Inside Ukraine’s Invasion of Russia

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thedaily my name is Andrew Kramer I'm a. reporter for the New York Times I'm. standing on the highway where Ukrainian. troops are moving tanks and armored. vehicles uh into. Russia uh every every few minutes uh we. have tanks trucks with soldiers uh. rumbling past and in and in the. direction of. Russia from The New York Times I'm.

Michael babbaro this is the daily uh. Ukraine sliced through the Border area. pushed through uh minefields and thinly. Mann defenses and has been pressing. deeper into Russia when Ukraine's. military crossed over into Russia 2. weeks ago it appeared at first to be a. largely symbolic gesture but in the time. since it's emerged as a defining moment. in the 2-year-old War this is the first.

major military uh incursion into Russia. since World War II today Andrew Kramer. on what's behind the audacious Ukrainian. operation and Anton troyanovsky on how. Russia's response could reshape the. [Music]. conflict it's Wednesday August 21st.

Andrew I wonder if you can take us back. to the moment when you discovered that. this pretty unimaginable thing had. occurred Ukrainian troops entering. Russian territory and turning the basic. equation of this war upside down well. the entire operation was shrouded in. secrecy so the first reports were. actually from Russian social media posts. and everything was a little bit vague we. were seeing reports of fighting along.

the border but nothing indicating the. scale of what was to come the secret was. very well guarded it wasn't clear until. the second day that this was more than a. border Skirmish that this was a full. Ukrainian military invasion of Russia. and that Ukraine had taken control of a. rural area in the southwestern part of. Russia so what do you do there in ke or. I imagine you're absorbing this. information once you realize that such a. major turning point in this conflict has.

just begun to unfold well we decided to. head out to the Border region in. northeastern Ukraine and and have a look. at how this appeared on the ground M and. this required a little bit of logistics. we used an armored car that the bureau. has and I I don't think I knew that we. had an armored car we do and initially. we were watching and talking to uh. soldiers and officers about this. incursion and then also creeping forward. toward the border to uh get a firsthand. look and we drove you know over a very.

high plane where the road passes into. Russia and it's a very rural area of. corn fields and Country Roads and then. ahead of us was the Border completely. unguarded seemingly deserted at least. from a. distance so this was a remarkable moment. as somebody who covered Russia the idea. of the Russian border being open and. deserted by the Russian military was. really. remarkable and once you get inside what. are are you seeing we got out of the car.

and looked. around and saw really a tableau of. Destruction this was a Russian. Administrative Building maybe three. stories tall at one point before it was. bombarded now sheep metal was just. flapping in the wind all the windows. were blown out and we looked around and. there were craters in the ground from. artillery and debris shells from a fight. a firefight were were tinkling Under. Foot when we walked and there were.

Customs forms and other administrative. documents blowing on the ground and a. little bit further on there was a a sign. over the road that said Russia it was a. very eerie scene and and what we were. looking at was the detrius of a lost. battle to defend the Russian. border so we walked around this site and. we noticed some Ukrainian soldiers who. were wearing surgical masks and it. became clear that what we were seeing.

was a grim task by these soldiers of. clearing the bodies of dead Russians. from this building that had been. destroyed in the initial attack on the. Russian. border we watched them load bodies and. and zip them into body bags and this was. really you know a grim scene of just. what a difficult fight and losing fight. this had been for Russian border guards. at this site.

this section of the Border had likely. been chosen in part because it was. guarded by Russian conscript soldiers. and these are very green inexperienced. soldiers who've been drafted after high. school and in almost all cases that we. know of they retreated abandoned their. positions or they surrendered there were. small arms cartridges and there were. sandbags in this location firing. positions but there was no indication. that they were expecting an army to come. across the border at them mhm so after.

about 40 minutes we decided it was time. to go and got back in our armored car. and drove back into Ukraine back into. the relative safety of the Cities far. from the front. line once you return to Ukraine Andrew. what do you end up learning about the. scope of this operation clearly you had. just witnessed one place where Ukrainian. troops had crossed the border and. clearly done a significant amount of. damage to the Russian administrative.

border crossing but how much territory. was involved in this and how many. Russian troops were killed or taken the. ultimate scale of the invasion was. significant by some estimates about. 10,000 Ukrainian soldiers were involved. wow this one border post was not the. only target they crossed in multiple. locations and once they had breached the. Border quickly fanned out on the. highways and captured towns and Villages. ultimately.

by now occupying about 400 square miles. of Russian territory around 120,000. Russian civillians were displaced more. thousands although we don't know the. precise number are now under Ukrainian. occupation and the fighting has has. continued moving both deeper into Russia. and also spreading out along the border. to widen this area that's under. Ukrainian control what you're describing. in no way feels like a gesture or. something that's meant to be flee ing.

but clearly something longer term this. invasion of Russia do you have the sense. Andrew that this kind of operation at. this scale was allowed under the terms. of the West's military aid to Ukraine. we've talked a lot about this on the. show with you with our colleagues who. cover Russia that it's been understood. that Ukraine could not really use. Western military equipment as it has. done here clearly to go after after. Russia itself with very few exceptions.

well the fact is zalinsky has said he. didn't tell the US in advance of this. operation he didn't ask. permission the Biden administration's. policy is to avoid escalation Russia is. a nuclear armed country and to allow. American missiles American weapons to be. used inside of Russia was uh significant. step but once Ukraine launched this. operation this ground invasion of Russia. we heard from the Germans we heard from.

the Americans that this was in fact in. their assessment within the bounds of. using Western Weaponry to defend Ukraine. there had been an exception that weapons. could be used in the Border region for. defense of purposes and and this was. interpreted in that light interesting. well with that in mind what do we know. about Ukraine's objective here its goals. for undertaking such a risky invasion of. Russia.

the Ukrainian government didn't. initially articulate any goals but it's. clear there were several layers to this. one was strategic and Military the. ukrainians wanted to strike where Russia. was weakest and forced Russia to divert. its troops and its weapons from inside. Ukraine to defending its own territory. inside Russia MH it was a strategy of. taking the war to Russia and in this way. relieving pressure on their own soldiers. who are fighting desperately and eastern. Ukraine to hold territory so basically.

to strengthen Ukraine's own hand on the. main Battlefield which is Russian. occupied Ukraine that's right what else. you said this is multi- motivational. well there seemed to be another larger. geopolitical goal and this was a goal to. hasten the end of the war there was a. sense that if they were to strike inside. of Russia if they were to capture. territory this would provide leverage in. possible peace talks right cuz for the. first time Ukraine has something that. Russia wants not the other way around.

exactly and there was also an idea that. this could have an effect on public. opinion in Russia that by showing. Russians what it's like to be occupied. what it's like to be attacked Putin. could no longer present to his Society. the operation in Ukraine as something. distant and something that would. continue even as they live their. ordinary lives right we know that. Ukraine has pursued that approach before. bringing the pain of this conflict to.

Russia through sporadic drone attacks on. Russian communities even in. Moscow but this seems by far the most. ambitious and successful version of that. tactic a whole other order of magnitude. exactly ukrainians I talked to said that. maybe this is what would be needed to. end the war to show Russians what the. war was like inside of Ukraine. [Music].

I spoke with one woman who said that. only when the Russians hear what it's. like to hear a child crying in a bomb. shelter would they want an end to the. war. H so this was the Ukrainian sentiment. this was a bold military move that would. help them in their War but it's an open. question whether this will bring Russia. to the bargaining table or just more. pain to Ukraine in a Russian retaliation. [Music].

after the break Anton trnovski brings us. the Russian side of the. story we'll be right back. [Music]. looking to sell your car now or simply.

considering it carvana can give you a. real offer for your car in seconds just. under your license pler Vin answer a few. quick questions and receive an instant. offer that offer is good for 7 days if. you need to think about it if you accept. carvana will pay you right on the spot. so whether you're ready to sell or just. curious go to carvana.com to sell your. car the convenient way hey everyone it's. estad hearen political reporter for the. New York Times s when I became a.

journalist I made a promise to my. readers like the way the doctors take an. oath to their patients I committed to. bringing the truth to light no matter. which party business organization or. person I'm reporting on I have to be. persistent I have to do research and I. have to push back when someone tries to. hide or spin the facts and I know I'm. going to write stories that both. Democrats and Republicans don't like but. that's what the New York Times has been. doing for more than a century and that's. what we're going to keep doing we. believe the public deserves the right to.

make up their mind based on the facts so. if you want to support this kind of work. you can subscribe to the New York Times. at NY. times.com. subscribe Anon you cover Russia for the. times and you have been tracking the. kremlin's response to this large-scale. Invasion by Ukraine so how has Russia. reacted to this especially once the dust. settled and this sneak attack was more.

or less over well let's start with the. military response there it was clear. that Russia was completely unprepared. for this Ukraine was able to march miles. deep into the country facing minimal. resistance and was able to take it. appears hundreds of Russian soldiers. prisoner in the two weeks since Russia. has been able to dispatch forces there. but Russia is not mustering the forces. necessary or maybe able or willing to.

use the Firepower necessary to end this. quickly and in the meantime Ukraine is. obviously getting the opportunity to dig. in and this is increasingly looking like. a longer term occupation of Russian. territory by Ukraine wow so this is not. the kind of massive military response. that you would expect pretty much from. any country being invaded let alone a. country as obsessed with its borders as.

Russia is yeah it's pretty stunning how. two weeks in Ukraine controlling Russian. territory has already become routine how. does the Russian government explain that. reality to the people of Russia that. they are for now letting Ukraine occupy. all this Russian territory well they're. not really trying to explain it but that. does sort of bring us to the kind of. political media p R aspect of the.

Russian response which has been really. to treat this as a natural disaster more. than as part of this war so can you. explain that how are they treating it. like a natural disaster if you turned on. the Russian TV news in the days after. the invasion started two weeks ago you. were seeing pictures of pallets of water. being delivered to displaced people you. were seeing footage of Candlelight. vigils uh around the country and people.

saying things like K we are with you but. it was not cast as part of or let alone. a consequence of Putin's invasion of. Ukraine that started in February. 2022 so I think the choice has been made. so far to just play this down you know. they're calling it the situation in the. KK region on Russian TV so the strategy. is kind of self-denial if Russia doesn't. treat this like an invasion it's not an.

invasion a little bit reminds us of what. Putin has said about invading Ukraine. Special Operation not a full sale. invasion of a neighboring. country yeah and remember Putin is the. president of an autocracy in which there. is basically no free media at this point. so he does have the luxury right to take. this kind of Tack and does not have to. think very much about short term public. pressure on his actions but while Putin.

hasn't responded forcefully yet it. doesn't mean he isn't planning something. or it doesn't mean he won't still. respond think back to last summer when. the pran Mutiny march on Moscow happened. in June and two months later pran's. plane fell out of the sky in what uh we. believe was a Kremlin assassination so. um there could still be a response that. comes later but his nonresponse or slow.

response so far does remind us of how. Putin has in many ways been cautious. throughout the last two and a half years. to not have this become a wider War. understood given Russia's response so. far and understanding that that response. may be delayed how should we think about. whether Ukraine is actually achieving. its goals for this Invasion diverting. Russian troops from Ukraine who in. theory would rush back to protect. Russia's borders drawing Russia into.

peace talks with Ukraine and finally. bringing the pain of this war as deeply. as possible into Russia itself so the. jury's still out on the attempt to draw. Russian troops out of eastern Ukraine. and over to K that does not seem to have. worked so far we have reports of some. Russian troops leaving but not really. that many and we are seeing that Russia.

is still pushing ahead in the donbas. region in eastern Ukraine the fight. there for the ukrainians is really tough. right now we're not seeing the Russian. pressure L up in eastern Ukraine and on. the contrary we're actually seeing them. taking more of Ukraine that seems very. important because the entire Assumption. of this Invasion would seem to be that. Putin's response would have to be to. protect Russian territory so far that. doesn't seem to be his overall. imperative and now you're suggesting. that instead he's using it as a chance.

to push further and further into Ukraine. that would seem like a Ukrainian. miscalculation right so we don't know. what's going to happen going forward but. for now that part of the calculation. seems to not have come through but then. there's other aspects here so on. pressuring Russia to go into Bonafide. peace talks with Ukraine where Russia. would be ready to move back from its. maximalist aims there we still have to.

see I mean for the first time Ukraine is. holding Russian territory and for the. first time you can now imagine a deal in. which Ukraine pulls back troops in. exchange from Russia pulling back troops. right so Ukraine absolutely has a new. kind of Leverage here the problem is. that Putin is not someone who likes the. Optics of folding Under Pressure but. there is one test case that we're. watching close. our colleagues at the Washington Post.

have done some good reporting on this. and that is negotiations around both. sides committing to not striking each. other's energy infrastructure there was. supposed to be a round of talks about. this potential deal this month after the. K incursion Russian officials have said. we don't see a point in negotiating with. Ukraine for now so so they're not ruling. it out entirely but they're saying for.

now we won't talk so if this invasion. was supposed to represent a potential. major breakthrough in the peace talks. with Russia based on the evidence so far. that is not happening but what about. that third prong of Ukraine strategy. inflicting pain on the Russian people in. their own country that seems. self-evidently to have already happened. yes this is really a humiliation for. Putin that's clear we are seeing yet.

again that Russia's vaunted security. apparatus has failed in its basic task. of. maintaining security inside Russia's. borders but at the same time you have to. remember that Ukraine occupies a few. hundred square miles of territory right. now that's a very very small sliver of. the K region and obviously microscopic. if you think about the six plus million. square miles that Russia occupies on the.

globe so Russians have become more. worried have become more anxious but. it's not a drastic dramatic shift well. Anton that makes me wonder if there's a. universe where Ukraine pushes day after. day Bridge after Bridge mile after Mile. and starts to take so much Russian. territory that this message gets. delivered to all of the people of Russia.

very very loudly and in a way that. becomes pretty hard to. ignore I mean so one problem here is. that there's another potential response. you could see from a public in this kind. of situation which is the rally around. the flag effect right that as Ukraine. pushes forward more and more Russians. might actually become further energized. to support Putin's War we haven't seen a.

ton of that yet but that's certainly one. other thing to watch and the other. question mark is at what point do. Ukraine's Western allies step in here. and try to get the ukrainians to stop or. pull back because they are worried about. escalation risk I think that that. concern still clearly does exist in. Western capitals um the Biden. Administration obviously so far still. hasn't allowed Ukraine to use longrange. missiles to strike Russian territory.

beyond the immediate border areas so. we'll have to see about that but. certainly you now hear president. zalinski saying that Putin's lack of. response over the last two weeks shows. that in zelinsky's words this whole idea. of Russia having red lines that can't be. crossed is naive so it feels like at the. moment two weeks into this Invasion. there are two let's call them fictions. for lack of a better word guiding how.

everyone is seeing and responding to. this military action by Ukraine the. first is that Putin's acting as if this. Invasion never really happened at all. and how long can he really keep that up. and for Ukraine the alleged fiction here. is that there really is a red line that. they can't cross in bringing this war. back to Russia and the Russian people. without triggering a wider conflict so. far Ukraine seems to be saying that that.

red line doesn't exist and we just. proved it so how should we think about. those two. fictions. together well for one thing they show. how unpredictable this war is just like. who could have thought that we would be. sitting here in August 20124 talking. about a Ukrainian Invasion onto Russian. territory and talking about Putin. doesn't seem to be all that concerned.

about. it so you're seeing this competition. between these two big almost guiding. principles for these two men fighting. this war Putin's constant signaling that. he's ready to Bear more costs to get. what he. wants and zinski is showing us that he's. willing to take risks and do the. unexpected and take the fight to Russia. and test what some thought would be.

Russia's red. line and that just reminds us of how. intractable this war is how 2 and 1/2. years in people still don't understand. how it ends or when it ends perhaps The. Invasion brings us closer to that or. perhaps it extends it even more. [Music]. well Anton thank you very much thank you.

[Music]. Michael we'll be right. [Music]. back looking to sell your car now or. simply considering it carvana can give. you a real offer for your car in seconds. just enter your license pler Vin answer. a few quick questions and receive an. instant offer offer that offer is good. for 7 days if you need to think about it.

if you accept carvana will pay you right. on the spot so whether you're ready to. sell or just curious go to carvana.com. to sell your car the convenient way I'm. Carol Rosenberg from The New York Times. right now I'm sitting alone in The Press. Room at the US Navy basic Guantanamo Bay. I've been coming here since 4 months. after the 911 attacks I've probably. spent around 2,000 nights at this navy. base it's hard to get here it's hard to. get news from the prison often you know.

I'm the only reporter here the New York. Times takes you to difficult and. controversial places and that takes. resources you can power that kind of. Journalism by subscribing to the New. York. Times here's what else you need to. another day the times reports that. President Biden has approved a highly. classified plan to for the first time. reorient America's strategy for. deterring nuclear weapons to focus on.

China the plan is an acknowledgement of. China's rapid expansion of its nuclear. Arsenal which will rival that of the. United States and Russia over the next. decade. [Music]. and. yeah ladies and gentlemen we are here. tonight to officially nominate K Harris. for president.

shot D turn out the what on the second. night of the Democratic National. Convention vice president kamla Harris. was formerly nominated by her party's. delegates during a jubilent roll call. featuring The Rapper Lil. John a few hours later something. wonderfully magical is in the air isn't. it yeah. you know we're feeling it here in this.

Arena but it's spreading all across this. country we love a familiar feeling. that's been buried too deep for far too. long you know what I'm talking. about it's the contagious power of. Hope former First Lady Michelle Obama. and former president Barack Obama. forcefully endorsed Harris in backto.

back speeches America's ready for a. better story we are ready for a. president kamla. [Applause]. Harris if you want more news and I. suspect you do check out our other Daily. News show it's called the headlines it. brings you the day's top stories along. with analysis from times reporters all. in about 10 minutes or less and you can.

subscribe to it wherever you get your. podcasts today's episode was produced by. Nina Feldon Luke Vander plug and muj Zi. it was edited by MJ Davis Lynn contains. original music by R nisto and Dan Powell. and was engineered by Chris Wood our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of wonderly. [Music].

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Michael. borro see you. [Music]. tomorrow no matter what type of Shopper. you are carvana is the convenient way to. buy a car online whether you know the. exact makeing model you want or like to. consider all options carvana offers. thousands of affordable cars to choose.

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