‘He Knew’: What Epstein Said About Trump in New Emails

From The New York Times, >> [music]. >> I'm Rachel Abrams and this is The Daily. >> [music]. >> Thousands of pages of newly released. emails between Jeffrey Epstein and his. friends and [music] associates have put. the financiers relationship with. President Trump back into the spotlight. [music]. Today, my colleagues David Enrich and. Michael Gold on what these new documents. tell [music] us and whether they could. trigger the release of the rest of the.

Epstein files. >> [music]. >> It's Thursday, November 13th. So David, you're back on the show to. talk to us about the latest chapter in. this ongoing saga about the relationship. between Donald Trump and Jeffrey. Epstein. And today, Wednesday, it seems. like there was a very meaningful update. to our understanding about that. relationship. But can you just break it.

down for us how significant were the. revelations that came out today? Extremely significant, I would say. Okay, walk us through what happened. So we woke up this morning to the news. that Democrats on the House Oversight. Committee had released three emails from. Jeffrey Epstein's email account in which. he and others were talking about Donald. Trump. And the emails appeared to show. that Epstein. recognized that he had some important. information about his relationship with.

Trump and Trump's relationship with. women or girls. And. just as we were all starting to kind of. decipher the cryptic wording in those. messages, the Republicans on the House. Oversight Committee one-upped their. Democratic counterparts and released. additional Epstein-related emails, many. of which are also about Donald Trump or. at least mentioned Donald Trump. And so. we've been spending. what feels like an eternity today going. through these emails one by one, reading. them, trying to make sense of them, and.

trying to understand their implications. for Trump and his administration. Okay, let's go one by one and start with the. beginning of the day, the first emails. that you saw. Can you tell us what those. emails were? Sure, I can read them to. you. I've got them in front of me if you. want me to. Yes, please. Okay, so. there's three of them. The first is from. April of 2011. And this is a time, just. contextually, when Epstein had only. recently been released from house arrest. as part of his punishment for having.

solicited prostitution from a minor. He's seeking to kind of repair his. reputation and he's thinking about. trying to get his guilty plea. overturned. And he writes to his. long-time associate, Ghislaine Maxwell. >> [snorts]. >> "I want you to realize that the dog that. has not barked is Trump." And then. there's a victim's name redacted. "She. spent hours at my house with him. He has. never once been mentioned.". Ghislaine Maxwell responds, "I have been. thinking about that." Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> And Trump at this point is a reality TV.

star in 2011 who has these vague and. kind of unrealistic presidential. ambitions, but it's a little unclear why. at that point Epstein thought that the. information he had on Trump. was relevant. And so we are all left. wondering exactly what this means. And. just so I understand, "The dog that. hasn't barked is Trump" means or implies. that there's some kind of information. that hasn't been made public. And so. this email is interesting because it. suggests that. Epstein knows things about Trump. Do I.

have that right? As best we can tell, yes, that is right. Epstein appears to. believe that he has some information on. Trump that has not yet become public and. that could be useful to Epstein. Or at. least he's trying to portray that he. does. Yes, that's right. So what's the next. email? So the next email is from December of. 2015 and it's between Epstein and a. journalist named Michael Wolff, who is. quite a prominent journalist who had. clearly spent a lot of time with. Epstein. And this takes place right as.

CNN is planning to air a debate. involving the Republican presidential. candidates, including Trump. And Wolff, he says he hears that CNN is going to. ask Trump about his relationship with. Epstein. Epstein then responds, "If we. were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be?". Wolff then responds to that in a very. telling way, which is, "I think you. should let him hang himself. If he says. he hasn't been on the plane or to the. house, then that gives you a valuable PR.

and political currency. You can hang him. in a way that potentially generates a. positive benefit for you. Or if it. really looks like he could win, you. could save him, generating a debt." Mhm. And so he's floating this idea that. Epstein has enough of the kind of the. goods on Donald Trump that he can almost. cultivate him as someone who's in his. debt and that he can then presumably. cash that debt in at a relevant point in. the future. Michael Wolff, of course, is a. journalist who's authored multiple books. about President Trump. What do you make.

of the fact that it seems like he is. giving Epstein PR advice in this moment? This is not the way that journalists. traditionally operate. We regard sources. as sources, not as clients. And it. appears that he is giving not just some. advice to Epstein, but really kind of. sitting alongside him, coaching him on. how he can use information that he has. on a major party presidential candidate. as leverage. To say this is a violation.

of traditional journalistic ethics and. standards would be an understatement. Aside from the questionable journalistic. ethics of Michael Wolff, this exchange. seems to suggest something similar to. the first email you read, right? That. Epstein has something on Trump or at. least is trying to show that he does. But just to be clear, we don't know. what, if anything, Epstein actually had. over Trump. We know that he was making. it seem like he had some kind of. leverage, but we don't actually know.

whether he had any information that. Trump would have legitimately been. concerned about, right? Well, I'm not. sure that is right. Look, the. relationship between Epstein and Trump, we know a lot about it now in 2025, but. back a decade ago, we knew next to. nothing about it. And what we now know. is that Trump in the '80s and '90s and. into the early 2000s was pretty good. friends with Epstein and they were. moving in the same social circles. They. were both pursuing at points some of the. same young women. So you know, at this. point in Trump's career in 2015, he is.

obviously very well known, but a lot of. the things that have come to define him. and his relationships with women, such. as the Carroll allegations or the Access. Hollywood tape, all of that stuff was in. the future at this point. And so I think. from Epstein's perspective, the fact. that he has a lot of experience having. been around Trump and seeing him. interacting with women, I think that. that is the kind of thing that Epstein. sitting there in 2015 can see as. potentially very useful information that.

he could use to gain some sort of. leverage over this guy who is all of the. sudden a leading candidate to become. president of the United States. Okay, tell us about the final email that. House Democrats released on Wednesday. morning. Yeah, so this one is maybe the most. cryptic of the bunch. This is another. email from Epstein to Michael Wolff. It's written in early 2019, so several. months before Epstein was arrested for. the final time. And what we see in the.

email is there's apparently a victim's. name, which is redacted. Then it says. Mar-a-Lago. Then there's something else that's. redacted. And then it says, "Trump said. he asked me to resign. Never a member. ever.". "Of course he knew about the girls as he. asked Ghislaine to stop.". And [snorts] so there's a certain amount. here that we know contextually what he's. referring to. And Trump has said. publicly that he severed ties with. Epstein because Epstein, quote, "stole a. girl from Mar-a-Lago." And that's a.

reference to Virginia Giuffre, who was a. spa assistant at Mar-a-Lago who became. one of Epstein's victims. And Trump has said repeatedly that he. threw Epstein out as a member of. Mar-a-Lago. So this is very clearly. Epstein telling Wolff, for reasons that. are not entirely clear, that Trump had full awareness of what. Epstein was doing and the fact, apparently the fact that he and his. associates were recruiting young women. and perhaps girls from Mar-a-Lago into.

their sex trafficking operation. Is. Epstein basically saying here Trump is. lying because I was never a member to. begin with of Mar-a-Lago, so therefore, if he says that he kicked me out, that's. not true? >> saying that, but to me the the bigger. sentence is, "Of course he knew about. the girls." Mhm. And obviously, Trump. has denied having any knowledge of the. sex trafficking operation. And so this. would appear to be. a refutation of that argument. Now, again, it's very important to remember.

that Epstein is a notorious liar and. manipulator. And so we really just don't. know if this is true, but it clearly. shows that Epstein is telling other. people that Trump had knowledge about. what was going on. And again, it's not. clear why he was telling this to Michael. Wolff. We've obviously tried to speak to. Michael Wolff and everyone else who were. writing about in these emails today. Wolff has not responded to our requests. today. Others have also not responded. and some have just declined to comment. You mentioned Ghislaine Maxwell, who is.

currently serving prison time for. helping Epstein with his sex trafficking. operation. And earlier this year, she. told the Justice Department that she had. never seen Donald Trump in a, quote, "inappropriate setting.". Does anything in these emails contradict. that statement? I'm not sure I would use the word. contradict, but there's certainly some. tension here. I mean, in the 2011 email. that Epstein sent to Maxwell, so he. refers to an unknown victim as having. spent hours at my house, meaning. Epstein's house, with Trump. And Maxwell.

responds to that, "I have been thinking. about that." And that certainly implies. that Maxwell knew about something that. was going on with Trump. There are. potentially some, I guess, plausible. explanations in which that does not. contradict what she said this summer to. the Justice Department, but there. certainly on their face does seem to be. some tension. Okay, so you've just walked us through. the three emails released by Democrats. What happened next? What happened next. is that the Republicans on the House. Oversight Committee released, by our.

best count, more than 20,000 pages of. emails from Jeffrey Epstein's Gmail. account. We're, frankly, I would say. we're maybe a third or a quarter of the. way through going through all these. emails. So, I do not know what the. totality of it is going to show, but so. far the main takeaway is that it's. really clear that for years after Trump. severed his ties with Epstein, Epstein was still really focused on. Trump. And it seemed like for at least.

two reasons. One is that he was trying. to hurt Donald Trump. He was disparaging. his businesses. He was disparaging. Trump's character. But secondly, especially in later years, Epstein appeared to think that he had. some potential leverage over Trump at a. time when the federal government, which. was run by Donald Trump, was criminally. investigating Epstein. And so, we see. emails where Epstein is calling Trump a. dope and demented. But we also see.

emails where he is urging his lawyer or. his financial advisor to dig into. Trump's finances. We know from other. reporting that Epstein was constantly. trying to portray himself as having. access to people that maybe he didn't. actually have access to or he wasn't as. close with as he portrayed. And. it seems here in all of these emails. that we've seen so far that he's trying. to leverage the perception of his. proximity to Donald Trump, right? And I. just wonder based on what we know about.

how transactional Epstein was, how much stock should we put into the. way that Epstein is portraying his. relationship to Donald Trump? Well, I don't think anyone should ever. put much stock into what Jeffrey Epstein. says or writes. He is a complete liar. with a really clear pattern of. manipulating people for his own gain and. exaggerating his connections to powerful. people. That said, we have, through our. reporting and other news organizations'. reporting, we've clearly established.

over and over again that Trump and. Epstein were quite close for a period of. time. >> [music]. >> But to me, the takeaway of these emails. is not so much what they reveal about. Epstein's relationship with Trump as. much as they reveal that Epstein, who. was always an opportunist and always. looking for an edge over people, was. doing that here with Trump. He could sense, I think, that the walls. were closing in on him and that his. life, his freedom were on the line. And he was desperate to find any edge,

any advantage he could grab. And one of. those edges was Trump. It was this. long-ago relationship, but it still, in. Epstein's eyes, had value to him as he. tried to evade the criminal justice. system. >> [music]. >> David, thank you so much. Thank you, Rachel. >> [music]. >> After the break, I talked to our. colleague Michael Gold about the fight. on Capitol Hill over the Epstein files.

and the push to release even more. documents. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Michael Gold, thank you so much for. joining us from what looks like a phone. booth on Capitol Hill. Is that where you. are? Yes, I'm in a phone booth, basically. It's a it's a closet, more or.

less. Well, thank you for finding a. quiet space for us. We wanted to talk to. you after we've just talked to David. Enrich about what we learned from these. more than 20,000 pages worth of emails. from Jeffrey Epstein. And I want to ask. you, somebody who's been covering this. saga from Capitol Hill, to explain to us why these emails have. been released and where exactly we are. in the long journey of trying to get all. of the Epstein files released. So, the story here on Capitol Hill.

actually begins months ago in July. And. at the time, a lot of lawmakers here. were very unhappy that the Trump. administration had backtracked, in their. view, on a promise to release the files. And so, two lawmakers, Representative Ro. Khanna, a Democrat from California, and. Thomas Massie, a Republican from. Kentucky, decide that they're going to. introduce a bill that would force the. Justice Department to release the. Epstein files. At the same time, there's a lot of. skepticism that this bill will actually. ever come to a vote. And so, Democrats. on the House Oversight Committee use the.

committee to begin forcing subpoenas on. the Epstein investigation. And it. eventually expands to include. Republicans who want to see additional. subpoenas and are interested in getting. more information released. So, you have. a bill that would force the Justice. Department to release the files and an. investigation coming out of the. Oversight Committee that's a larger. investigation into Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, and how the Trump. administration handled the case. So, just to be clear, there are two. parallel efforts going on here. One is.

to get the DOJ to release the files, and. the other one is from this House. Oversight Committee to get more. information about Jeffrey Epstein and. his relationship to these powerful. figures, including President Donald. Trump. That's right. And one telling. detail, I think, about this whole saga. that gets us to today is that Speaker. Mike Johnson does not want to support. this bill. He opposes a bill that would. force the Trump administration to do. anything on the Epstein files. But as he. is opposing the bill, he points to this. investigation the Oversight Committee is. doing frequently and says, "Well, this.

is the avenue that we need to take if we. want to get full transparency here.". Okay, so the read on this is basically. that Johnson is supportive of the House. Oversight Committee's efforts, but not. supportive of the efforts to force the. DOJ to turn over other documents, right? That's right. And so, because the White. House and Republican leadership are. opposed to this bipartisan bill, Thomas. Massie and Ro Khanna filed what's known. as a discharge petition. And the. shorthand for a discharge petition is. that if 218 members of the House, which.

is a majority of the body, agree on any. one particular issue, they can force the. House to vote on a bill. And so, Speaker Johnson essentially says. we don't need to do this. We don't need. to force a vote that would circumvent. leadership. We can look at the Oversight. Committee and their investigation, and. they'll do the work for us. And what ends up happening is the. Oversight Committee gets all of these. documents from Jeffrey Epstein's estate. And it's the information in those. materials that they end up releasing. today. So, let's just pause for a second. The.

Democrats released three emails first. before this trove of 20,000. So, why did. they choose to take that step? So, if you ask them, they'll tell you. that they got these particular documents. a few days ago. It took them time to go. through and redact information and. decide that these needed to come out. today. That's the stated reason. But I. think there's also political dynamics at. play as there often are here on Capitol. Hill. Today is the day that the House is. voting to end the government shutdown. And House Democrats are really unhappy. with the deal that the Senate made. They.

think it makes them look weak, that they. didn't get what they wanted. And the. release of these emails, intentionally or not, has changed and. shifted the conversation on Capitol Hill. so that the Epstein saga has become the. focus again. But it's very clear that Republicans, President Trump, and the White House all. want to be talking about the fact that. Republicans ended the shutdown without. Democrats having to make major. concessions. And instead, a significant. amount of their time today has been. spent talking about Jeffrey Epstein and. his relationship with President Trump. So, if Republicans had an incentive to.

keep the focus on the end of the. shutdown, why did they then release. 20,000-plus files on Jeffrey Epstein? So, earlier this morning, House. Republicans and the White House argued. that Democrats were cherry-picking. documents and selectively choosing. documents from this trove in order to. present a specific narrative. And so, they released 20,000 documents. from the Epstein estate to make the. point that there's way more in the files. than just these three emails.

Throughout their investigation, House. Republicans have been making the case. that their Epstein investigation is not. just about Trump, but about a host of. political elites and powerful figures, including President Clinton, who they. repeatedly focused on. But as we just learned from David. Enrich, the 20,000 documents did have a. lot in there about President Trump. And. basically just like reinforce the idea. that Epstein was fixated on Trump in. many ways and raise a lot of questions. about the relationship between these two. men. So, if the intent was for. Republicans to detract attention away.

from the singular relationship between. Trump and Epstein, it does not seem like. that, at least today, had that desired. effect. That's right. And I think it was always. going to be hard to change the focus. away from Epstein's relationship with. the president because if you remember. how we got here in the first place is. that the Justice Department, after. promising to release these files and and. insisting that they would release these. files, decided not to. And so, there. were always questions about Trump's. relationship with Epstein. and what might have been in the files. But there was a sense in which today was.

always going to be about Epstein in some. way anyway. How so? So, 7 weeks ago, an. Arizona Democrat named Adeline Grijalva. won a special election to fill a seat. that was left vacant after her father. died in office. And during her campaign, Grijalva said. that as soon as she got to Capitol Hill, one of the first things she would do is. sign on to this discharge petition. And. that is the thing that you mentioned. earlier where if enough people sign on, they can force a vote that bypasses the. speaker on whether or not to release the.

Epstein files, correct? That's right. When Grijalva won, it looked like this. petition might finally succeed. The problem was that when Grijalva won. her election, the House was in recess. and Speaker Mike Johnson refused to see. her until the recess was over, which. would not happen until there was a deal. to end the shutdown. So, obviously. Wednesday was the day that she was going. to be seated, the shutdown was finally. ending. What happens next? So, Speaker. Johnson says that he'll swear Adeline. Grijalva in at 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday.

and that sets a deadline. At this point, the discharge petition has 217. signatures. Grijalva would be the 218th. Of the people on the petition, four of. them are Republicans. That's Thomas. Massie and three Republican women, Nancy. Mace, Lauren Boebert, and Marjorie. Taylor Greene. Essentially, this 4:00 p.m. deadline kicks off a. last-minute pressure campaign by the. White House who had been lobbying these. Republicans for months to pull their. names from the petition. But this doesn't work. They all say. they're going to stay on the petition. and at 4:00 p.m. today, Adeline Grijalva.

gets sworn in and the first thing she. does after she finishes is signs this. petition. So, what happens next? How. quickly might we actually see the DOJ. documents? So, that's one of the. interesting things about this effort. here. You know, theoretically, we could. see a vote on the House floor. sometime in December. It could be. earlier depending on how the speaker. decides to maneuver here. But even if this bill comes to the House. floor and passes in a vote, which it. probably will because it already has the. support of the majority of the House,

the legislation would still have to go. to the Senate, which. might not even ever have to take it up. And if it were to somehow get passed by. the Senate, then it would get sent to. the president who it seems very clear. from his public remarks would probably. veto this and send it back to Congress. So, what you're saying is basically this. could die in the Senate, but even if it. didn't die in the Senate, even if it got. to the president's desk, what would the. point of that be? He's not going to push. this through. Yeah, it's a great question and I think. one of the outstanding things that a lot. of people here are wondering is why the.

White House whipped so hard against this. once it became obvious that this effort. would succeed. I think a lot of this is about politics. It's embarrassing to the White House to. have members of the president's own. party vote for a bill that essentially. rebukes his administration and tries to. compel them to do something that they. insisted they wouldn't do. And because so many on the right have. been clamoring for the release of the. Epstein files, there was always a sense. that if this actually ever came to the. floor, it would not be just a simple. majority vote, but that a lot of.

Republicans would feel like they had no. choice but to support it to keep their. base happy. And that is a difficult position both. for Republicans and for the president to. be in. because it makes it look like the. president is losing favor with members. of his own party. Obviously, there is a long history of. Republicans who go against President. Trump getting defenestrated from. Washington. But Republicans also just lost a bunch. of elections last week. The president's. approval is very low. Lawmakers are very.

aware that Jeffrey Epstein is an issue. that has divided the MAGA movement and. President Trump's supporters and it's an. issue where many of Trump's supporters. want a lot of transparency. So, wouldn't. you expect to see more Republicans. voting to release these documents? I think we will see more Republicans. than the four who have already signed on. to this effort vote to release these. documents. You're right to say that. lawmakers, especially Republicans on. Capitol Hill, are often worried about.

invoking the wrath of the president, especially as we head into midterm. elections and as we head into primary. season. But I think there's a different. and important political calculation. here. On the one hand, there's voting. with the president and voting against. the president. But on the other hand, Republicans don't want to be seen as. recording a vote that would shield. Jeffrey Epstein from further. transparency. But the Epstein story just hasn't gone. away, has it? It is a story that has. dogged President Trump and just to step. back for a minute, I kind of wonder why. you think that is. Why is this a story.

that just won't go away? The story of Jeffrey Epstein is one that. prompts a lot of questions about the. kind of things that President Trump has. put at the heart of his campaign, about. whether there is a powerful group of. elites whose interests are perceived as. being more important than the interests. of the people. Trump ran on a campaign of of ending the. deep state, of draining the swamp. But now he's in charge and he's the one. who appears to be shielding these files. and keeping them out of view of the.

American people. I think [snorts] it's an example of a. time when President Trump has tapped. into these cultural forces, but now that. he's in the highest office of the land, they are turning in a direction that he. didn't expect. Michael, just to step back for a second. and talk about the larger context this. is all happening in. It feels as though the lesson over and. over again. in recent elections has been that the. electorate, the American people, care. about affordability. They care about the.

cost of living. They care about. healthcare. We saw Democrats win big up. and down the ballot recently, also about. affordability in many respects. President [snorts] Trump won the most. recent presidential elections in large. part because people cared about the. economy more than any other issues that. the Democrats were pressing. So, it. feels really remarkable that after all. of this, Democrats are focusing on. Jeffrey Epstein. So, what do you make of. that? I think for Democrats,

they are connecting this issue to. affordability. You know, they've been saying for a. while that President Trump and. Republicans are protecting the interests. of elites, of billionaires and that. they're not looking out for the regular. people. And they see the Epstein issue as part. of that, as another case of President. Trump protecting billionaires rather. than providing transparency that people. really want. But the other thing here is that this. issue is one of the first times that. Democrats have successfully been able to. split Republicans and to divide some of.

them from President Trump. And so, even though they just had these. big wins in New Jersey and Virginia and. New York that many attributed to a. message of affordability, [music]. this is a case where they can't resist. an opportunity to poke at the Republican. Party, make them look weak, [music]. and put them on the defense. Michael Gold, thank you so much. Thank you. >> [music].

>> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. >> [music]. >> The House gave final passage to a. spending package to reopen the. government, >> [music]. >> triggering the end to the.

longest-running shutdown in the nation's. history. The vote came on day 43 of the shutdown. and days after eight Democratic [music]. senators broke their own party's. blockade and joined Republicans in. allowing the spending measure to move. forward. It was the first time the House had held. a vote in nearly 2 [music] months. And. the American penny died on Wednesday. It was 232 years old. The cause [music] was irrelevance and. expensiveness, the Treasury Department.

said. Nothing could [music] be bought anymore. with a penny, not even penny candy, and. the cost to mint the penny had risen to. more than 3 cents. The final pennies [music] were minted on. Wednesday afternoon in Philadelphia. Today's episode [music] was produced by. Rob Zipko, Alex Stern, and Rochelle. Bongiorno. It was edited by Page Cowett and Lexi. Diao. >> [music]. >> Contains music by Dan Powell and Marion. Lozano and was engineered by Alyssa. Moxley.

>> [music]. >> That's it for [music] the daily. I'm. Rachel Abrams. See you tomorrow.