Introducing ‘The Interview’: Yair Lapid Says the World Misunderstands Israel

hey it's Michael just want to let you. know what we're up to this weekend in. the daily feed our colleagues have been. working on a brand new show one that. they're calling simply the interview. it'll be hosted some weeks by Lulu. Garcia novaro you may know her from the. show first person or from NPR other. weeks it'll be hosted by David maresi. who's been doing a terrific interview. future for the Times magazine over the. past few years on the show David and. Lulu will be in interviewing all kinds.

of interesting people actors politicians. writers we're not going to spill too. many details right now but we can say. they opening lineup looks. fantastic that includes this weekend. when they're launching the show David is. speaking with the actress an Hathaway. Lulu is speaking with yair Leed the. leader of the opposition party in Israel. so this weekend we're going to bring you. both of those shows and then in the. following weeks we'll be sharing every. episode here on Saturday in the daily.

feed okay here's one of the First. episodes of the interview Lulu speaking. with Y ear. Leed take a. listen this is the interview a new show. from the New York Times I'm Lulu Garcia. Navaro I first arrived in the Middle. East in 2002 during the second inata or. Palestinian Uprising I lived in. Jerusalem and reported on Israelis and.

Palestinians off and on for the. following decade there were stretches of. horrific violence while I was there but. even during the darkest moments I saw. that many people on both sides of the. conflict believed that peace could be. achieved that no longer feels true since. Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th. killing over a thousand Israelis and. capturing hostages Israel's response has. been Swift and brutal more than 30,000.

Palestinians in Gaza have been killed. the majority of them civilians according. to the local authorities most of gaza's. infrastructure has been destroyed and. international pressure is mounting on. prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu to end. the war and to avoid a new one with. Iran in this moment I wanted to talk to. one of netanyahu's most vocal critics. inside Israel y Leed Leed is the. official leader of the Israeli. opposition.

he's a former journalist TV host and. actor who entered Israeli politics over. a decade ago founding a Centrist party. called yesha he briefly became prime. minister of Israel in 2022 and he. remains a member of the knesset or. Israeli Parliament after October 7th he. refused to join netanyahu's war cabinet. he's called for new elections to replace. the current government and he's publicly. endorsed a two-state solution something. Netanyahu has actively worked against. against for my first episode of this new.

show I spoke to Leed about the war and. what comes next we talked twice and like. all conversations about the Middle East. these were complicated and. emotional here's my interview with year. Leed Mr Leed before we dig in on. specifics can you just tell me as an. Israeli leader as an Israel.

citizen how you're feeling about this. moment in Israeli history I mean we've. seen just a slew of unprecedented things. happen this is so true how do I feel. about this I feel I guess. separate about this as a political. leader and as a an Israeli as an Israeli. I'm as worried as I ever been I feel the. fragility of our society I feel the pain. I meet with the hostage family.

and discuss with them the endless pain. and fear and Agony they have and of. course there's no way for me not. to imagine me being in their place if my. children were there or my my mother was. there held by a terror. organization and um I'm haunted by. memories of October 7th by the. implications on our. security as a political leader there I'm.

worried but a different kind of worried. because uh I don't think we have the. right leadership to handle the. moment and uh I feel a little. uncomfortable discussing this in English. with the New York Times because you know. traditionally we used to say no no we're. not going to get into Israeli politics. while dealing with the international. media but this is so. extreme and uh so painful so what we. need is a restart as a nation as people. and on top of this.

I feel. misunderstood you personally or the. country both but mostly the country I. feel that we are fighting an existential. War I don't think people understand the. level of fear and. angst I don't think people I people I. mean the International Community the. international media sometimes it is. horrifying to me to see this footage of.

young people marching in American. campuses shouting from The River To The. Sea and then you ask them do you know. what river is or what SE is and they. have no clue so we are they're putting. us on the side of the bad guys without. even knowing what happened what have we. been going through so if you feel that. there's a mixture of uh uh feelings that. I'm describing you're right it is a. mixture but none of it is really great.

H you came to the us earlier this month. to meet with us political leaders. including Secretary of State Tony. blinkin Senate Majority Leader Chuck. Schumer I do want to ask you how you. think Mr Netanyahu has handled relations. with the current US Administration I. mean it could be argued that the prime. minister's government has its certain. moments almost tried to embarrass the. Biden Administration I'm thinking of. when Secretary of State blinkin went to. Tel Aviv even on the same day a new.

settlement expansion in the West Bank. was announced Biden has been a real. friend to BB but is BB a friend to. Biden. no and. uh it is heartwarming the way the. president has handled this because he. was able to. maintain the idea that supporting Israel. is his historic role as an American. president and he's done so in an.

election year which is even more. impressive to me because right now part. of what is so dangerous in the current. phase of the relations Is that I put it. this way I don't think Israel is going. to be the reason for anyone to win or. lose an American. election but if President Biden will. lose the election there's going to be a. lot of people in the Democratic party. who's going to say it's because of. Israel or at least this is going to be. one of the.

claims and then Israel instead of being. an electoral uh currency or value or an. advantage has become a liability which. is. horrible you blame that on prime. minister Netanyahu or you blame that on. the war itself because we've seen an. impassioned Pro Palestinian movement. here in the US that. fundamentally seems to have shifted the. way the public views.

Israel well. blame is complicated first and. foremost I blame it on a. cynical this is not even prop. Palestinian a pro-islamic pro-. fundamentalism radical Islamic movement. that is using the lack of knowledge from. Mostly from American youngsters who know. nothing about and they're buying this as. part of of the ongoing struggle between.

the oppressors and those who are. oppressed or between uh White privileged. people and people who are not and you. know we keep telling them you know Anna. Frank was not a white privileged kid and. the story is not what you are told and. how come you are Marching in favor of. people who want to kill and Jews because. they're Jews because this is the. wayas and the Islamic Jihad are. and they're supporting them against the.

Democratic country this is to me. unbelievable in so many. ways but I also blame an Israeli. government who doesn't understand or. doesn't seem to care about its primary. duty to make this easier for those who. support us in the United States uh to be. supportive while not for example making. sure.

sess violence is restrained while not. making sure we're doing what needs to be. done in terms of explaining what is. really happening in the war in Gaza and. you know what not doing the simple. things like saying yes our heart is. broken when children are dying in Gaza. because children not are not supposed to. die in grown-ups Wars and because we. have no war with children and we try to. do our outmost to void from hurting the.

innocent and this is this is a very. dense populated area this is a very. cruel war against an enemy that uses his. own people his own children his human. Shields and and casualties are sometimes. inevitable but we are sorry and we are. you know what the ridiculous thing is we. are doing our best the Israeli defense. Army is doing its best to avoid this and. yet the government is not saying so out. loud because they're afraid of some.

ignorant I don't know populist voices. that might say they're soft on handling. the war this is this is just outrageous. to me I mean you say that Israel is. sorry for the great loss of Palestinian. life but one of the big points of. contention not only here in the United. States but globally is that very fact. that there has been a restriction of aid.

that Israel has been using massive bombs. in the Gaza Strip and as you note it is. densely populated that it has been. flattened do you agree with the measures. taken so far and the conduct of the. war well there's no simple answer. basically we should have pushed inside. Gaza more Aid and we are doing so now uh. after way too long but there's something. to be said before.

that what is the alternative because. right now to to engage in this war has. only one alternative and this is being. murdered I mean we never asked for this. war we never wanted this war and we only. uh went out for this war because our. children were burned alive because our. elderly were killed because we have uh. hostages in the teror Tas and they raped.

women and they conquered Villages and. more than that they have openly said. they mean Hamas that if they have a. chance they'll do it again and therefore. we are in Gaza to make sure it will. never happen again October 7th was the. worst day in the history of the Jewish. people since the Holocaust so it is our. duty to make sure it will never happen. again and therefore we were forced and. and I I want to emphasize this.

forced into Gaza and into this. war the way that this war has been. conducted the fact that Gaza is going to. be left in tatters there's been an. enormous loss of life we've seen this in. other parts of the world in which the. Next Generation what they learn from. that is that a group like Hamas actually. is their representative at least they. defend them.

I guess how in the conduct of this war. is this actually going to increase. Israel's. security you know on I think it was on. October 11th four days after the the. massacre President Biden gave the first. speech about what happened and he said. there there is such a thing in life as. pure. evil and I think he was signaling to. those of us who are saying you know you. know everything is relative everybody.

has their own narrative every story has. two sides to it no sometimes there is. right and wrong in this world sometimes. there is Justice and Injustice Hamas is. a murderous bunch of people who they. they want to kill us because who we are. not because something we did and because. they are religious Fanatics the only way. to handle them is to fight them and you. know what I give more credit to the.

Palestinians and I said maybe not in. this generation but maybe the next. Generation they will choose good over. evil they will choose an advanced. Society over a society that is. dedicating itself to death and. destruction they will I mean what you. are saying is and of course I'm not. holding this against you because I know. you're just asking the question but. basically what the implication of what. you're saying is that the Palestinians. are not capable of making right choices.

well I think they might be capable of. making right choices I have maybe more. trust in them than you are and I think. they can choose life over death and. building over destruction it is possible. and the problem is we don't find enough. Palestinians right now who are willing. to make this. Choice Mr le as I hear you speaking I. hear things that remind me of certain. comments that I've heard Mr Netanyahu. make and so oh now we're going into.

insults it's no I think no no I'm. kidding I'm kiding I'm kidding it's not. insults I I am wondering you very. deliberately did not join the war. cabinet can you tell me why you didn't. you lead the opposition and just hearing. you speak about your defense of the. conduct of the war I'm wondering what. you are in opposition. to part of it is uh because somebody has. to say out loud we have to maintain our.

Democratic spine we have to make sure we. handling this at least the best uh that. we can and uh we have to understand that. the future lies also with discussing. this with other Palestinians like the. Palestinian. Authority and uh also I. think having a an opposition during war. time is even more important than it is. during peace time in a democracy this.

country needs someone who will speak. about the future in different terms we. need in this country somebody who will. be able to talk to the American. Administration or to the American. political realm in a different language. and we need people who will say let us. remember that we don't want to be like. them we want to be different this what. makes us strong so and and besides I. feel that um prime minister netan is. part of what what led us to has has a.

huge responsibility to what led us to. the current situation and sitting behind. him and and becoming a front or or. legitimizing his uh Premiership doesn't. seem to be like a good idea the people. of Israel need to know there is a. possibility for a different future for. them but yes there are views in which I. mean I'm an Israeli Patriot I think the. Israeli Army is conducting self in.

terrible sometimes impossible. circumstances in an honorable way and. doing its best to avoid hurting the. innocent and therefore I feel obligated. to defend the way the Israeli Defense. Forces are are dealing with themselves. but on the other hand I'm when something. terrible like uh when we heard heard. when when we Israel accidentally killed. the employees of the world kitchen. organization I will be the first one to.

say listen we are sorry this shouldn't. have happened and to demand there will. be an investigation to demand that there. will be results to these investigations. so I think this voice is necessary so I. I I think I did the right thing staying. out of. government this brings us to this moment. in Israel you have called for new. elections MH but meanwhile the situation. with Iran has also. escalated it's no longer a shadow War. where the two parties avoid direct.

conflict what do you think needs to. happen do you still think there needs to. be new. elections yes because this is not ideal. of course to have an election within. when the fighting is still going on and. we don't know where it's going but we. only dealing now and we have dealt with. since October 7th bad options we just. have bad options and between the bad. options an election a quick election we. can have it in in in 60 days and an.

election day is just a day but basically. we don't have the right government for. the challenges we have so we have to. make the effort and replace this. government with and a government that. can deal with the war with the Iranians. with with the relations with the. American Administration create an. alliance with the Saudis with the amirit. with others in order to change the. course not only of Israel but also the. entire Middle East and and and make this.

into an anti Iranian Alliance so what we. need to do is to recreate and. rejuvenize the alliance we have with the. moderate Sunni States for this to happen. we need to have with them a discussion. that talks both about the Iranians and. the Palestinians because this is their. demand and this is also for our own good. and therefore we need to be able to tell. them yes we we are going to work with.

the Palestinian Authority and we're. going to start in Gaza because we have. to rebuild and reconstruct Gaza and. rehabilitate Gaza and we have to do this. with the Saudis with the amorites and. with the Palestinian Authority and so. what should happen to Gaza and the. Palestinians after the war who should. pay for the rebuilding who should govern. it where should the displaced people go. I mean specifically I'm just wondering. what your particular vision. is well we should build an.

alliance of as I said the moderate Sunni. States the Palestinian Authority the. International Community United States. the European uh uh Union whoever is is. these days showing so much. concern uh and Israel in order to start. rebuilding and replacing Hamas because. as long as Hamas is there and Hamas is. active and Hamas has has control over. the the territory there will be no.

future for the people of Gaza they have. to understand this but basically if you. ask me in in 2021 I presented a plan. that was named economy for. security uh I'm free translating this. from Hebrew now uh which meant let's. give the people of Gaza an an economic. future in Return of displacing Hamas. with something more positive so what do. we know about these people we know that.

they are not Hamas Mr Le I I I just want. to jump in here yeah go ahead you're. talking about actually what has been a. very old idea I mean as you know I I. covered um Israel and the Palestinian. territories for many years and the idea. of giving economic prosperity to the. Palestinians has been bandied about for. decades but very little of this debate. has been about. the occupation for many years including.

when you were prime minister there was a. sense that when it came to the. Palestinians the status quo could simply. be accepted and ignored the idea that. Palestinians would want their own. self-determination their own State could. be put aside and that somehow economic. Prosperity could be a. substitution do you think that idea was. wrong were you.

[Music]. wrong well I never said this but so I. wasn't wrong I I I always said the the. difference between the Israelis and the. Palestinians is that and people tend not. to understand it's not you because you. covered you just said it now that that. economics is the No No is the path. forward no but I didn't say. it instead of self recognition instead. of the two-state solution I said you. asked me about Gaza specifically the. problem in Gaza specifically is the.

rebuilding of Gaza but if I may the. difference between the Israelis and the. Palestinians the. Israelis main concern is security the. Palestinian main concern is. self-recognition and and and respect and. I I understand this and I understand. that in the end of the road what we need. is to have uh two states one hopefully. in in peace living in peace one next to. each other one should be stronger than.

the other or the other one should be. demilitarized this is this is I mean the. economy is you just asked me. specifically about Gaza but the answer. about the Palestinians is that yes I. again I support on the long term and. after all security measurements have. been implemented the idea that these two. people will separate but I want to. separate from them which is it's not a. favor I'm doing the pales it's for my. own good and separating from the.

Palestinians should come from a position. of power because of the horrific events. that happened to us lately and not so. lately I want to step back for a moment. and talk about what's happening inside. Israel I mean the country was reaching a. boiling point even before October 7th. there were hundreds of thousands of. people in the streets every weekend. protesting the Netanyahu government's. plans for judicial reform you know.

reservists were threatening not to serve. and there's been this growing conflict. between the religious and the secular it. seems to me like the country is at war. with itself it's as unstable as unsure. as I've ever seen it what do you. see I agree I agree and I worried I'm. worried and I. feel that this is part of the. existential threat. and I feel that one of the reason Hamas.

has decided to invade us and and and. kill all those people is because he. looked at the Israeli government and he. said to himself well this is my moment. it's not like Kamas didn't want to kill. Jews two years ago three years ago four. years ago they always wanted to kill. Jews but they felt that the Israeli. government is weakening the state in a. way it wasn't weakened before and. therefore this is their chance and they. did and you're right I'm as worried as I.

ever been uh for the future of our. country it is it is I mean for those of. us who are history Buffs we know that. sometimes it takes only one really bad. government in order. to I don't want to say destroy but. weaken a country from within. significantly and we have the wrong. government for what we need and and we. will need to replace it in order to. build a better.

future Mr Leed thank you very much and. it's actually not the complete end of. our conversation because I'm going to. talk to you in a few days talk to you. soon after the break I call Mr Leed back. this is something we're going to be. doing on the show I was glad to be able. to put some of my lingering questions to. Mr Leed. and he told me more about why he feels.

misunderstood so the thing is that now. in order to get the sympathy and the. empathy of the western world I have to. remind them every 5 Seconds that we are. the victims in this is to me is a. horrible idea. [Music]. [Music].

hi Lulu how are you this is the. interview I'm Lulu Garcia. Naro Mr Leed the reason I wanted to talk. to you is because I wanted to understand. you know what the current Israeli. opposition stands for the opposition. that I knew when I was there around 2012. that no longer exists as you know the. left is gone now and so I wanted to sort.

of understand what kind of opposition. you. represent as we've been. talking what I've heard is as it comes. to the war there's really not a lot of. opposition at all and Israel is being. accused of genocide of war crimes and as. we've talked you've defended the conduct. of the war and you've referred to. yourself as an Israeli Patriot but I. suppose my question is can patriotism. not also be defined as questioning the.

conduct of this. war of course it. is I assume I was reacting it is not to. you but what to what I feel is the. Betrayal of the. intellectuals. meaning that people the intellectuals of. the west or some of them has betrayed. the idea of complexity of is this either. Geno side or uh existential War for.

Israel or are there other options. because what I think is that and this is. my duty as the leader of the Israeli. opposition is to tell the Israeli. government you need to handle this war. better than you do now we understand the. need of course to defend the country to. defend the people to react to What. happened on October 7th and to eliminate. all hamas's military capabilities and on. the other hand to stay what we are which. is a democracy that feels about human.

rights that is doing its best in terms. of defending the idea of humanity and uh. as we have discussed defend this in. circumstances that are no less than. horrible and the dialogue I have or we. have with the outside world is either. with people who are. chanting slogans they don't really. understand or who are are determined to.

make this into a one-sided story no. Israel is not committing genoside no. Israel is not doing anything but defend. itself in a war we didn't want and these. are not prog government things this is. just the reality of people who are. hurting and um the fact that I oppose. the government so much doesn't mean I. need to oppose the idea of self-defense. yeah I I understand that and I.

feel what I'm thinking about actually is. just what it means in A Moment Like This. to effectively even if you care about. Israel and the Israelis say this is not. okay you know earlier you disparaged the. young people in the US Marching for. Palestinian rights and you say that. they're cluess and misled yeah I don't. think they're Marching for your. Palestinian rights I think they're. marching against Palestinian rights. right I think what they're doing is.

against the best interest of the. Palestinian people yeah but doesn't that. dismiss their sort of legitimate. concerns and and the people may have. generally about the civilian. deaths well I think they should. understand that there is a. reason why everything is happening is. happening and the reason is Hamas the. reason is not Israel I mean not to be. able to even track why what is happening. is happening is a total lack of even I.

don't know intellectual dignity or at. least curiosity to what is going on and. you know I was thinking after our this. first discussion I was trying to figure. out because I told myself well at one. point or another I was defensive and she. was Defensive why was it so I don't know. about you but I know about myself and. the reason is because I refuse to be. involved in a Contex in which who is the. victim. I am done being a victim I'm I I'm done.

being a victim since uh uh June. 1945 so the thing is that now in order. to get the sympathy and the empathy of. the western world I have to say to. remind them every five seconds that we. are the victims in this is to me is a. horrible idea I rather tell them listen. we're fighting for their life and we're. going to do whatever is necessary in. order to win this fight because we are. done being victims now the more popular. thing to do is to go into a fist fight.

with the Palestinians about the question. who's hurting more but this is a. pleasure I'm not going to give anyone so. maybe this is why I became a bit. frustrated in our our previous. conversation because I was supposed to. prove that I am more of a victim than. the Palestinians I am no victim i a. citiz a proud citizen of a great country. who is fighting for its life and in. terrible circumstances while trying our. best not to hurt the Palestinians. because they are living here with us and.

we need to find ways to make sure they. have a future as well it's always struck. me as a fundamental disconnect because. Israel doesn't feel there is enough. acknowledgment of the existential threat. that they're under you're articulating. this right now to and Israel's Critics. on the Palestinian question want Israel. to see that it can't be a true democracy. with real security when it oppresses and. occupies millions of Palestinians. so I'm wondering can you understand that.

point of view of course and and since. you have covered Israel then you know. unlike others the numerous time now that. Israel has offered the Palestinians. statehood and they refused again and. again and again and again but you know. there's another version of this story so. I guess you know what yeah there is. another version of the story but it's a. it's not the right one and I was. involved so I know and I want to tell. you something else I walked one day to a. meeting with a a very smart foreign.

minister it was years ago she was she. was one of the smartest people I I know. and she came into the room and she. started the conversation by telling me. that like everybody does she people. always said that said you know we. recognize Israel's right to defend. itself and I said why are you saying. this and she said what do you mean I. said do you go into a meeting with the. French foreign minister and tell him. that you recognize France's right to.

defend itself is there any other country. you tell that they have a right to. defend itself why are you emphasizing. the fact I wasn't angry with her I was. just curious about the question why is. it that she felt the need to tell me. that I'm entitled to defend myself and. not to die. silently now I think you and I have. succeeded which is a great success to go. that far into our conversation without. mentioning the possibility that maybe it. is because we are Jews but maybe it is.

because we are Jews this is something. I've heard a lot from Jews outside of. Israel and obviously inside Israel but. you also know the other side of this. which is that many Palestinians look at. the context of the. occupation look at how they have been. treated and say that this context isn't. as simple as who is the victim of this.

particular cycle of. violence well I don't want this cycle of. violence and no Israeli in is right my. we have our own fair share of lunatics I. I'm not going to defend them but the. majority of Israelis doesn't want this. this cycle of violence and if somebody. will enable us to separate from the. Palestinians meaning if we will have. somebody to talk to on the Palestinian. side about separating they will be a. vast majority of Israelis for the this.

separation and the problem is right now. listen you are hearing it's not it has. again it's not against you what you're. hearing is frustration because I I I I. do not seem to put my mind around the. fact that five minutes after the worst. massacre of Jews since the Holocaust we. have already defending ourselves from. people who are telling us well we. question your right to defend yourself. because this is this is I don't know. it's again you you are part of the white.

privileged world and therefore you're. not entitled to self-defense it doesn't. make sense to me it frustrates me and. and I hate the idea that I keep telling. myself that I'm glad that my father is. not alive to see this your father Tommy. leit who was of course a minister and. and and a holocaust Survivor and a. holocaust Survivor I remember him well. he he his entire life was the way out of.

the basement in The Budapest ghetto in. which in which the Nazis has put him in. and then if he was alive now he would be. locked with me and my daughter with. special needs in the basement of my. house because somebody is trying to kill. us again so this the fact that we we do. not seem to be able to rescue ourself. from being locked in a basement. surrounded by people who wants to kill. us is pretty frustrating for the people. of.

Israel this is my last question but this. is a question about the future because. you know poll by the Israel democracy. Institute shows that 63% of the Jewish. Israeli public now do not support an. independent Palestinian State you say. that is because of the history and that. very well may be. true and you've made it very clear where. you stand you want to see the Netanyahu. government resign you do believe in a. two-state solution. but it seems that even if BB goes his.

politics remain popular so where does. that leave I guess the opposition after. this war the very Prospect of Peace how. do you move Israelis to your. side the whole idea I mean politics can. be as you very well. know horrible but also and sometimes. very rarely also beautiful and it is. only beautiful is when you get a chance. to change people Minds to talk to them. to be able to communicate to them new.

ideas and it's always a battle of ideas. and it's the only battle worth living. for I am as I said and and you quoted. I'm a patriot and you're right. patriotism is sometimes telling people. what they don't want to hear you know. you always have this question about what. leadership is and what people tend to. forget is that leadership is always. opposite your own people not the enemy. opposite the enemy get two good generals. and they will fight the war for you and.

besides there's Simplicity into it. because it's a war they are against you. then you have to fight back when you go. to your own people and tell them things. they don't want to hear and convince. them in one day one way or another this. is what we're going to try and do we're. going to try and make the netan. government go away because it's. disastrous and dangerous and. irresponsible and nonfunctional on top. of this and then we going to tell the. Israelis we have to make a decision.

about our future and this decision is. going to be based on the idea that I. discussed with you that in order to stay. the strongest country in the Middle East. we also need to stay the strongest. democracy in the Middle East and in. order to be that democracy we have to. start the long journey the 1,000 mile. the first step of the 1,000 mile journey. to separate from the Palestinians. [Music].

Mr laped thank you very much I. appreciate your time thank you. lulu that's y Leed this conversation was. produced by Wyatt orm it was edited by. Annabelle bacon mixing by aim Shapiro. original music by Dan Powell and Marian. Lozano photography by avesag shaar yeshu. the rest of the team is priia Matthew.

and Seth Kelly our executive producer is. Allison Benedict special thanks to Zev. Levy Isaac Jones Maddie masello Nick. Pitman Rory Walsh Kathy Ryan Gail. bickler Ben granette snigga Killa renan. belli Jeffrey Miranda Aima chabani jeie. Choy Jake Silverstein Paula Schuman and. Sam dolnick thanks so much for listening. and we've got more for you to listen to.

since this is the first week of our new. show we're launching with two episodes. my co-host is David maresi and this week. he's talking to an Hathaway about her. new movie the idea of you and about how. she's made peace with not making. everyone happy one of the ways that you. make your way is like oh if I do this. and that that that'll make someone else. happy and maybe that's what I'm supposed. to be doing and it takes a really long. time to go well it doesn't really matter. if if you you don't know who you are. unless unless you just want an identity.

that's all about pleasing people which I. suppose is perfectly valid as well but. I'm not that. nice if you like what you're hearing. subscribe to the interview wherever you. get your podcasts and to read or listen. to any of our conversations you can. always go to NY. times.com thein I'm Lulu Garcia Naro and. this is the interview from The New York. Times. [Music].