Joni Mitchell Never Lies

hey it's Michael for our last few. episodes of 2024 we're bringing you. something really special a year of. culture in review we're going to begin. with one of our all-time favorite guests. talking about one of the year's most. astonishing performances and the Really. improbable story of how it even happened. today critic at large Wesley Morris on. the comeback of the singer and. songwriter Joanie Mitchell.

it's Christmas day Wednesday December. 25th I'm Wesley Morris I'm a Critic at. the New York Times and back in. 2022 this news broke that this amazing. event had taken place at the Newport. Folk Festival in Rhode Island Joanie. Mitchell had come out and played a. concert for the first time in a long. time and it was a big deal because. Joanie Mitchell the singer the song.

writer influencer of generations of. musicians that person had virtually. disappeared from public life she sworn. off touring and then in 2015 a brain. aneurysm almost killed her she survived. but her ability to sing or even speak. was. gone so you can imagine the shock when. she appeared on stage at Newport. surrounded by a bunch of musicians led. by Brandy Carlile and including folks.

like Winona Jud and Marcus Mumford some. of these same musicians had been. convening at her house in LA and. somebody started calling those. Gatherings joonie jams and now here they. all were taking her living room sessions. public the Joanie Mitchell fans went. crazy she was back and I might add back. in that signature. Beret but honestly I I had my d.

like what was really happening here did. Joanie Mitchell even want this or were. these adoring Young musician fans making. her do something for their own reasons. was it elder care I wasn't there I don't. know and then earlier this year I'm. watching the Grammys at home in my. living room and in the middle of the. show The Stage went dark and a familiar. voice filled the room R and Flo.

of angel hair it was low and it was. deliberate and ice cream. cast in the and slowly part of the stage. spun around to reveal FEA canons. everywhere Joanie Mitchell seated in an. armchair one hand stirring a walking can. the other moving to the cadences of her. own lyricism and she was indeed. surrounded by other musicians I love. from both.

sides and I was like okay never mind I. take it all back because so much about. this performance was so moving first of. all just the way the people on stage. these musicians these great musicians. were regarding Joanie Mitchell like they. were having the same experience that I. was at home except they were there and. they were in awe of the beauty of this.

moment like they were at the feet of a. musical. mother and then there were the cutaways. to musicians in the audience one shot. looked over du a lia's shoulder at. Beyonce who was just swaying in thought. and then another shot caught Taylor. Swift midst Standing Ovation and I just. got the sense that a lot of people in. that room were thinking about what 50. years from now looks like for them how's. anti-hero going to sound when Taylor. Swift's 80 years old what's that song.

going to be about. then but mostly I was struck by how good. Jony Mitchell. sounded she's lost an octave over the. years but there's still tremendous power. in her lower register she can still. control she can still wield it so when. more of these joany jams got scheduled. at the Hollywood Bowl I knew I had to. get myself on a plane to hear her with. my own ears and see here with my own.

eyes I also knew my friend Sasha Weiss. was. going Sasha is a writer and my editor. the Times magazine and we talk a lot and. I wanted to ask her what it felt like to. be there at one of these shows we went. on different nights she went on Saturday. I went on Sunday and I wanted to talk. about who Johnny Mitchell is to her and. how it feels to experience an. 80-year-old in full command of her. meaning.

hi Sasha hi. Wesley how are you I'm good I want to. talk about the concert obviously but. before we do that I just I got to ask. you what your relationship to joanny. Mitchell is like what's your first Joy. Mitchell moment my parents introduced me. to Joanie Mitchell and it was at a. pretty young age I mean I I can't really. remember a time when her voice wasn't in. my head I woke to Joanie I slept to. Joanie you know I think from the ages of. like seven on I mean very young wow. they'd play it a lot on car rides so I.

think Joanie that seems apt it's so AP. seems apt for a person who she's a. traveler she's a Restless Wanderer and I. think that also implanted something in. me that you know I grew up in I would. say in some ways in a kind of cozy. somewhat cloyed environment I mean grew. up in New York City but you know a kind. of strong Jewish Community I mean. there's a sense of like shutle likeness. in my upbringing I would say and I think. Joanie did implant a seed of.

wondering and wandering because so many. of her songs are about I mean on Blue. alone she's in California and she's in. Spain and she's I been on like all I. want is you know the first line is I'm. on a lonely road and I'm traveling yeah. traveling traveling. [Music]. Trel I mean I loved to sing I still love. to sing and I really studied her singing. and learned to sing from Blue and I. think just the leaping in the range you.

know the way that can adventurously. boldly almost insolently like she can go. from really low to just leaping up it's. sort of doing a parallel bar routine. where like it goes from the low bar to. the high bar flips around a little bit. goes back down comes up and then sticks. The Landing every. time oh wish I had a r.

I feel like there's a desire there. there's a hunger there's a command I. wanted that vocally and I I think I. wanted it like interpersonally or. something like what does that look like. I don't know I think the ability to. explore the ability to like take command. the ability to be daring I mean I don't. know if I've achieved these things but I. think this was like my fantasy. especially blue but courton spark too. shaped my ideas. about what love was I always felt like. love was a complex Laden thing not a.

simple thing because of Joanie what it. was to be a writer I think you know her. songs are so writerly so many of them. are short stories in miniature and you. get you get a whole life in those songs. so I I think that her words I listen to. them thousands of times I mean blue is. just stamped on my Consciousness so I. think I wanted to see what kind of woman. I'd become by encountering Joanie oh my.

God we're just started talking and my. eyes are already welling. up um okay I first heard Janie Mitchell. in the 90s um cuz I was listening to. this radio station when I was a kid that. was really singer songwriter heavy so so. night ride home night ride home was my. first Johnny Mitchell. [Music]. album I bought a cassette and the voice. on it was unlike any of the other people.

they were playing on this radio. station The Voice was deeper than the. leaping that you're talking. [Music]. [Applause]. about all of that beauty which I would. describe in some ways as young womanish. by 1991 had really solidified into. something thing that moved less but.

weighed. more there's a song on that album called. Passion Play when all the slaves are. free and it's essentially the sort of. song that she' begun to really luxuriate. in which is a kind of moral judgment on. the condition of this well I'm going to. say the United States she's Canadian. lives in Los Angeles according to her is. her workplace and her home in western.

Canada is her home but she has a real. sense of you know the way the world is. operating and the way the world is. different in 1991 from how it was in. 1974 or 69 even in this particular case. it's just about the possession of land. and this idea that men are not stewards. of the land they're Proprietors and like. what's it going to look like when the. people that you have Labor for you have.

a revolution mhm there's just something. about the way that she says who you. going to get to do your dirty work going. to do the Dirty Work when all the slaves. are free all the slaves are free and. she's doubling. herself and that doubling it just sounds. different when your voice is that. [Music]. low and I just was so drawn to whatever. that sound was because there was wisdom.

in it especially with this later music. which I would say which I don't know as. well so I I love people most people. don't yeah all right let's talk about. the Hollywood bull show we went to this. fall I've been waiting it's been hard I. mean I I watched the Newport performance. and the one in 2022 for big comeback and. I was so moved hearing her sing again I. think in those performances her voice. was still in the process of returning.

mhm there were moments when her voice. broke moments when the songs felt like. they were being explored again yeah so I. felt both moved amazed sometimes anxious. watching her and I I really wanted to. see her a couple years later and to see. what had happened to her voice and her. performance now that she'd really. decided to take it on the road what was. different I felt it was really her show. yeah that she was the band leader and. it's so interesting cuz she was the. whole time right she sits oh my God like.

chair we got to talk about the furniture. which is incredible but her presence. just has this gravitas and physicality. even though you know she's not standing. but she really draws the 17,000 SE. beautiful outdoor Amphitheater into her. there's something energetically. incredibly potent and maybe that was. true at Newport too but I just felt that. she kind of returned to some kind of. energetic Center I could feel it the.

minute I saw her come on the stage I. felt the same thing I mean there's. something about the chair right I mean. it really is a throne like set piece and. it. really gives everybody a raid around her. a kind of not subservient role but. they're all there to facilitate the. needs of this Monarch but at the same. time she's so playful I mean there's the. chair and there's the scepter like cane.

which looked to me to be gilded you know. like there's a coyote I think it might. be a coyote coyot on on the actual um. handle of the cane I didn't observe that. I just saw something metallic and and. glinting and and you know it's like she. she's wielding it but she's so playful. and as you were talking about earlier. you know her rhythms her rhythms are so. unusual and she's tapping them and and. tracing this kind of rhythmic.

idiosyncratic signature throughout the. songs and it's just incredible so she's. at once Grand and there's just something. droll and fun and playful about her in. her posture it's both both end and also. I would say that the way the stage looks. it's a recreation as I understand it of. the joany jams that took place in her. living room over the course of many. years which you know led up to this. moment of coming back to the stage AG. you know where she gather with musician.

friends and I think Brandy really. facilitated it and all these different. people would come right many different. people came to play for her over several. years Herby Hancock Dolly Parton Shaka. Khan Harry Styles but not all of those. people were on stage at night at the. Hollywood Bowl definitely none of the. people I just named but it seemed like. there was a core group those were the. people those the people on stage who who. clearly had a long running experience. singing her like an ability to improvise.

that seemed to me to be drawing from the. experience of having done a lot of work. together but the stage I mean it felt. very intimate and from where I was. sitting like everyone sort of seemed in. a pile so it was like you know it was. both really like an ensemble and yes. Joanie was this commanding presence I. can't imagine what it would be like to. go to this concert if you're someone who. has flown halfway like completely across. the country to hear. what you think is going to be a night of.

her doing. blue yes there are 10 songs on that. album and people only heard three mhm. California Carrie which the audience. sung it was explicitly stated this song. is for you you and the audience can sing. it I think that was it I might be. missing something but I don't think I am.

she did a case of you my night oh she. did do a case of. [Music]. you but most of the songs were from. these later albums from hijera in. 76 up to shine which is. 2007 part of the feeling that I got of. her being in command was the set list. which oh yeah I felt like she was. preaching she was not bringing. Nostalgia and comfort I got the sense.

that this is a person who does not think. that they've gotten their. due as an artist past a certain point. right I think in the popular imagination. blue has kind of eaten her entire body. of work which is interesting to me. because you know the song she sang at. the Grammys that night was both sides. now not on Blue was on clouds and the.

songs that have all of the kind of world. weariness come after that right it's the. experience of being extremely popular. and extremely famous for those two. albums they kind of put her off of I. mean what's the great line from Freeman. in Paris I'm out here stoking the star. making Machinery behind the popular. songs the star maker machery behind the.

PO. s right I can't be free I cannot be a. free man in Paris if I'm out here trying. to sell records the two things are. incompatible there's making my art and. then there's toiling for money so she. gave us mostly her art song Yes 100% 27. songs most of which are Songs She Wrote. after 1976 mhm I did feel like I was.

being schooled in a really good way huh. I mean there's a quality of attention. that you have to bring to her new. register and there's yes I agree such a. depth and a richness I mean I kept. thinking of wood grain like it just felt. Sasha rich and and you know so much to. hear and think about and movement but I. mean maybe it's also about the reverence. like you could hear the Crickets maybe. you always can in the wood bowl but but. I felt it was about a sense again it's. this kind of energetic gravitas and and. I did feel she was demanding a kind of.

listening partly in the choice of song. she wanted a hush and choosing those. later songs like it didn't create the. exitation right like it it created. something else that was unusual I just. was so in tune with her voice and I was. really hearing these songs in a new way. I just closed my eyes and just got. transported to wherever it was she was. trying to take us I also.

think there is a really special kind of. listening going on on the. stage say more about that well I think. this is gets back to the way that these. concerts came about I mean you know this. is what I understand from reading and. and listening around you know that she. had these regular Gatherings the Joanie. jams in her living room and at first she. wasn't singing much because she couldn't. and she was still recovering and I I. think over time she started to chime in.

you know and sometimes it was just with. a line or two sometimes you know I think. as her voice strengthened it was more. and more and eventually she started to. pick up the guitar and I felt very much. the Attunement of the other musicians to. her which I guess with any great band. you you you know you feel that but it. felt really potent because I felt. like they really understood when she was. taking over the song yes to me it was. like really utopian it modeled something.

really beautiful like they were partners. and they could recede and I really liked. watching them do that so I think you. know they're doing really intense. listening and you can kind of feel that. atmosphere and it kind of invites you to. listen in a different way I mean there's. some kind of intimate communal. collaborative Act of Attunement that was. going on in this concert but whatever is. happening and however they're following. along there is a shagginess and an.

imperfection you know and I mean on the. one hand Joanie is such a virtuosic like. she does have a kind of like consumate. appolloni Artistry to her like. everything she does is excellent but I. did feel that there was a you know. sometimes like the starts of songs were. a little a little off and and I loved. that and I love that she let us hear. that and see that I kept track of when I. felt she was most present. like when she did night ride home I mean.

she was back in this song she's back. whatever this song is about whatever. memory she's having of this dance. wherever the song has came from she was. back. there and like a romance right like no. interruptions no distractions no phones. till Friday no phones till Friday. [Music].

I was struck by just how present she was. in this music and like when she sounded. to me like this Arrangement has found a. great place for her singing mhm and it. happened you know out of 27 songs it. happened more than half the time. yeah okay let's take a break and when we. come back I had one complaint about this. show I only had one wait did you have. any by the way zero zero I think I think.

I think I can give you one and I'll tell. you after the. [Music]. break okay I do have one complaint about. this show and I don't know how you felt. about this okay Brandy Carlile kept. calling the music deep Cuts deep Cuts.

like she's singing with share this is a. person who has one top 10 song one top. 10 song in 60 years of making you turn. me on onadio well that's a top 40 song. yes help me help me help me hit number. seven by the way come on perfect song. I'm really taking all I have to not. burst into song you do it you can do it. um I will not harmonize with you because. it will not sound good at all hey help. me I think I'm falling in love.

again when I get that crazy feeling I. know I'm in trouble again I'm in trouble. cuz you're a rambler and a gambler and a. sweet talking ladies man and you love. your. loving but not like you love your fre.

I will never sing on this show. again that was beautiful it was. beautiful as a person who cannot sing. but love when you sing I do enjoy trying. it's one of my I love it but that's her. only top 10 song like she really was. following her heart and not her. pocketbook she wasn't down with that she. thought it was funny when they were like. give us a hit oh wait can we listen to. that part of miles of Isles um where.

she's about to do the circle game miles. of Isles of course being like her first. live album which came out 50 years ago. this year and there's this moment on. stage that I just think is so indicative. of who Jonny Mitchell is as a person and. she's standing there I guess tinkering. with her guitar and she's just finished. blue and there's like 30 seconds of. people just shouting at her. [Music].

they're just Shouting Out song titles. play this play. that play what you want all right this. is what she says in response to that. that's one thing that's always like uh. this is her in 1974 been a major. difference between like the Performing. Arts to me and being a painter you know. like a painter does a painting and he. does a painting that's it you know he's. had the joy of creating it he hangs it. on some wall somebody buys it somebody.

buys it again or maybe nobody buys it. and it sits up in the Loft somewhere. till he dies but he's never they nobody. ever says to him you know nobody ever. said to Van go paint a starry night. again. man you know he painted it that was it. she's just like I don't want people. screaming song titles at me and the. concert felt like a culmination of that. or like some bracket to that right like. she was like I'm playing what I want to.

play and you're going to listen really. carefully you know it's also worth. saying like her Persona on stage I think. it's very different than it was I mean. in the you know like YouTubes I've seen. of her youthful performance where she. was she was a little more I mean she. always was like a cool cat but you know. a little more soft I mean she's got a. droll unbothered Persona which is really. interesting next to these adoring. musicians and it's not like she. undercuts them because I think she's.

really receiving which is also something. we should talk about the receiving of. the love and the agulation but there is. just a kind of knowingness. unbotheredness and drolly that I found. extremely charming and funny and you. know she's not ingratiating she just. isn't no not at all I mean she's not a. person out here trying to do what they. call fan service I mean this is also a. person who said she'd never perform. again yeah I mean I swear to God in.

2015 we found out that she'd had this. aneurysm we thought she wasn't going to. make it and I I think for people who do. come out the other side of that. situation you know if you're even close. to being a death store the idea that. you're going to live for nine more years. and that for at least three of those. years you're going to be thriving in. public you're going to go to the Grammys. and I don't know I can't imagine what. that's like it may be worth saying that. this is the second time in her life.

where she came back from a severe. illness when she was a young girl she. had polio and she was stricken for. months and couldn't walk and apparently. really sort of dreamed herself back into. walking she was lying in a bed and she. was. determined to walk and there's some real. force of will there obviously you know. some capacity for self- creation that. she had even as a young girl. and I don't know to me there's something.

really amazing and I mean very upsetting. about the fact that she had another. experience of being bedridden again but. there's some something was just like. nope not like this not like this yall. going to have to find another way to end. this yeah it's not going to end here yes. I want to go back to that Grammy's. moment actually the thing that really. struck me and completely embarrassed my. skepticism about was this her choice she. got bills to pay what what is going on.

here with this return but the Grammy's. performance I mean for my own two eyes. it just said Wesley shut up why were you. suspicious I just you see she's not. going to do what she doesn't want to do. that's what we've been talking about the. whole time I understand that but you. know the entertainment business is full. of stories where people have been. weekend and Bernie like lots of people. have been propped up made to keep. working when they shouldn't have been. and we you don't find out till it's too. late yeah so I just wanted I just wanted.

to know but this performance to me was. just. so life. affirming and it was beautiful. because I just can't imagine writing. something when you're what 25 26 years. old even younger when she wrote that. probably even younger when she wrote it. and to re inhabit that song God as an.

80-year-old like and have it mean even. more tears and. fears and feeling. proud say I love you right out. loud it was an incredible thing to. witness I mean there's a beautiful line. in that song Something's lost and. something things gained MH and the way.

she phrased it in the performance I saw. she really elongated the word. gained but something's. [Music]. gain in live every. day I felt like she was taking in the. riches of experience right there on the. stage in front of all of us and it was. incredibly transcendently moving I. really don't know.

life I really don't know. life at. all I mean it's just. so rich I was going to ask you if there. was a moment that really messed you up. was this a. moment. [Laughter]. yes why are you so deepish about it no I. just I'm just like reinhabiting it.

um yeah I mean it just felt. like the profundity of life right there. in the Hollywood Bowl you know I'm. throwing a tissue at. you I can't believe we're lucky enough. to experience living on Earth with. Joanie. Mitchell who is still able to interpret. her own. music 60 years. later yeah in a time of doubt and.

turbulence in the world that got. absorbed into that night too the. personal and the kind of national and. political meaning in all of that in that. song like I I I just feel like she's a. distiller and processor of our. collective experience in in a way that. kind of like none other and it's all. there in the tber of the voice it's all. there I just couldn't believe my good. fortune. we'll be right.

[Music]. back can we talk about the laughter she. laughed through that whole. show she laughed after every Applause. she has a great laugh and she laughs. sometimes on her recorded song she has. this kind of musical slightly antic. laugh y to me it evokes this is very. very Jewish it evokes the biblical. laughter of Sarah who who when she was. told in her '90s that she was going to.

be mother to Isaac laughs and Isaac is. the name for laughter in Hebrew and it's. this deep story of Renaissance of. creation of. surprise of fertility in old age and I. felt like the laughter was an ancient. laughter of generativist that came from. someplace really deep I heard that in. the laughter I think that's.

it she sang a song about job so she. appreciate that Sasha I mean you've been. in my life for such a long. time it's wild to have a conversation. with you about on a microphone anyway. about a thing we'd be talking about at. our desks I know so fun so thank you for. doing that I really appreciate it me too. thank you. [Music]. Wesley thanks for listening everybody.

before you go I just want to tell you. that what you just heard is going to. happen every week starting next year. it's going to be me talking to other. people who I love talking to about. everything art and movies and books and. sports and all kinds of things that are. happening in the culture so to be the. first to know when we launch sign up for. our audio there's an audio. newsletter I didn't I didn't know so I'm. going to sign up with you to find out.

what's happening with my show in the. audio newsletter you can find it at NY. times.com AUD newsletter which is what. I'm going to do right. now all right this episode was produced. by Elissa Dudley edited by Wendy Dore. and Paula Schuman and engineered by Pat. mccusker with production assistance from. Kate low presty special thanks by the. way to Maddie masello and Nick Pitman. and thanks to you for listening talk to.

you. [Music]. soon that's it for the daily I'm Michael. babbaro happy holidays and see you. tomorrow.