How Telegram Became the Underworld’s Favorite App

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily a times investigation has found. that one of the world's biggest. messaging apps with nearly a billion. users is also a giant black market and. Gathering Place for terrorists and white. supremacists today my colleague Adam.

satano on the extraordinary story of. telegram and how it's led to one of the. first arrests of a social media CEO in. [Music]. history it's Monday September. [Music]. 23rd Adam welcome back to the show. thanks for having me so Adam you and our. colleagues just published a big.

investigation into what's going on. inside this giant messaging app called. Telegram and it really came at the. perfect time because the founder of the. platform was arrested in France just a. few weeks ago so tell us what happened. so this was a fascinating case so this. guy Pavo durov a Russian Tech. billionaire his private plane lands at. an airport outside Paris and he is. immediately picked up by the French. authorities and detained.

and the French authorities at first are. providing very little detail about what. happened it happens over a weekend. there's not much public statements being. put out there's a few french media. reports and then a few days later the. French prosecutors put out a press. release one page long and it just lists. all these different things that he's. been charged with complicity and crimes. including the spread of child. pornography drug trafficking organized.

gang fraud criminal. conspiracy and this was a shock and an. important moment because telegram is a. massive platform that's used by almost a. billion people around the world and it. raised this really fascinating question. of to what extent does the head of a. tech company be held responsible for. what users of that service are now doing. okay so this is a huge platform a big. chunk of the world uses it and its.

founder durv is in trouble because of. what's happening on it so let's start. with him durv tell me about him he's a. fascinating character he was born in the. Soviet Union he moved to Italy when he. was a child his father was an academic. and was working there and then after the. fall of the Soviet Union they moved back. to St Petersburg and he and his brother. who is a real engineering whiz but. become fascinated with an IBM computer.

that they had brought back with them. from Italy and when Pavo is in. University he's shown Facebook for the. first time and he becomes fascinated by. it and he's like I want to create my own. and so they start their own version of. Facebook geared towards Russia a company. known as VK contacta as it's known in. Russian yes and it explodes in. popularity and durov himself begins to. develop bit of a.

profile on the one hand he becomes known. as Russia's Mark Zuckerberg he starts a. social media company it's at a time when. having a startup like that is cool he's. being written about in places like Tech. Crunch and other Western. press but on the other hand he's sort of. a loose cannon he has this incident. where he throws cash out the window of. their offices in St Petersburg and it. leads to a street fight down Below in.

another instance he hit a police officer. with a car when he's trying to evade a. traffic stop because he had driven onto. the sidewalk to avoid traffic and so he. has this kind of trollish element to him. but he's one who has a lot of money and. therefore a lot of power and influence. at the. [Music]. time so kind of like a tech bro with a. trolly kind of contrarian attitude ude.

but knowing Putin and Russia that's. probably a pretty dangerous position to. take at that time in that country right. as the popularity of the service takes. off it's also drawing the attention of. the Russian authorities Who start coming. to dorov and the company for information. about. users and it becomes a source of tension. and it's also a point where you start to. see dor off's anti-authority streak come. forward when the authorities were asking.

for information about some opposition. politicians he responded online by. posting a picture of a hoodie wearing. dog and he said this is my official. response to the intelligence services so. thumbing his nose at the Russian. authorities which as we all know can uh. be a little dangerous exactly and it. comes to a head over some Ukrainian. activists that the Russian authorities. want durov to provide information about. and it becomes this moment where he is.

forced to decide whether or not he's. going to cooperate with Russian. authorities or if he is going to have to. hand it over so he is essentially forced. to sell the company he chooses that so. DV is essentially forced to abandon his. own darling here his company that he. built from scratch and he chooses to do. that rather than to see it become. something that he doesn't agree with. exactly that must have been pretty. painful yeah was obviously my first.

company was my baby I created myself. there was a lot of creativity time and. effort invested in that platform durov. doesn't really give many interviews but. a few months ago he had one with Tucker. Carlson and they touched on this moment. but at the same time uh you know I. understood that I would rather be free I. would want to take orders from anyone. and uh I left behind probably a. comfortable life and he make makes it. really clear that this was a dilemma but.

the choice was clear for him he knew. what he had to do for me everything in. my life was about becoming free yes. and to the extent it is possible my. mission in life was to allow other. people to also become free in a sense. and using the platforms that we create. or I. created uh My Hope was that they could. express their freedoms for off this.

moment ends up being a really important. inflection point in his life because in. the middle of all this getting all this. pressure from Russian authorities in. losing VK he starts to build a. communications platform that he hopes. will sit outside any government and that. they won't be able to crack down on him. and that tool is telegram so tell me. about the birth of telegram how does it. get started durov starts Telegram in. 2013 and it's the next year in January. 2014 that they announced that he's lost.

FK and he decides to leave Russia and. look for a new place to push ahead with. this new project and so he and a handful. of Engineers they bounce around to. different places they become something. like digital Nomads they're in Berlin. they're in London they're in San. Francisco They even push out a software. update from a boat in Southeast Asia wow. they eventually land in Dubai where. durov says that the government's given. assurances that they won't meddle in. what they're doing and he feels it's a.

place can be a long-term home for. telegram what does telegram look like in. those early days so when telegram first. comes out it's basically a simple. messaging app like iMessage or Whatsapp. you can text your friends you can start. small group chats but over the next few. years telegram becomes much much more in. 2015 they added something called. channels and these are basically one-way. broadcasting features.

any user can start a channel you send a. message and anyone who subscribes will. receive it in governments public figures. and others begin to flock there. Ukrainian president vlir zalinski is. there you have government agencies that. post updates there but it's also all. sorts of random quirky stuff too you can. get reality TV news from Brazil there. you can get math lessons in India there. prepare for civil services exams it.

really runs the gamut so telegram is. already beginning to sort of transition. here from a pure messaging up to some. kind of social media platform exactly. and they continue down this path in 2015. they also introduced something called. supergroups and it's like a typical. group chat but with a lot more people. and so these superg groups start out. with a thousand people user cap but over. the course of the next few years. Telegram increases the cap exponentially.

it's 5,000 then 10,000 then 100,000 all. the way up to 200,000 in. [Music]. 2019 and how unusual is this Adam I mean. do the other tech companies have. features like this not in the same way. no in fact as they were expanding the. the number of people who could. participate in these kind of groups. others like WhatsApp were going the. other direction because of concerns that.

were being raised about the spread of. misinformation or disinformation and so. you have telegram really moving in a. different direction from these other. platforms and it helps distinguish it. and it helps it grow right and how much. is it growing how popular does telegram. actually get so telegram starts off with. 100,000 users in 2013 and just 3 years. later is grown to 100 million users and. today telegram has has nearly a billion.

active users and so just to give you. some sense of context it's the fourth. most popular messaging app in the World. Behind WhatsApp WeChat the giant Chinese. messaging service and Facebook messenger. that's just a wild number of people it. really is and what's Wilder to me is. that over the years as telegram is. exploding in popularity the company. itself stays essentially the same size. so telegram has around 60 core employees.

and it basically operates still like. it's a small startup there's no HR. department there's like a stitch. together content moderation team there's. dur off at the top and some other core. employees and that's it I mean this is. just so remarkable because when you. think of big Tech platforms say like. meta for example you think of them. employing tens of thousands of workers. not fewer than a 100 like you have here. with telegram right absolutely and it's. really a reflection of what telegram.

is they don't have a large team of. content moderators because they don't. need one they don't believe in it. they're not interested in limiting what. their users say or do telegram builds. itself as anti-establishment it's. anti-authoritarian it's free speech it's. what durov believes in and he's become. the sort of free speech folk hero in the. tech. [Music]. community and and that ethos is what.

attracts hundreds of millions of users. to telegram but it's also what lays the. groundwork for durov's problems because. some of those users who are flocking to. telegram are doing so for some pretty. nefarious. reasons we'll be right back. [Music].

So Adam you said that telegram's ethos. created this kind of free-for-all which. ultimately led to durov's problems and. that is of course what you and our. colleagues have been investigating so. what is actually happening on this. platform yeah so by the time pav durov. was arrested getting off his jet in. Paris myself and some other colleagues. we were months into an investigation. into telegram so using software where we.

were able to analyze 3.2 million. messages on telegram across 16,000. channels and what we soon began to find. as we look deeper is the volume of. criminal and extremist behavior that is. happening on there was really quite. shocking and Adam when you started to. look into these channels what exactly. did you find one of the main things that. we found was the volume of sort of white. supremacy and white supremacist groups.

that are operating in Europe and the. United States especially and they use. telegram for. communication for recruitment for. sharing their ideology and in some. respects you see that these groups are. also a place for staging violence. there's a group called terram that's. been designated a terror organization in. the UK where they are plotting violence. and sharing information about weapons in.

other ways to Stage potential attacks. and it's really provided a Haven for. them to grow so Adam give me an example. of a group that really has used all of. these features of telegram as you're. saying one of the clearest examples that. we found is. Hamas and so when Hamas attacked Israel. on October 7th it announce the assault. on Telegram.

you know within a few hours of moving in. they began posting all sorts of videos. of the. Carnage and you've got over a 3-day. stretch where they've posted something. like nearly 700 times and they get over. 54 million views according to the. analysis that we did some of the videos. of the hostages were shared over. Telegram before some of these people.

were killed telegram was this key key. piece of the Hamas propaganda strategy. and so it provides this massive. megaphone for Hamas to share its. messaging what else did you find in your. investigation one of the most surprising. things we were able to find is the. extent to which telegram acts as a black. market. [Music].

it is a clearing house for all sorts of. illegal Goods you can buy handguns you. can buy machine guns you can buy cocaine. you can buy MDMA you can buy fraudulent. ATM cards the list goes on and on and on. so in other words it really simplifies. the process of buying or selling. something illegal online you don't have. to be a specialist you can just be. anyone with the telegram app exactly and. it's happening braz I mean they post.

videos of people opening their. deliveries which they will call. touchdowns it has all sorts of slang. that's used within a lot of these groups. for buying drugs or guns they act like. salesmen like oh I can make a good deal. for you I can deliver to these 30. countries they talk about how to make. payments using crypto currencies they'll. have videos of packages of. pharmaceuticals that they have have for. sale so it's this kind of open air drug.

and gun Market within an iPhone. [Music]. app and so you have to sort of step back. and think like oh well bad stuff is on. the internet who cares but usually for. this kind of stuff you have to use the. dark web which requires a special kind. of browser and then and it has all sorts. of Hoops that you might have to jump. through with telegram it's a simpl to.

use app right there on your phone in. your pocket and people have called it. the dark web in your pocket so Adam this. is pretty remarkable I mean just how. much illegal activity is happening on. telegram kind of in plain. sight what can governments and law. enforcement do to combat this kind of. activity how are they dealing with this. the governments haven't been able to do. much in large part because durov and. telegram have refused to cooperate we.

spoke to law enforcement and government. agencies around the world who expressed. extreme frustration in trying to get any. sort of cooperation from telegram the. NYPD told us that they don't even bother. to send requests anymore because they. don't get any help from telegram they've. stopped even trying yeah and German. prosecutors told us the same thing I. spoke to somebody who just conducted a. bunch of research in Argentina and there.

they have a uh a prosecutor unit. dedicated to child sexual abuse material. they can't get any help from Telegram. and so it's this black box where. telegram does not cooperate with law. enforcement and I think this is like a. really important point that is what has. gotten telegram into perhaps the most. trouble is that companies like Google. meta Tik Tock they have teams of people. who are responsible for responding to.

requests from law enforcement and. thousands of moderators who will take. down all sorts of material telegram. doesn't have that and so therefore you. end up in a situation where there is a. lot of illegal activity happening on the. platform and nothing is being done about. it and if you're a police department if. you're a prosecutor that is immensely. frustrating and infuriating so this all. brings us Adam to paval durov's arrest.

in France and really helps me understand. what the French government might have. been trying to tell him bring me back to. that case and and tell me where it. stands. now so pav durov is in France now. waiting trial at least one of the. charges carries a up to 10-year prison. sentence and you know the first word of. the press release that the French. prosecutors put out was complicity and. they're essentially saying that pav.

durov is complicit in all these crimes. that include child pornography drug. trafficking gang fraud criminal. conspiracy the list goes on and so. they're saying that because he and his. company were so uncooperative in trying. to deal with these different crimes they. say that there is an almost total lack. of response from telegram to Legal. requests and they finally had enough and. so when his plane landed in France they.

grabbed him and this is pretty unusual. right I mean when it comes to social. media we haven't really seen a big Tech. CEO held criminally responsible for. something like this absolutely I mean. his arrest is a big move by the French. authorities there's little precedent for. something like this they're essentially. holding him as the CEO of the company. responsible for the behavior of others. basically saying he's an accomplice he's. complicit and this is not usually how.

governments have handled these sorts of. crimes on social media and what has durv. said in response what's his defense so. his main defense seems to be I'm not. responsible for what users do on my. platform he didn't sell the drugs he. didn't sell the guns he's also said that. telegram is a victim of its success it. grew too fast and he's expressed some. Contrition saying they were going to put. certain new polic policies in place to.

respond more quickly to certain law. enforcement requests and to moderate. more content but beyond that this arrest. really cuts to the core of what telegram. stands for it's like what they've been. trying to achieve for durov the whole. point of telegram is to create a. platform that's free from government. interference it's not going to submit to. government requests that it stands with. its users not with governments and in. places like Russia and Iran telegrams. been seen as a Force for good and that. makes sense if you're a guy who grew up.

in Russia where the government calls. anyone it disagrees with a criminal or a. terrorist but in a lot of the rest of. the world including France people live. by laws not by the whims of an. authoritarian leader like Putin and if. they break those laws the government. comes after them as it should right I. mean durov would have us believe that. this situation is incredibly black and. white that in order to have a free space. where anyone can openly Express them. elves you have to have minimal.

moderation it's like censorship or no. and he's arguing that the trade-off is. worth it that it's better to have Hamas. broadcasting and understanding their. point of view than to have a Russian. police state but the thing is it's not. totally clear that the situation is this. black and. [Music]. white most of the tech sector doesn't. work this way other social media sites. like Facebook or YouTube which are by no. means perfect they have fairly robust.

policies and teams in place trying to. keep the worst activity off their. platforms and they do a fairly good job. of cultivating a Marketplace for ideas. but like you said that isn't how durov. sees the world he has a very black and. white View and there's a really good. chance that he's going to be held. accountable for the consequences of. holding on to those ideals so tightly. [Music].

Adam thank you thank. [Music]. you we'll be right. back here's what else you should know. today over the weekend a devastating. Israeli air strike on the Lebanese. militant group Hezbollah in central. Beirut on Friday killed at least 37. including two commanders the attack.

leveled two apartment buildings and. plunged Lebanon into further chaos days. after pagers and walkie-talkies. belonging to Hezbollah members exploded. on mass the attacks appeared to Mark a. stark shift in the calculations that. have long governed the decades old. conflict between Israel and lebanon's. most powerful militant group until last. week Israel had refrained from launching. the kind of of attacks that its leaders. had feared could provoke retaliatory.

strikes by Hezbollah but over the past. few days Israel has crossed what had. unofficially been considered red lines. the times reports that Israel's moves. seem to indicate that the country's. leaders have decided they can no longer. live with the threat of Hezbollah on. their northern. border and the Georgia state election. board voted on Friday to force counties. to hand count all ballots cast on.

Election Day a move that critics say. could significantly delay the reporting. of results in the Battleground State and. inject chaos into the postelection. period the new rule which passed on a. 3-2 vote runs counter to extensive legal. advice from election officials and law. enforcement officials in the state the. new rule is the latest in a stream of. right-wing election policies passed by. the state election board over the past.

few. months today's episode was produced by. Luke vruk and will Reed with help from. Jessica Chung and Carlos PR it was. edited by Brendan kinken BG contains. original music by Maran Lozano Rowan. Nimo and Diane Wong and was engineered. by Chris Wood our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanser of wonderly.

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina. Tavern see you tomorrow. [Music].