Israel’s Plan to Destroy Hamas

from The New York Times I'm Michael Boro. this is a. [Music]. daily for years Israel's leaders. believed that they could coexist with. Hamas after this weekend's Massacre that. belief is. over today my colleague Steven eranger.

on Israel's plan to destroy Hamas and. what it will mean for Palestinians and. [Music]. [Applause]. israelies it's Wednesday October. 11th Steve we wanted to talk to you. because you have been a longtime student. of and journalist of the Middle East.

Israel and the Palestinian people you. know this story very well and we want. you to help make sense of Israel's. pledge delivered over the past few days. to destroy Hamas over the attacks it. carried out over the weekend and I want. to start by having you explain what had. been Israel's relationship with Hamas. before those attacks well first let's.

remember that Hamas is a Palestinian. armed group it was a branch of what. Israel originally considered moderate. Muslim Brotherhood Hamas began in the. 80s as part of a kind of Charity group. they did a lot of social Aid they had. very well educated people they had. doctors But as time went on Hamas which. is dedicated to the destruction of. Israel which on religious basis says.

Israel has no right to exist that all. Israeli citizens are soldiers that they. Interlopers into holy Muslim lands. turned more and more toward violence and. Hamas then became more involved with the. struggle of Palestinians against Israeli. [Music]. occupation they buried some of the. victims of suicide bombing that.

destroyed a crowded bus in Tel Aviv and. in the '90s. became much more of a terrorist group. Hamas released a video of a young man it. said had carried the bomb onto the. crowded number five bus in downtown Tel. Aviv it set off a set of suicide. bombings that really turned Israel. upside. down the organization has claimed credit. for numerous suicide bombings in the. last 2 years including Wednesday's bus.

blast in Jerusalem it killed 17 Israelis. today and marked in Israeli brains that. Hamas was among the most dangerous of. the Armed Palestinian groups and perhaps. the most Reckless Hamas now has. specifically threatened our women and. children it is the first terrorist. organization to do so we will do. whatever it takes for them not to be. able to carry out their activity at the. same time the Israeli pull out from Gaza.

began today amid protests Israeli. soldiers went door Todo handing out. eviction notices to the first of 8,500. Jewish settlers living there when Israel. withdrew from Gaza in 2005 decided it no. longer wanted to rule over the millions. of Palestinians in. Gaza we will live in Freedom there will. be no settlers no Army no one to forbid. us to move around as we wish the. Palestinian Authority had an election it.

was Hamas supporters who were jamming. the streets running which Hamas won. Hamas candidates won a huge Victory. securing 76 seats to fatter 43 in the. Palestinian legislative. [Music]. Council I remember that election really. well Steve it was a stunning development. for much of the West especially for. Israel.

it was stunning to Israel and stunning. to Washington and it gave Hamas more. credibility but in Gaza there was an. effort to keep control by the West Bank. Authorities of fata which is the current. heart of the Palestinian Authority and. there was a war there was a civil war. inside Gaza which Hamas won in a very. brutal fashion in 2007 and it is. controlled Gaza ever since but Israel.

though it had an embargo on Hamas so did. the whole West Israel realized it needed. to talk to someone in control of Gaza. Hamas was that address so like it or not. hating Hamas or not Israel had business. to discuss even though it had withdrawn. from Gaza Israel was controlling imports. and exports it was controlling the Sea. Coast many people felt in any real legal.

terms the occupation continued so Israel. developed a policy in a way of. tolerating Hamas believing that in the. long run the responsibilities of. governing Gaza would. moderated H so to Israel Hamas was not. an ideal partner at all but one that. Israel could do business with and. maintain a kind of status quo in other.

words a threat that could be. managed yes there were no Illusions. about Hamas and there was violence there. have been lots of Rocket fire back and. forth there have been terrorist attacks. sometimes Hamas was responding to what. it considered Israeli aggressions in the. West Bank and elsewhere Hamas has always. been interested in trying to get. Palestinian prisoners released from. Israel which is white has taken hostages.

in the past to try to trade them I mean. in a famous case they kept an Israeli. soldier for more than 5 years while. negotiating a massive prisoner release. and every once in a while when things. get too hot Israel does a serious. bombing campaign and the Israelis would. come in with troops to as as they put it. ugly cut the grass and by that they mean.

killing off parts of hamas's leadership. and its troops to keep calm for a little. while longer and dayto day despite any. misgivings Israel has about Hamas there. is never anything resembling an attempt. to dislodge it as the government the. representatives of Palestinians in. Gaza yes that's true because basically. it would have meant reoccupying Gaza. going in with heavy Ground Forces which.

Benjamin Netanyahu was always reluctant. to do it's not like he wasn't being. pressured sometimes to deal with Hamas. but he understood how hard a war that. was going to be the number of Civilian. casualties it would inevitably create. inside Gaza and he always pulled back. from it but now that calculation has. changed because of the horrors of what. happened last weekend the whole idea of.

somehow tolerating Hamas to manage Gaza. has been exploded and Israel intends now. to do what it was always reluctant to do. since it withdrew from Gaza in 2005. which is to send in ground forces in a. serious way to wipe out Hamas I just. want to pause on this because what. Israel is saying it wants to do to Hamas. destroy this group that governs millions. of people in Gaza is a very big and.

historic pledge to make and I want to. understand why what happened over the. weekend has brought Israel to that place. it never was willing to go. before that's really the right question. because as people are still uncovering. bodies there are more than a thousand. Israeli dead and most of them aren't. soldiers most of them are civilians. they're mothers and children babies some. of them killed in their homes um and.

their homes are in Israel proper they're. not in Gaza and some Israelis say this. is the worst massacre of Jews since the. Holocaust and if that is true what is. the point of the state of Israel so. after this attack Israel concludes that. the very idea of Israel as a Homeland. for the Jewish people. requires action it can no longer try to.

tolerate or manage this threat to its. citizens it must it concludes remove. it that is precisely. right now the implications of that are. severe but the country which has been. very divided politically over many. issues is united in feeling that this. requires a massive military response. [Music].

we'll be right. back see now that Israel has shifted its. thinking and decided that it will not be. managing Hamas as a threat but is. committed now to destroying Hamas what. do you understand that to mean exactly. and how istically can that even be.

accomplished if Israel wants to do it I. think it can only be accomplished by a. serious coordinated planned military. attack involving artillery air power and. infantry and it's taking a few days to. think through to prepare but Israel has. called up. 300,000 reservists a huge huge number of. soldiers it's a huge number in a small. country it is gearing up for a sizable.

military operation and it's going to be. brutal right I'm wondering Steve if you. can describe what a major operation like. this will look like on the ground given. the very nature of Gaza well Gaza is a. very very tightly packed City people. talk about refugee camps but these camps. are buildings they're structures I mean. it's not like people living in tents. it's poor but it's also got facilities.

israeli's already cut off electricity as. best it can it's cut off water it's. sealed the Border it will have to go in. street by street with Urban fighting but. I think that will be preceded by quite. severe air attacks and artillery attacks. already you have the sense that Israel's. bombing of Gaza now is clearing Pathways.

for the Infantry and of course Hamas has. planned for this retaliation so Israel. will have to deal with I think. well-planned defenses which will include. IEDs include booby traps many Hamas. Fighters wear civilian clothing they can. pop out of tunnels with an RPG and this. is going to make it very very difficult. for Israel to distinguish between normal.

civilian and fighter and that's really. the point right I mean it's almost. inevitable that Israeli strikes on Hamas. targets will hit or wound civilians and. it's partly because Hamas deliberately. lives among them and um hides its. Munitions among them and in mosques and. in hospitals I've seen these things for. myself and I I don't expect them to be. any different this.

time Israel is already encouraging gazen. citizens to vacate the territory and. actually go to. Egypt Israel in the past has also had. this practice of warning buildings that. it's about to Bomb by sending a piece of. lead down onto the roof now Israel is. saying it no longer has the time to do. that it doesn't have the aircraft to do. that it's warning civilians that.

buildings may be bombed without warning. and already from air strikes there are. hundreds of Palestinians dead and. thousands displaced those numbers are. only bound to go up. considerably Hamas in contrast has said. when Israel does that it will publicly. execute some of the 150 or so Israeli. hostages that it has the other dilemma. for Israel is if they're going going to. go in to Gaza in a big way in some ways.

it means they're willing to sacrifice. these hostages they'll try to save them. if they can they're trying to find out. where they are but they've been split up. they've been moved around they've been. put into basements it's going to be very. hard to fight Hamas and worry about the. hostages all at the same. time. does that lead you to believe that.

Israel will or will not show some level. of restraint given that Israeli hostages. will be in this theoretical war zone. it's a very good question and I'm not. sure the answer Israel has always taken. Israeli lives incredibly seriously I. mean it was willing to trade thousands. of prisoners for one Israeli soldier and. to have 150 civilians in side Gaza. creates an enormous moral dilemma and an.

enormous strategic dilemma but I think. Force protection has to be the main and. crucial thing and they're going to save. the people they can save but I don't. think given this war they can worry. overly much about any individual hostage. H I want to understand back to the goal. of this offensive destroying. Hamas what the chances are that Israel.

really can actually wipe out Hamas. that's its stated goal what does that. really even look like does that mean. capturing or killing the most senior. leaders of the organization it has been. the elected government so does it mean. removing all of hamas's officials from. every level of government how should we. understand that well they took power. over Gaza they installed themselves. right I mean it's not like this is some.

wonderfully democratically elected. government that is suddenly about to. fall once they took over they ran a. pretty tough government they set out. after their enemies they mistreated them. they run the place pretty strongly so. it's very hard to get a really good. sense of public opinion the last major. Palestinian poll there was in 2021. and 20 30% of people favored Hamas then.

I'm sure now it's much less and also. gazen now are really terrified of what's. going to happen after this great Hamas. Victory socalled they're waiting for. Israel's retaliation and they are. terrified but Israel I don't think can. destroy Hamas in my own personal opinion. I believe hamas's leaders and. particularly its um military leaders are.

probably no longer in Gaza really yeah. because they can control the battle from. outside their lives are obviously very. valuable and Israel has tried to kill. them in the past so they may be in. various fiscated bunkers way underground. it's possible they may be in tunnels way. underground that's quite possible they. may have slipped into Egypt that's. possible too so so it's going to be very. hard to destroy the Hamas leadership but.

Israel will try to dismantle the power. structure the military structure of. Hamas but the big question everyone has. is well what happens the next day do the. Israelis stay how long do they stay and. also one shouldn't rule out that there. will be uprisings among other. Palestinians both inside Israel inside. the West Bank Israel could would find. that its efforts in Gaza produce much.

more anger and resistance than it. necessarily expects right that is a. question I think has to be on everyone's. mind if Israel succeeds in any way in. dismantling Hamas what will replace it. and it will Israel attempt to influence. what replaces it and thus won't Whatever. government that becomes be very.

suspicious to Palestinians living in. Gaza won't it be seen as a puppet. government of Israel and not legitimate. and doesn't that therefore make this. entire Mission potentially a slow motion. backfiring on Israel if in fact the. Israelis get that far right I mean part. of their problem is they can kill a lot. of Hamas soldiers they can destroy a lot. of equipment and arms they can go house.

to house but they can't prevent the idea. of Palestinian. resistance they can't extinguish that. and I'm sure some group will come to. replace Hamas so no I don't think you. can kill the Palestinian idea the. problem is Gaza as someone said to me. for Israel it's like a one-word argument. for the dangers of giving up control and. trusting Palestinians to run their own.

Affairs and Gaza for Palestinians and. Palestinian supporters is a one-word. argument for. Israeli brutality and patronization and. colonization of another people and. that's a bridge that's very hard to get. over see what you're getting at is what. many see as the utter intractability. of this situation long term and that.

makes me want to understand based on. your. reporting what this moment is supposed. to solve for either side I think it's. fair to say that Hamas knew its attack. inside Israel would elicit a very strong. response and it's now facing what could. be its own demise and Israel may end up. with an even more. aggressive group governing Gaza once.

Hamas is out of power if that happens so. what's. really going to have been accomplished. here well for. Hamas in a way it was a way to remind. the world the Palestinian problems still. exists Israel as you know has been. negotiating with American help to have. normalization with Saudi Arabia to have.

a defense treaty between Saudi Arabia. and the United States and the. Palestinians were always kind of. considered in the way of this I mean. everyone made kind of lip service to oh. we have to do something for the. Palestinians but they were very much put. on the side right and I think part of. what Hamas was doing was reminding the. world that the idea of this kind of. Peace the leas is a bloody nuron and the. Palestinian question cannot be ignored.

for Israel what matters now is to show. the Middle East that it is a ruthless. powerful military force that will never. be attacked this way again the whole. point of these Regional deals that. Israel's been making with the gulf with. the Saudis comes from from the Arab. world's understanding that Israel is a.

fact of life in the Middle East it's. ineradicable which was never really the. Judgment from 67 or 73 and now the. weakness israels displayed in its loss. to Hamas undercuts that fact of. inerratic ability and Israelis feel they. have to restore it despite the cost. their own.

citizens each side is trying to show the. world that the facts it represents will. not go away Hamas is proving to the. world the Palestinian question exists it. cannot be shoved under the carpet or. ignored forever and Israel needs to show. that it will stay a powerful state in. the Middle East. that it is a fact of life and that it.

will never be. eliminated and of course in the middle. of those two very powerful statements. that both sides are making have been and. I presume will be many dead civilians. there will be many dead. civilians well Steve thank you very much. we appreciate it thank you. [Music]. Michael. on Tuesday night Israel said it had.

reestablished control of the towns. attacked by Hamas as the full scope of. the assault came into greater. relief the death toll within Israel. surpassed 1,000 people and Israeli. officials said they had recovered the. bodies of 1,500 Palestinian. asants highlighting just how many. fighters were involved in the. attack as Israel's counter offensive.

intensified the number of dead in Gaza. reached at least 900. people finally in Washington you know. there are moments in this. life and I mean this literally when the. pure unadultered evil is Unleashed on. this. world people of Israel live through one. such moment this weekend. President Biden denounced Hamas as.

bloodthirsty terrorists and called the. groups attack quote an act of sheer evil. so in this. moment we must be Crystal Clear we stand. with. Israel we stand with. Israel we'll be right. back.

here's what else you need to know day. the times reports that allies of former. Republican house Speaker Kevin McCarthy. who was ousted last week are trying to. engineer a potential vote to reinstate. him an idea that McCarthy is open to. House Republicans are expected to select. their next speaker as early as. today the two leading candidates are. Representative Steve scales of Louisiana.

and representative Jim Jordan of Ohio. but it's unclear whether either of them. has enough. support and on Tuesday representative. George Santos the embattled New York. Republican was charged with 10 more. crimes including stealing the identities. and credit cards of donors to his. campaign in one case s Santos allegedly. stole a donor's credit card number to.

transfer more than. $11,000 to his own bank account Santos. now faces a total of 23 federal. charges today's episode was produced by. Carlos prto AA chv and will Reed it was. edited by Patricia Willams and Lisa Chow. contains original music by Dan how Mary. Lozano Diane Wong and Pat mccusker and.

was engineered by Alyssa Moxley our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansburg of. [Music]. wonderl that's it for the daily I'm. Michael. buaro see you. [Music]. tomorrow.