Is China Winning the A.I. Race?

From The New York Times, [music] I'm. Natalie Kitroeff. This is The Daily. >> [music]. >> President Trump is preparing to make a. crucial trip to China this week. >> [music]. >> to meet with Chinese President Xi. Jinping. A key question hanging over that meeting. [music] is artificial intelligence and. whether the global race in AI may be. spinning out of control. >> [music]. >> Today, my colleague Vivian Wang explains.

how China's approaching artificial. intelligence differently from the United. States and [music] what that means about. who's winning the global competition for. AI dominance. >> [music]. >> It's Monday, May 11th. Vivian, we've come to you because you've. been reporting on China for 6 years. Is. that right? Yes. Okay. And your beat has. essentially been AI of late. And I think.

there is one main question that everyone. is asking when it comes to the global AI. race and that is is China beating us? I. think that's a really hard question to. answer because China and the United. States are actually running very. different races with different goals and. different metrics of success. And I think China is very confident that. along its chosen path, it is doing very. well. Okay, so what is that chosen path? Talk to me about that. From the.

beginning, China's strategy when it. comes to AI has been putting it in. people's hands, putting it in factories, putting it everywhere throughout the. economy. It's this focus on real-world. applications. And that's really. different from the way that I think. Silicon Valley and a lot of American. policy makers talk about AI, which is. generally revolving around AGI, right? This idea that AI is building towards. this super powerful super human. intelligence. Whereas China and Chinese. policy makers have always kind of talked.

about AI as this way towards making the. economy run better. Hm. So, if you just walk around on the. street in China, you are going to. encounter different manifestations of AI. everywhere. There are driverless cars in a ton of. Chinese cities. >> [music]. >> There are robots everywhere from. restaurants to just patrolling the.

streets to definitely, of course, in. [music] factories. And people have found ways to use it. [music] in places that we might never. have imagined. I recently talked to a. few different parents who have thought. of really creative ways to use AI in. their children's educations. Huh. I like. myself. One mom had bought this [music] AI. contraption that was basically a. translation mask that she would wear to.

help her kids practice speaking English. A translation mask? >> Yeah, it really looks like [music] the. mask that Bane wears in the Batman. movies. Mommy, who do you like? And the. way it works is that she would speak. into it. in Chinese, and then what would come out. was a version of her voice but speaking. English. I like you. Mommy, I love you, too. >> [music]. >> Wow. And so, she would just wear it.

around the house to talk to her kids. What are you eating? I'm eating. pomegranate. Is it tasty? Yes, it's a delicious. You have to really love AI to like. [music] put on a Bane mask to talk to. your kid. I mean, I just can't totally. imagine it, but that's commitment. [music] Yeah, I think that what's been. really striking to me about observing. just the way that people in China are. talking about and thinking about AI is. people are really excited about it. You.

know, in America when people talk about. AI there's this whole doomer. conversation. A lot of people are really. nervous about it, you know, either. taking their job or taking over the. entire world. And that conversation is. just a lot quieter in China. >> [music]. >> Okay, so when you say that China feels. like it's doing pretty well given the. path that it's taken on AI, what you.

mean by that is making people kind of. fall in love a little bit with AI it. sounds like and also making it so that. AI is everywhere. Yeah, China is really. focused on how AI can be useful to them. now. And that comes in part because China has. a lot of really deep structural issues. that without AI I think they really. don't have a way to solve. So, for. example, the population and the. workforce are aging really quickly. And. how do you solve that if young people.

don't want to have children? Well, maybe. using AI to make your factories more. efficient. Another problem is huge. inequities between access to healthcare. in rural and urban areas. If you don't. have enough doctors, how do you solve. that? Maybe AI doctors are the answer. So, it sounds like in a sense there may. be quite a bit riding on AI from the. Chinese government's perspective if it's. being seen as a potential solution to. all these really important problems. I. think so. Yeah, the Chinese government. historically has always been quite.

optimistic about technology. I mean, if. you look at the past few decades. technology has been a big part of what. has powered China's amazing economic. rise. And so I think they see AI is. basically the latest iteration of some. kind of technology that is going to help. them on this global ascent and is going. to solve these problems that they have. Got it. So, when does that relationship. between the Chinese government and AI. actually begin? What's that story?

So, the key moment is in 2014. It was early in Xi Jinping's tenure as. leader of China and he was giving a. speech to a gathering of some of China's. top engineers and scientists. And he had. gotten a bunch of reports from the. scientists ahead of time kind of giving. him suggestions on what, you know, they. thought China's next direction in. science should be.

And Xi gets up there and he gives a. speech and he says, "Oh, thank you so. much for for all of your suggestions. I. read them all and I was really. interested in this one report that said. intelligent robots are going to be a. really big deal going forward." And he. basically says, "I want China to be on. top of that. I want China to be the. number one maker of intelligent robots. and I also want us to dominate all sorts. of other technologies that are going to. be the future." And this turns into a. plan in 2017 that is called China's new.

generation AI development plan, which is. their first national-level roadmap of. what they are going to do with AI. And it sets out a goal that says they. want China to be. a leading AI power by 2030. And it also. says that the way it's going to get. there is through real-world. applications. And given how things. typically go in China, from my. understanding, I'm assuming that what. happens next is what always happens when. they have a plan, which is that they. pour boatloads of money into it into.

supercharging it. Am I right? Yeah, exactly. It kind of sets the gears of. government going at all levels. >> [music]. >> So, after this national plan comes out, then you have the provincial and local. governments sort of falling over. themselves to show how they are. complying. Yong Zhao is attempting to. recreate a Silicon Valley style work. environment in Beijing's Zhongguancun. district. So, they start building. industrial parks to attract top. companies. They start giving tax breaks.

and sort of free or cheap rent to these. companies. It was a good decision to come back to. China. I think it's easier to get funding here. than in Silicon Valley. And they start. giving them money to attract the top. talent. It's really this [music] all-in. national effort to deliver. And what's. the effect of that? So, for a few years China really feels. like it has the lead in AI. Police in. Beijing have been wearing these glasses. that can recognize faces linked to the.

government's national database. It can. tell whether it is a adult, a child, a. male or female. How advanced [music] is this technology? This is a cutting edge. Especially at. the time they were really focused on. developing technologies like facial. recognition and voice recognition, and. Chinese companies really were at the. forefront of this. They were some of the. best [music] in the world, and this was. of course also really useful for China's. surveillance apparatus. We're trying to. transform our economic model from made. in China to created in China.

But then in 2022, ChatGPT comes on the scene. ChatGPT. ChatGPT ChatGPT is technology accessible. [music] and free to anyone on the web. that impersonates what it's read on the. internet. >> This promises to be the viral sensation. that could completely [music]. reset how we do things. And that really. caught [music] Chinese policy makers and. Chinese tech companies off guard. It. caught everybody off guard. Yeah,

exactly. [music]. And for China, I think it was a moment. that made them sit back and think, "Okay, we thought we had the lead on AI. when it came to facial recognition, but. here is this completely different area, generative AI, that they had not been. thinking about as much.". And it kind of scares the Chinese. government because generative AI, you. know, it's this thing that is looking at. all of the information on the internet.

It's coming up with answers that are. sort of unpredictable. And the Chinese. government becomes really nervous that. this is going to be a threat to their. information controls, their censorship. regime. You know, they don't want. Chinese people plugging questions about. politically sensitive events into a. chatbot and getting answers that they. don't want the people to be getting. Hmm. So, they're looking at this as a. potential threat to their political. model. Exactly. I think that, you know,

they had been thinking about AI as this. really powerful tool for the economy and. in some ways to solidify their grip on. political control, but here is proof. that it also could be a problem. And so, you see them react. ChatGPT is banned in. China. The Chinese government starts. putting out new regulations also on. Chinese AI companies that might be. working on generative AI. For example, they quickly roll out a rule that says. if any Chinese AI company is building a. model that can, quote-unquote, mobilize.

society, it has to first pass a series of checks. and clearances with the Chinese. government before it can be released to. the public. Hmm. What are those checks. and clearances? So, basically, you have. to do safety testing, but I think when. we think about safety testing in the. West, right, it's making sure that the. chatbot is not feeding its users answers. that might push them to self-harm or, you know, feeding hate speech. In China, there is that element, but there's also.

the element of making sure that it. doesn't provide answers about. politically sensitive questions like the. June 4th massacre in Tiananmen Square or. about China's top leaders that the. government might not want Chinese people. asking. It sounds like there's this. tension for the Chinese government. between wanting to dominate in AI which. now includes this world of generative AI. but also from an authoritarian. perspective wanting to maintain as much. control as they can over information. which is so key to powering these.

models. I mean part of the reason for. the success of these chatbots is that. they pull from the entire universe of. information. Yeah, and this is a tension that exists. in China's entire economic development. where the government knows that to allow. its economy to flourish it needs. openness, it needs interaction with the. rest of the world. But of course it also. wants that interaction to happen on its. own terms and within its own control. So. that tension is just even more. pronounced when it comes to AI. Hmm. And.

so they are trying to maintain that. balance, trying to figure out how that. works. And then in early 2025 along. comes Deep Seek. Right. >> Let's talk about Deep Seek because it is. mind-blowing and it is shaking this. entire industry to its core. The. emergence of So Deep Seek was a chatbot. created by a Chinese startup that really. no one had heard of before last year. And it performed basically just as well. as leading models in the [snorts] United. States. Deep Seek says that their AI.

model only cost 5.6. million dollars. Now we don't But. according to the company's founders it. had been trained for so much cheaper. It. was open source. And to have the Chinese. actually open sourcing it meaning that. that is going to be what goes around the. world. Huge, huge step up and change and. puts us a little bit on our back foot in. trying to figure out. >> And it was this wake-up call and this. sign to everybody around the world that. Chinese AI could compete with Silicon.

Valley. I I I think Marc Andreessen put. it really smartly when he said that this. feels like the Sputnik moment for the AI. race. But when. >> And for all of China and the Chinese. government in particular, this is also a. moment of huge national pride. Soon after Deep Seek's release, Xi. Jinping actually called a meeting of a. bunch of business leaders including the.

founder of Deep Seek who's just a guy in. his 30s again who most people have never. heard of before this point. And she tells the entrepreneurs there, "Go out and show your talents and serve. the country.". >> [clears throat]. >> And this is seen as a really important. signal that the government recognized. that it needed to give companies a. little bit more space if it really. wanted them to be on the cutting edge. And so I think what it's essentially.

trying to do here is have its cake and. eat it, too. I talked to an analyst who. I thought put it really smartly. He. said, "The Chinese government is trying. to control what AI says but unleash what. it does.". And so basically, if you are making a. chatbot, if you are making some sort of. AI product that is going to be feeding. information to the Chinese people, you. are going to be under a greater degree. of restrictions. But if you are doing. robotics, if you are doing something.

that doesn't really deal with. information that could directly. influence how Chinese people are. thinking, there are a lot fewer. restrictions there. And did that meeting, did the new. signaling, the new messaging around this. actually lead to concrete changes that. you see in China? Like do you see it. manifest? I think so. I I it's hard to say if it. came directly from that meeting or just. the excitement around DeepSeek in. general, but 2025 and this year have. really just been huge moments of. development in China's AI scene. You've.

seen a ton of new models getting. registered. You've seen a bunch of. startups doing really well. And that's. also where you've seen kind of AI get. diffused so broadly into the economy in. all the ways that we talked about where. everyone's using it all the time. Right. >> [music]. >> And we see how much they're doubling. down on AI just this past March when the. Chinese government released its. five-year plan, which is this grand. economic plan for how China's economy is. going to run for the next five years.

And this plan mentions AI more than 50. times. Wow. [music] So, it's really. clear that they are staking basically. their entire economic future [music] on. dominating AI. And for Washington, that puts China on a. direct collision course [music] with US. tech. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back.

So, in the collision course that the US. sees China running headlong into, what. are China's disadvantages? I wondered, for example, if some of the restrictions. that the government still has on the. development of AI, the control that it. exercises over it, might hold their. industry back in some meaningful ways. Sure. And this is really the. million-dollar question, right? And I. think the answer is both yes and no. So, when you look at just the models.

themselves, the DeepSeek for example, experts I've spoken to actually say that. they don't think the restrictions are. really making DeepSeek meaningfully less. powerful. In the sense that, sure, there. are some topics that DeepSeek cannot. answer, but actually, chatbots from. other also have red lines or sensitive. areas that they can't talk about. >> Right. >> They just might be different. And so, when it comes to actually just the core. performance of the model, if you're not. asking about these sort of few.

politically sensitive questions, experts. seem to think that actually China is not. meaningfully held back. Now, on the. other hand, I think there is a potential. issue when you look at the broader. political environment and the reality. that the government has shown that it's. willing to crack down at any point if it. feels threatened or a little bit not in. control of the entire situation. >> Hmm. And I think that creates a really. uncertain business environment that. could make it difficult for Chinese. companies to thrive. Just talk about.

what the effect of that could be. It. sounds like it could have a chilling. effect, but what is the impact of. knowing that the government could clamp. down at any moment? I think it just. creates a sort of weight in the back of. the entire Chinese private sector's mind. at all times. They always have to be. thinking about where are the red lines. that we have to be careful not to cross. And part of the issue is that that's not. always clear. Sure, there are certain. really obvious ones like the question of. Taiwanese independence, but it's just. really hard to know what might trigger a.

new red line or new dissatisfaction by. the Chinese government. And also, when. it comes to interacting with the rest of. the world, Chinese companies and. founders have to be really careful to. not to maybe get investment from the. wrong people or the wrong countries. We actually saw a really clear example. of this just recently. So, there was a really successful. hyped-up Chinese AI startup called. Manifold. >> Manifold went viral after it claimed to. be the world's first general AI agent.

The agent is able to execute complex. tasks like market research, coding, and. data analysis. It eventually moved to. Singapore, but its founders were. Chinese. Its parent company is Chinese. And last year. >> [music]. >> Meta closing out 2025 with an 11th hour. acquisition. The company announcing it. is buying Manas, >> [music]. >> a Meta announced that it was going to. acquire Manas for $2 billion, which was. a really big deal. But [music] pretty. much immediately after this was. announced, the Chinese government said.

that it was investigating this. acquisition. [music]. And just last month. >> China has blocked Meta's $2 billion. takeover of AI [music] startup Manas, the. >> they actually announced that they were. not going to let the deal go forward. This [music] comes as Beijing continues. to take steps to restrict US investment. in developing Chinese technologies. And. on top of that, during all of this, during this investigation, my colleagues. reported that Manas's founders, after. they went back to China for a visit, were [music] actually blocked from.

leaving China. What you're talking about with this case. is really the Chinese government. actively curtailing the ideal. environment that you would have for. innovation. And it's interesting because. China is famous for doing all of this. aggressive industrial policy making to. fuel its industries at home, but it. sounds like AI may just be a different. beast. Yeah, AI is just such a new field.

and also such a a diverse field, right? There are so many different types of AI. And so, the government can't just say, "Okay, this is the particular direction. that you need to go. We're going to. throw money at this particular problem. and we will suddenly be the world's AI. leaders." You really need to give. scientific minds and researchers kind of. the space and freedom to experiment and. and to kind of follow where their. scientific intuitions or or their. research is leading them. There's a. long-standing stereotype that might be a.

bit of an overgeneralization, but a lot of people tell me that they. think it still holds true, which is that. China is really good at the one to 10 of. scientific research, which is taking. some kind of scientific discovery and. finding the ways to just apply it. everywhere and really make it useful, but it's not as good at the zero to one, which is just getting to that. breakthrough discovery in the first. place. And I think that's where the. political environment does play a little. bit of a role. Right, you can't force. innovation from a top-down strategy.

So, is that the main disadvantage that. China sees itself having vis-a-vis the. US? Are there others? There are two. other really major areas. So, one is. chips and another one is talent. So, on. chips, which are the powerful hardware. that's necessary for training AI models, the fact is that Chinese chips are just. not as powerful as American ones. So, Chinese AI companies are still really. reliant on chips from Nvidia to make the.

best AI that they can. Nvidia, an. American company. >> Yeah. And China has spent hundreds of. billions of dollars on trying to develop. domestic powerful chips, but they just. haven't gotten there yet. And then the. other problem is talent. So, China. produces many, many, many extremely. talented AI researchers every year, but. without the sort of open, innovative. environment that we were just talking. about, many of them may choose and do. choose to go to the United States. And.

so, Chinese companies and Chinese. policymakers have talked very openly. about how a shortage of talent is. another problem that they have to face. These are pretty significant handicaps. that China has. Just to summarize what. you've said, it's an imperfect. environment for innovation, less. powerful chips, and this talent issue. But, at the same time, we've also spent. the better part of this conversation. talking about all the ways in which. China is ahead in making AI practically.

useful in people's lives, and making. sure it is everywhere. So, just to. return to that question that we wrestled. with in the beginning of this, is China coming out on top in the global. AI race? I think if the end destination. of all of this AI is indeed AGI, this. superhuman intelligence that is just. going to run the world, then I do think. American companies are closer to that. I. do think Silicon Valley is closer to the.

cutting edge of technology. But, it it. is important to point out that China is. not that far behind. It's a few months. behind by most experts' estimates. But, if AGI is not the final. destination, I mean, if it's not even. possible, and the real way to go is to. just use AI to improve our daily lives. now, then I think China has the edge. because it already has deployed AI so. much more than the US has. And, it's. also important to note that by putting.

AI everywhere, in these robots, in these. driverless cars, it's also generating a. bunch of new data all the time that is. making these Chinese models even better. every single day, which helps solve one. of the bigger problems in AI these days, which is kind of just running out of. training data. China is just constantly. generating new data for its own models. So, at the end of the day, I think that. the problem is AI is still so full of so. many unknowns. We don't know what the. future of this technology is. We don't.

know what exactly it means to dominate. AI or what it would take to dominate AI. And so, it's really impossible to say. who is pursuing the right path. Vivian, do you think there's a lesson for US. companies in China's approach to AI? Because, it does seem as though the. ambition of reaching toward the. superhuman intelligence is so. quintessentially American. It's the. biggest, most innovative version of this.

tech possible, but it's also potentially. backfiring in a sense because it seems. to be turning a lot of people against. this technology very forcefully. Whereas. focusing on more mundane, maybe less. ambitious goals. may be a more popular route. Yeah, I. think it is a really interesting. contrast with the United States, where. the public hesitation or even pushback. to AI is creating, in many ways,

political problems for these AI. companies. But in China, because people. are feeling that this AI is actually. tangibly improving their lives. It's. making their commute smoother. It's. making their food get delivered to them. faster. It's making products maybe. cheaper because factories are more. efficient. People really feel that this. technology could be something that is. good for them. >> [snorts]. >> And I think it's worth noting that we. have started to see the conversation in. China shift a little bit, especially in.

recent months. We have seen people start. to talk a little bit more about what. happens to my job if AI becomes. everywhere. But I think that sentiment is still not. as, maybe, prominent as it is in the. United States. And actually, that is maybe an. interesting result of the government. restrictions that we talked about. So, yes, on the one hand, they might make it. more difficult for Chinese companies to. innovate. But on the other hand, I think. there's a general sense among many.

Chinese people that the Chinese. government will keep this whole sector. under control. It will make sure that AI. is just not getting out of hand and. leaving society totally unstable. And. so, that also creates a certain degree. of trust in the technology. Right. And I. think, ironically, in the US, the fact. that we have this more free-wheeling. environment when it comes to AI, there's. something about that that makes people. more afraid of it. And that backlash.

from the grassroots right now, that. could end up being a problem down the. line for AI development in the US. That. could be a headwind. >> [music]. >> Yeah, I think that could prove to be a. real impediment to AI development in. America. >> [music]. >> That is probably just not going to play. out in the same way in China. Well, Vivian, thank you so much. Thank. you, Natalie. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back.

Here's what else you need to know today. So, what the Virginia Supreme Court did. was [music] not only wrong, it was. disgraceful. They basically Democrats. are scrambling to respond to a Virginia. Supreme Court decision on Friday, [music]. which struck down a new congressional. map that would have given the party an. advantage in the [music] midterms. You. know, the voters will have the last word. on this. The fallout of the decision is. huge. Even though Democrats are still.

expected to win the House, [music] they. now have to flip more seats in hostile. territory. In its 4-3 [music] decision, the court. said that Democrats had violated the. state's constitution by drawing a new. map meant to give the party [music] 10. of the state's 11 House seats. In a private call [music] on Saturday, Democratic lawmakers discussed trying to. restore the map with a move that would. replace the entire state Supreme Court. [music] by lowering the age of. retirement. It was unclear how many.

Democrats would support such a drastic. solution. [music]. And passengers and crew from the cruise. ship that was hit by a deadly hantavirus. [music] outbreak were evacuated on. Sunday. The ship anchored off the Canary. Islands in Spain, [music] where health. officials checked the passengers'. temperatures and symptoms. The Spanish health minister said. everyone [music] on board was. asymptomatic. >> [music].

>> Today's episode was produced by [music]. Shannon Lin and Ricky Nicasio. It was. edited by Lisa Chow and contains music. by Marion Lozano, >> [music]. >> Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This. episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. >> [music]. [music].

>> That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. See you tomorrow. [music].