How Trump Is Scaring Big Law Firms Into Submission

from The New York Times I'm Michael. babbaro this is the. [Music]. daily after engaging in a campaign of. Retribution against his enemies within. the federal government president Trump. is now turning to those outside of it. today my colleague Mike Schmidt on what. that retribution has looked like for a.

single law firm and the impact that it's. had on the entire legal. [Music]. profession it's Tuesday March. [Music]. 18th Mike welcome back to the studio. thank you for being here it's good to be. back I want to give a little bit of. context for this.

conversation before Trump was elected. the daily ran a series of episodes about. what a second Trump term might look like. on a range of France and you guided us. through how Trump might use the powers. of the federal government to turn his. threats of Retribution into action and. your big finding was that we didn't have. to look far to try to understand what. retribution might look like in practice. because Trump had already done it in his. first term more than we had actually. realized and you documented that and you.

said that it would only escalate if he. were given a second term and I think. it's fair to say so far that you were. right Michael telling me I'm right you. were right frame. it yeah look I was concentrated on how. he was going to use the criminal powers. of the justice department to go after. his enemies but he has actually been. more creative and audacious.

and faster frankly than I ever thought. he'd be at retribution correct and what. in your mind is the best example of this. unexpected inventive retribution the way. that he has targeted in the past week or. so a law firm called Perkins Koy with. the stroke of his pen he was able to. essentially the firm's ability. to represent its clients.

and create an existential threat for it. that could put it out of business H but. in doing that Trump has done something. even bigger and. greater he has fundamentally. undermined the American legal system a. very bold statement so let's tell the. story of what happened to this Law Firm. from the beginning tell us about Perkins. kui and how it arrives at this.

existential crisis at the hands of the. president in 2016 Hillary Clinton's. campaign hired Perkins kuie to be its. Chief outside law firm in many ways this. made sense because Perkins kuie had one. of the biggest most robust practices. that focused on representing Democrats. right and we should say in Washington. that's kind of how things work there are. law firms known for doing work for. Republicans there are law firms known. for doing work for Democrats correct so.

what happens is during the campaign the. law firm took over paying for the work. of a former British spy who was. compiling a dossier on Trump's potential. ties to Russia and by dossier of course. you mean the dossier on Donald Trump. that becomes a big factor in how we all. think in that moment about Trump and. Russia correct the salacious compilation.

of unverified intelligence reports that. laid out potential ties between Trump. his associates and Russia mhm and the. chief Boogeyman in his eyes was a lawyer. for Perkins koie who was the top lawyer. on the Clinton campaign a guy named Mark. Elias who had not only established. himself as the top lawyer for Democrats. but had played a role in helping to fund.

the dossier and represent the campaign H. controversial move by BuzzFeed last. night publishing a dossier source to a. person who claims to be a former member. of British. intelligence so As Trump is coming into. office BuzzFeed of course published the. entire contents of that dossier that had. the dossier is everywhere this is for. that Infamous dossier right all over the. news media correct it is widely thought. to be pretty scir.

some pretty salacious allegations this. is lurid stuff this is all. unsubstantiated and let's be clear for a. second just about the dossier many of. the allegations in it eventually are. debunked but for Trump Perkins kuy's. involvement in the dossier was just. unforgivable because as he comes into. office he quickly faces this sprawling. justice department special Council.

investigation into potential ties. between his campaign and Russia right. and the dossier had nothing to do with. why that investigation was opened but. Trump is able to conflate all of this. and blames the dossier and by extension. Mark Elias and Perkins Koy for the. investigation got. it dossier do you hear about the dossier. it was paid for by crooked Hillary.

Clinton he sees this or at least he. makes it out to be I call it the Russian. hoax all part of a larger deep state. conspiracy they lost the election and. they didn't know what. happened and they needed an excuse so. they said Russia he says big law. Democrats and the media have come to. together to unfairly tarnish him and.

delegitimize his election Victory and by. extension his presidency these are sick. [Music]. people and there has to be. accountability because it's all lies and. they know it's lies they. [Music]. know eventually Trump does get the. justice department to investigate. whether there was this. conspiracy and a range of different.

things are looked at including Perkins. kuy's role and ultimately that. investigation results in a Perkins kui. partner being indicted for misleading. the FBI during the 2016 campaign about. Trump's potential ties to Russia and. that partner goes on. trial but is acquitted H so the efforts. to use the criminal powers of the. justice department to go after Perkins.

Koy ultimately fall flat so Trump is. able to put this firm under some pretty. intense legal scrutiny but it doesn't. deliver for him the victory over Perkins. kuie that he clearly. craves correct but his tangling and. fighting with Perkins kui is not. over he loses the 2020 election and he's. going around the country trying to. overturn the results right and at many.

of the important junctures were Trump's. lawyers go into court to try to have the. results thrown out those lawyers find. themselves on the other side of Mark. Elias oh wow and Mark Elias and his. practice at Perkins Koy just kicked. Trump's butt they win pretty much all of. these Court battles they are celebrated.

by democrats as a Bull workk against. Trump Mr Mark Elias joins us now live Mr. Elias thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time. thanks for having by this point Elias is. all over the place as one of Trump's. loudest critics the fact is Republicans. didn't find really any fraud because. there wasn't much of any fraud he. essentially becomes synonymous with the. Democratic resistance to Trump the. lawsuits that were filed one after.

another after another were just you know. surreal they were not grounded in fact. but they also weren't grounded in law. and so for Trump there's no bigger foe. or offender in terms of lawyers or law. firms than Mark Elias and Perkins. koie and yet what can he do about it. well when he's out of office Trump tries. to Sue Perkins Koy and.

his lawyers try to make the argument. again that Perkins kuy was somehow. responsible for the investigation into. the ties between his campaign in Russia. which as you've said it was not correct. and the lawsuit falls apart and is. thrown out so once again Trump cannot. knock this firm down not for want of. trying he just keeps failing correct and. look for Perkins Koy this certainly was. not a fun Endeavor to the target of.

Trump's ey but they appear to breathe a. sigh of relief and then it gets even. sort of better for them Mark Elias. actually leaves Perkins kuy H so if. you're Perkins Koy you have survived the. scrutiny and you've gotten rid of the. lawyer who Trump hates the most but then. Trump wins. reelection and it doesn't matter to. Trump that Mark Elias is gone he still. wants revenge.

and just weeks into. office Trump goes after Perkins Koy in a. way that I did not think he was capable. of. [Music].

we'll be right. back so Mike once Trump returns to the. White House how does he go after Perkins. kuie in a way that as you just said. seemed unfathomable to you until he did. it I told you that Perkins koie did a. lot of work for Democrats mhm but a. major portion of the firm's day-to-day. work is rep representing companies and.

contractors that have business or. problems with the federal government. that's kind of their bread and butter. way of making money got it and to do. that and I know this may sound a little. basic you have to interact with the. federal government you have to talk to. the federal government you have to go. into the federal government to represent. your client right will could you come. over we're going to yes sir sign some. executive.

orders keeping that in mind Trump less. than two weeks ago in the Oval Office. sir your Administration has made it a. priority both to end law fair and the. weaponization of government and also to. hold those who have engaged in law fair. accountable signs an executive order uh. one of the law firms that uh has been. involved in that is called Perkins koi. that's also that essentially bars. Perkins Koy specifically the itself. named and its lawyers from entering.

Federal buildings and essentially. interacting or dealing with the federal. government this is an absolute honor to. sign what they've done is in it just. terrible making it impossible to do the. most basic function of their job which. is represent their clients before the. federal government correct and it should. never never be allowed to happen.

again and on top of that the executive. order basically says that if you're a. contractor and you have business with. the government and you are represented. or tied to Perkins coie you could lose. your work with the government as well. wow basically Trump in this executive. order is putting Perkins kooy on a. blacklist correct simply your tied to. Perkins kooy means that your work for.

the government is majorly in question so. what happens is is that almost. immediately The Firm starts to. Hemorrhage clients clients that they've. had for decades they start losing. clients every single day in the. aftermath of Trump's signing this and. this is an existential threat for this. Law Firm so Perkins kuie itself has to. go out and find a law firm so it can now. fight this in court can you just explain.

that because I think most people. listening will assume that a law firm. full of lawyers can fight its own fight. sure Perkins koie could have gone to. court and fought this themselves but. because it was existential they needed. to walk in the door with the best. representation they could get because if. they fail to stop this The Firm will be. toast right but what happens is in an. example of how powerful. this action from Trump was not every Law.

Firm is jumping up to represent Perkins. koie H because if they take on Perkins. Koy they could be the target of the next. Trump executive order crippling them. right but then something sort of. remarkable. happens in Washington is a law firm. called Williams and. Connelly they are known as the toughest. n nastiest fiercest litigators in.

Washington they almost take pride in. fighting the. government and amid all these questions. about whether anyone is going to step up. and come to the defense of Perkins Koy. Williams and Connelly comes off the. bench and says we'll do. [Music]. it we'll take the risk correct so as. quickly as they can William and Connelly. file suit against the Trump.

Administration asking a federal judge to. jump in and stop the executive order mhm. and there's a hearing before a judge in. which Williams and Connelly faces off. against the justice. department a Williamson Conelly lawyer. lays out how what Trump has done is. unconstitutional unfair fair and will.

destroy Perkins COI mhm the justice. department argues that the president of. the United States has great leeway to do. whatever he wants in this area and sees. Perkins kui as a potential national. security threat huh how can it justify. that claim that this firm because of its. role in the 2016 campaign and creating. this unfair Cloud around Trump's ties to. Russia is a threat to the country. country H that this law fir is dangerous.

correct and cannot be trusted to do. business with the federal government and. how does the judge rule she says it. sends a chill down her spine it is. chilling to the legal profession and she. issues a temporary restraining order. essentially barring major portions of. the executive order from being enforced. basically she hands Perkins kuie a. victory against President Trump correct. in the judicial sense but but the damage.

has probably already been done to. Perkins kuy if you're one of Perkins. ku's. clients you know that this firm has a. Target on its back even if the Supreme. Court someday says no Donald Trump you. did not have the power to do that to. Perkins kuie will it still have its. clients will the clients still have hung. around for this right by the time the. courts sort this all out kui May.

effectively be gone and that's kind of. the point for Trump and what is so. ultimately powerful about what he has. done here yes he's achieved an. extraordinary level of Retribution. against this one firm but by making an. example out of Perkins kui he's done. much more than that because he has told. the entire community of big law firms in. the country that what happened to. Perkins kuie is exactly what awaits them.

if they cross him or if they upset him. and what awaits them if they take that. risk is destruction and that is an. attack on the American justice system. because in our country the way that the. legal system has taken hold over the. past two and a half centuries is the. idea that everyone is entitled to a. vigorous defense to a lawyer who is. going to do everything in their power.

within the law and ethical guidelines to. defend them so what happens when if. you're a lawyer you're afraid to. represent different parties that are. potentially on the other side of the. government that the government is going. after and what does that mean for those. people who are potential targets of the. government whether they work at. usaid and they've been fired whether. they are An Inspector General who was.

just let go without congress's approval. theoretically in violation of the. Constitution whether you're a billion-. doll Grant being held up by this. President even though it's been approved. by Congress all those people all those. entities in theory are out there looking. for lawyers to sue the Trump. Administration or if you're one of the. people that we've talked about on the. show who Trump would like to have. criminally prosecuted if you're Liz.

Cheney or James Comey or Adam Schiff. what does that mean to them when the. government comes for them and they need. to find. lawyers and beyond all that the reason I. think this really matters is because of. the current makeup of Washington you. have a president who is using power in. ways that we have never seen before you. have Republicans on Capitol Hill who.

have no interest in standing up to him. Democrats seem to have no ability to. stop him a cabinet full of people who. were appointed because they have no. desire to stop him so that leaves the. courts but for the courts to hold Trump. accountable to stop Trump they need for. people to bring lawsuits in matters. before them and the People Best equipped. to do that are the big Law Firm in. Washington but if those firms are.

afraid that if they enter that fight. they could lose all of their business. Trump is then essentially taking one of. his biggest adversaries off the playing. field right essentially intimidating one. of the last maybe the last check and. balance against his power in this moment. there are other lawyers who can bring. these matters and that are skilled but. the ones with the most horsepower are.

potentially being. sidelined I've been reporting on this. for the past week and a half and I've. learned that the leaders of these law. firms have gone back and forth with each. other about what to do should they file. a friend of the court brief should they. put out a joint statement and despite. all of those discussions they are yet to. take any Collective action so justing to. some real degree that they are. intimidated that they are scared that.

what he's doing is. working privately they will all tell me. how horrific they think this is but. publicly they're saying very. [Music]. little oh Mike thank you very much. thanks for having me. [Music].

over the past few days president Trump. expanded his attack on the legal. industry by issuing a new executive. order that bars another Major law firm. Paul Weiss from interacting with the. federal government in the order Trump. singled out a former Paul Weiss lawyer. who had worked on a criminal case. against him calling the lawyer quote. unethical like Perkins koie Paul Weiss. is expected to sue the administration to.

block the. order we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need to know. today Israeli forces have launched. large-scale aerial attacks across the. Gaza Strip the first major strikes on.

the territory since Israel's ceasefire. with Hamas began roughly two months ago. gaza's Health Ministry said that more. than 400 people had been killed in the. strikes which raised the prospect of a. return to All Out. war and flight data reviewed by the New. York Times suggests that the Trump. Administration ignored a ruling from a. federal judge to turn around planes. carrying 200 migrants to El Salvador and.

return them to us soil the flight data. showed that none of the planes in. question landed in El Salvador before. the judge's order and that one of them. did not even leave American soil until. after the judge's written order was. posted online during a court hearing on. Monday a lawyer for the Trump. Administration denied that the White. House had violated the judge's ruling. stonewald when the judge judge asked for. detailed information about the flights.

and their timing and said that the. administration was not bound by the. judge's oral directive to turn the. planes around in response the judge. called that claim quote a heck of a. [Music]. stretch today's episode was produced by. Will Reed Mary Wilson and CLA tennised. it was edited by Rachel quer contains.

original music by Dan Powell and Pat. mccusker and was engineered by Chris. Wood our theme music is by Jim brunberg. and Ben lurk of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderlake that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Boro see you tomorrow. [Music].