How Flock Cameras Took Over America

Let's get the sun shade out of the way. Above the furthest most see it up there. >> Yeah, >> that's one of them. >> Interesting. >> And so from the New York Times, I'm. Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily. And. >> there's one over there, too. >> Yeah. >> I guess once you start to see them, you. just start to see them. I guess I've. never paid that much attention to it. >> You will be aware of them after today.

Earlier this summer, [music] my Times. colleague, Fernando Alfonso, got in a. car with a man named Phillip. He didn't. want us to use his last name. They drove. around the suburban streets of [music]. Dallas searching for traffic cameras. >> You see the white pole up there? >> There's a camera kind of sticking. [music] down flat. >> That's one. >> That's one. >> They were on the lookout not for a red. light camera or a speed trap camera, >> but something totally different. an. automatic license plate [music] reader. made by a company called Flock.

>> And that's a Flock. >> That is a Flock. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Law enforcement agencies say that these. cameras are essential in fighting crime. But Philip [music] and people like him. who've identified the locations of a. 100,000 flock cameras all over [music]. the country see them as something else. The beginnings of a surveillance state. >> [music]. >> Today I speak to my colleague Kashmir. Hill about the company behind the. cameras and the mounting [music].

backlash against them. It's Monday, August 31st. [music]. Kashmir Hill, welcome back to the Daily. Good to be here. So Gash, you've covered. so many different types of surveillance. at this point. I know a lot of Americans. are aware that they are being watched in. sort of one form or another, whether. it's online or in public spaces. So, can. you just start off by explaining what is.

so different about this particular kind. of surveillance and why it's prompted. people to finally say like enough is. enough? So, these are cameras that take. photos of cars and read their license. plates. If you start looking around as. you're driving, you might see them on a. pole by the road, solar panel, camera. looking down your way, and they're in. places where people maybe aren't used to. being surveiled. You know, they're in.

rural roads, just in communities that. don't necessarily have a lot of other. cameras around. Also, people do have. this kind of privacy attachment to their. cars. And so I think Americans kind of. think of your car as this kind of symbol. of freedom, this thing you can get away. from everyone, but now you can't because. there are going to be cameras tracking. it. >> And so my colleague Fernando Alfonso and. I found that people were just getting. really upset about these cameras. And it. was a level of uproar over privacy that.

I haven't seen before or at least. haven't seen in a very long time. So, what is the camera capturing exactly? Just the license plate or is it. something more complicated than that? Because on its face, a license plate. reader, that sort of sounds a bit. benign. Yeah. So, the cameras take. photos of cars as they pass. They get. the license plate, but you can also use. a system to search other things like the. color of the car, the make of the car, whether it has a bumper sticker or.

visible damage or a toolbox on the back. And this gives police more visibility. into our movements than they've ever had. before. >> This company called Flock is the. industry leader. They're kind of the. name that everybody knows because. they're the biggest. Flock alone has. 120,000 of these cameras across the. country in every state but Alaska. >> 7,000 law enforcement agencies have. contracts with Flock, which is about 40%.

of all law enforcement in the country. Okay. So, a lot very ubiquitous a lot. They have really achieved market. penetration quickly. They only started. working with police in 2020 and the. company is now valued at over $8. billion. Wow. Okay. So, $8 billion, 40%. of police departments. Let's talk about. the company for a minute. How did its. cameras get everywhere so quickly? So, Flock was founded by a serial. entrepreneur named Garrett Langley.

>> Hi, Garrett. Nice to meet you. I'm. Cashmir. I actually met with him a few. weeks ago. >> Nice to meet you, Cashmir. You're in New. York, right? >> I am. >> He said he got the idea because he lived. in Atlanta, Georgia. That's where the. company is headquartered. >> I started the company 9 years ago. knowing nothing about law enforcement, public safety. Just this like confusion. as an engineer of why it was so easy to. get away with crime in America. >> And in his neighborhood, people kept. breaking into cars on the weekends. And. we kept having the same group, seemingly.

the same group, come in on a Friday. night. >> and he said, "Taking guns out of the. glove boxes. Oh my god, it was happening. every weekend." He was really. frustrated. >> And so when I was talking to our zone. commander, I was like, "Major, why can't. you catch these people? Like, do. something about this.". >> And so we called the police department. >> And he was like, "What do you expect me. to do? We're not the CSI on TV. I'm not. going to like I'm one guy." And I was. like, "Well, but they're stealing guns. Like this is crazy." And he said that. the person he talked to said that they.

needed their license plate numbers. >> I was like, "What? What are you talking. about? What would a license plate do in. this situation? How would it help?" He's. like, "Trust me, a license plate is the. most actionable piece of evidence we can. get." And I said, "Fine." And I called. Paige and Matt. I was like, "Here's what. we're going to do. We're going to build. license plate reading cameras for. neighborhoods.". >> So he decided to create this product. along with two of his classmates from. Georgia Tech. We This is literally like. we were just messing around conceptually.

of like what is. >> they wanted to make cheap license plate. readers basically put a phone together. with a solar panel. >> hooked up to an old Android with a solar. power and. >> that you could put on street poles and. it would just get photos of cars that. were driving past. >> And so we built a bunch we put them up. in in in a couple neighborhoods. And for. the first probably 2 or 3 years we were. only selling to neighborhoods. Flock. first started selling these to. homeowners associations. Kind of like an. automated neighborhood watch. So you.

could, you know, see who was coming and. going. If there was a package theft, you. could see, well, what car was there and. drove away. >> Mhm. >> And like 2 months into the business, we. made our first arrest. >> And just a few months after they start. installing these devices, Langley said. that he got a call from the police. telling him that it was [music] helping. to solve crime. And I was like, "Oh my. gosh, like it works. This major wasn't. lying to me. They actually just need. evidence. If they have evidence, they.

will prosecute a case.". >> Wow. Okay. So, in this moment, this is. like basically his proof of concept, >> right? How do things go from there? How. does a company grow from there? So, in. [music] 2020, the company starts working. for the first time with a police. department in Jersey Village, Texas. And. this kind of changes the business model. Instead of putting it on private [music]. streets, you're starting to put it on. public roads and the business really.

exploded [music] from there. >> And they see a ton of success. And so. that police chief is telling his. friends, that mayor [music] is telling. her friends. >> They started working with police. departments around the country. >> You need to get this in your town. Like. we're we're safer now. [music] And that. word of mouth, you know, spread quite. quickly. >> [music]. >> And with that expansion. has come a kind of growing backlash as. communities are discovering that these.

cameras are [music] there and how. they're being used. I want to talk about the backlash but. before we do I just want to understand. what the police departments are actually. using these cameras for and how they are. being used. So can you just describe a. little bit the mechanics of this? So. what these cameras allow police forms to. do is essentially to track cars. Most of.

the departments keep the photos of the. cars for 30 days. That's the default. that Flock has in place. And so if. somebody goes missing or if there is. some kind of crime that is committed and. you know the car associated with the. crime, you can go looking for it. You. can see where it's been. you can see. where it's gone. You can also set up. alerts. So, if there is a car you're. looking for, it'll shoot up an alert to. any police that are using this network, whether it's in your community or in a.

different community. Basically, any. crime that's committed using a car, this. system might be helpful with them, which. is a lot of crimes. A lot of crimes use. cars. >> Yeah. I mean, it's helpful for tracking. down stolen cars, finding a missing. person. I mean, we've all gotten those. Amber alerts on our text messages where. it says that. >> Yeah. like look around for this random. Nissan Ultima with this license plate. It's a lot more effective just to send. that message out through a bunch of. cameras that have their eyes on the road. to find that car. Okay, so by this point.

in the story, these cameras are. everywhere. The company's grown super. fast. I just want to make sure I. understand the legality of this. Does. Flock need anybody's permission to put. these cameras up on streets or do they. just put these things up and then sell. the data? This is actually an issue for. the company and I talked about that with. the CEO. You know, in the early days. when they were working with neighborhood. associations, it was private streets. They could just put them up. As they. started working with police, they still. had this kind of move fast and break.

thing Silicon Valley approach where they. would just go out and throw these cheap. cameras up. And that got them in trouble. with departments of transportation where. you are supposed to get a permit to be, you know, putting cameras in poles up on. public roads. And so, um, Langley told. me, "Yes, they made some mistakes, but. now they have figured out the right way. to do this.". >> It's so interesting to think about how. fast this company has grown when this is. effectively just like a camera on a. stick. Yes, it is just a camera on a. stick, but now it's 120,000 cameras on.

sticks and they're all connected. And. that is really what makes Flock so. valuable. It's that they're building. this network. It's eyes on the road. across the whole country. And that's. something we really haven't had before. at this scale. And that's why police. want to work with this company. Okay. So, this isn't just about necessarily. your local police department being able. to track your car. This is about one. camera. I don't know what talking to.

another camera. Like, just talk about. that network for a second so we can. understand why that makes this different. than just something that might only. affect an isolated area. So local police. departments when they sign up for Flock. essentially set their privacy settings. They can decide if they want their. network of cameras to only be available. to their department or if they want to. be able to make it available to the. whole state or the whole nation. And. it's reciprocal. If you want to be able. to search all the cameras in your state. or all the cameras in the whole country, you have to grant access to your.

cameras. I asked Lingley about this and. he said the vast majority of their. customers opt in for the national. network. Like that is what's appealing. that you have eyes on the road. everywhere not just in your community. but in your whole state in your whole. country because as they put it you know. crime doesn't respect borders. >> Mhm. And flock gave me an example of why. this is useful. In one case, there was. somebody who had made a threat against. an event in New Orleans. And for some. reason, police had a car associated with.

this threat, and the person was based in. North Carolina, but when they picked him. up, he was in Florida. And so, this. involves, you know, three different. communities, three different states. And. the only way they said, you know, you. can really solve this crime is with. these cameras that are everywhere. >> So, [clears throat] basically a big. difference. It sounds like what you're. saying is that preflock or without. flock, some police chief in one district. might have to figure out who to call in. another district, ask them to run a. report and presumably that takes longer. than going to a database on your.

computer and typing in a license plate. in this case. Right. Exactly. And this. is really fast. They said, you know, it. basically comes off their cameras and. within seconds it's in the database. >> And it really is a pretty simple tool. You know, there is a search page where. you are supposed to enter the case. number, the crime that you're looking. into, and then you can either put in the. license plate number, or you can put in. a description of the car, you know, the. color or if it has damage or bumper.

sticker. Then you hit search, and it. will pop up a grid of photos of the. backs of people's cars. It will say. where the photo was taken when and which. agencies cameras took it. It's pretty. simple, but police say it makes their. jobs much easier. The CEO of Flock says. that the company helped solve more than. a million crimes last year. I don't have. the reporting to back that up, but. police chiefs did tell us that it is.

really a useful tool for solving crimes. [music]. But this makes it really easy to track. Americans. [music]. And you know, we're all in the database. if you're driving cars in the 49 states. where they have their cameras. And it's. not just people who have committed. [music] crimes. And that is just making. people very, very uncomfortable that.

this is too powerful a tool that is. surveilling too many of us. [music]. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Okay. Okay, so Kashmir, I understand. from what you're saying that people are. upset about these cameras and have a lot. of different privacy concerns, but I. wonder how much of these concerns are. theoretical at this point or are critics.

saying that there's already evidence. that these cameras have been misused? Yeah, one of the cases that has gotten. the most attention and was originally. reported by 404 media was a woman who. was suspected of self-administering an. abortion in Texas and an officer. searched flock cameras to see where she. had traveled if she was out of state to. try to track her down. M. >> there have been examples of police.

officers abusing their access to these. systems to track exes or love interests. or romantic partners. >> Oh my god. >> And one of the kind of big concerns has. been how immigration officers are using. these cameras for immigration. enforcement. You mean like ICE like. trying to track down people they're. trying to deport? Yes. ICE trying to. track down people that they want to. deport. And it's not just civil. libertarians that are criticizing this. Cities themselves have been surprised.

that their cameras have been accessed. for immigration enforcement. So some. cities have paused or canceled their. contracts with Flock after discovering. that. >> because they basically didn't realize. that when they were making it available. nationally that meant they're making. available to federal law enforcement. like ICE. That feels a little bit. surprising though Kashmir because you. said earlier that they signed something. saying like their databases are. searchable. So were you surprised that. they were surprised? I don't know that. just feels a little bit strange. Yeah, I.

mean Flock says that they don't have a. contract with ICE for one and the way. that this is happening is actually ICE. agents are partnering with local police. departments and then searching the. networks of cameras that they have. access to. So, it's not necessarily the. police department that they're. partnering with that is upset over this. It's the police department in another. city that is learning that ICE is using. them. Yes. This is kind of a concept. called worked privacy where it's hard to. protect your own privacy. Since they're.

sharing it with others, they have to. trust that other agencies are using the. cameras appropriately. And this actually. comes up on the sign-in page. There's. kind of this popup. there's a. click-through screen where you have to. say, "I acknowledge that in these states. I can't do searches related to. reproductive care and in these other. states I can't do searches related to. immigration." So, it sounds like a. little bit of an honor system. I mean, I'm curious what else the company has. told you about the safeguards it has in.

place to prevent misuse because I don't. know. I just can't imagine how effective. that actually is if you're a bad actor. and, you know, operating in bad faith. Flock says that they only allow abortion. related searches in states where. abortion is illegal. Um, they also say. that they have an audit system in place. that alerts departments if officers are. doing unusual searching that doesn't. look like it's related to an official.

investigation. So they do say they have. some safeguards in place, but at the end. of the day, it's up to the police. department to use this tool. appropriately. >> Flock doesn't consider itself the one. that should make the rules for how these. cameras should work. It says, you know, it's just technology company offering a. service and it's up to the United States. to decide how these cameras should be. used. Why should we put restraints on. our own growth when there's no law. preventing us from growing as.

[clears throat] fast as we can? Right? They're just a company offering a. service and it's not up to them to make. the rules. That's up to lawmakers. That's up to regulators. Okay. I'm. really starting to get a sense, Cashmir, from the picture that you're painting of. why people are maybe upset. I mean, this. company really does not seem to be doing. a ton to block bad actors from abusing. its platforms. I mean, I'm sure that it. would say that it is and it has pop-ups, but as you described, this is an honor. system with no government intervention. or regulation. It seems like the.

government has not caught up to this. technology, and that sounds like. something that would be concerning for. people. Yes, there is this growing. backlash from citizens. One of the first. ways this manifested was in the form of. a website called Dlock. DFlock, like D. Flock. It's a crowdsource map of where. these cameras, these license plate. readers are that anyone can contribute. to. And the idea is that you should know. how many are in your community and where.

they are. And now they've mapped over a. 100,000 cameras made by Flock and other. companies. And you started seeing some. people cutting down cameras. [music]. The vandal cut down a flock pole, spray. painted the lens black, and cut the. wiring. >> Like spray painting them, vandalizing. them. Several cameras were ripped from. their mounts and smashed. >> Allegedly using a shotgun to take out. flock cameras. Both cameras were later.

found in a nearby canal. >> There have been videos of [music] people. demonstrating how to like get rid of the. cameras, how to destroy them. With their. saw wrapped in a trash bag, [music] they. approach from behind the camera's line. of sight and tear right through this. black aluminum alloy post. >> People have showed up at city council. hearings. [music]. >> In Free America, where I go during the. day is my business. >> Saying, "I am not happy about this. >> We want everything out of our city. Get.

out of the police state. We're being. tracked everywhere we go." And y'all are. just saying, "You're being tracked. anyway." There was another super viral. video of this one guy in San Diego who. went to the city council hearing dressed. up as Darth Vader. >> The emperor is a fan of flock. >> Saying how much he loved flock cameras. [laughter] Oh my god. >> And we must continue utilizing [music]. flock technologies so that we can follow. and surveil the rebel scum.

Some citizens have sued their cities or. their towns saying that these cameras. are unconstitutional. Oh wow. They're. unconstitutional because because they. are capturing everyone's movements. >> Um even if you've done nothing wrong for. most places, it's capturing the last 30. days of people driving around on the. roads. And that this is something that. the fourth amendment is supposed to. protect us against. The fourth amendment.

that is the amendment that prohibits. unlawful searches and seizures. Just. explain one beat further cash why that. is relevant to these cameras this. network this idea of capturing people. who haven't done anything wrong. >> Yeah. I mean, the idea behind the fourth. amendment, if we go back to the founding. fathers, is that they didn't like that, [laughter]. you know, royal officers would just go. through everybody's houses, rifle. through their drawers looking for. evidence that they were involved in. treason or rebellion. The Fourth.

Amendment was created so that police. have to have a reason to think that. someone has done something wrong before. they collect information about them. But. that's not what these cameras are. They're everywhere. They're collecting. data on hundreds of millions of people. They get billions of license plate. reads. And so some of these lawsuits. have said, "You can't do this." And so. far, those lawsuits have not been. successful. But in some of the rulings, the judges have said, "Well, if these.

cameras were more ubiquitous, then yes, there would be fourth amendment. concerns. Basically, they're not. widespread enough yet." Wait, that's so. interesting, though. Like who gets to. decide what the threshold is for. ubiquity for these cameras? Like who. gets to decide, okay, this is the level. of penetration that would be violative. of the fourth amendment. Yeah. I mean, judges decide. Maybe one day the Supreme. Court will decide. When I talk to. attorneys in the civil liberty space,

they say, "We're already there." Judges. just don't understand how many of these. cameras there are and howorked they are. I'm just so curious what evidence the. judges are looking at to say no, this is. not actually broad enough. As you said, 40% of police departments are using. this, billions of hits a day, what is. the standard that they're using? So, in. Norfolk, Virginia, where one of these. lawsuits was filed, the city now has 172. flock cameras installed around the city. And the judge said that's not enough.

But the judge didn't say, "What is the. number where it's too much? Is it, you. know, every block? Is it every street? What level of coverage hits that. threshold? That hasn't been spelled out. yet. It sounds a little arbitrary at. this point. Welcome to the law, Rachel. [laughter]. [gasps]. Especially around privacy. I mean, privacy is so hard to define. You know, what is an unreasonable search? That is.

something that is always getting worked. out. But what the court has found in the. past is that, you know, police can't. just put a tracker on someone's car, for. example, even though they're on public. roads and a police officer could follow. them. That this idea of using automated. means to track somebody continually. violates Fourth Amendment. And what. lawyers I talked to argue is, well, we're doing the same thing now, but. instead of putting trackers on people's. cars, we're just putting these cameras. everywhere on the roads. We have talked.

a lot in this conversation about people. who are worried about privacy, but there. are also a lot of people in this country. who are really worried about crime. Like. I don't even know to the extent that. these two groups of people are distinct. which one of them is bigger. So I wonder. how we're supposed to think about flock. when we hold up these two kind of. competing concerns against one another, right? People who are really worried. maybe more so about getting their. license plate readers read versus people. who are like, I don't want crime in my. communities. I'm more worried about. crime than I am of somebody taking a.

picture of my car. I mean, that is the. legal question here and kind of the. societal question. What degree of. liberty do we want to give up for. security? We'll never have perfect. liberty. We'll never have perfect. security. What has struck me about the. reaction to flaw cameras is just how. bipartisan it is. people on the left and. the right have objections to these. cameras. It's kind of across the board.

And so that's been really striking. One. of the experts I talked to said there is. a version of this where we could just. have the cameras give alerts and not be. tracking us for 7 days or 30 days or 5. years in the case of some states that. say you have to retain, you know, the. photos of these cars for that long. I. mean, this is a question of every. surveillance technology, right? If you. had perfect surveillance, we could live. in a country with very little crime, but.

it would certainly violate some of our. constitutional principles. I feel like most of my adult life, which. has existed mostly in the post Edward. Snowden era, people have been talking. about privacy and surveillance. And for all of those concerns though, technology just marches on. Like it. feels like even though we might be. worried about this kind of stuff, we've. given up a lot of privacy in exchange. for convenience. Like that does feel. like the world we are living in. But I. do feel like this issue with flock, it. feels like it is hitting a different.

kind of nerve. And part of me wonders. why that is. Like is it because of the. physicality of being able to see a. camera knowing that it is tracking my. car, my person? I guess like the fact. that you can go out and break one. How. much of that cash do you think is part. of why we're seeing so much anger about. this system? I think the physicality does play a role. here. You know, so many of our privacy. concerns are around invisible tracking. and data collection that happens online.

and this time you can actually see it. and how and where it's happening. But I. also think there are bigger issues at. play here. Part of it is that private companies. [music] have stepped in to do. surveillance that previously the. government would have been forbidden. from doing. And I saw this before. covering Clear View AI, this company. [music] that scraped everybody's photos. to build a facial recognition app that.

police could use to identify people. >> Sure. [music]. >> It's the same thing with Flock. You. know, they've created this huge database. and then they sell it to law enforcement. so they can just use it without getting. a warrant. And it's also just this growing amount. of technology. There's so many new ways. to [music] track us, to observe us, to. create these running databases that are. so huge. And [music] I think this one. kind of very slowly crept up on us. It.

was like people weren't paying enough. attention to Flock. And then all of a. sudden [music] we realized there's. 120,000 cameras across the country. And. as one source put it to me, [music]. we're just sleepwalking into this. surveillance state where it's just too. easy to know everything [music] about. us. Cashmere Hill, thank you so much. You're. welcome.

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. Today, [music] the US struck Iran on. Sunday for the first time in a month. According to US Central Command, American [music] forces attacked two.

Iranian rocket launchers on an island in. the straight of Hormuz. It appeared to be a limited attack. rather than a large-scale bombing, but. Iran has [music] stated it will. retaliate, raising the risk of continued. military strikes. [music]. Today's episode was produced by Jack. Dadoro, Shannon Lynn, and Eric with help. from Adrien Hurst and Alex [music]. Stern. It was edited by Chris Hel with. help from Michael Benis and Brendan.

Clinkenberg and contains music by Pat. McCusker [music] and Dan Powell. Our. theme music is by Wonderly. This episode. [music] was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. [music] That's it for the Daily. I'm. Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.