Inside the Tech Company Powering Trump’s Most Controversial Policies

From the New York Times, I'm [music]. Natalie Kitroof. This is the daily. >> President Trump pushing ahead with. sweeping plans to trim the size of the. federal government. >> President Trump is ramping up. deportations in Democrat-led cities. The. US has attacked three nuclear sites in. Iran. >> At the heart of many of President. Trump's most controversial policies, there's been one company, Palunteer. The. core mission of our company always was. to make the West, especially America, the strongest in the world, the. strongest ever been.

>> According to Palanteer CEO, the company. exists to defend Western ideals. But to. its critics, >> some worry that Palanteer could give the. government sweeping almost futuristic. surveillance capabilities. >> Palanteer is enabling the. administration's illiberal tactics. [music]. Today, Times contributor Michael. Steinberger on how Palunteer CEO who's. described himself as a lifelong Democrat. became a champion of President Trump, how his political transformation shaped.

one of the most secretive companies in. the world, and the impact that. transformation could have on American. democracy. Palanteer [music]. is here to disrupt and make the. institutions we partner with the very. best in the world and when [music] it's. necessary to scare our enemies and on. occasion kill them. >> It's Tuesday, December 16th. Michael, welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me.

>> You just published this book. It's. called The Philosopher in the Valley. about Palunteer and its CEO, Alex Karp. And in the process of working on that. book, you spent a lot of time with KARP. and inside the company, this company. that is playing a very unique role in. the second Trump administration. So I. can't think of anyone better to ask. What exactly does Palanteer do? >> Well, first I should say that it's a. quite secretive company. A lot of its. work is done with intelligence services,

the military. So there's a lot of stuff. they do that they can't talk about and. we can't know about. The work is also. technologically quite complex. Essentially, Palanteer makes software. that enables organizations to make. faster, better use of their data. Typically, we're talking about large. organizations that collect sizable. quantities of data. Palanteer software. pulls in all the data, merges it, and. then finds patterns, trends, connections. in that data, stuff that might elude the.

human eye. One very powerful example of. Palanteer's work was in the war in. Ukraine. Palanteer's software is the. backbone for the Pentagon's AIdriven. targeting program and this was used. extensively in the first months of the. war to help the Ukrainians withstand the. Russian assault. So a lot of satellite. data was being pulled in by the US. military along with intercepted Russian. communications. And the US military was. able to say to the Ukrainians, okay,

here's where there's a troop formation. There's a general here. If you fire a. missile at these coordinates, you might. be very happy with the results. And. Palanteer's technology was instrumental. to this and played a very significant. role in enabling the Ukrainians to. withstand the initial Russian assault. So that example of the war in Ukraine. obviously shows the value of this. software, but this is a company that. also prompts a lot of concern, right? Can you just explain that part? >> Yeah, it not only prompts a lot of.

concern, many people regard Palunteer as. possibly the most dangerous company in. the world. >> Part of this is some of the clients it. has. Uh it's used by the CIA. In fact, the CIA was an early investor in. Palanteer. It's also used by the Mossad. and other clandestine services. It's. used extensively by law enforcement. Uh, a lot of personal information is flowing. through Palanteer's pipelines and the. company has also been at the center of. the issues that have dominated the. headlines this year and have generated a. lot of controversy. ICE and.

deportations, Doge, Gaza, Iran, and AI. >> Can you just go a little deeper on one. of those examples? Like how has it been. at the center of things? Well, for. instance, Palanteer's technology is. integral to the immigration crackdown. taking place right now. ICE is making. extensive use of Palanteer's technology. to identify and facilitate deportations. And what has people particularly. concerned is that ICE appears to be. building a massive surveillance.

apparatus and Palanteer appears to be at. the center of that. Now, Palanteer sees. itself as a force for good in the world. But even people at the company. acknowledge that it technology could be. used to do harm and it's been clear for. some time that its technology in the. hands of an authoritarian regime would. be a very powerful tool. And who gets to. use Palanteer software and for what. purpose is decided by one person, the. company's CEO, Alex Karp. >> Tell me about Alex Karp. Who is he? Alex.

Karp is maybe the most unique figure on. the global business scene. Uh he and I. first started talking in 2019. We had a. couple conversations that year, including one at a home that he owns in. Vermont. >> So, you just found this place. >> Mhm. It's a little bit of a dump, but I. like it. >> It's nice. >> To say the home was off the grid would. be an understatement. >> I'm I'm happy with it. >> I like it. And I mean, you've got. privacy here. >> Yep. >> Yeah. No, my neighbors I don't know if. you saw the neighbors. They're like a.

farmer to the left here. >> Yeah. >> We had a conversation over lunch, but. it's difficult for Karp to sit still. And as soon as we were finished, >> you know, why don't we go for a walk and. I'll tell you about. >> took a long hike. We were trailed by two. of his bodyguards. >> Got the bodyguards with us again. >> And two more bodyguards remained in the. parking lot. >> If my phone is around, someone's. listening. >> Someone is listening. >> Definitively. >> So a foreign intelligence agency. >> Absolutely. It would be irresponsible. for them not to listen to my phone call. >> So the conversation very security. conscious and for a good reason. He's.

running a company that works with the. CIA and other clandestine services that. is a major defense contractor. >> Do you worry about your personal safety? >> Absolutely you do. >> It'd be insane not to. >> Yeah. >> I mean, when they got me the bodyguards, I thought I was insane, but now I think. it's pre because historically we've. gotten lots of threats from like. farright neo-Nazis. >> Now, I mean, it's like people who hate. us. >> come in many different stripes. >> Yeah. and he's had a very unusual path. to this role. >> And what is that path?

>> He's a Philly kid. He grew up in. Philadelphia, grew up in a very. left-wing household. His father was. Jewish pediatrician. His mother is black. and an artist. He's biracial, Jewish, and also severely dyslexic. >> It's like I have this weirdly structured. brain. The motor is just structured. differently. >> Yeah. Yeah. You think differently. And. Karp and his brother, who's two years. younger, spent a lot of time going to. anti-war protest, anti-uclear protest. And he ends up going to college locally. to Hfordford College, a small liberal.

arts school with a strong tradition of. disscent. Perfect place for someone who. grew up in the political ailia that Karp. did. I should acknowledge at this point. that he and I were classmates at Hford. >> Amazing. I should acknowledge at this. point that I grew up on Hford College's. campus because my parents taught there. Hford's a small place, but it is. converging in this moment here, isn't. it? >> Indeed. >> So, in any event, he Yeah. He insists. that he didn't work that hard at. Havford. I think his path in life would. suggest otherwise. I think the library.

saw a lot more of him than it did of me, which may go some way to explaining why. he became a billionaire and I did not. But as a young man, he identified very. strongly with his black heritage. At. Hford, he was very involved with black. student affairs. In our senior year in. college, he organ helped organize an. anti-racism conference at Yale. University. After Havford, he goes to. Stanford Law School, which he considers. one of the biggest mistakes of his life. >> I just hated it. >> He's [snorts] miserable there. He finds. the intellectual climate very.

dissatisfying. The only thing that makes. law school tolerable for Karp is the. friendship he strikes up with another. first year law student at Stanford. >> I met Peter there. Peter Teal. >> Peter Teal, the now very prominent. libertarian conservative, now a big. Republican donor. >> Exactly. They bonded over their shared. dislike of law school, and they also. bonded over their love of political. argument. As Teal said to me, he was. more the capitalist, and Karp was the. socialist. We've been having these feral. discourses now for 25 26 years. Karp.

says that they argued like feral. animals. Wow. >> These dorm room bull sessions were. apparently epic. >> Got it. They had their own little debate. club. >> That's right. So, you know, Carpental. graduated from Stanford Law in 1992. Karp had no intention of pursuing a. career in law. Instead, he went to. Germany to pursue a doctorate in. philosophy. >> But I became myself in my adolescence in. Germany. >> Yeah. >> You say f which means like I was able to. expand into my true self. >> Yeah. >> Or the self I was most comfortable with.

>> Gotcha. Yeah, he went to Germany because. he was, you know, the writers that he. found most impactful were German, but he. was also drawn there because he was. Jewish. His father's family had come. from Germany and he wanted to gain a. deeper understanding of the Holocaust. and why Germany, which had been the. pinnacle of European civilization, descended into such barbarism and turned. on its Jewish population so savagely. And he ends up writing his dissertation. on the rhetoric of fascism. >> Meanwhile, Peter Teal is back in the.

United States. He works for a time for a. New York law firm, then ends up working. at an investment bank. Unsatisfied with. that, he heads back out to Silicon. Valley where the dot boom is underway. and co-founds an online payments. company, PayPal, in 1998. 3 years later, the world changes. >> Just a few moments ago, allegedly, a. plane has crashed into the World Trade. Center. >> when 911 happens. >> Oh, there's another one. Another plane. just hit, right? Oh my god, another. plane. >> The unthinkable happened today. The.

World Trade Center. Both towers gone. >> The American people want the answers. to so many questions around 9/11. >> Teal wonders if the attack could have. been prevented had government agencies. been able to more readily share. information with one another. The FBI. had information. [music]. The CIA had information. If that. information had been pulled, it's. possible the attack could have been. prevented. The 9/11 Commission when it.

issued its final report in 2004 [music]. said that there had been a failure to. connect the dots in part because. information was siloed. And this is the. idea that gives rise to Palanteer. [music] Tio believed he could create a. company that would help intelligence. analysts connect the dots, find the. needles in the haststack, [music] and. prevent future attacks. And it's around this time that Karp. resurfaces in the Bay Area. Um, he's.

back from Germany and he and Teal. reunite. Teal asks Karp to help him. raise some money for Palanteer. This. company he's trying to get off the. ground. Teal interviews a couple of. people for the CEO position, but then he. and the other people involved in. founding Palunteer realized Karp is. probably the right guy for the job. Can. you say why? Because Karp actually seems. to me an unlikely pick to be CEO. He. isn't really in the Silicon Valley tech. scene at this point, right? >> No, he's not. I mean, in some ways, he's.

a very unlikely choice. And he admitted. as much to me. >> I had no skills. [laughter]. >> That's the truth. I wasn't trained in. business. I didn't know anything about. startup culture. I didn't know anything. about building a business. I didn't know. anything about financing a business. >> He's got no background in business, no. training in computer science. And of. course, he's coming from a left-wing. household and now he's going to be. working for a company that's at the. nexus of technology in the national. security state. He is, yeah, on paper a. very unlikely fit. And yet, he is very.

passionate. I mean, the moment he gets. involved, he is very passionate about. what Palanteer is doing. >> Yeah. I just thought this sounds like. the coolest idea ever. >> You thought? Yeah. So, >> so if I pass this up, I'll I'll regret. it. >> What exactly about what Palanteer is up. to at this point is Karp passionate. about? Well, Palanteer is this rare. burden that's a very ideological. company. It doesn't exist just to help. the US government fight the war on. terrorism, but it exists more broadly to. help defend the West. That is their. view. And he's passionate about this,

defending the West, but also defending. what he sees as core Western values. Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, what we know as. civil liberties. He believed that. Palanteer could develop technology that. would enable the government to find the. bad guys without becoming a massive drag. net pulling in lots of innocent. Americans. And he's drawn to Paliner's. mission for very personal reasons, reasons that are tied to his own. identity. >> If you're if you're me and you wake up.

every morning, like I still do, thinking. I am totally screwed. That's how I wake. up every morning. That's how I've been. waking up every morning my whole life. >> You wake up every morning think I'm. totally screwed. Yeah, because. >> he understands from a young age. He says. that he had in his view some strikes. against him. >> and I am this racially amorphous Jewish. kid who's also dyslexic. I am [ __ ]. >> That's how I see myself. That's how I. saw myself. >> And it's a sense of vulnerability he. carries into adulthood and brings with.

him to Palanteer. >> There's no aspect of my life that was. not motivated by absolute terror. that propelled almost every decision. It. propels a lot of decisions to this. company and I don't have less of it than. I did when I was a little kid. [snorts]. >> And in the aftermath of 911, there was. obviously a lot of concern that there. were going to be many more terrorist. attacks. And Karp's view is that when. people feel threatened, whether because. of crime or because of terrorism, they.

inevitably turn to the far right. >> And why do I care about this endency of. the far right? Because who's the first. person that's going to get hung. >> when they come to power? >> By the way, the far far far left isn't. much better either. You make a list and. I will show you who they get first. It's. me. >> And he wants to prevent that because. liberal democracy, robust protection of. minority rights, these are things that. matter greatly to him personally. And so. he sees Palanteer as a way of possibly.

preventing that political outcome. It's. interesting. He views preventing. terrorist attacks as key to preventing. the American public from turning to the. far right out of fear. >> Exactly. He thought that if there were. more terrorist attacks and many more. mass casualty events because of. terrorism, voters were inevitably going. to turn to the far right because they. think that the far right will protect. them and they will become much less. inclined to uh protect minorities and so.

forth because they they're scared and. they want protection and they think the. far right will protect them. They will. turn to authoritarianism. He wants to. prevent that outcome and he sees. Palanteer as a means possibly of helping. prevent that. >> Okay. And how does this ideological. bent, this commitment to defending the. West actually manifest in Palanteer's. work? >> Well, it begins with the CIA, which. becomes a Palanteer client. They then. develop a business with the US military. This is very much in keeping with their.

mission. They want to be the software. supplier of choice to the national. security state. But then in the 2010s. they start developing business on the. civilian side of the federal government. with a number of government agencies. including ICE. >> and this contract becomes a flash point. for Palunteer the most controversial. part of Palanteer's work for the. government. >> and what is Palanteer doing for ICE at. least at the beginning. >> well it's a relationship that began. actually under the Obama administration.

a lot of Palunteer's work begins with. clients in moments of crisis. and ICE had a crisis on its hands. >> And now, news about the shooting of two. Americans south of the US border in. Mexico. One Immigration and Customs. Enforcement agent killed, another. wounded. >> An [music] ICE special agent had been. assassinated by a Mexican drug cartel. >> Driver, special agent Haime Zapata was. shot several times in the chest and. killed. >> And ICE needed help finding the. assassins. There's an intense manhunt.

underway in Mexico right now for the. killers of an American immigration. officer. Both US and Mexican. investigators involved [music]. >> turned to Palanteer and within a matter. of hours, Palanteer engineers had the. [music] software up and running for ICE. and were pulling in a wide variety of. data including phone records, bank. records, [music] any footage that might. have been pulled from surveillance. cameras. And within two weeks. >> that after Haime Zapata was laid to rest. yesterday, a Mexican authorities took.

one [music] of the suspects into. custody. Today. >> they had apprehended the asalent and. also confiscated. millions of dollars worth of drugs. [music]. After that, ICE awards Palanteer a. contract in 2014. working with a branch of ICE called. Homeland Security Investigations, which. deals with things like human trafficking. and drug trafficking. It's a. relationship that doesn't draw much. attention until Donald Trump is elected.

president the first time in 2016. He had. run on a promise to crack down on. immigration and ICE is instrumental to. enforcing that crackdown and Palunteer. becomes the object of protests because. of its relationship with ICE. >> How so? >> PALUNTEER. >> PALUNTEER. >> There are protests outside its. headquarters in Palo Alto. >> AND IMMIGRANTS ARE UNDER ATTACK. WHERE. DO WE GO? and outside other Palunteer offices.

>> Protesters held signs like Palunteer, "Wake up, you're complicit.". >> There are boycots on campuses, people. saying that they don't want Palunteers. recruiters to appear on their campuses. Palanteer is kicked out of several major. tech conferences because people don't. want it there. And there's also a fair. amount of internal disscent. There are. hundreds of employees at Palanteer who. make known their objection to working. with ICE and to having any role in. Trump's immigration crackdown. I'm. interested. How does Karp, this one-time.

activist himself, this son of leftists, how does he respond to the outcry on the. left over this contract? >> Well, he makes clear back in Trump's. first presidency that he is not a fan of. Donald Trump. >> I understand why the protesters protest. us. >> I grew up protesting people, >> but he also thinks that the protesters. and Democrats more broadly are very. misguided on the issue of immigration. And you know, I am a progressive and. many progressives believe that we should. have strong border enforcement.

>> So that's going to be part of the. progressive tent if we progressives want. to win. Now, >> voters are not happy about scenes of. chaos at the border. They don't like. illegal immigration because they think. that it would depress the wages of. working-class Americans. And Karp's view. is that if Democrats and progressives. don't take those concerns seriously, they're going to turn to people who do. That's why Donald Trump was elected in. 2016 in Karp's view. And this is a very. consistent position all along for Karp. It's the same view that informed his. view of terrorism. If people on the left.

don't take concerns about public safety. seriously, voters are going to turn to. people on the right who do. And people. on the left are not going to like the. results. >> Interesting. He justifies the work. Palanteer is doing with ICE as very much. fitting into this idea of securing the. border, something he views as a. progressive stance. He does. He says at. this time that he is the progressive. warrior. He's the true progressive. He. is doing more to defend the values that. liberals claim to cherish than they are.

He believes that Palanteer and whether. it's helping enforce immigration laws or. fighting terrorism is defending liberal. progressive values. But he's also stung by the criticism. that he and Palanteer are getting from. the left, by the vitrial directed at. them. And over time, he grows increasingly. disenchanted [music] with the Democrats. and the left. Disenchantment that grows. during the Biden presidency. And that. culminates [music].

with a massive event that ends up. cementing his break with the Democrats, the October [music] 7th terrorist attack. in Israel. We'll be right back. Okay, Michael. So, by the time of the. October 7th attack on Israel in 2023,

you'd been interviewing Alex Karp for. several years. So, how'd you see him. change after that moment? >> Well, Karp is shaken by the events of. October 7th, as many people were. He's. very supportive of Israel. He sees. Israel security in very personal terms. terms. At one point he had said to me. that if things go sideways, Israel is a. place I can go. So it's very much bound. up in this sense of vulnerability that. he feels as someone who is Jewish and. October 7th just kind of crystallizes.

all these fear and sense of. vulnerability. He says to me at one. point, this is a survival situation and. he means that as much for himself as it. is for other people. >> And how does his really strong reaction. to this moment to these attacks shape. Palanteer's work? There is no such thing anymore of being. on all sides. Palanteer only [music]. supplies its products to Western allies. I am proud that we are supporting Israel. in every way we can. Palanteer already. has an office in Tel Aviv. Software has.

been used [music] by the Mossad for a. number of years. But not long after. October 7th, it sends multiple engineers. there because the Israeli Defense Forces. want to use the software. There's. interest from Shinbet, which is the. domestic intelligence services. And. Karp's view is we're gonna give them. anything and everything they need. Paler takes out a full page ad in the. New York Times saying that Palunteer. stands with Israel and this messaging is. not just directed at the general public.

It's also directed at Palanteer. employees because he says to me. privately that he wants it understood. that whereas he was very willing to. tolerate the dissent back during the. first Trump presidency over Palanter's. work with ICE, he's really not in the. mood to tolerate any internal disscent. over the work Palanteer is doing to. support Israel after October 7th. >> Have you lost employees because of this? >> We've lost employees. I'm sure we'll. lose employees. I'm [music] sure we'll. lose. You know, it's like if you have a.

position that does not cost you ever to. lose an employee, it's not a position. >> He says very clearly, if you can't abide. by what we're doing, then maybe. Palunteer isn't the place for you. >> And all this is in a context in which. we're [music] seeing growing protests on. college campuses and elsewhere in the US. over Israel's response to these attacks. the widescale bombing of Gaza. This is.

very much top of mind. >> Exactly. >> And he is furious about the protests on. campus. And I'm telling young people, you are breathing the vapors of a. dangerous new fake and uh. self-destructive religion when you are. sitting at your elite school pretending. because you watched Tik Tok twice. [music] and got an A+ on some crazy. paper that you actually understand the. world. >> He is very outspoken in following. October 7th. very outspoken about the.

protests on campuses, using every. opportunity he [music] can get to lash. out at the protesters to say that they. are delusional, that they are misguided. And they don't see the contradiction in. their behavior of writing papers [music]. about micro discrimination and then. excluding the longest existing minority. overtly. They literally don't see the. contradiction. >> He thinks the protests [music] are. riddled with anti-semitism and are very. dangerous. And he sees this as. reflective of a broader rot in his mind.

on the left. He remains supportive of President. Biden. He has written checks to the. Biden campaign and says he's going to. continue to do so because Biden has been. very supportive of the Israeli. government. But he's less happy with the. Democratic party in general. He believes. that the far left is the tail wagging. the dog and that the far left of the.

Democratic party is anti-Israel and is. now becoming increasingly anti-Semitic. >> So this kid who grew up a lefty. progressive no longer really sees. himself in the progressive wing of the. Democratic party. >> That's right. >> Not all criticism of Israel is. anti-semitism, but a larger portion of. it is than we realized. and we have to. call it out. >> And he goes to an event in California, the Reagan National Defense Forum in.

December 2023. >> And I'm one of the largest donors to the. Democratic party. And quite frankly, I'm. calling it out and I'm giving to. Republicans. If you keep up with this. behavior, I'm going to change. A lot of. people like me are going to change. We. have to really call this out. It is. completely beyond the bounds. and he. says that he wants the Democratic party. to speak in unambiguous terms to. unambiguously denounce the protesters. for being anti-Semitic and he thinks. that needs to be shut down. And if it's. not shut down, he's saying that he's. prepared to walk away from the.

Democratic party. >> And does he make good on that threat? >> Yes, he starts donating much more. aggressively to Republicans after. October 7th. And in the private. conversations that he and I had, he. makes clear that he is looking much more. favorably on Republicans. and he's even. warming to the idea of a second Trump. presidency. Not long after October 7th, we had a conversation and he had asked. me not to record the conversation, but. said I could take notes. And Trump's. name comes up and he says, and this was.

unprovoked. I didn't even say anything. And he says, "I don't think Trump is a. fascist. I don't think Trump is an. anti-semite. I don't think Trump is a. bigot." It really felt like he was. trying to convince himself of something. And you know, at that point it became. clear to me that he believed that Trump. was likely to win the 2024 election and. that he was in a sense in a way talking. himself into getting behind that. >> It's kind of wild to conceive of because. you know you told us that in the first. Trump term Karp was very open about. being against the administration,

against Trump himself. Do you think he. was trying to talk himself into. supporting Trump in part because he saw. there could be just a huge business. opportunity there? Well, I think he. certainly recognized that he was going. to have to say nice things about Trump. this time around. I mean, the first rule. of doing business in Donald Trump's. Washington is don't piss off Donald. Trump. The second rule is do everything. you can to curry favor with Donald. Trump. And if you're a major government. contractor, as Palanteer is, you have a.

particularly acute need to curry favor. with Donald Trump. Sakarp recognizes. that a second Trump presidency is. potentially a huge opportunity for. Palanteer and he writes a million-doll. check to the Trump Vance inauguration. committee and Palanteer lands a number. of deals during the first months of. Trump's second presidency. Its software. is used extensively by Doge. It gets a10. billion dollar contract with the army. and it also gets another contract with.

ICE this one for $30 million to help. with deportations. And amid all this. I'll tell you [music] something I think. Trump does very very well. He says I'm. not going to accept a paradigm that. essentially [music] leads to a stupid. conclusion. >> Karp starts publicly singing Trump's. praises. >> Honestly, I think he's quite brilliant. at this. So. >> saying lots [music] of nice things about. Donald Trump in public. I'm very. supportive of the president's border and. national security thing is really the. only two things that I actually focus on.

and I guess in that sense I support the. president a lot and. >> he says that on the issues that are of. paramount [music] concern to him now the. border and national security he thinks. that Trump is doing a great job. >> like getting the peace deal closing the. border degrading Iran are world historic. accomplishments and I and I don't see. why [music] you wouldn't acknowledge. that I. >> and when confronted during interviews if. this represents a big shift in his own. position. He insists no. I didn't shift. my politics. [music] The political.

parties have shifted their politics. The. idea that what's being called. progressive is in any way progressive. [music] is a complete farce. He. continues to insist that he's a true. progressive and he thinks that the left. has stopped being progressive. >> I grew up in a [music] highly. intellectual, mostly Jewish, incredibly. left-wing environment. And every. Saturday and every Friday, I heard a. lecture about how the conservatives. [music] are going to destroy this. country with illegal immigration because. it's going to undermine the fabric. [music] of the American worker. That's.

what it be means to be a progressive. Being a progressive doesn't mean just oh. I oh it feels so good to be involved. [music]. So I want to ask given the trajectory. that you've sketched out for us of this. incredibly powerful company Palunteer. being driven at least in part by the. evolution of its CEO Karp. We've been. talking about the work that Palanteer. does as being influenced by Karp's. personal politics, but I have to ask, do.

you see his journey from anti-Trump to. now allin on the administration as. purely ideological. or is it about money? Because the shift. has obviously been incredibly profitable. for the company. >> That's a combination of the two and what. proportion of each I can't really say. I. will say this, one of the things that. makes Karp such an interesting figure is. opportunism isn't good enough for him. He has to find an ideological reason,

something personal/ ideological to. really get on board with something. It. can't just be opportunism. You see, with, you know, a number of major tech. executives have gotten on board with. Trump the second time around. And with. some of them, the cravenness drips off. them like sweat. Karp is a little. different. He has found reasons to get. on board with Trump. Reasons in his own. mind, reasons that go beyond necessity. and opportunism. He thinks Trump is the. right guy. >> On the issues he says he cares about, immigration for example, does he engage.

at all on the questions that people are. raising about ICE, using the data that. it has on the people in this country to, you know, snatch people off the streets, break up families, that kind of thing. He and I have had a number of. conversations and he's kind of. dismissive of those concerns. He doesn't. really want to talk about them and he he. deflects them by saying that I and other. people just have Trump derangement. syndrome. >> Meaning what? >> Meaning that the people who raising. these issues, raising these concerns, are just so hostile to Trump, so blinded.

with rage at Trump that they can't think. rationally about these issues. But I. also know that Karp's views on. immigration have changed. And this goes. back to October 7th. Before October 7th, he saw the immigration issue, he saw the. chaos at the border as bad for the. Democrats. After October 7th, he also. sees the immigration issue and the. border as bad for American Jews. >> Why? >> Because he thinks it's poking the bear. that an uncontrolled border, lots of.

illegal immigration is radicalizing. Americans against diversity, which he. sees as really bad for the Jews. Because. if the voters want the border controlled. and a democratically elected government. doesn't deliver on what they want, they. may turn to more radical solutions, the. backlash next time may be even more. severe and people might turn to a. genuine autocrat, which would be in. Karp's view really bad for the Jews. It's worth noting that there are people.

who believe that Donald Trump, while. democratically elected, is leaning. toward autocratic tactics himself. And. it sounds like Karp doesn't believe. that. He believes there are many worse. options out there. >> He pushes back furiously against any. suggestion that Trump is an autocrat or. a fascist. in a recent interview with. Andrew Ross Sorcin of the Times, for. instance. >> Okay, so I want to ask you this. Um, and.

it's a Trump question. There's a view, and I'm curious where you land. Do you. think that President Trump is a fascist? >> Of course not. I think that's stupid, honestly. And you know what? Again, you. you can go all day on this stuff. It's. it's honestly idiotic. >> He said that any suggestion that Trump. is a fascist is just stupid. >> I grew up half my life in Germany. I. spent time with actual fascists. I went. and talked to lots of former Nazis. We. have a democratic society and you know.

he won in a landslide. I don't. >> But did you ask him at all about the. rise of this anti-semitic wing of the. far right? I'm thinking specifically in. this case of Nick Fuentes, the white. nationalist who is apparently quite. popular with young conservative men in. particular. Yes, we've discussed it and. he has admitted to being concerned about. it and I think this goes some way to. explaining why he is so ardently behind. Donald Trump because again he fears that.

if Trump doesn't deliver on his campaign. promises particularly on immigration. that what's going to come after this. could be even worse that a demagogue in. the mold of a fentes or someone like. that could come to power which Karp. thinks would be very bad for the country. and I think he sees the work that. Palanteer is doing with the Trump. administration as preventive in nature. in some sense. >> Just to step back, Michael, you've. described this evolution of Karp, a guy.

who grew up as a progressive and is now. out defending Trump on some of his most. aggressive policies. I'm wondering how we should think about. the fact that Karp is running a company. that essentially enables Trump's work. Do you think that KARP can accurately. assess when the Trump administration's. policies potentially tip over into. violating people's civil liberties or. potentially become more authoritarian in.

nature? Like, do you think Karp would be. willing to do basically anything the. Trump administration wants his company. to do or not? I don't know the answer to that, which. is kind of unsettling. I've been talking. to him for six years. He expresses very. strongly held views on a range of. issues, but he has not said to me in. private, nor has he said publicly what. his red lines are, what things the Trump.

administration might do that would cause. him to reconsider Palanter's work with. the administration. I understand why he. doesn't want to say that because. Palanteer is a major government. contractor and it's not in Karp's. interest to tell the world what things. for instance ICE might do that would. cause Palanteer to reconsider its work. with ICE. But what this really comes. down to in a lot of ways is do you trust. Alex Karp's judgment about the moment. we're in? This is someone who is a.

scholar of fascism. He knows what it. looks and sounds like and he's basically. asking us to believe that what we're. seeing here is not what many people. fear. That this is not incipient. authoritarianism. That the Trump. presidency is nothing out of the. ordinary. And the question is, do you. take his word for it? [music]. And so this really does come down in a. certain sense to how much you trust Alex.

Karp, how [music] much you trust his. assessment of Donald Trump and of the. policies the Trump administration is. pursuing. Karp has said very candidly. that Palanter's technology can be used. for good [music] or bad. If abuse has. happened, do you trust Alex Karp to pull. the plug on the work that Palanteer is. doing with government [music] agencies? And do you trust him to correctly assess. when that's happening? And do you trust. him [music] ultimately to be willing to. sacrifice Palunteer's business interest.

in defense of those values? >> Well, Michael, thanks [music] so much. for coming on the show. >> Thank you for having me. >> [music]. [music]. >> We'll be right back.

Here's what [music] else you need to. know today. Nick Reiner, the son of the. Hollywood director Rob Reiner and. Michelle [music] Singer Reiner, has been. arrested on suspicion of murdering his. parents, the police said on Monday. [music]. The couple were found dead in their Los. Angeles home on Sunday afternoon. Two. people briefed on the case said they'd. been [music] stabbed to death. Rob. Reiner directed a series of iconic and. beloved films, including This is Spinal.

Tap, The Princess Bride, [music] and. When Harry Met Sally. Michelle Singer. Riner was a photographer and later a. producer. Their 32-year-old son, Nick, had spoken. out over the years about his [music]. struggles with drug abuse and bouts of. homelessness. The police said he's being. held without bail. Today's episode was produced by Caitlyn. [music] O'Keefe, Ricky Nevetski, and. Stella Tan. It was edited by Lisa Chow,

fact checked by Susan Lee, contains. music [music] by Marian Lozano, Pat. McCusker, Dan Powell, and Rowan Nemisto, and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Lissa Anderson. [music]. That's it for the Daily. I'm Natalie. Kitro. [music]. See you tomorrow.