How to Retire as Early as Humanly Possible

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily many Americans work their entire. lives and retire with nothing but a. group of frugal obsessives is trying to. flip that script today my colleague Amy. X Wong on the people behind this growing. movement and their bold bid to rethink. how long we.

[Music]. work it's Friday June. [Music]. 14th so Amy you've been exploring this. world of people who retire early tell me. about that how did you first discover. this movement well I had always been as. a child like predn naturally obsessed. with money and so I was constantly. looking for coupons and blogs about how.

to stretch a dollar how to invest. smartly things like that and as part of. that I would read these news stories. about people who were saving or making. money in a different way so I came. across maybe one or two stories like 10. or 15 years ago about people who were. following something called fire. financial Independence retire early. Financial Independence retire early. exactly so what is that it's really. about strategizing to leave the. workforce at an age of your own own.

choosing so say you plan to retire at 45. instead of 65 or there are even people. who do it at 35 so it's about freedom. from work and having the time to. yourself got it so it's less about. actually kind of retirement and. retirement age and more about work and. freedom from it right right it's it's a. philosophical movement that's kind of. wrapped in a bunch of Financial and. economic Logistics and were these just. kind of different people from different. walks of life like who were they yeah I. would have thought that it was people. who were mostly High earners like.

Bankers or surgeons or people who had. the means to scr away a lot of money. right but in fact I found that the range. of people who are planning for early. retirement really spans the gamut from. that kind of surgeon upper middle class. to the lower middle class to even people. who are on minimum wage you know making. like $35,000 and still being able to. retire Le so it was fascinating to. discover all these different kind of. fire people okay so it's a new. philosophy around work.

and you know the idea that it shouldn't. be taking up so much of our lives so. much space in our lives how did you. start reporting on this I had always. been keeping an eye on fire but I. noticed that in the pandemic it really. really took off and more and more people. were joining forums there are half a. million followers in the fire subreddit. and the financial Independence subreddit. is actually 2 million followers and then. you have all of these Facebook groups. all of these you know Twitter little. enclaves and influencers on Instagram.

and this whole ecosystem on social media. is just millions and millions of people. that is very very active and I wanted to. know are these real people who are. actually doing this who are actually. retiring. early hey Ellen hello can you guys hear. me and I found someone who is really. involved in the movement yeah can you. just start with some basics of telling. me your name and who you are uh sure. yeah my name is Alan Wong I'm in my. mid-30s and I've been since I've was.

25 his name is Alan Wong he's one of the. moderators and one of the biggest fire. subreddits he has retired and he's spent. the last decade or so essentially. coaching other people on how to fire in. his way and sharing details of his story. so tell me about. Ellen can you take us back to your. childhood and and where you grew up when. I was growing up I didn't really.

see much of my father um Alan grew up in. New York City in Queens and he watched. his immigrant parents essentially scrimp. and save to give them a better life even. my father he he uh he originally didn't. even finish High School um they're from. rural villages in China and his dad in. particular had a really hard life he was. like an orphan his father had many kids. and uh he couldn't afford to keep all. the kids so he just like gave him up so.

he ended up working in like a farm that. was like run by the government in. China uh and he did not like that he. didn't want to spend his entire life. working in a farm and his dad at one. point actually just so desperately. wanted to flee his circumstances that he. escaped from guango to Hong Kong um so. he he legally swam to Hong Kong by. crossing the river illegally because it. was it was an international border and. then from there I was able to buy a. plane ticket to New York City and. essentially he started life Chown.

started his life over and like escaped. the trappings of poverty from where he. was from. amazing is there someone that um I would. say I look up to it would be probably be. my father because he uh he wanted to do. anything possible to make sure that I. had a good life like I wasn't even born. yet but he wanted to make sure that his. kids had good life that's why he swam to. Hong Kong that's why he moved to New. York and all the stuff um it wasn't for. himself so Allan you know grows up with. this in mind right his father has done. all these extraordinary things to like.

wrench the family an entire ocean away. plant them in a different sphere and try. and start again in a more lucrative like. chasing the American dream way he's like. the type that really really works very. hard like if there's his father is going. to work he sells medicinal herbs in. Chinatown he's going to work every day. dawn to dusk I never really saw him you. know like he would work from the morning. so I would go to uh School.

and um sorry this. is I'm sorry. um he would go to work in the morning. and I would go to school and when I come. back from school I still would not see. him because he doesn't get off work. until uh 900 p.m. so by the time he. actually gets back home I'm already like. ready to go sleep and stuff like that. his mother as well she would also come. home exhausted from manual labor he was. a kid growing up essentially kind of on.

his own in New York City and and seeing. how tired work made his parents I felt. that I didn't want to have a life like. that like like I I understand the hustle. I understand trying to make as much. money as possible for your family but I. also believe that if you make so much. money but you're not happy you know. you're not with your family then what is. the point of making so much. money and then when he went to college. actually his father was ousted from his. business and it really drove him into.

this. spiral and so when he got fired he he. sprled into this like major depression. and he went to see like therapists and. they gave him like Prozac and stuff um. but it wasn't really working um and Alan. told me that his father actually. committed suicide because of this um so. that was uh that was really hard on me. because. I I thought like you're supposed to work. really hard and then be able to retire.

and then you know when you retire you're. like happy M but that wasn't the case. for him in the end he ended up being. this really depressed like husk of a. person um and I just I just uh vow to. not end up like. that so he's in New York City trying to. work his first entrylevel job I believe. he was coding for a tech company and his. mother because of everything going on. started having psychotic episodes so he.

had to figure out how he could possibly. take care of his mom and that's when I. discovered uh creating apps so he. resolved to get out of the. situation and the App Store was kind of. just coming up so he was like why don't. I just take a moonshot and make. something and it's going to take off and. I'm going to get my family out of this. situation so yeah so I spent all the all. of my free time every possible free hour. I had I would just try to learn and code.

new apps and so he very resolutely. essentially started coding Around the. Clock he was working his job he would. come home and in the evenings on the. weekends well these apps don't exist. anymore but I I made one you just code. away a different project like a news app. so he had a couple that like a dog. whistle or something like that didn't. take off uh it it allowed you to like. scroll the website by just tilting your. phone that were kind of Duds as he told. me just really like gimmicky kind of app. like that and so the police scanner idea.

and then he made this one app that was a. police scanner so it lets you tune into. Police radios around the world and it. proved really really useful like like I. kept refreshing the App Store to see. like where it was going you know like is. it higher now is it higher now and I. just kept watching it watching it so. Allan got so many downloads of his. police scanner app and there was all. this advertising revenue and. subscription Revenue coming in that at. one point he was pulling in.

$350,000 per month oh my God like life. changing money life-changing money. exactly and he started thinking you know. this is it right like I've done it I. have done the thing that I set out to do. I can take care of my mom I can hire. people to help her I can buy her a house. that kind of. thing so Alan told me that he had been. thinking about his you know like rich. person IDE deal purchase for a while.

like what would he buy if he suddenly. struck it rich I think people might hate. me for saying it but it was a it was a. bright lime green Lamborghini that I. bought was the first this shimmery. Lamborghini I was in my early 20s at the. time too it's like a trophy right like a. right like this is my thing i' I'm rich. now he's putting down a mark exactly the. reason why I bought that is because I. felt like I I I needed some reward for. what I did you know like I I I called it. my for just of solitude um because it.

allowed me to kind of insulate myself. from all the the bad stuff that was. going on in my life for a while just to. be in the car for a little bit to kind. of like enjoy the moment and then he. thought what do I do about work like. what do I do about my job that I'm still. clocking in and out of my 9 to-5 job. right and it didn't really make sense. for him to stay at work after all of. that right I mean he doesn't effectively. need to work right I mean $350,000 a. month is lot as we've established so.

what does he do so I just had to. quit so Alan quit his job forever. because he could right he was a. multi-millionaire at the age of 25 which. is a decision that you know most of us. would not even dream about making and. the reason why I quit I was always. worried uh about my mother I knew that. she couldn't really take care of herself. that much so I I need to physically be. at home and I knew that if I just kept. working I can't do that so Alan retired.

at 25 which was about a decade ago he's. been taking care of his mom ever since. she's doing a lot better now and he has. really settled into his own retirement. he lives in Florida the land of retirees. he plays pickle ball all day long he. owns a huge lavish home filled with. video games and trinkets Galore and he. bought a second Lamborghini he's really. achieved this childhood dream life so. we're talking in the context of this. fire movement Alan St is really.

interesting and seems to kind of show. that he achieved the fire movements. objectives but did he understand that he. had what is his connection to the. movement Allan essentially achieved fire. on his own without knowing that he'd. achieved fire he had done it he had. achieved Financial Independence he had. retired early so as part of that he. began spending a lot of time online kind. of just browsing or um finding. opportunities to chat with people and. somebody on a Reddit Forum it was not.

even a a fire Forum it was like a random. entrepreneurship Forum asked him a. question that was something like um. what's it like to be rich and he said he. wrote out this essay of a comment. expecting no one would read it except. for this one guy who would ask the. question and the comment went viral and. then all these people reached out to him. on Reddit and said you should join these. fire subreddits you would be great here. and people would really love your. mentorship and your insights and that's. how Alan Wong found himself kind of.

embraced by all these fire people and he. virtually looked around and he said wow. these are my people these are the people. who I've always been waiting for these. are the friends that I never knew that I. wanted so Amy this is absolutely. fascinating Allen's story but it does. strike me as pretty unique I mean here's. a guy who kind of struck it rich with. this app but I have to imagine most. people are not in his Camp so is this. replicable you are absolutely right. Alan's story is incredibly rare it's.

really really tough to make a. best-selling app and suddenly launch. yourself into. multimillionaire territory I decided I. was going to win the lottery and I did. for those who are who are listening to. this thinking of it start to dash your. dreams but it's really really tough and. so Allan almost got to fire as a fluke. right like this is not the kind of thing. you can plan for actually the majority. of people in the fire movement are. planning but they're doing it in a very. very different way it's about the.

nitty-gritty of personal finance it's. about strategizing the numbers that make. sense for you and this goes back. actually to the origin of the fire. movement the fire movement began in the. early 2000s not as anything about. getting rich it was about. anti-consumerism. it was about not spending money because. you didn't want to spend money it was. about reducing your footprint on the. planet about being a sort ofth iCal. responsible human.

being and that was how fire really began. people were like I don't want to work. anymore because I don't want to be. beholden to the system I don't want a. paycheck I just want to figure out. enough money for myself so that I can. retire and like leave the system like. unplug a lot of people talked about. taking the red pill and stepping out of. the Matrix so it was a freedom from work. but also kind of an ethos and a. philosophy of living light and not. buying stuff and just having kind of. freedom from you know the consumerist.

world mhh exactly you could get by. living off a can of beans so why bother. paying for the Michelin star meal you. [Music]. know so that sounds very very different. from what Allan did it absolutely is. completely different and in fact the. fire movement has grown so big and so. diverse that there essentially. splintering within the community of. different ways people are approaching. fire so the traditional route that just. talking about the anti-consumerism the.

whole ethics of it is now known as lean. fire and that stands in opposition to. what Allen is which is fat fire stands. to reason yeah so was kind of. self-explanatory lean fire and fat fire. you have one Camp that's all about like. minimalist cutting it down to the bone. being happy with where you are and fat. fire which is all about like blowing. that all up getting as rich as possible. having your cake and eating it to being. able to retire but doing it in the lap.

of luxury but how does the main stream. of the fire movement I mean not the. Allen but everybody else how do they. actually do it I mean how do you retire. at 30 if you don't make a bestselling. app so the the great trick of fire is. planning and that sounds really silly. but that's how people get there a lot of. things that the fire people recommend. are actually things that financially. Savvy people are doing already like. maxing out your 401K investing in index.

funds the real fundamental difference. between that and what the fire people. are doing though is the amount and the. kind of aggressiveness that you're. pursuing it with so the average person. is putting in 10 to 20% of their. paycheck into these instruments like. 401ks what the fire people recommend is. 50 to 70% of your paycheck 70% of your. paycheck 70% of your paycheck and of. course you don't have to do it that way. you don't have to live off of only 30%.

of your income but the idea is if you do. that then you'll get there faster right. so it's kind of about a personal. trade-off like say you don't want to be. living so frugally and you'd rather. enjoy yourself a little bit more then. you can save let's say 50% and it will. just take you a little bit longer to get. to retirement the idea of fire is. calculating first the amount that you'll. need start with the age that you want to. retire and then work backwards from. there to determine how aggressive you. need to be about saving.

so Amy this is kind of baffling because. I guess I'm thinking you know regular. American household barely has enough to. pay the bills pay the rent and. everything how are they saving 70% of. their paycheck MH I had the exact same. question I kept thinking there has to be. something else there has to be a secret. behind the secret I'm missing something. it can't just be saving money in This. ferocious way and like who can do that. like you have to be a surgeon a top tier.

lawyer that kind of person to be able to. afford to save this much. money so I realized that to understand. whether fire can really work for. everyone I needed to look for some. everyday people who had actually managed. to pull this. [Music]. off well be right.

back so Amy you said you set out to find. ordinary people who had done. fire how did you start that where'd you. go I went and found the biggest Fire. Conference in the country it's something. called econom me econ o m get the pun. okay and it is the largest gathering of. fire people on an annual basis I believe. this is its third or fourth year of. people who have either made it already. into early retirement or are close or.

maybe just are stepping their toes in. okay so describe the scene you go to. this economy conference what does it. look like who's there I was expecting. either a crowd of retired millionaires. or a crowd of like really young people. who were just graduating from college. and frustrated but it was a huge huge. diverse. mix there were Millennials there were. the retirees and the people people who. had made it who were kind of just there.

sitting back being like let me show you. the way but there were also all of these. pretty everyday people there were people. who worked on cruises there were Public. School teachers Off Broadway actors. dentists plumbers all sorts of people of. different ages too who had flown from. different parts of the country and even. the world to come here to be with other. people who were. like-minded and what was the vibe like. like what was it like sitting in the.

room and listening to people it was kind. of like being in a secret lair of some. sort or like underground World in which. things were Topsy Turvy and it was not. the status quo that was the case above. ground what I mean by that is everyone. talked openly about money and their. money they would share with each other. how much money they had in their bank. accounts or what their salary was the. raise they had gotten last year the. number of figures of debt they were in. like oh I'm in five figure debt you know.

I have a million dollars in debt okay. that is topsy turul right they would. they would say this openly and it was. like an Embrace of money that is so so. oppositional to what we normally have in. Western Society right that it was really. really odd and and culture shocky at the. end of it I was like I want this to be. the default of think I want to go around. sharing my net worth and my student debt. and all of this with other people and I. want them to share it back with me. so Amy who did you meet bring us into.

the room with you tell me about the. people you met a couple people really. stood out to me there were some people. who had discovered fire young this your. first time here no right you've been. here my third economy it's probably like. my 20th. five when Ms discovered fire when she. was in her early 20s and she grew up. similar to what we're talking about with. Allan in a kind of financially stressful. situation um so I grew up like really. poor we were living way below poverty. line and so like we never had money and.

I was like I want money so I can have. things and like say yes to things and. like not have to be like bullied sent. out the right clothes right like I. wanted to just not stick out because we. didn't have money so she always had this. message that she wanted money for. herself so that she could be happy and. live freely and not be judged do you. remember the website stumble upon the. day rip I know right I put in personal. finances one of my interests and I was. like so you're telling that all I have. to do is follow these easy steps these.

simple steps maybe not so easy for some. people and I'll be able to quit working. early and I'll have lots of money like. sign me up yeah and she embarked on a. journey when she was in her early 20s. and she's now at the point where she. could quit her job if she wanted to or. she could keep going and she hasn't. really decided story like when I started. out I had $10,000 in the bank and people. were like yeah what do you know you're. 22 right 933 I have half a million.

dollar net worth and people are like oh. actually wow we've done a lot in 10. years like maybe there's something to. this there were other people I met who. were older actually and just discovering. fire um I been an actor since I was 15. years old I'm 48 now for instance I met. one woman who goes by the name Essence. revealed who was actually an actor her. entire life and she told me she never. really thought about retirement acting. is not like you know being a ballet. dancer or football player or something.

where your body's like we can't do this. anymore you know I can pretty much act. until I die so I she knew about fire but. it seemed completely out of the realm of. possibility for her but then when the. pandemic happened all of the things that. I did for money were gone and so I just. ended up unemployed and but when the. pandemic hit she had this realization. that she needed to have a financial plan. of some sort she couldn't just rely on. paychecks so she read more about fire. she learned about investing and then she.

decided to completely upend her life and. she became a truck driver a truck driver. right I had actually called my god. brother to borrow a month's rent and. he's like have you ever thought about. driving a truck and I said absolutely. not she heard about Trucking as a job. from someone she knew and she thought. you know it doesn't sound like such a. bad gig I can live in a truck have money. to save and see the country at the same. time so in the back I have like a bed um. um I have a microwave I have a plug-in.

griddle and an instant pot and there's. cabinets for clothes and things very. small but um Whole New York City. Apartment it's I was just about to say. but I've been living in a New York City. Studio haven't living in so she did it. she she lived in an 18-wheeler truck. that was also her job driving around the. country which was of course a little. tight but she quickly went from saving. very little money to saving 70% of her. paycheck every single week amazing so. then I was like now I think I can do.

this fire thing I haven't actually sat. down and done the math like times how. many years will I actually get there but. I feel like I can get there um okay so. you were actually Finding Normal not. fabulously wealthy people that were. doing fire saving really aggressively. and according to them it's working this. is real for the people you were talking. to it is real it is very very real which. Amy leads to my next question which is. once a person does achieve fire you know.

managed to retire at 40 years old or. even a 30 years old for that matter what. do you do with the rest of your life. yeah it's unimaginable for many people. and so many people don't think about it. but when you do fire you have to think. about it and you often don't have a. grand plan the first few years of. retirement were actually really hard for. me because I I really didn't know what. to do afterwards Alan Alan Wong who we.

were just talking about went through. this himself it was as if like I. finished a movie uh really quickly and. everyone else was still watching that. movie you know it's like I'm I'm like. already watching the end credits and. everyone still like on the First Act he. had a period of many years of kind of. soul searching I traveled the world and. I tried to do every possible fun thing I. could do um to see if maybe that'll make. me happy he had his YouTube account. where he was showing off his cars that. didn't really make him happy he bought.

all these things it didn't really make. him happy so I started volunteering and. helping people that are less fortunate. and I felt better like I felt like I. wasn't just moping around in life what. he found was he really liked giving back. and kind of establishing relationships I. was used to it you know I was used to. taking care of my mother and helping her. but I realized that I had a skill set to. help others as well besides my my own. family and then of course he spends a. huge amount of his time being the. moderator of the fatfire subreddit which.

is where I found him actually and how it. came across him because he posts there. all the time but Allan after all these. years of soul searching realized that. what he was really after too was not. just the question of what makes me happy. but who am I without work and that's. such a resonant question for all of us. like who are we all without work how. does he answer it people keep trying to. ask me like what I do because they they. want to know who I am what I'm like and. stuff like.

[Music]. that and I I don't even know myself. because like I don't really have an. identity I don't. think and I'm okay with. that he was telling me that he doesn't. really have an identity and he's working. towards being proud of that like he's. rebelling against the idea that you have. to be one thing you have to be a noun or. two nouns or different things that you. do and he is almost kind of defiantly.

saying he's nothing he's not any of. these things he doesn't want to be I. thought that was really interesting. because a lot of other people in the. fire movement also feel this way too. when they retire like they don't want to. Define themselves and the whole idea is. very subversive right like The. overarching Credo of fire is that you. don't belong to work you belong to. yourself so you don't need work to. Define yourself like you're not a former. software engineer who is now a gardener.

or whatever it is you're just you you're. a good person who has interest in. relationships and is beloved and. [Music]. loves I don't believe that I I need to. have any identity I don't I don't need. to be known for anything I don't feel. like one thing should describe a person. you know they I feel like they they're. made up of all their actions not just. one thing that they do. [Music].

so Amy I'm curious what you make of the. fact that fire is really kind of surging. now why now why this. timing well I think fundamentally we're. just in a completely different world. we're in a different era in a different. world to what our parents grew up in. there is very little job security out. there in the way that there used to be. you know it was very straightforward you. graduated college you got a job you.

stayed in it for like 40 plus years gold. watch at the end big retirement party. great pension retirement like done deal. like a very straightforward way of. living and now all of that is just blown. completely up we're in this time of. economic unknown and the cards are so. stacked against people it's so difficult. for Millennials to even comprehend. buying a house the way that the Boomer. parents did right as one example that. you just can't plan for this sort of. thing so people are detaching from it.

they're like leaving this vision and. stepping out of themselves and saying. wait a minute there has to be an. alternative and what fire really. provides is not necessarily A. straightforward answer it's not like a. just take this instead kind of. alternative it's more like an a fill-in. theblank like question mark that um. allows people to figure it out. themselves it's like here's an. alternative path take it see where it. leads you and figure out maybe if you.

might find your way to a different kind. of American Dream people are searching. and this is helping them provide some. answers it's giving them the agency to. Take Back Control it's it's like giving. them the kind of empowerment the way. that like a support group would to tell. people it's okay to think differently. like try to think out of the box. actually thinking out of the box is the. whole idea of fire it's being subversive. being a little cheeky about it and. saying I don't want to do things the way. that the system does I want to design my.

own version of a happy. [Music]. life Amy thank you very much thank you. [Music]. [Music].

we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need to know. today on Thursday the Supreme Court. upheld access to a widely available. abortion pill rejecting a bid from. anti-abortion organizations to restrict. the pill because they lacked the right. to sue the ruling on the drug Myer pyone.

was unanimous the justices sidestepped. the questions of safety and morality and. focused entirely on the issue of. standing the doctrine that requires. plaintiffs to show that they have. suffered direct and concrete injuries in. order to bring their complaint to Court. Justice Brett Kavanagh wrote in the. decision that the doctors and the. organizations who brought the suit had. not suffered those injuries and thus had. no grounds to Sue and at a meeting in. Italy the G7 the West's seven largest.

economic Powers agreed to give Ukraine a. $50 billion loan to help it in its war. against Russia the loan will be repaid. from interest earned on Russian assets. that were frozen in European Banks when. Russia invaded Ukraine for 2 years since. that Invasion Western countries have. debated what to do with the. approximately $300 billion in Russian. assets asking in particular whether they. could legally turn those assets over to.

the government of Ukraine the move on. Thursday represented a. compromise a quick reminder to catch a. new episode of the interview right here. tomorrow this week David maresi speaks. with Serena Williams about life after. tennis that had been my life for over 40. years and so it was like you don't go. from. literally a 40-year career to just going.

okay what do you do today. [Music]. nothing today's episode was produced by. Luke Vander plug and mo Z with help from. CLA tennis Scutter it was edited by. Brendan clink BG contains original music. by Diane Wong Dan Powell Maran Lozano. and Alicia beu and was engineered by. Alysa Moxley our theme music is by Jim.

brunberg and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina Tavern see you on Monday. [Music].