One Strongman, One Billion Voters, and the Future of India

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily India the world's largest. democracy is in the midst of a national. election and India's prime minister. Narendra Modi is running to extend his. 10 years in power Modi has become one of. the most consequential leaders in. India's history but he is also one of. its most controversial drawing criticism.

for anti-democratic practices and. charges of religious. persecution today my colleague mujib. mashall on the many Narendra Modis and. which one India will get in his historic. third. [Music]. [Applause]. term it's Thursday May 9th.

[Music]. so mujib you are covering India's. elections which is of course an enormous. undertaking it's a country of over a. billion people so the election takes. weeks and we are right now in the middle. of that process so first of all where do. things stand now in the race well it's. hard to know exactly right now there's. so much noise around the campaigning and.

both sides Prime Minister Modi and his. opposition are pitching their side but. most observers expect Modi to be the. favorite in this race because of his own. popularity this race has become a test. of the popularity of a leader who's been. in power for 10 years and who has a. confidence that even if his party's. struggling his popularity can lift up. their chances and that's what I want to. talk to you about his popularity I want.

to understand how that fits with the. other thing I think of what I think of. Modi which is his authoritarian. Tendencies and the last time you and I. talked it was after a political. assassination in Canada that had been. traced back to Mod's government so how. is it that Modi has managed to become. such a prominent durable figure in India. in the world's largest democracy so I've. been in India for over three years now.

and one of the central questions that. has fascinated me is exactly that he. just has this enormous grip over the. imagination of what is a hugely diverse. country the number of languages the. number of ethnicities the number of. religions you know across 1.4 billion. people and and a huge geography but he. just has this Talent of making them feel. one making them feel United as the new.

India that he imagines and he's put. himself at the center of reimagining. what it means to be Indian in this age. and how is he doing that mujib a lot of. it comes from the fact that he knows. this country very well that he's. traveled he's spent time across the. districts so he understands I think the. pulse of this country very well but he. also does it by using technology by.

using both old and new methods by. constantly painting narratives that. project India as this one nation on the. March and one of the ways he does that. is through this monthly radio show that. he has a monthly radio show kind of like. FDR's fireside chat sort of but a lot. more personal in the way that he draws.

on his own story that most Indians are. very familiar with that here is a man. very much like them that he comes from a. really humble economic background you. know his father was a te- Celler also in. India's rigid cast hierarchy he is not. from the top communities and also that. he has dedicated his life almost. entirely to what he says is his Nation. the national cause he doesn't have a. family he was married at one point but.

he sort of separated from his wife and. he never talks about it he always. projects himself as a bachelor who. Around the Clock only thinks about. India and this comes into the radio. show the range of topics that he. discusses lifestyle related disase from. Health to food and nutrition to. transport.

drone to technology it's almost like. telling the listeners that all his time. is spent thinking about all the issues. that could pertain to their. lives he's got advice for them he's got. thoughts for them and the way he does it. is in a very personable. way where he has callers connect where.

he. jokes where he references the places. he's visited in the. country he makes it very relatable. across a huge nation and he goes into. issues that might be very local to a. community and then he tries to connect. it to a national narrative and then he. goes to issues that are.

very crosscutting for example exam. preparations right this is a country. that cares about its studies and every. year around the exam period Modi becomes. their favorite exam tutor he does this. on the radio show but he does a special. broadcast for exam. preparation where sort of fills the hall.

with students and he gets up almost as a. tet talk speaker you know he walks. around with pointers he walks around. with that kind of confidence and he. knows that here are 16 17 18 year olds. potential voters in the future but even. for their. families he is a man who tells them hear. it from me.

as someone like you who has made it Big. M here are some of the things that. worked for. [Music]. me so he's basically connecting with the. Indian people kind of somewhere between. like Oprah and Dr Phil on American. television basically basically that that. that actually might be a better.

reference than FDR in a way just the. range of things that he addresses and. the tone in which he does and sort of. this hope of Mobility this hope of. making it right he personifies that as. well and there's something hugely. powerful about that and he's very. consistent in it as well since he rose. to National Power 10 years ago he's.

barely missed an episode wow so every. month he is in the years of this huge. country right and wherever the. information space moves he wants to be. there whether it's the Billboards. whether it's the radio whether it's the. television and especially social media. right this is something that he. understood much earlier than other. Indian leaders the value of social media.

across a country this huge to get your. message um particularly a country that. is very rapidly digitizing right and a. country that's so young exactly a. country that is so young a country. that's so huge and and a country that. has access to cheap smartphones cheap. data so he understood this very well and. in the past few years he senses that. some of the people some of his potential. voters.

might actually be shifting to these. independent spaces of information the. YouTube show people the Instagram. influencers and all and he wanted to be. there he wanted to make sure all of them. project him and his image the same way. so what did he. do just a couple months before the. election he held this huge award. ceremony for the influenc. ladies and gentlemen join your hands.

together for the influencer of the. influencers the OG the goat honorable PM. Narendra Modi. G for 2 hours he was standing on stage. and the best Storyteller award goes to. Kika goind dasami and he was handing out. award after award to hundreds of. influencers from across India and the.

next category is disruptor of the Year. award while the hall filled with people. who have millions of followers across. these different platforms all of them. had their phones out recording Modi on. stage you know giving him a pat on the. back you know dropping a little detail. having something relatable with each one. of these young folks who came on stage. to receive the award from.

him you know so it's just somebody who. is so sharp to latch on to every. opportunity to connect with a pocket of. audience and that was on. display just imagine the power of those.

hundreds of influencers with millions of. followers across these platforms walking. out of that Hall thinking one of the. most powerful men in the world not only. had time for us but he made us feel that. he knew us right mhm and what they will. do to then carry his. [Music]. message and this is what a successful. politician is right they connect with.

voters and they find people that can. spread their message but a successful. politician is also someone who gives. people a story about what their country. is and who they are in it they help. people understand themselves as Citizens. so what is Modi actually telling them. what is that story well it's a story of. India's rise think of a country coming. out of you know a long history of. colonial oppression a foreign Invasion.

he is telling the same people that we. finally found our footing that we're. being respected on the world stage that. our economy is growing that The Prestige. of what it is to be Indian now is. changing on the world stage that for the. longest time the world treated us as. this poor country where you had to send. Aid now the world is treating us as a. major power that can offer Solutions and.

again the way he communicates this is. very important one of the things he did. recently was to have Bill Gates over. Bill Gates as in Bill Gates Bill as in. Bill Gates as in for all in you know. intensive purposes in the Indian mind. the man who invented computers. right and modi's government actually. released a full you know very heavily.

produced video to promote that visit and. that conversation between Modi and. Gates morning great to see. you you know these beautiful sort of. video shots of Drone footage and music. and all of this he shakes hands with. Modi and they sit down for a. [Music]. conversation but the body language in. this conversation is very important. uh I'm just curious in terms of your.

journey of using you know PCS or phones. or different types of software was there. uh something that really Drew you in or. how what's that been like Bill Gates is. asking a lot of the questions he's. asking an English Mod's answering in. Hindi and Modi is giving him the. solutions right on techn ology on sort.

of how do you spread technology to The. Villages how do you sort of inject. technology into simplifying. governance and what this is telling his. audience is that I have brought India to. a stage where the man who's associated. with computers is coming to me for. answers right right I'm the guy giving. that computer inventor the answers. exactly exactly and again that's a.

powerful thing right that if you were a. village boy you know a teenager. somewhere deep in rural India and you. watch this man in a suit asking the. questions and you watch the man who. speaks your. language giving him the answers and. explaining to him how the world should. work and what the solutions are to the. AI problems of the world what the. Solutions are to you know incorporating.

technology in agriculture he is. reinforcing the same narrative that I. have made it for I am Clinging On to the. identity that is very Indian and look. the world is coming for answers that my. country truly is on the top of the world. my country is on the top of the world. but my country is on the top of the. world on its own terms in terms of. holding on to a cultural identity as.

well that my country can advance and. sort of progress without necessarily. letting go of its cultural values and it. could offer the world Solutions in terms. of technology and modernity so Mod's. very skillfully leveraging this Gates. visit right he's using it to drive home. his Central message which is India is on. top of the world I'm on top of India and. even the inventor of the personal. computer is coming to me for technology.

advice so that's the story he's telling. yes but on the ground it's a much more. mixed. reality yes India's economy is growing. but it's an economy that is not helping. lift up a lot of people that it's a. deeply unequal economic reality in this. country you've got the fastest growing. economy in the world it's become the. fifth largest economy in the world and.

yet unemployment is a major problem it. can't generate enough jobs for its huge. youth population and 800 million people. are dependent on government ration. handouts every month but Modi in his. sort of control of the information space. and in his political cunning he defines. these handouts and rations as. development. that looked you are getting help from.

the government you're not starving that. looked uh you might not get a job but. you know you got a gas cylinder your mom. got a gas cylinder a gas cylinder like a. propane take for cooking yes and the. political Genius of it is in how he then. follows up he's created this huge. welfare state where he uses resources. from a topheavy economy to give handouts. to the poor and then after those.

handouts have been given he's got a huge. party apparatus that knocks on each door. and says remember that monthly ration of. rice and doll and cooking oil that you. got that came from Modi and in a lot of. these places his picture is on it his. picture is on this sort of uh government. stores that gives the handout. interesting like the picture of his face. yeah the picture of his face his picture. was on the vaccine certificate that.

every person in this country got he does. not miss an opportunity to be in the. face of every citizen of this country to. tell them whatever solution you're. getting is from my end interesting so. he's essentially giving people these. essential things but he's taking pains. to make sure that people really down to. the household level understand that he's. the one giving them his face is there. like really branding it as his own.

accomplishment yes and I think one part. of it is his Mastery of narrative. building and communication but the other. part of it is the economic context of. this country that for the longest time. these sections of society that we talk. about what he's giving them is more than. what they had before him yeah they were. always so weak and so poor and the state. was failing them for so long that even a. small passion handout a month is a sign.

of an improved state is a sign of a. changed India and he drives that point. home by The Narrative he builts around. it that hey I've given you a little bit. imagine how much more I can give you if. India keeps Rising so it sounds like. Modi has really found this very unique. recipe to speak to this incredibly vast. country he's organized with his party. machine and his face on aid but he's.

also deeply appealing and present in. almost every Indian's life and that's. kind of the textbook definition of a. skilled politician yes that's one. version of. Modi but there's also another Modi a. more divisive even dangerous Modi and. we've seen that side of him come out in. recent weeks. [Music]. [Laughter].

we'll be right. [Music]. back so mujib tell us what happened over. the past couple of weeks what changed. over the past couple weeks in this. election campaign is all of a sudden. Mod's rhetoric directly started. targeting Muslims. all his life he spent as a foot soldier.

of a right-wing Hindu organization. called the RSS and the goal of that. organization has always been to turn. India into a Hindu State the secular. Republic that India was created as in. 1947 after the British left uh they see. that as unfair so Mr Modi comes from. that kind of a background and so in his. 10 years in office as Mr MO. firmed up this vision of a Hindu first.

state many of his policies were seen as. discriminatory towards Muslims India's. 200 million Muslim minority population. beyond the basics of welfare the states. sort of allowing Muslims participation. in the political space in the cultural. space has shrunk completely during his. time and Modi himself in those years. would continue targeting of the Muslims.

but in a very subtle way he would make. references to their clothes he would. make references to their choice of food. he had all these ways of referring to. Muslims but then he did two things one. is he mentioned the Muslims by name and. then second thing he did was to define. the Muslims as Outsiders as infiltrators. who don't belong here who've intruded. into his vision of the Indian. Society he started saying that if his.

opposition comes to. power they will take the wealth of the. Hindus and they will give it to the. [Music]. Muslims and he didn't just say wealth. land property he said they would take. the women's jewelry.

[Music]. they would take the necklace that Hindu. women wear as a sign of their marriage. so he went very specific to something. that is very associated with honor and. not just. wealth and then as he repeated the point. the way these sort of you know populist. politicians do he threw a question to. his.

audience a huge crowd of the campaign. rally and he said do you want your. wealth to go to the. [Music]. infiltrators so he's kind of saying the. quiet part out loud here right that. Muslims. are not actually part of this big.

National project even though they are as. you say 15% of the population of India. they are Indian citizens so it seems. like a pretty big deal that Modi himself. would say this right I mean why did he. say this do you. think we were all left wondering why. would he Veer from a formula that had. worked for him that others will do the. Dirty Work of directly targeting Muslims.

where he would just make subtle. references and that was good enough. particularly in a moment where he. projects himself as a global Statesman. as somebody who believes in these. Democratic Values but I think the place. where he made this comment give us Clues. it was in the state of rajastan in sort. of Northern India this Northern more. populated belt of India that is his. stronghold and within that state there's.

talks that some of the Hindu casts were. not happy with. him that there was. discontent. and as a way of uniting the Hindu. divisions within his support base he has. always United them against someone. against something and that someone and. something has consistently the. Muslims so despite his popularity he's.

anxious about the margin of his victory. and kind of resorted to this nasty form. of nationalism to bring out his Hindu. base to kind of bring together those. divisions yes and it has worked for him. in the past this sort of Hindu Muslim. division this fear of the Muslim has. helped him overcome his other moments of. political weakness but mujib just to. play devil's advocate for a second here. I mean isn't it possible that these.

things are all signs that he's actually. feeling very secure you know that he's. not just resorting to this to bring out. his base but that he's feeling so secure. that he's able to just kind of wear this. ethnonationalism on his sleeve and do. these very illiberal things because you. know he's so powerful and popular that. it doesn't. matter that's one possibility absolutely. that this is the peak of uncheck power. that I can govern this country and I can.

use the levers of power in any way I. want the institutions and I can say. whatever I want that there will be no. checks on it domestically and we're. seeing this he's resorting to crackdowns. on the opposition he's resorting to. throwing opposition leaders in jail he. is resorting to drying up the source of. funding for his political opponents to. kind of tilt the playing field in his.

favor and there's also this security. that internationally beyond the borders. of India nobody will say anything at all. because he's created the sense. of his story his power is so. intertwined with the story and the power. of this Rising India and for these. outside countries who want deals with. India who want trade with India one. transactions with India he is confident.

that they will not criticize him that. they will not stand up and say your. Crossing Lines right so mujib we've been. talking about Modi as a leader with just. this wild popularity in part because his. vision of a shining Modern India appeals. to a lot of people but there's also this. darker streak this Hindu fundamentalism. that we've been talking about and I. guess the the kind of amazing and.

confounding thing about India and about. Modi is that all of these things are. true so if you had to come up with a. category for Modi what would you say I. guess the fascinating thing about him is. that he's not easy to label one thing. I've learned in my years of reporting. here is that he's many things at once. he sees. himself as.

someone who after the founding fathers. of India right after the founding. fathers of this. Republic he speaks of an. ambition that no prime minister before. him would speak of in the way of. completely. reshaping this country for the. future but at the same time. he is someone who has.

demonstrated. that he is amassing power around himself. that he's. consistently brushing aside any checks. on his power that he has an. ideology that does not see this. country's entire population as equal. that that ideology. has a vision of a first class Citizen.

and a second class. Citizen. and which one of these many. modies we see in the future it's hard to. tell but in moments of tension and in. moments when he is anxious that darker. sight comes out more clearly and the. efforts at a Visionary Statesman that. wants to pull up the entirety of this.

country to that sort of higher place. that he has in mind ends up taking a. back. seat mujib thank you thank. [Music]. you we'll be right back. [Music].

here's what else you should know today. on. Wednesday well hello everyone it's just. another Wednesday on Capital. Hill I for the second time in less than. a year republicans in Congress sought to. depose their own speaker in the House of. Representatives but this time the effort. failed the attempt was made by. representative Marjorie Taylor of. Georgia house Speaker Mike Johnson.

easily batted it down I I uh I want to. say that I appreciate the show of. Confidence from my colleagues to defeat. this misguided effort that is certainly. what it was Johnson survived because. Democrats came to his rescue the vote to. kill Green's effort was an overwhelming. 359 to. 43 the democrat's support allowed. Johnson to avoid the messy Showdown on. the house floor that had led to the. historic ouster of former speaker Kevin.

McCarthy last fall green had threatened. to make the move for weeks since Johnson. pushed through a long-stalled $95. billion foreign aid package to Ukraine. and Israel in the end her effort was. largely symbolic green was widely booed. by lawmakers as she called up the. resolution and read it. aloud and they go into Rafa I'm not. supplying the weapons that have been.

used historically to deal with Rafa to. deal with the cities to deal with that. problem a day after the White House. acknowledged that it had halted the. shipment of 3,500 bombs to Israel last. week out of concern that they might be. used on Jerusalem's planned assault on. Rafa in southern Gaza President Biden. told CNN in an interview that he would. also block the delivery of weapons and. artillery shells that could be fired. into densely populated areas of Rafa.

Biden also acknowledged that American. bombs had been used to kill Palestinian. civilians Biden's remarks underscored. the growing Rift between the US and. Israel over its war in Gaza but it's uh. it's it's just wrong we're not going to. we're not going to supply the weapons. and the artillery shells. used today's episode was produced by ASA. chatra ER krupy will Reed Shannon Lyn.

and summer tamod it was edited by. Brendan clink BG and Michael benois. contains original music by Rowan Nimo. Marian Lozano and Dan Powell and was. engineered by Chris Wood our theme music. is by Jim brunberg and Ben Lanser of. wonderly. [Music]. [Music].

that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina. tavernes see you tomorrow. [Music].