Guilty

and we are starting with breaking news. this hour you are looking live at the. courthouse where we have word that the. jury has reached a verdict in former. president Donald Trump's hush money. criminal. [Music]. trial we are standing in front of the. municipal courthouse in low Manhattan. it's. 514 and I have just hoofed over here.

from uh my apartment because we got word. about 25 minutes ago that this jury. after just a day and a half has reached. a verdict in the hush money case of. former president. Trump behind me are a huge number of. demonstrators who have gone. [Music]. quiet the verdicts are starting to be. read one by one.

and so. far according to our colleagues who are. in the room they are guilty guilty. guilty guilty guilty guilty every single. one of the csil remember there are. 34 are. guilty. and I mean just to make it. official from The New York Times I'm. Michael babbaro this is the daily Donald. J Trump former president of the United.

States has become the first president to. be convicted of a. crime and it's absolutely no. overstatement a historic. [Music]. moment it's by the time you hear this. going to be Friday May.

[Music]. 31st Jonah. bramwit how's it going Michael it's it's. you okay yeah I mean I should ask you. how's it going Jonah I'm okay yeah. you've got that glow of post-trial glow. it's over. mhm Jord I want you to take us inside. the courtroom for the moment of this. historic verdict and then we'll talk. about why this was the ultimate verdict.

but just start by setting the scene in. the room there were no cameras as has. been the case throughout this trial so. be our camera for this final day you got. it so let's rewind just a little bit. before the verdict back to 4:15 p.m. because around 4:15 p.m. the prosecutors. have come into the courtroom as has. Donald Trump and the judge gets up on. the bench and he says something a little. confusing which is that he is planning. to dismiss the jury at 4:30 p.m. mhm so.

immediately I see tweets starting to go. up no verdict today there's kind of a. release of tension in the courtroom to. some extent right but 4:30 comes and. this very punctual judge is not there. and then another minute passes another. minute passes and then the judge comes. back in the courtroom and he gets on the. bench and what he says is at 4:20 p.m. 5. minutes after he had previously. addressed us the jury had sent him a. note and the note had said that they had. a verdict so the tension rushes right. back in and sure enough about a half an.

hour later the jury files in one juror. looks at Trump she already knows what's. going to happen in a second but the. former president does not and they go to. their seats and the foreman stands up. and he confirms to the judge that they. do in fact have a verdict and then it. all happens very very quickly he's. suddenly being asked how they found the. defendant on the first count the foreman. without any hesitation and a flat voice.

says guilty and he says guilty on the. second count he says guilty on the third. count and he is going really really fast. so we are hearing Donald Trump. transformed into a felon and then hit. with a second a third a fourth a fifth. eventually a 34th H felony count on. which he has been found guilty by a jury. of 12 New Yorkers in the span of two. minutes W so think about that for a. second 34 counts over the span of 2. minutes it went by really quickly it's. almost like a bell ringing in that room.

guilty guilty guilty what is Trump's. reaction I didn't have a perfect view of. trump I was frantically entering the. guilty please into our live blog but I. interviewed someone who did one of the. sketch artists who's been there day in. day out during the trial she had a great. view of trump she said that when the. convictions started raining down on him. he closed his eyes and then he shook his. head and mouthed the word no and by the. end of the recitation he's kind of. slumped back in his seat Slack kind of. all the air has gone out of him and it's.

over he's been. convicted and the judge thanks the jury. for their service he thanks them. profusely and then he seems almost as if. he's about to leave the judge but then. he asks about Trump's bail status. meaning is Trump going to be imprisoned. or not and there is no bail status set. and he releases him on his own. recognizance which is just a legal way. of saying that he releases him so Trump. is fre to go Trump does in fact go he. stands up and he makes to move out of.

the courtroom and I can see that his. face is kind of strong he's jutting out. his jaw but it really looks this time as. if it's effortful as if he's trying to. hold it together he shakes Eric Trump's. hand Eric Trump his son is standing. right behind him and he walks out of the. courtroom no handcuffs no booking is. that typical yeah this is a nonviolent. crime in New York and the sentencing. hasn't happened yet Trump was of course. never in prison before this so it's not. unusual that he would not be sent to. jail at this point so that's it he walks.

out and waits for the moment when he. sentenced that's right okay so let's. talk about how it is we got to this. unanimous verdict and what I think we. should acknowledge is a total victory. for the district attorney who brought. this case when you were last at this. table with me closing arguments had just. finished from the prosecution and the. defense so help us understand what. happened that brings us to this outcome. after that sure so Wednesday morning. bright and early we were back at it in. the courtroom where the judge gave the.

jury their instructions and in these. instructions he for the first time. really helped them to understand this. very complicated case because each of. the 34 felony falsifying business record. charges against Donald Trump holds. within it multiple other crimes so let. me explain what I mean by that so. prosecutors accused Trump of covering up. reimbursements to Michael Cohen that. came after Cohen paid stormmy Daniels. and prosecutors say that's payment to. Stormy Daniels was part of an election.

conspiracy that Trump Cohen and the. former publisher of the national. Inquirer David pecker were all involved. in right so the jury is for the first. time hearing that not only do they have. to find him guilty or not guilty of. falsifying business records number one. but it has to cover up that election. conspiracy and even more complicatedly. that election conspiracy has to have. made use of unlawful means and I'm doing. air quotes with my hands so there's. another crime underneath the election.

conspiracy the jurors don't have to be. unanimous about what that crime is but. they have to find that in some way. somehow Donald Trump criminally. conspired to win the 2016 election and. that he falsified business records to do. so I'm curious if this felt confusing to. the jurors because it is very. complicated yeah I mean it was confusing. and I can say that for a fact because. the jurors actually asked to hear the. jury instructions read back again H but. we learned later they didn't want to.

hear the entire 55 page Dury instruction. they asked to start at a very specific. place so in these jury instructions the. judge explained this concept called. evidentiary inference and it's a you. know a lot of syllables but it means. something very simple which is what. kinds of logical leaps to conclusions. can you make when you're evaluating a. criminal case and so what the judge had. already told them and now tells them. again he explains by analogy he says.

suppose you go to bed one night and it's. not raining and then you wake up in the. morning and you look out your window and. you see that the street is wet and the. sidewalk is wet under those. circumstances it might be reasonable to. infer that it had rained overnight H and. so in this case what he seems to be. saying and what these instructions more. importantly seem to be guiding them is. yes maybe Trump is not in every. situation that prosecutors have said. this looks as if a crime were committed.

this is a part of the conspiracy but. given that the evidence gestures at him. leading all these actions that. prosecutors have talked about it might. be reasonable to infer that in fact. Trump was responsible for these various. hush money deals that prosecutors have. said were part of the conspiracy. interesting and for the falsification of. business records to cover up one hush. money deal in particular that payment to. Stormy Daniels so in a sense it kind of. sounds like the jury is in asking for. this particular set of instructions. suggesting that in their minds.

everything is wet and they are asking. can we infer that when it comes to Trump. in this case it has rained yeah that's. exactly right and along with the jury. instructions the jurors have asked her. four excerpts of testimony three of them. belonging to David pecker prosecutors. say that he's one member of the tripod. conspiracy that was formed at Trump. Tower between pecker Michael Cohen and. Donald Trump to suppress negative news. about Trump in the 2016 election right.

so three pieces of testimony from pecker. one piece of testimony from Michael. Cohen and two of those pieces of. testimony actually concern that Trump. Tower meeting they want to hear what. Michael Cohen had to say about it they. want to hear what David pecker had to. say about it and what do you take from. the request for these pieces of. testimony again so it's a Fool's errand. to read too much into requests like this. they could have been looking for a. hundred different things but it was. interesting to me that they wanted. testimony from both pecker and Cohen. about the same meeting because what it.

suggests to me is oh maybe they want to. compare these two accounts of this very. very important meeting in the. prosecution's case and so we looked up. the transcripts and what we saw is. pecker and Cohen tell pretty much the. same story like for instance David. pecker testified that at that meeting he. offered to be Trump's eyes and ears. Michael Cohen testified that at that. meeting David Becker offered to keep an. eye out for negative news stories about.

Trump during the campaign so yeah those. don't exactly match but that's a win if. you have two people telling a story from. 2015 in 2024 and they're using. Expressions that directly Echo each. other that's pretty good for the. prosecution's case right because the. jurors seem to be focusing on what feels. like an important moment in the. development of this conspiracy and of. course conspiracies at the center of. these charges exactly okay we of course. now know that these inquiries from the.

jurors were an insight into their. mindset which was that Trump was guilty. and that makes me want to reflect for. just a moment on the defense in this. case because Jonah throughout our. conversations all these episodes we've. done with you you've always found a way. to signal I think that the defense was. meaningfully weaker in its. presentation to the jury than the. prosecution was and now that the case is. over and now that we know that the. defense has lost I wonder what your. diagnosis is of why. they lost well let's be clear the.

defense was up against an enormous. amount in this case the prosecution had. a ton of documentary evidence they had a. New York jury which means people who may. not have been all that sympathetic to. Donald Trump they had a strong trial. team and strong trial lawyers and they. had a pretty elegantly designed trial. case with a lot of Sizzle and Flash and. exciting stuff to get the jury engaged. and keep them engaged but the. prosecution also had one big advantage.

that we haven't talked about yet and. defense had one big disadvantage and. it's the same thing it's Donald Trump. Donald Trump was under a gag order for. this entire trial and that gag order. barred him from attacking Witnesses. among other people two witnesses who. we'd be most prone to attacking were. Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen and so. it's very interesting that while Trump. was gagged like this was not able to. attack those people his lawyers the. people who actually are not. hired to attack for him they're not.

attack dogs actually they're lawyers did. two things that really stick out in my. mind one is that they denied that he had. sex with Stormy Daniels they did that. their opening that's not a part of the. case but it's something that Trump has. done for years and years and so that. clearly was very important to them. probably because it was very important. to him and then even more obviously they. attacked Michael Cohen at every chance. they got they attacked him in their. opening they attacked him in their. closing they attacked him while he was.

testifying they attacked him while other. people were testifying attack Michael. Cohen was their first second and third. Instinct in this case maybe because it. is Donald Trump's first second and third. instinct to attack his. adversaries but in Criminal Court where. there are parameters you have to be. thoughtful and elegant and concede. things that you don't necessarily want. to concede there was a point during this. case where the judge even told the. defense the jur was out of the room you.

could have attacked the idea of the. false business records you could have. attacked this you could have attacked. that but instead you spent your opening. statement opening the door to testimony. from Stormy Daniels by denying a sexual. encounter ever happened by denying that. sexual encounter never happen so when we. think about the defense in this case I. think we have to think about the. defendant you're saying basically the. defense is hamstrung by the requirements. of what Donald Trump wanted from his. defense lawyer which seemed to be a set.

of attacks that have worked well for him. in politics but just didn't seem to work. that well against all this evidence in. this courtroom that's exactly right an. example that people kept bringing up. during the trial sources lawyers people. who have seen a lot of trials they would. say what they should say is look my. client is a scumbag we know you hate him. but he did not do this that's the kind. of thing that's the kind of candidness. or what would be perceived at least by.

jurors as candidness that can get the. jury on your side they could have been a. more effective defense if Trump would. let them yes this did not go well for. the defense their client former. president Donald Trump has been. convicted of 34 felonies right and the. question now that he has been convicted. on all these counts is what happens to. him what happens next right it's a good. question and the answer is complicated. and not entirely clear. [Music].

we'll be right. back okay so Jonah what does happen next. in this case of the people of the state. of New York versus Donald Trump just. give us a road map for the next few days. and weeks in the next few days it's. irely possible we could see an appeal.

Trump is not known for holding his fire. when it comes to Legal maneuvers of that. sort but appeals on what ground well. that's what remains to be seen it'll be. very interesting to figure out what. exactly Trump's lawyers decide to bring. up here there is one very obvious thing. which is that Trump was charged with. falsifying business records to cover up. an election conspiracy that election. conspiracy is related to this little. known state state law.

17152 it's called and it just doesn't. have that much history certainly it has. no history being used in this manner and. so one thing that I would imagine. Trump's lawyers will bring up is the. enormity of this case based on this not. very well-known law okay so that's the. question of appeals turn now to. sentencing so this we know a little bit. more straightforwardly we don't know. what's going to happen of course but we. know when it's going to happen. the judge has already scheduled the.

sentencing it's going to be in July it's. actually going to be 4 days before the. Republican convention where Trump is. officially nominated that's incredible. timing so we keep having this split. screen this year of Trump's legal issues. and his campaign right and here's. another example of it is it normal for. sentencing to be delayed this long July. is month and change away it's extremely. normal because in New York what happens. before sentencing is you get something. called a probation report you meet with.

the probation office of New York Trump. is going to go into the probation office. in New York they will probably come to. him I would imagine given Secret Service. concerns but Trump will meet with a. probation officer who will interview him. and will provide a report recommending a. certain sentence and that's one of many. things the judge can take into account. wow when he decides to sentence Donald. Trump okay so that was my next question. who's responsible for sentencing you. just said it's the judge what kind of. sent sentence guidelines are in place.

what kind of sentence might there be so. Trump has been convicted of 34 E. nonviolent felonies the penalty for the. felonies he's been convicted of is up to. four years in prison but there's no. prison time required so he could also. just be put on probation and there's a. lot of considerations that go into this. so for example Trump is a first-time. offender right often a first-time. offender on a nonviolent felony might. get a relatively lenient sentence maybe. just probation maybe a small amount of.

time in jail but there are also. considerations on the other hand to take. into account such as Trump violated a. gag order 10 times during this trial and. was find $10,000 for doing so and so the. fact that he flouted the judge's orders. 10 separate times M that could also be. taken into account there's also the. question of how Trump behaves after the. verdict judges often evaluate a. defendant's remorse or lack thereof in. fact the judge in Trump's civil fraud.

case when he came down very very hard on. him charging him hundreds of millions of. dollars explicitly commented on Trump's. lack of remorse said it was near. pathological and it would not be unusual. or an abuse of power it would be totally. typical to look at what a defendant is. doing a convicted defendant is doing and. take it into account when you think. about a sentence in other words Trump's. not only lack of remorse so far but his. open dis stand for the judge and this.

entire process could end up being very. consequential when it comes to. sentencing it's a genuine danger for him. okay well let's just play this out let's. say on July 11th that the judge does. sentence Trump to prison what happens. what does it look. like I don't know I mean normally when a. defendant is sentenced I'll give you an. example like Allan weiselberg that's. Trump's former Chief Financial Officer. I've seen him sentenced twice in the. past few years and after he was. sentenced he was handcuffed he was taken.

into custody and eventually he went to. Rikers to serve out kind of months long. sentences each time but with Trump even. though that's normally what would happen. I just can't sit here and tell you. Michael that I know that exact same. thing is going to happen Trump has been. so successful at fighting American Norms. since the minute he came onto the. political scene in. 2015 but I don't know what happens if. the judge sentences him to prison.

whether he goes whether the sentence is. somehow deferred or delayed either until. after the election or later if Trump. perhaps even after his presidency. perhaps even after his presidency. elected if Trump appeals the judge could. decide to keep him out during the appeal. just to be maximally fair that would. make sense and seems as if it's. something we could see happen I really. just feel somewhat at a loss it's funny. because usually a verdict kind of helps. you feel more confident now we don't. have to say allegation.

fied recordr a conspiracy to his 201. elction but we cannot say exactly what. the consequen going toate exactly well. let's play out the alternative which is. that the judge at sentencing says no. prison time just probation what kind of. restrictions would a conviction but no. prison time have on Trump in terms of. his movements or ability to conduct a. campaign as best you understand it I. mean this is just a remarkable. possibility often people on probation. have to meet with their probation.

officer tell them what they've been up. to so for instance something that our. colleague Willie rash bomb keeps saying. is Trump will have to answer the. question what are you doing for work I. mean if he's elected I'm president. exactly people on probation are not. supposed to associate with known felons. that's something of an issue for Trump. right because known felons are in his. political orbit that's right and a third. thing you're supposed to tell a. probation officer is is your travel. plans when you leave a state usually.

someone who is on probation has their. movements restricted right and you know. who travels a lot and leaves a state a. lot a candidate for president so this is. going to be very strange even if he's. just on probation yes let's assume for a. minute that Donald Trump gets reelected. because as best I can tell and correct. me if I'm wrong Jonah nothing about this. conviction disqualifies him from holding. the office of President that's right we. know once he becomes president he can't.

pardon himself for this crime because. it's a local crime not a federal crime. as president he can pardon himself in. theory for federal Crim this isn't one. of them but once he becomes president. what can he do with the power of that. office to somehow mitigate the fact of. this conviction is there anything he can. do I mean as far as we can see right now. not that much a conviction stays with. you there could be some mechanism. through which Trump is able to alter. this. but for now it's going to be what any.

conviction is it's going to stay with. him and follow him for the rest of his. life very possibly this is a real. serious stain on his legacy Jonah we. know that throughout this trial Trump. has spoken of it as a Witch Hunt said he. didn't think he could get a fair trial. in New York that the government was out. to get him and this is the latest. chapter of Democrats seeking his. destruction. how has he responded to the conviction.

in the hours since the verdict came down. in much the same way but with one big. difference this was a disgrace this was. a rigged trial by a conflicted judge who. was corrupt he attacked the judge he. attacked the case our whole country is. being rigged right now this was done by. the Biden. Administration he attacked President. Biden saying that the case had been. brought by him which it was was not. right but then he said the real verdict.

is going to be November 5th by the. people the real verdict is going to be. on November 5th election day this is. long from over thank you very. much Trump has been trapped in court but. now he's out until the sentencing at. least he's out and he's back in the. political realm and he's going to take. what happened legally and reframe it. politically and that's what he's doing. by pointing at the election he is going. to take this case in which he was.

convicted by a jury of his peers and he. is going to say look at this nonsense. that was brought against Me by President. Biden this is why we have to beat the. Democrats in November right and I know. you're not a political reporter you're a. court reporter but I think we do have to. reflect on the kind of strangeness of. this moment as it lands in the political. sphere I mean for a good number of. Democrats this is the outcome that on. some level they may have always expected. and perhaps wanted given Trump's conduct.

they wanted him convicted of a crime for. a good number of Republicans who have. been told by Trump that he's the subject. of a Witch Hunt and they're coming after. him this is also the outcome that they. expected but they didn't want it they. dreaded it because they believe Trump is. a victim of a Witch Hunt and I guess the. question is what does this mean not to. those two groups but to this crucial. group of Voters in the middle who didn't.

want it didn't fear it but now just have. to live in a world where one of the two. candidates for president has been. convicted of a crime this is the. all-important political question and I. feel comfortable answering it because in. some ways it is a question about the law. H what do you mean Trump has taken on. the law and the law has taken on Trump. he's been indicted four times he's been. convicted in this first trial and he has. at every turn said that the law is. illegitimate and so. one way to ask the question you just.

asked me is leaving aside people who. hate Trump and people who love Trump. what will people choose the law or. Donald. Trump that's what this election is going. to be. about the American legal system and what. it says is okay and what it says is not. this man who has run rough shot over it. has taken what it has to offer which is. a jury trial has been convicted and may. still Triumph so I think that this.

election pits the law against Donald. Trump in the minds of the American voter. and it's just going to be fascinating to. see what they. do well. Jonah thank you very much of course. thanks for having me throughout the. trial thank you for being here. throughout the trial. [Laughter].

we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need to. another. day on Thursday President Biden. authorized Ukraine to conduct limited. strikes inside of Russia with us-made. weapons opening a new and riskier.

chapter in the 2-year-old War the. decision marks the first time that a US. president has authorized attacks on. Military targets inside a nuclear armed. adversary Biden has long resisted such a. move fearing that it could trigger a US. war with Russia as a result his. authorization is extremely narrow under. it Ukraine may use American weapons to. hit targets just in inside Russian. territory that have been attacking.

Ukraine's second largest city. harke Ukraine may not use Us weapons to. attack Russia more. [Music]. broadly a reminder we'll be sharing a. new episode of our colleague show the. interview. tomorrow this week David maresi talks. with the director Richard linklater. about his new movie Hitman and about how. his relationship to movie making has. changed over the past four decades I.

don't think you can ever replace that. initial just passion and fury when. you've discovered your art form and you. just take it in with your entire. being today's episode was produced by. Olivia Nat Michael Simon Johnson and. Eric krupky with help from mu Zade and. Luke Vander pluke it was edited by Paige. cowt contains original music by Dan. Powell Rowan neis. and Diane Wong and was engineered by.

Alysa. [Music]. Moxley the daily is made by Rachel. crester Lindsey Garrison CLA tennis. Paige cowt Michael Simon Johnson Brad. fiser Chris Wood Jessica Chung Stella. tan Alexander Lee young Lisa Chow Eric. krupky Mark George Luke Vander plug MJ. Davis Lynn Dan Powell Sydney Harper. Michael benois Liz o balen a chv relle. Banja Diana win Maran Lozano Cory Shel.

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Tobin Sam dlck Paula Schuman Lissa. Anderson Julia Simon Sophia Milan mahima. chablani Elizabeth Davis Moore Jeffrey. Miranda renan barelli Maddie masello. Isabella Anderson Nina lassam and Nick. Pitman that's it for the daily I'm. Michael Boro see you on Monday.