is a. possibility, but he still believes that. it's the best option. We've heard people. say that school closures. could actually drive families away, that. this is not going to save the district, but actually be its demise or worsen. your problem. What do you make of that?

>> Yeah, I mean that's a tough one. Uh it. it is kind of like a chicken and an egg. conversation, right? Which comes first? Uh people leaving or needing to close. schools. But I think ultimately uh it. will be up to us. uh as a school district to fulfill our. promise. Uh and we can't let the threat. of people leaving be the reason why we. don't do the make the decision that's. necessary. Because if we make the decision, people. might leave. If we don't make the. decision, people might leave. And so I. think there there's always that risk.

But if and when we are done with this. process and we've done it successfully, the quality of education that we will. provide will be the thing that brings. people back to Pittsburgh, not the. buildings. >> But he is very aware of what he's asking. of families. >> This is a really hard thing to ask. parents to do. because our kids are in school for such. a short period of time that a change. like this is massive. But ultimately, as. a school board, we have an obligation. not just to the students that we have.

currently, but to the students that we. will have 10, 15, 20 years from now, to. create a system that is durable enough. to take care of their needs long after. many of us are done in these positions. Um. >> Sarah, you've been covering education in. America for years now, and I'm just. wondering after going deep on this case. study of Pittsburgh and how it's dealing. with this national problem of declining. enrollment in public schools,

what is your takeaway about how the rest. of the country should be dealing with. this? >> Well, Pittsburgh has chosen to deal with. this in a pretty specific way, and I. think one takeaway is the way that. they're dealing with it is trying to. raise the floor for all students, and. specifically for the more vulnerable. students that make up the majority of. their school system. But the way that they decided to. confront it, in focusing on trying to. lift the floor, they weren't paying as.

much attention to the ceiling. The. students who maybe were higher. achieving, maybe wealthier, have more. agency and options in their family, and there might be a leak at the top. There might be a leak through the. ceiling. And that's a gamble, I think, that Pittsburgh Public Schools is. making. That is how they're doing it. Other districts might take a different. path, and. either way, you kind of have some risk. to that. Because as I look around the. country, the typical pattern that I see. is districts have this problem with.

enrollment. They kind of put it off year. after year. There's controversial. meetings. They don't do it. They don't. do it. And then finally, you have to. start doing something. And districts are often faced with a few. different choices, none of which are. good. So you could do the Pittsburgh. path. You close schools. It's very. controversial. There's another option where you. actually try to right-size your staff. for your shrinking student population. So you try to really. lay off teachers, which is very. unpopular and in some cases is not even.

possible because of different union. negotiations. No easy solution here, but what I think is clear is that. districts around the country are. increasingly facing the reality that. they can't put their heads in the sand. [music]. And I look around the country and. Philadelphia voted to close schools, Austin voted to close schools, LA, Portland, they're having these. [music] discussions. And so in some ways this is a bigger. societal problem, all now coming to.

roost for public schools. [music] And I. think increasingly school districts are. realizing we have to face it. >> [music]. >> Well Sarah, [music] thank you so much. >> Thanks Natalie. >> [music].

[music]. [music]. [music]. >> We'll be right back. [music] Here's what else you need to. know today. On Tuesday, House Republicans banded. together [music] to shelve an effort to. impeach Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. on eight separate charges, including.

violating the Constitution to wage war. in Iran. The House voted 211 to 204 to refer the. articles of impeachment [music] to a. committee, which allows Republicans to. slow the process at least until. Democrats take control next year. Only one Republican, Representative. [music] Thomas Massie of Kentucky, who. spearheaded the effort, voted with. Democrats against doing so. [music]. And House Republicans elected.

Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio to be. their leader in the next Congress, [music] elevating a firebrand who's been. a close ally of President Trump. Jordan, who's the current chairman. [music] of the Judiciary Committee, will. replace Speaker Mike Johnson next year. He'll play a critical role in his. party's [music] efforts to chart a path. back to the majority, as well as to. shield Trump and [music] his. administration from Democrats'. congressional investigations. [music].

Today's episode was produced by Michael. Simon Johnson, Stella [music] Tan, Alex. Stern, and Claire Tennis Getter. It was. edited by Lisa [music] Chao, fact-checked by Andrea Lopez-Cruzado, contains music by Marion Lozano, and was. engineered [music] by Alyssa Moxley. Our. theme music is by Wonderly. Special thanks to Paige [music] Cowett.

[music]. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. See you tomorrow. [music].