On the Ballot: An Immigration System Most Americans Never Wanted

from New York Times I'm Michael borro. this is the. daily if Donald Trump wins next week's. election it will be in large part. because voters Embrace his message that. the country's immigration system is. broken today David leonhart on the. surprising story of how that system came. to be the very real tradeoffs it's. required.

and just how little it reflects what. Americans really want from. [Music]. immigration it's Tuesday October. [Music]. 29th hi David hello Michael it's really. nice to have you in the studio I don't. think we've ever done this in person. before I have never been in the studio. I've always been remote in Washington it. is great to be here overdue so David.

we're talking to you today because you. have been studying an issue that voters. in this campaign for president. consistently rank among their top. concerns and that is immigration and yet. you contend that the way we talk about. this issue the way we understand it is. very incomplete and that we tend to. think about it in far too narrow a light. as a question of what's happening at the. US Mexico border when there's so much. more to the subject of immigration.

and we wanted you to help us understand. that Fuller picture and how and why. immigration has become so Central to. this election and how it may influence. the outcome of next week's election so. that's a lot where should we start well. first I understand why people are so. focused on the here and now we've had a. historically large increase in. Immigration under Joe Biden's presidency. Donald Trump of course made immigration. Central to his brand even before that.

increase our border is open nobody can. believe it he talks about it all the. time we're a Dumping Ground we're like a. we're like a garbage can for the world. KLA Harris actually has talked a lot. about immigration as well the United. States is a Sovereign Nation and I. believe we have a duty to set rules at. our border and to enforce them she has. promised that she will do a better job. securing the Border than Donald Trump. and the American people deserve a. president who cares more about border.

security than playing political games. and their personal political future and. when the campaign talks about it it's. almost always focused on undocumented. immigration and the southern border but. there's a much larger idea here and. that's that a lot of Americans feel like. we have an immigration system today that. the voters never chose it's not an. immigration system they want and I think. that's particularly resonant because so.

many Americans feel frustrated by the. economic Trends in this country over the. last several decades and they put these. two things together they say hey wait a. second our lives are not going well and. we have this outof control immigration. system and that is part of why. immigration has just become such an. intense issue this. [Music]. year so to understand how it is that we.

got here and how immigration seems to be. this subject that never leaves politics. you have to go back much before this. presidential campaign in fact you have. to go all the way back to. 1965 so David tell us exactly what. happens in 1965 and why it's so. important it's a turning point for a. long time in the 19th century we didn't. really have much immigration law in this. country if you could get here you could. enter that's when a lot of people's. ancestors entered it's when some of my. great-grandparents came here huge.

numbers of Jewish immigrants Italian. immigrants Irish immigrants come here. during that time but then there's really. a backlash to the massive amount of. immigration and in 1924 Congress passes. this incredibly restrictive law that. reduces immigration almost to zero and. the small amount of immigration that it. does allow they say basically can come. only from northern and western Europe so. it totally clamps down on immigration. from Asia and it sets incredibly.

restrictive caps on immigration from. eastern and southern Europe the goal. would clearly seem to be a wider more. Anglo-Saxon group of immigrants yes it. was a very clearly racist bill and the. goal was essentially to stop the. diversification of America that had been. happening in the late 1800s and early. 1900s and so that really guides US. immigration policy from the 1920s. through the 1960s and you can understand.

why amid the excitement around the civil. rights movement that people look at our. immigration system and they say wait a. second at the same time that we're. passing civil rights bills and outlawing. racial discrimination within our country. we shouldn't have an immigration system. that is so obviously based on race and. national origin and so what changes are. contemplated along those lines the. central figure here is John F Kennedy it. is a proud privilege to be a citizen of.

the great Republic to realize that we. are the descendants of 40 million people. who left other countries other familiar. scenes to come here to the United States. to build a new life he's a senator from. Massachusetts in 1960 and he's running. for president and he published a book. called a nation of immigrants which. really introduced that notion into the. popular vernacular he himself comes from. an immigrant family from Ireland he wins. the president of course and he says he's.

going to fix this broken and racist. immigration system that we used to have. next week we will send to the Congress. of the United States our proposals for. improving and. modernizing the laws which govern the. admission of immigrants into this. country and he introduces a bill that. will do that that will open immigration. to people from all over the world we. hope that the Congress of the United. States will accept these recommendations. and that before this year is over we. will have what we've needed for a good.

many years which is the recognition that. all people can make equally good. citizens that what this country needs. and wants are those who wish to come. here to build their families here and. contribute to the life of our. [Music]. country and what does this bill as it's. starting to take shape during the. Kennedy administ.

look like what are the tenants of it. from the very beginning they separate. out two different questions and this is. going to be important to think about. this entire debate who and how many H so. let's start with the who that is what. the Kennedy administration promises to. fix and they say we are no longer going. to make decisions based on where people. come from we're going to treat the whole. world equally we are going to change the. who of our our immigration system to be.

much broader to be much broader and. really to make decisions based on things. like can you come and contribute to our. economy we don't care where you are from. mhm they also say they are not going to. change the how many this is not a bill. to increase immigration so as history. fans know JFK's legislative agenda. mostly was stalled in Congress he's. assassinated in 1963 LJ becomes.

president and LBJ takes up JFK's. legislative agenda right and so this. becomes a bill that LBJ tries to pass. and from the very beginning LBJ and the. people who are in charge of the bill. including Ted Kennedy JFK's younger. brother who is then an impossibly young. Senator this becomes the first bill that. he is going to try to Shepherd through. the Senate and from the very beginning. all of them say we are not changing the. how many.

and the promise that the bill will not. lead to a significant increase in. Immigration is the number one promise. that the bills supporters make when. selling it I've spent a lot of time in. the Congressional archives reading their. speeches and reading their statements. it's the thing they emphasize more than. anything else so when Ted Kennedy the. senator who is running this bill in the. Senate opens the hearing to talk about. the bill he says the notion that this. bill will lead to more immigration.

is highly emotional irrational and has. Little Foundation in fact why is that. promise so important David to those who. are crafting this bill that the how many. stay the same even as the who is vastly. broadening immigration has almost always. made people nervous and it's. particularly made people who don't earn. a lot of money nervous they get nervous. that people are going to come in and. take their jobs or they're going to come. in and lower wages because there will be.

a greater labor pool and that's not a. crazy worry I mean business Executives. have long lobbied for high immigration. in part to keep wages down and have a. big labor pool and so there's this. underlying worry even in the 1960s when. the economy was quite good that very. high immigration would hurt blue collar. workers and you can see this in the poll. data at the time I mean pollsters like. Gallop asked people what do you think. about changing the immigration system. and Americans very clearly said we. actually would like to get rid of this.

old system in which we're making. decisions based on country but when the. poll said do you want more immigration. Americans overwhelmingly said no we do. not want more immigration and the people. writing the Bill were well aware of that. public opinion got it and so how do the. authors of the bill pull off what I have. to imagine is a somewhat tricky. Balancing Act of making the who much. much broader but the how many exactly. the same first they're going to set a. quota 265,000 people a year it doesn't.

matter where you come from and they're. going to start making decisions based in. large part on what you can add to our. economy so by 1965 Robert F Kennedy the. third Kennedy brother in this story has. been elected a senator from what a. family I I know has been elected a. senator from New York and he has this. little riff where he talks about the. kinds of workers who this new bill is. going to bring in and he says it's going. to bring in a Korean radiologist a. Japanese microbiologist a Greek chemist.

a Filipina teacher of deaf children and. a Turkish urologist and then he. contrasts that with who the bill will. not allow in ditch. diggers and the reason he says that is. the United States already has enough. ditch diggers whereas we need more. microbiologists and Radiologists but we. have enough people in this country who. want to be ditch diggers and are ditch. diggers and by doing that he's. essentially saying we are not going to.

introduce a lot of competition for Blue. Collar jobs in this country and lbj's. labor secretary goes right at this idea. of Labor competition he says it offers. complete protection to American workers. from labor. competition and then the second group. that the bill is going to prioritize is. family members if someone's here and. wants to bring her spouse over if. someone's here and they want to bring. their kids over and so the second group. that the bill is going to allow in are. family members. but here's where we get to the wrinkle.

Michael MH which is many family members. in this bill don't count toward the. quota of 265,000 im a year well they. weren't seen as threatening to labor. competition you can imagine if you're. bringing in a young child or you're. bringing in a parent or grandparent. they're not going to compete for those. ditch digging jobs and so relatives are. largely not counted toward the quota now.

in the moment I think it's important to. say there were members of Congress and. critics who realized that this could be. a problem one of them was Michael Fagan. a congressman from the west side of. Cleveland and he said wait a second why. don't we just set a real cap of 325,000. a year doesn't matter whether you're a. family member or a worker you will count. toward it and the Bill's Advocate said. no no no we don't need to do that the. family members aren't going to be a big. enough deal we're going to stick with. this idea of a 265 ,000 a year cap that.

applies to some people but not others H. hindsight's always 2020 but this does. seem like a very big loophole allowing. essentially if I'm understanding this. correctly a kind of unlimited number of. family members to come in and not count. against the quota yes it does I think. one of the things that happened is that. the people raising questions about the. quota like Michael Fagan were. immigration restrictionists they were. often also racists who wanted to keep.

the United States population heavily. Western European and so I think it. became easy for the people pushing the. bill to just ignore a lot of what they. were saying even though the people. pushing the bill were putting in place a. system that had this massive loophole. mhm and a bill with this big loophole. passes and it becomes the immigration. and nationality Act of 1965. [Music]. and LBJ signs it at the base of the.

Statue of Liberty distinguished. Governors and Mayors my fell Countryman. and it's fascinating what LBJ says when. signing it our beautiful America was. built by a nation of strangers from a. hundred different places or more he very. much adopts the language of a nation of. immigrants the land flourished because. it was fed from so many sources because. it was nourished by so many cultures and.

traditions and peoples and so he has. soaring language about that but he does. something that presidents don't normally. do when signing a big bill this bill. that we will sign today is not a. revolutionary bill it does not affect. the lives of. millions it will not reshape the. structure of our daily lives or really. add importantly to either our wealth. both are our power he promises that it's.

actually not that big of a deal and that. is his way of connecting the. salesmanship of the bill the promises to. the American people that this isn't. going to change the how many of. immigration this bill says simply that. from this day forth those wishing to. immigrate to America shall be admitted. on the basis of their skills and their. close relationships to those already.

here it's only going to change the who. of. [Music]. immigration I have a very strong. suspicion that the promise that this is. not going to change all that much turns. out to be wrong you've noticed my. foreshadowing Michael so what actually. happens almost immediately immigration. begins to Surge in the United States and. the overwhelming reason that it begins. to Surge is this loophole that allows. many family members to come in without.

being counted toward the quota so by. 1968 our newspaper the New York Times. runs a story that says the extent of the. change has surprised even those who. fought hardest for it and in 1971 The. Washington Post runs a story where they. interview Dennis cellus a Greek. immigrant in Queens who describes having. helped 24 of his family members come. into the United States one immigrant yes. and so you also start to see this in in. the the numberers so remember the cap.

was 265,000 a year an actual immigration. in 1965 the year the bill passes is. 300,000 a year a little bit above the. cap by 1970 it's 373,000 a year this is. legal immigration by 1980 it's 524,000 a. year and by 1990 it's exceeded 1 million. wow so hundreds and hundreds and. hundreds of thousands more immigrants. than the quota envisions yes in some. ways the loophole becomes more important.

than the quota itself and when you go. back and you look at graphs that show. the percentage of the United States. population that is foreign born you. really see the late 1960s as the point. where it begins to rise because of this. law so how do Americans react to this. influx knowing that it's not what they. had been told would happen initially. there's actually not that much of a. reaction the growth in the Immigrant. population happens slowly it happens. over time so we don't overnight have a.

massive increase in the Immigrant. population but one thing that starts to. change this issue is in the 1980s and. then the 1990s illegal immigration. becomes a much bigger deal just describe. that and how it interacts with the rise. in legal immigration that you've been. describing historically immigration at. the southern border immigration from. Latin America just wasn't a big issue. there actually weren't a lot of people. coming from Latin America for many. decades decades many people in Latin.

America were too poor to make the. journey it requires some resources. actually to immigrate but by the 1980s. and90s that's changing and it does. become more possible for people to get. to the US border people in Latin America. have more money transportation is better. people get to the United States they can. call home and tell their relatives that. they made it and this of course is the. era of Ronald Reagan and the first. George Bush and they don't fix the. problem with illegal immigration in part. it's that their backer of course are a. lot of corporate Executives and.

corporate Executives tend to like high. immigration both legal and illegal it. gives them more workers and it can hold. wages down for businesses and so this. problem starts to build in the 1980s and. by the 1990s it's really a central issue. in American politics voters look around. and they say the border is chaotic and. to a lot of Voters it feels unfair. particularly to recent immigrants they. said I went through this long process to. get into this country and now I see. other people skipping the line and at.

the same time that illegal immigration. is rising in the background remember we. still have the legal immigration Rising. that we talked about by 1990 we've got. more than a million people a year coming. here legally in significant part because. of the loophole in that law right and so. you put these two together and by the '. 80s and '90s you really have a very. large increase in the number of people. who are coming to this country often.

trying to get blue collar work and you. begin to see concerns among both. Republicans and Democrats and. independents about how immigration is. changing the United States and how it. may be contributing to slow growing. wages for. workers and there is one person in. particular in Washington a Democrat who. really tries to address this situation. and she tries to fix the unintended.

consequences of the 1965 law in the. 1990s and I think her struggle to do. that really helps explain how we've. ended up where We've Ended up today on. [Music]. immigration we'll be right back.

so David tell us about this Democrat who. tries to fix the immigration system her. name is Barbara Jordan and I bet a lot. of our listeners haven't heard of her or. don't know much about her but she really. was an icon in the 1970s and 80s in the. United States Barbara Jordan grew up in. Houston when it was segregated and. Barbara Jordan was black and she is a. star student and she becomes a star. debater in college and people who do.

debate often go into politics and she. goes into politics and she works on the. 1960 JFK LBJ presidential campaign and. she Rises up through Texas politics a. little bit and LBJ who's gotten to know. her encouraged her to run for Congress. and in. 1972 Jordan runs for Congress and wins. and two years after she enters Congress. thank you Mr. chairman she has this signature moment. during the Watergate hearings a.

president is. impeachable if he attempts to subvert. the Constitution if the impeachment. provision in the Constitution of the. United States will not reach the. offenses charged. here then perhaps that 18th century. Constitution should be abandoned to a. 20th century paper shredder where she. delivers this thundering speech calling. Nixon to task for breaking the law in. gate and this is something that millions.

of Americans watch and it really makes. her. [Music]. famous she becomes a major civil rights. leader she's known for trying to expand. voting access for her Latino. constituents in. Texas ladies and gentlemen in case you. don't know it may I now present our. second keynote. speaker The Honorable Barbara Jordan. Democrat of Houston Texas.

and then in 1976 she speaks to the. Democratic National. Convention I feel that not withstanding. the past that my presence here is one. additional bit of. evidence that the American dream need. not forever be. deferred but Jordan retires quite early. because of illness she goes back home to. Texas to teach and then in the 1990s.

President Clinton reaches out to her. both legal and illegal immigration have. been rising for years and people are. getting mad about it Bill Clinton needs. a way to address it and try to fix the. system and so he turns to Barbara Jordan. she's from Texas a border state and. she's this renowned Communicator of. American values so Clinton asks her to. lead a commission that will recommend. how the country can fix its broken. immigration system and at first Jordan.

says no she doesn't really have any. background in Immigration but she. ultimately becomes persuaded that there. aren't many people who could bring the. moral Authority that she could to this. and also that she spent much of her. career thinking about what is America. and this is a central part of that. [Music]. question and so how does she approach. this assignment that Bill Clinton gives. her well she does what commission chairs.

do she takes testimony she travels. around the country she looks at data and. evidence and she ultimately comes to. this conclusion it's a little bit. counterintuitive she argues that there's. a fundamental difference between being. pro-immigrant and being pro-immigration. and she says we are a nation of. immigrants but at the same time she says. that doesn't mean we should always want. higher and higher levels of immigration. in fact sometimes having higher and.

higher levels of immigration can hurt. immigrants immigrants who came here. several years ago are often the ones who. compete for jobs with the very most. recent immigrants and when immigration. gets too high it can lead to a political. backlash that hurts people who came here. often legally several years before in. other words if you're to pro-immigration. it will undermine the position of being. pro-immigrant. that's exactly right it's a version of.

in everything moderation if you really. care about the well-being of immigrants. you can't just dial immigration up to. too high of a level and once she and the. commission settle on these conclusions. Jordan then goes out and presents them. to the country and one of the more. intriguing places that she does so is at. a political convention in 1995 hosted by. Ross perau who of course had run as an. independent candidate for president in. 1992 and was thinking of running running. again in 1996 it has been my privilege.

to know her for many years let's give. her a big hello come on up and Jordan. goes there and she tells this convention. what she has concluded we have. concluded that a properly. regulated legal immigration system is in. the National interest it is in our. national interest to unite families and. create economic growth and protect those.

who flee. persecution as many before the. immigrants of today seeking freedom in. this land of opportunity have. sought but I said properly regulated and. I mean that and in the speech She lays. out the case for immigration reform for. changing our laws immigration is not a. right guaranteed by the US Constitution. to. everyone anywhere in the world who.

thinks they want to come to the United. States immigration is a privilege she. believes yes the United States is a. nation of immigrants but both of those. words matter we are a nation of. immigrants and we need a policy that. serves the national interest the. commission recommendations are intended. to continue the benefits of legal. immigration while limiting costs and. there are course good things are rarely.

free she says what many Americans. believe a nation needs to make decisions. about who will enter and who will not be. allowed to enter we are a country of. laws and she starts by talking about. illegal immigration for our immigration. policy to make sense it is necessary to. make distinctions between those who obey. the law and those who violate it. therefore we disagree with those who. would label any effort to control.

illegal immigration as somehow. inherently anti-immigrant. unlawful immigration is not acceptable. she's got multiple recommendations for. what the country should do to stem. illegal immigration and she specifically. says that the country should put in. place a system using Social Security. numbers and driver's licenses to make it. difficult for companies to employ people. who are here illegally because that will. make it much less lik that huge numers. of people want to come to this country.

the abuse of our economy by unlawful. workers and those who hire them the. undermining of wages and working. conditions we have fought so long to. protect these are the things that must. stop and what about legal immigration. the commission also calls for Less legal. immigration it says look we need to. continue doing many forms of legal. immigration we need to admit members of. an immigrant's nuclear family we need to. admit highly skilled workers and we need.

to admit political refugees who are. fleeing oppression but we don't need to. admit so many extended family members. who came in through the loophole of the. 1965 law and they effectively call for. closing that loophole now it is not that. we believe uh immigration of extended. family members are harmful but we do not. have unlimited numbers of immigrant. visas. she also says the commission finds no.

National interest in continuing to. import lesser skilled and unskilled. workers to compete with the most. vulnerable parts of our labor force many. American workers do not now have. adequate job. prospects and they're not improving with. welfare reform many more unskilled. American workers will enter the labor. market we should make their task easier. to find employment not.

harder by having a priority of unskilled. foreign labor and overall they call for. a onethird reduction in legal. immigration to the United States H which. it sounds like would bring the system. back to the stated intent but not the. Practical realities of the 1965 law. exactly right and one of the reasons. Barbara Jordan wanted to make these. changes is she was worried that if we.

didn't the politics of immigration would. become so toxic that a future Congress. or president a future anti-immigration. Congress or president would be able to. cut down even on the kinds of. immigration that are so important to. what this country is we cannot evade the. responsibility to make the necessary. choices to reform. immigration is literally a matter of who. we are as a nation and who we become as.

a people e plutus. Unum out of many. one. one so what happens to these. recommendations once Jordan and the. commission bring them to President. Clinton well at first Bill Clinton's. very enthusiastic in the budget I will. present to you we will try to do more to. speed the deportation of illegal aliens. who are arrested for crimes to better. identify illegal aliens in the workface.

as recommended by the commission headed. by former congresswoman Barbara Jordan. he Embraces the recommendations He. suggests he's going to try to get them. passed it is wrong and ultimately. self-defeating for a nation of. immigrants to permit the kind of abuse. of our immigration laws we have seen in. recent years and we must do more to stop. it but almost immediately political. opposition starts forming and it starts. performing on both sides so on the.

Republican side you hear these. Republicans saying we need immigration. it it leads to more entrepreneurs it. leads to a larger labor force they don't. say it can hold down wages but obviously. that's part of what they want which of. course is exactly why Barbara Jordan. wanted to keep down the of immigration. but you also have a big part of the. democratic party that is really opposed. to immigration restriction it's civil. rights groups in some cases it is Latino.

or Asian-American groups that want to. keep immigration high and so the kind of. things Jordan is calling for polling. consistently suggests are popular but. among activists and politicians in. Washington in many ways political elites. on the left and the right there's a real. discomfort with reducing immigration or. cracking down on illegal immigration and. so the recommendations largely do not.

become law a few things do such as a. voluntary system for checking whether. workers are in this country legally. volunt exactly I mean this idea that. we're going to say to businesses we're. going to let you decide whether you opt. into a system that tells us whether. you're breaking the law you can guess. how effective that was so for the most. part although some of Jordan's. recommendations become law we continue. to have the basic dynamics of the. immigration system that the 1965 law. gave us. I guess I don't quite understand why.

Bill Clinton would have bowed to those. pressures David because it sounds like a. bunch of Elites activists Business. Leaders are the ones trying to torpedo. this but Bill Clinton has many political. gifts and one of them is to. recognize what gets someone elected or. reelected and it feels like what Barbara. Jordan is really telling him is that. high levels of immigration legal and. illegal are a threat to working class.

America and Bill Clinton would have. understood I'd have to think that. workingclass America is really essential. to the Democratic party that he leads I. think two things are happening here one. the economy just keeps getting stronger. over the course of the 1990s which is a. reminder that immigration is just one. force among many that shapes an economy. and it's not the main one and the second. thing is that political Elites really. matter and what has happened over the.

last few decades is that both of our. parties became ever more dominated by. college graduates and people who had the. concerns and interests of college. graduates as opposed to workingclass. people and so Democrats become a little. bit less focused on what blue collar. workers want and we see this with both. trade and immigration and in the. Republican Party those same corporate. interests that have long had huge sway. over the Republican Party do and and so. when you think of official Washington. and the people who are making policy and.

who are lobbying for it you just have. much less pressure for changes to the. immigration system than public opinion. might suggest that you would this is. reminding me so much of what happened. with NAFTA with the North American Free. Trade Agreement which is that Elites. powerful entrenched forces in Washington. increasingly. disconnected from workingclass America. see nothing but upside in globalization. and free trade and don't anticipate the.

ways in which NAFTA will hurt. workingclass America there's not much. dispute that it does I think that's. exactly right and I think one of the. real mistakes that proponents of. immigration have made and this is both. business conservatives who want more. immigration and it's progressives who. from a Justice perspective want more. immigration I think one of the real. mistakes they've made is they tend to. argue that immigration is a free lunch. and in fact immigration just benefits. everyone and the research doesn't.

support that idea nor do people's. everyday experiences support that idea. immigration has trade-offs it has. enormous advantages for an economy but. it also has some costs and those costs. do tend to be borne disproportionately. by workingclass people and that's part. of why so many people are so anxious. about it well let's talk about some of. those trade-offs and I think it would be. helpful. for you to be as specific as possible.

about the upsides of higher immigration. as well as the cost because you just. mentioned that there seems to be. research and data there there is and. let's start with the upsides the biggest. beneficiaries of immigration are. immigrants themselves research suggests. that the typical experience is that an. immigrant who comes here poor remains. poor but that immigrant's children do. significantly better and the. grandchildren do really well and after. just a few Generations these immigrants.

look like native born Americans in terms. of their outcomes and then there are. other benefits for people who are. already in this country immigrants. expand the labor pool they can. particularly cut the cost of services. and they can particularly cut the cost. of services that upper inome people. often use yard work daycare other. services where large numbers of. immigrants work in those Industries and. in the long term immigrants can also.

expand the economy they can create more. demand for all kinds of things right. they become consumers they become. consumers themselves and then finally. there's a little bit more of a. subjective benefit which is I think many. Americans would say it's just more. interesting to live in a more diverse. country a country where fashion and. culture and music and all of those. things are more diverse right and what. about the costs economists have been. looking at this for a long time and I. think perh perhaps the best summary is. this 2017 report from the National.

Academy of Sciences which brought. together some of the biggest experts on. immigration in the country and looked at. immigration's effect on all kinds of. things including on. wages and that report produced a table. where they listed a whole bunch of. studies all the studies that cleared. their bar for really trying to tell us. something important about how. immigration affects the wages of native. born Americans Americans and when you. look down that chart you notice.

something it is dominated by negative. numbers which is to say that more. immigration does tend to reduce wages. particularly of the least educated lower. income workers right and that makes. intuitive sense because if you have more. people especially at the lower education. and skill level suddenly seeking the. same work then. supply of that work has gone up and.

therefore wages for it will go down of. course it's one of the most basic laws. of Economics of course the argument is. frequently made that we are talking here. about jobs that non-immigrants in the. United States don't want or are unlikely. to do what do the economists and what. does the research say about that you. definitely hear that argument and there. are some jobs jobs that native born. Americans and immigrants who are already.

here probably don't want to do but let's. think about some of the jobs we've been. talking about in this episode Michael. ditch diggers you imagine a blue collar. job like construction digging ditches. building houses a lot of people who are. already in this country and who are. struggling to find good paying work. would be very happy to do jobs like that. particularly if it paid a decent wage. which in theory might be easier to get. if immigration rates were lower yes and.

that's exactly how a lot of Americans. feel and I should emphasize that the. qualms that people have about. immigration are not just about wages. they may not even mostly be about wages. obviously a meaningful amount of the. opposition to immigration is related to. race and involves racism obviously but. that isn't the only thing going on. imagine that you lived in a community in. South Texas or in a neighborhood in.

Chicago or Denver two cities that are. magnets for immigrants and in just a. short period of time the population of. your community increased by 10% or even. 20% just think about what that would do. to a local school in terms of how many. kids were there in terms of how many of. them needed services like English as a. second language think about the strain. it would place on local hospitals and. other social services and then remember. the that the communities that tend to. experience these strains they're not.

affluent communities they tend to be. bluecollar communities lower income. communities they are the ones that are. on the front lines of the real societal. strains that immigration can create all. this of course anticipates the rise of. Donald Trump as a candidate who in his. announcement for president in 2015 rails. against immigrants and the consensus. that the Elites in both parties have. reached both Democrat and Republican. that high rates of immigration are.

healthy for the country I'm curious in. doing all this research and all this. reporting about immigration how you look. back on that moment now Donald Trump. when he talks about immigration often. lies and he often uses racist. stereotypes and it's really important to. say both of those things and at the same. time he exposed a real vulnerability of. the political Elites a lot of leading. Republicans thought that the policies. they pursued on both increasing trade.

and immigration were popular with their. voters and Trump is able to take over. the Republican Party almost immediately. in 2015 and 2016 in large part because. he expresses so much hostility to these. policies that the elites have been. pursuing on both and he speaks to the. frustration of so many workingclass. Americans including Republicans who for. decades have had really slow growth in. their income and in their wealth and in.

other measures of well-being and they. don't buy into what was for a long time. a conservative vision of more trade and. more immigration will help everyone it. is Central to Trump's rise as the. Republican standard Bearer and David my. recollection is that Trump is not just. very critical of illegal immigration. which is probably what he's best known. for but once he becomes president quite. critical of the levels of legal. immigration as well that's right so not.

only is he trying to build a wall at the. border and not only is he pursuing a. bunch of policies that feel quite cruel. like separating families but he's trying. to put in place the Muslim ban to try to. keep out people from predominantly. Muslim countries another example is that. he called for a big cut in legal. migration specifically by cracking down. on what he has described as chain. migration which is the term that. opponents use for this extended family. migration in which one person comes and. brings a relative and that relative then.

brings another relative and that what. the metaphor of chain is referring to. and Democrats respond to this by really. moving even further in the direction of. pro-immigration than they had been in. the 1990s and early 2000 in reaction to. him in reaction to Trump Biden runs for. office for president in 20120 sending a. message saying I will be different from. Donald Trump I will not violate. fundamental American values in the way. he has by separating families by.

speaking so cruy about immigrants and. once Biden takes office he actually. loosens our immigration policy in a. bunch of ways this is all very. technocratic it involves things like. Asylum rules and parole rules but. because Biden both spoke so welcomingly. about immigration while running for. president including in a debate. broadcast by. Univision A Channel Of course watched by. many in this country and in other. countries and then loosened policies.

when he took office you see this. enormous surge of immigration to the. United States and overall net. immigration to the United States. combining legal and illegal under Biden. is more than three times as high as it. was under Trump wow it's about twice as. high as it was under either Obama or. George W bush an immigration under Joe. Biden really is higher than it's been. under any president in many many decades.

all of this brings us to where we are. today and where I think we started this. conversation David with immigration. being a major concern for voters among. their top concerns and poll after poll. after poll showing that voters trust. Donald Trump more to tackle the issue. than KLA Harris which given the numbers. you just described makes some real sense. given that Harris was Biden's vice. president and oversaw this major. increase in both legal and illegal. immigration and it feels like the unique.

threat that the issue of immigration. right now would pose to comma Harris is. that the entire Democratic party and. brand has gotten to a place where the. way it talks about immigration in. general is as far away from workingclass. America as one can imagine yes and look. Donald Trump is more extreme on. immigration than most Americans and most. workingclass Americans are and polling. shows that a lot of people are actually.

uncomfortable about how he talks about. it but the Democrats have moved so far. from where people are on immigration. that Donald Trump has ended up closer to. where many Americans are than the. Democratic party is and so the Democrats. are really struggling to get consistent. with public opinion on this issue in. some ways similar to the way in which. Republicans are really having a hard. time getting consistent with public. opinion on abortion and while abortion. is one of the Democrats strongest issues.

in this election immigration is really. the mirror image of it in which a lot of. Voters don't trust the Democratic party. on it and it is a reason for them to. consider voting for Donald Trump what's. interesting of course is that Barbara. Jordan was a Democrat and the 1965 law. was passed by democrats and so Democrats. could very well and maybe even quite. naturally own this subject and yet from.

what you're saying the Democrats have. drifted further and further from their. own legacy that's right and we've seen. kamla Harris return to that Legacy in. her presidential campaign she has really. mixed this idea of we need tough border. security and we are a nation of. immigrants the problem for her of course. is that she has to both run on the Biden. record and there's tape of her saying. very different things only four or five. years ago but you're right Michael that. a lot of the old principles of where the. Democratic party was on immigration and.

where kamla Harris is now are actually. quite consistent with public opinion on. this issue what seems very clear in. having this conversation with you and. for me was something of a revelation is. how much our current immigration system. is a broken promise right in ' 65. leaders of both parties said that the. law they were passing would not. meaningfully increase immigration it. absolutely did by a lot with real.

consequences economic social and. political efforts to bring it back to. the promises of that law have basically. gone nowhere ever since and whether as a. voter you are drawn to. Trump's very harsh at times approach to. immigration including Mass deportations. we haven't talked a lot about in this. episode or Harris's comparatively. gentler approach to this question that. broken. promise does feel like an important.

backdrop to the question of immigration. and this election it is and it also. reminds me of two larger points about. our political system one is. that Washington and the politicians who. make our policies really have ignored. the views of workingclass people on many. issues for a long time and trade and. immigration are signature examples and. what politicians of both parties have. often done is they've talked down to.

voters they've said no no you don't. understand trade is good for you or. they've said no no no immigration. doesn't hurt your wages as much as you. think it does and voters have rebelled. and they've rebelled for a series of. reasons one of which is definitely that. our economy hasn't been very good for. Americans who don't have a college. degree for several decades. now and the second thing is that we live. in a democracy we live in democracy in. which we elect people to pass laws and.

when Washington comes to the American. people as it did in. 1965 and says hey we're going to pass an. immigration law and above all we promise. it won't lead to a huge surge in. Immigration and then it does lead to a. huge surge in Immigration that's not. sustainable it simply is not sustainable. in a democracy to have our elected. representatives promise us one thing and.

then have it do the exact opposite of. what they promised whatever you support. an immigration it doesn't work and so as. we think about the future of immigration. solving it is going to be incredibly. difficult we continue to need. immigration on some level for a variety. of reasons but I think we're not going. to get to a sustainable immigration. system until Washington reckons with the. past failure to produce what it promised. the American people it was going to.

[Music]. produce well David thank you very much. thank you. Michael much of this episode was drawn. from David's new book entitled ours was. The Shining future the story of the. American. [Music]. dream we'll be right back. [Music].

here's what else you need to know today. the United States is warning that North. Korean soldiers are now poised to. participate in an assault on Ukrainian. troops operating in Russia's western. region such an assault would demonstrate. that as the United States has feared for. weeks North Korea has officially become. a combatant in the war between Russia.

and Ukraine the United States now. estimates that North Korea has sent. 10,000 troops to Russia in a major. expansion of the. [Music]. war today's episode was produced by. Ricky nety will re Stella tan and Alex. Stern it was edited by Lisa Chow fact. checked by will pel contains original. music by Dan Powell Maran Lozano Pat.

mccusker and Rowan nisto and was. engineered by Alyssa Moxley our theme. music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael borro see tomorrow. [Music].