How Biden Adopted Trump’s Trade War With China

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily Donald Trump upended Decades of. American policy when he started a trade. war with. China many thought that President Biden. would reverse those policies instead. he's stepping them up today my colleague.

Jim tankersley. [Music]. explains it's Monday May. [Music]. 13th Jim it's very nice to have you in. the studio it's so great to be here. thank you so much so we are going to. talk today about something I find very. interesting and I know you've been. following we're in the middle of a. presidential campaign you are an.

economics reporter looking at these two. candidates and you've been trying to. understand how Trump and Biden are. thinking about our number one economic. rival and that is China as we know Trump. has been very loud and very clear about. his views on China what about Biden well. no one is going to accuse President. Biden of being as loud as former. president Trump right um but I think. he's actually been fairly clear in a way. that might surprise a lot of people. about how he sees economic competition.

with China we're going after China in. the wrong way China is stealing. intellectual property China is Biden has. kind of surprisingly sounded a lot in. his own Joe Biden way like Trump they're. not competing they're cheating they're. cheating and we've seen the damage here. in America you know he has been very. clear that he thinks China is cheating. in trade the bottom line is I want Fair. competition with China not conflict.

and we're in a stronger position to win. the economic competition at 21st century. against China or anywhere else because. we're investing in America and American. workers again. finally and maybe the most surprising. things from a policy perspective is just. how much Biden has built on top of the. anti-china moves that Trump made and. really is sort of on the verge of his. own sort of trade war with China. interesting so remind us Jim what did.

Trump do when he actually came into. office we of course remember Trump. really talking about China and just. banging that drum hard during the. campaign but remind us what he actually. did when he came into office yeah it's. it's really instructive to start with. the campaign right because Trump is. talking about China in some very. specific ways we have a $500 billion. deficit trade deficit with China we're. going to turn it around and we have the. cards don't forget they're ripping us. off stealing our jobs they're using our.

country as a piggy bank to rebuild China. and many other countries are doing the. same thing so we're losing our good jobs. so many the economic context here is the. United States has lost a couple million. jobs in what was called the China shock. of the early 2000s and Trump is tapping. into that but when the Chinese come in. and they want to make great trade deals. and they make the best trade deals and. not anymore when I'm there we turn it. around folks we turn it around we and. what promising as president is that he's.

going to bring those jobs back I'll be. the greatest jobs president that God. ever created I'll take them back from. China from Japan from and not just any. jobs like good paying manufacturing jobs. all of it clothes shoes steel all of. these jobs that have been lost that. American workers particularly in the. industrial Midwest used to do Trump's. going to bring them back with policy. meant to rebalance the trade.

relationship with China to get a better. deal with China right so he's saying. China is eating our lunch and has been. for decades that's the reason why. Factory workers in rural North Carolina. don't have work it's those guys and I'm. going to change that right and he likes. to say it's because our leaders didn't. cut the right deal with them so I'm. going to make a better deal and to get a. better deal you need leverage so a year. into his presidency he starts taking. steps to amass leverage with China so. what does that look.

like just an hour ago surrounded by a. handpicked group of Steel Workers. president Trump revealed he was not. bluffing it starts with tariffs tariffs. are taxes that the government imposes on. Imports two key Global Imports into. America now face a major new barrier. today I'm defending America's national. security by placing tariffs on Foreign. imports of Steel and aluminum and in. this case it's imports from a lot of.

different countries but particularly. China we take you straight to the White. House of the president United States. announcing new trade tariffs against. China let's listen it this has been long. in the making you've heard many so Trump. just starts in 2018 this series of. tariffs that he's imposing on all sorts. of things washing machines solar panels. steel aluminum I went to Delaware to a. lighting store at that time I remember. where where basically everything they. sold came from China and was sub to the.

Trump tariffs because that's where. lighting was made now hundreds of. billions of dollars of Chinese Goods now. start falling under these Trump tariffs. the Chinese of course don't take this. line down right China says it is not. afraid of a trade war with the US and. it's fighting back against President. Trump with its own tariffs on us Goods. they do their own retaliatory tariffs. Now American exports to China cost more. for Chinese consumers and boom all of. the sudden we are in the midst of a. full-blown trade war between the United.

States and. Beijing right and that trade war was. kind of a shock right because for. decades politicians had avoided that. kind of policy like it was the consensus. of the political class in the United. States that there should not be tariffs. like that it should be free trade and. Trump just came in and blew up the. consensus yeah as spr I may have. mentioned this once or 700 times before. in this program but I talked to lot of. economists in my job oh really yeah it's.

weird I talked to a lot of economists. and um in 2018 when this started there. were very very very few economists of of. any political persuasion who thought. that imposing all these tariffs were a. good idea right Republican economists in. particular this is antithetical to how. they think about the world which is sort. of low taxes free trade and even. Democratic economists who thought you. know they had some problems with the way. free trade had been conducted did not. think that Trump like I'm going to get a.

better deal approach was going to work. and so there was just a lot of criticism. at the time and a lot of politicians. really didn't like it a lot of Democrats. many Republicans and it all added up to. just a real whoo uh I don't think this. is going to. work so that begs the question did it. well it depends on what you mean by work. right uh economically it does not appear. to have achieved what Trump wanted. there's no evidence yet in the best.

economic research that's been done on. this that enormous amounts of. manufacturing jobs came back to the. United States because of Trump's tariffs. there was research for example on the. tariffs on washing machines they appear. to have helped a couple thousand jobs. manufacturing jobs be created in the. United States but they also raised the. price of washing machines for everybody. who bought them by enough that each. additional job that was created by those. tariffs effectively cost consumers like.

$800,000 per job interesting there's. just like lots of evidence that the. sectors Trump was targeting to try to. help here he didn't there just it wasn't. a lot of employment rebound to the. United States but politically it really. worked the terrorists were very popular. they sort of had this effect of showing. voters in those hollowed out. manufacturing areas that like Trump was. on their team you know and and that he. was fighting for them even if they.

didn't see the jobs coming back they. felt like he was standing up for them so. the research suggests this was a Savvy. political move by Trump and in the. process it sort of changes the political. economic landscape in both parties in. the United States right so Trump made. these policies that seemed for many many. years in the American political system. kind of Fringe isolationist you know. economically bad suddenly quite. palatable and even desirable to.

mainstream policy makers yeah suddenly. getting tough on China is something. everyone wants to do across both parties. and so from a political messaging. standpoint being tough on China is now. where the mainstream is but at the same. time there's still big disagreement over. whether Trump is getting tough on China. in the right way whether he's actually. being effective at changing the trade. relationship with China right remember.

that Trump was imposing these tariffs as. a way to get leverage for a better deal. with China well he gets a deal of sorts. actually with the Chinese government. which includes some things about tariffs. and also China agreeing to buy some. products from the United States Trump. spins it as this huge win but nobody. else really including Republicans acts. like Trump has solved the problem that. Trump himself has identified this deal.

is not enough to make everybody go well. everything's great with China now we can. move on to the next the next thing China. remains this huge issue and the question. of what is the most effective way to. deal with them is still an animating. force in politics got it so politically. huge win but policy-wise and. economically and fundamentally the. problem of China still very much. unresolved absolutely so then Biden. comes in what does Biden do does he keep.

the tariffs on Biden comes to office and. there remains this real pressure from. economists to roll back what they. consider to be the ineffective parts of. Trump's trade policy that includes many. of the tariffs and it's especially true. at a time when almost immediately after. Biden takes office inflation spikes and. so Americans are paying a lot of money. for products and there's this pressure. on Biden including from inside his. administration. to roll back some of the China tariffs.

to give Americans some relief on. prices and Biden considers. this but he doesn't do. it he doesn't reverse Trump's tariff. policy in the end he's actually building. on. [Music]. it we'll be right back. [Music].

so Jim you said that Biden is actually. building on Trump's anti-china policy. what exactly does that look like so. Biden Builds on the Trump China policy. in three key ways but he does it with a. really specific goal that I just want. you to keep in mind as we talk about all. this which is that Biden isn't just. trying to beat China.

on everything he's not trying to cut a. better deal Biden is trying to beat. China in a specific race to own the. Clean Energy Future clean energy yeah so. keep that in mind clean energy an. animating force behind all of the things. Biden does with China is that Biden. wants to beat China on what he thinks. are the jobs of the future and that's. green technology got it okay so what. does he do first okay thing number one. let's talk about the.

he does not roll them back and actually. he builds on them for years for the most. part he just lets the tariffs be his. administration reviews them and it's. only now this week when his. administration is going to actually act. on the tariffs and what they're going to. do is raise some of them they're going. to raise them on strategic Green Tech. things like electric vehicles in order. to make them more expensive and I think.

it's important to know the backdrop here. which is since Biden has taken office. China has started flooding Global. markets with really lowcost green. technologies solar panels electric. vehicles are the two really big ones and. Biden's AIDS are terrified that those. Imports are going to wash over the. United States and basically wipe out. American automakers solar panel. manufacturers that essentially if.

Americans can just buy super cheap stuff. from China they're not going to buy it. from American factories those factories. are going to go out of business right so. Biden's goal of you know manufacturing. jobs and clean energy China is really. threatening that by dumping all these. products on the American Market exactly. and so what he wants to do is protect. those factories with tariffs and that. means. increasing the tariffs that Trump put on. electric vehicles in hopes that American.

consumers will find them too expensive. to buy but doesn't that go against. Biden's goal of clean energy and things. better for the environment I mean you. know lots of mass Market electric. vehicles into the United States would. seem to kind of advance that goal and. here he's saying no you can't come in. right because Biden isn't just trying to. reduce emissions at all costs right he. wants to reduce emissions while boosting. American manufacturing jobs he doesn't. want China to get a monopoly in these.

areas and he's also in particular. worried about the politics of lost. American manufacturing jobs so Biden. does not want to just let you buy. cheaper Chinese Technologies even if. that means reducing emissions he wants. to boost American manufacturing of those. things to compete with China which. brings us to our second thing that Biden. has done okay to build on Trump's China. policy which is that Biden has started. to act like the Chinese government in.

particular areas by just showering. American manufacturers with subsidies I. see so dumping government money into. American businesses yes tax incentives. direct grants this is a way that China. has in the past decades built its. manufacturing dominance is with State. support for factories right Biden is. trying to do that in particular targeted. Industries including electric vehicles.

solar power wind power semiconductors. Biden has passed a bunch of legislation. that just. showers those sectors with incentives. and government support in hopes of. growing up much faster American industry. got it so basically Biden trying to beat. China at his own game yeah he's. essentially using tariffs to build a. fortress right around American industry. so that he can. the troops to fight the clean energy.

battle with China and the troops being. American companies yes it's like we're. going to give them protection. protectionist policy in order to you. know get up to size get up to strength. as an Army in this battle for clean. energy dominance against the Chinese got. it so he's trying to build up the. Fortress what's the third thing Biden. does you mentioned three things Biden. does not want the United States going it. alone against China okay he's trying to. build an International Coalition wealthy.

countries and some other emerging. countries that are going to take on. China and try to stop the Chinese from. using their trade Playbook to take over. all these new emerging industrial. markets but Jim why like what does the. US get from bringing our allies into. this trade War why does the US want that. some of this really is about stopping. China from Gaining access to New Markets.

it's like if you put the lowcost Chinese. exports on a boat and it's going around. the world looking for a dock to stop and. offload the stuff and sell it Biden. wants barriers up at every possible port. and he wants factories in those places. that are competing with the Chinese and. a crucial fact to know here is that the. United States and Europe they are behind. China when it comes to clean energy. technology the Chinese government has.

invested a lot more than America and. Europe in building up its industrial. capacity for clean energy so America and. its allies want to deny China dominance. of those markets and to build up their. own access to them and they're behind so. they got to get going it's like they're. in a race and they're trailing yeah it's. an economic race right to own these. industries and it's that Global. emissions race they also want to be. bringing down fossil fuel emissions f. faster than they currently are and this.

is their plan. right so I guess Jim the question in my. mind is Trump effectively broke the seal. right he started all of these tariffs he. started this trade war with China but he. did it in this kind of Jackhammer. non-targeted way and it didn't really. work. economically now Biden is taking it a. step. further but the question is is his. effort here going to work. the answer to whether it's going to work.

really depends on what your goals are. right and Biden and Trump have very. different goals if Trump wins the White. House back he has made very clear that. his goal is to try to rip the United. States trade relationship with China. even more than he already has he just. wants less trade with China and more. stuff of all types made in the United. States that that used to be made in in. China that's a very ult goal but it's.

not Biden's goal Biden's goal is that he. wants America to make more stuff in. these targeted Industries and there is. real skepticism from free market. economists that his industrial policies. will work on that but there's a lot of. enthusiasm for it from a new strain of. democratic economists in particular who. believe that the only chance Biden has. to make that work is by pulling all of. these levers. by doing the big subsidies and by.

putting up the tariffs that you have to. have both the troops training and the. wall around them yeah and if it's going. to work he has to build on the Trump. policies and so I guess you're asking. will it work it may be dependent upon. just how far he's willing to go on the. subsidies and the barriers there's a. chance of it yeah so Jim at the highest. level you know whatever the economic. outcome here. it strikes me that these moves by Biden.

are pretty remarkably different from the. policies of the democratic party over. the decades I mean really going in the. opposite direction right I mean I'm. thinking of Bill Clinton and NAFTA in. the 1990s you know free trade was the. real Central Mantra of the democratic. party really of both parties yeah and. and Biden is a real break from Clinton. Clinton was the one who actually signed. the law that really opened up trade with. China and and Biden a break from that. he's a break from even President Obama.

when he was Vice President Biden is. doing something different he's breaking. from that democratic tradition and he's. building on what Trump did but with some. throwback elements to it from like the. Roosevelt administration and the. Eisenhower Administration this is this. Grand American tradition of industrial. policy that gave us the space race and. the interstate highway system it's the. idea of using the power of the federal. government to build up specific. industrial capacities it was invogue for.

a time it fell out of fashion and was. sort of replaced by this idea that the. government should get out of the way and. you let the free market Drive Innovation. and now that industrial policy idea is. back in Vogue and Biden is doing it so. it isn't just a shift or an evolution. it's actually a return to big government. spending of the 30s and the 40s and the. 50s of American industrialism of that. era so kind of what goes around comes.

around yeah and it's it's a return to. that older economic theory with new. elements and it's in part because of the. almost jealousy that American policy. makers have of China and the success. that it's had building up its own. industrial base but it's also has this. political element to it it's in part. animated by the success that Trump had. making China an issue with workingclass. American. voters you didn't have to lose your job. to China to feel like China was a a.

standin for the forces that have taken. away good paying middle class jobs from. American workers who expected those jobs. to be there and so Trump tapped into. that and Biden is trying to tap into. that and the political incentives are. pushing every future American president. to do more of that so I think we are. going to see even more of this going. forward and that's why we're in such an. interesting moment right now.

so we're going to see more fortresses. more fortresses more troops more. [Music]. money Jim thank you you're. [Music]. welcome we'll be right. back here's what else you should know. today intense fighting between Hamas. Fighters and Israeli troops raged and. parts of Northern Gaza over the weekend.

an area where Israel had declared Hamas. defeated earlier in the war only to see. the group reconstitute in the power. vacuum that was left. behind the persistent lawlessness raised. concerns about the future of Gaza among. American officials Secretary of State. Anthony blinkin said onf Face the Nation. on Sunday that the return of Hamas to. the north left him concerned that. Israeli victories there would be quote. not sustainable and said that Israel had.

not presented the United States with any. plan for when the war. ends and the United Nations Aid agency. in Gaza said early on Sunday that about. 300,000 people had fled from Rafa over. the past week the city in The Enclave. southernmost tip where more than a. million displaced gin had sought shelter. from Israeli bombardments. elsewhere the UN made the announcement.

hours after the Israeli government. issued new evacuation orders in Rafa. deepening fears that the Israeli. military Was preparing to invade the. city despite International. warnings today's episode was produced by. Nina Feldman Carlos predo Sydney Harper. and Luke vender plug it was edited by MJ. Davis Lynn Brendan clink BG and Lisa. Chow contains original music by Diane. Wong Maran Lozano and Dan Powell and was.

engineered by Alyssa Moxley our theme. music is by Jim brunberg and Ben Lanser. of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina tavernes see you tomorrow. [Music].