From Serial: Season 4 - Guantánamo

hey everyone it's Sabrina as you know. sometimes on the weekends we here at the. daily bring you episodes of other shows. made by our colleagues at New York Times. audio this weekend we've got the first. episode of serial's new season season 4. this time the serial team's telling a. story that maybe hasn't been on your. mind recently but as they'll show it's. one of the most important fascinating. and complicated criminal justice stories. in our country and that's Guantanamo Bay.

so here they are with that first new. episode and for all the rest search. serial wherever you listen to podcasts. or in our New York Times audio app happy. listening over here at serial we love. criminal justice stories Guantanamo is. the most astonishing one we've ever seen. Guantanamo is a prison and a court that. we made from scratch right after. September 11th we were at Warren after. Afghanistan fighting Al-Qaeda and the.

Taliban and pretty soon we' captured. thousands of men our makeshift holding. cells in Afghanistan couldn't handle. them all we needed a safe place to keep. them away from the chaos so we could. sort them out and the place we chose was. Guantanamo Bay 8,000 Mi away from. Afghanistan in Cuba we already had a. sleepy Naval Base there we've had it. since 1903 there was plenty of room and. this part was crucial the Bush. Administration figured because the base.

was in Cuba on foreign soil the. prisoners we delivered there wouldn't. have access to us courts that was The. Innovation we wanted leeway to hold. these guys for however long we wanted. and mostly we wanted to interrogate them. however we wanted to find out what they. knew especially about Al-Qaeda cuz we. didn't know a ton about Al-Qaeda back. then and we were petrified they were. about to Blindside us again so that was. the idea Guantanamo wouldn't be a. traditional p camp it'd be a new thing.

with new. rules the problem well there were many. many problems but the problem that. dogged Guantanamo the whole time and. which became apparent pretty quickly was. that these weren't the guys we thought. they were all told 780 Muslim men and. some boys were held at Guantanamo and. even the ones who were Taliban or. Al-Qaeda they were overwhelmingly. lowlevel like foot soldiers other.

prisoners we never figured out exactly. who they were or if they posed a threat. to us our Intel wasn't so. hot we' shipped all these prisoners to. Guantanamo without a solid plan for. letting them back out many people sat. there for 2 3 5 years and some 12 years. 14 years 16 years we didn't know what to. do with. them 30 men are still held at Guantanamo. and the cost the last time someone.

tallied it up $13 million a year per. prisoner Guantanamo is probably the most. expensive Lockup in the world. astonishing. no Dana Chivas and I Dana's worked on. previous seasons of cial she's going to. be my co-host this season Dana and I. have been trying to do a story about. Guantanamo for years almost a decade our. first attempt was in. 2015 Sarah and I had flown down to.

Guantanamo or GMO as it's often called. for the official media tour the only way. we could see the prison the experience. was strange almost as soon as we arrived. we were picked up at the airport by Two. Soldiers from public affairs would any. of you guys like to stop at the small. little mini mart real quick on this side. it's just a small one just to get if you. want a snack or something um they also. have souvenirs there but you'll have. another chance to get more souvenirs on. the other. side um.

Guantanamo has three gift shops recently. the gift shops did a collaboration with. Disney so you could bring home a t-shirt. that says Guantanamo Bay with a Minnie. Mouse on it or one with palm trees that. says it don't get mo better than this. for the mindful there was a coffee mug. with a simple Mantra be here now. Guantanamo. Bay we passed up the suvenir offer on. day one maybe you caught Sarah's. hesitation in the tape um because how.

inappropriate but by day three oh I'm. totally getting a bobblehead there we. were shelling out cash for Fidel Castro. bobbleheads to bring to our loved ones. back. home to be at Guantanamo is to be worn. down into a if you can't beat them join. them. posture it's a company town the company. is the US military everything in the. town belongs to the US military the car. wash the high school the bowling alley.

The Ground Zero paintball range and of. course the story of Guantanamo that they. tell you at Guantanamo about what. they're doing that also belongs to the. military our mission today is to provide. safe Humane legal and transparent. custody of the detainees here they. didn't talk about the history of the. prison why it's here what went on here. who's still being held here they talked. about the mission and they kept it tight. from the camp Commander all the way down. the chain are public affairs escorts a.

medical officer a guard safe legal. transparent care safe legal Humane and. trans transparent care and custody of. detainees care and custody of the. detainees providing Compassionate Care. for these detainees transparent care. custody and. [Music]. control the UN has said the treatment of. the detes of Guantanamo is quote cruel. inhuman and degrading and that their. detention and past torture are. violations of international.

law but at the prison itself what we. heard from our military tour guides was. about how well cared for the detainees. were they they can give their own. Clippers uh toothpaste soap they also. get some uh some snack type items based. on uh based on their compliance it's not. that anyone was unprofessional or. impolite with us the soldiers we spent. the most time with the public affairs. escorts were considerate hosts picking. us up a little after 6:00 a.m. engaging. in small talk Sarah and I spent a lot of.

time oooing and aing the SES they. pointed out look at the color of that. water yeah it's amazing commenting on. the weather it's really really really. hot it's Afghanistan hotter I'm sure. right yeah volume's hotter well yes. volum. hotter while behind us set two prisons. housing 122 men the vast majority of. whom had been there for more than a. decade without. charge beautiful look at this so pretty.

[Music]. Garden my tolerance for all this polite. chitchat wore thin standing on a cliff. above the sparkling sea next to a small. building where the Adolescent prisoners. were once held I had a tiny meltdown I. think I'm the part of the day where the. [ __ ] upness has just gone to my head. what did you say I think I'm hitting the. part of the day where like the Heat and. the [ __ ] upness of everything is is. like just taking out my sensibility what.

do you mean I don't know I just feel. like loopy from all of this oh you do. well it's exhausting cuz you're like. pretending everything is pretends that's. what I'm resp we're in a play and we're. playing our part everyone's doing their. part it's the pretending that's making. me lose it right. now recently I looked back at my notes. from that time I'd written went to some. Lookout area I pretended to give a crap. about the view you could see Naval. thingies in the water used to tie up. battleships in the bay it was a nice. view for sure lots of hills some green.

swampy Mangrove looking things out on. the bay and then it really is like. theater you're pretending to report or. else you're pretending to report the. story they're telling you and they're. pretending to believe that the story. you're doing is the one you've told them. you're doing you're pretending to. believe all the [ __ ] they have to. tell you and they're pretending that. they're believing that you're believing. it and everyone knows the only. information you want is stuff they. either don't know or couldn't or. wouldn't talk about even if they did. know everyone asks chy and yucks it up.

including. us what we wanted to know is what the. people working at Guantanamo thought. about Guantanamo how they saw their jobs. they were part of something. extraordinary so I was asking pretty. much everyone I met what they thought. about the detainees and their status. sincerely asking does this place feel. like it's winding down a lot of the. prisoners have been cleared to leave. they aren't even supposed to be here. anymore how do you feel about that and. theyd look a little stricken they said. things like I don't know I don't have.

any personal feelings you know toward. these people or this line of questioning. makes me completely nervous one guy told. me it was unfair of me even to ask we. started to give up on the idea we could. have a normal conversation with anyone. lucky for us one of our public affairs. escorts was a delightful ray of sunshine. in the form of army specialist rul. Sanchez rul was cheerful and chatty he. seemed looser than the other escorts. we're like a Disneyland employee.

H well that was a joke definitely a joke. it's nothing like nothing like. Disneyland they have no churros here so. within an hour of meeting him we'd learn. rul was from Arizona newly married he. was leading a group for LGBT service. members co-hosting a show over at the. radio station and he seemed genuinely. interested in the history of. Guantanamo so after a couple days I. pitched my question to Raul Raul I said. some of these guys have been cleared to. leave for four or 5 years years now and.

yet all around us there's this massive. apparatus to sustain their confinement. do you ever struggle with that idea um I. never I never struggle with the idea. um because um I feel that we have we. have pushed our limits so far to to make. such a Humane environment for them that. every day we're trying to seek new ways. to to try to make. this.

place um a better environment to make it. a a better living. situation that's oh my gosh poor baby. Raul that is present day Raul Sanchez. years after Sarah and I met him at. Guantanamo I played him that same tape. you just heard of him answering Sarah's. question about the detainees he told me. he remembered that conversation oh my. gosh because she caught me that that. question caught me that was in a moment.

where I was realizing things and she. caught me which is why which is why I. don't sound as quickly eloquent as I. usually do yeah you know I sound canned. no I didn't have a canned answer because. I was agreeing that they should just. leave in that moment I felt like at. least I feel right now in my heart what. I wanted that moment was just fore to. take me back home with you guys and take. me off the island yeah I felt trapped I. felt trapped because I couldn't say. anything I couldn't no I was I was now.

in that moment I was now. lying R of course couldn't tell us any. of this back then he was still on the. job that's why we never did a story in. 2015 we couldn't get anyone to open up. to us but even as guano faded as a topic. of national discussion we kept thinking. about it wondering what was going on. down there we figured there has got to. be a way to do this story we even tried. writing a TV show about it a. fictionalized version of guantan.

which humbling but while we were. researching it we had all of these. fascinating off- thee reccord. conversations with former personnel and. former detainees and so we started to. Wonder Maybe enough time has passed. enough people are back in civilian life. maybe they'd be willing to put some of. those stories on the record so we tried. again contacted guards interrogators. commanders lawyers chaplain translators. also former prisoners more than a 100. people and a remarkable number of them. said okay I'm ready here's what.

happened there's been great journalism. about the legal maneuvering to justify. Guantanamo and about the detain abuse. about the politics and policy but what. we were after were The Insider stories a. history of Guantanamo you could only get. from the regular people who went through. it the people caught in inside a justice.

system that at its core was made up what. were they thinking if they could speak. as themselves for themselves what would. they say now that they couldn't say then. a lot as it turns. out from serial Productions and the New. York Times this is season 4 of Cal. Guantanamo one prison camp told week by. week I'm Sarah kanig and I'm Dana. [Music]. Chivas. [Music].

before we get back to Raul we just want. you to hear what Guantanamo is like how. it feels to live there and work there. and be imprisoned there from a bunch of. people we've talked to it's the backdrop. to All the Other Stories this. season for example maybe you have an. idea in your head of what it's like to. work IG Guantanamo put that aside for a.

second I mean I love GMO like it's it's. La La Land Jake Meyer was 25 when he. arrived at Guantanamo to work in. Military Intelligence you know you're. you're on 42 square miles you've got. like five great beaches you know it's. always summer you don't have much to. worry about you know like there weren't. any worries you know I didn't pay any. taxes I didn't pay any rent you know if. you wanted to go scuba diving after work. mean you could be at the beach up and in. the water in 20.

minutes Guantanamo for years was. portrayed as a key component in the war. against terrorism but it also happens to. be on a Caribbean Naval Base stocked. with booze I parted my ass off and Geto. everybody's in good shape everybody's. looking good everyone's T and hot. everyone's drinking and young massive. amount of drinking massive amount of. partying I mean just everyone was. getting drunk and getting laid and then. in the Puerto Rican National Guard my.

gosh they had the best speach parties. thousands of young fit Soldiers and. Sailors for some of them it's their. first time away from home Guantanamo is. where they've landed to come of. age I talked to one guy Patrick who was. on the prison's quick reaction force. it's kind of like a SWAT team he turned. 21 at Guantanamo he started his. deployment trying to hit on women and. bars but ended up falling in love with. another man a sailor they had to sneak. around what would you do together what. types of activities would you do or like.

where would you go to. sex okay I just you asked and I felt you. felt the need to ask in that way I'll. just be expit asked the question and I. was I heard myself ask sexual activities. activities of sexual nature sexual. activities um. where never mind so it felt very like. college like without it being obviously. the next day wasn't classes it was GMO. remember the original purpose of. Guantanamo was to get Fighters off the. battlefield out of the way to a place.

where we could question them Guantanamo. was a hastily built Intel Factory chaos. as simply put it was chaotic. well-meaning chaos but chaos nonetheless. that's Paul rester he oversaw the. military's Intel shop at Guantanamo in. the early days when he first got there. Guantanamo was already crawling with. people from three and four-letter. agencies CIA FBI Dia NC.

some were seasoned Al-Qaeda. investigators others were fresh out of. army Intel school all were competing for. access to the. detes to streamline the scheduling they. teamed up three interrogators plus an. interpreter so that's four people trying. to interrogate a single detainee at the. same time they're all sitting in a room. together at the same time and oh by the. way the only person in the room that's. got any areas studies knowledge of what.

they're talking about is the. detainee I tried to explain everything I. can Omar deay a former detainee was. picked up in Pakistan and tried to. persuade them that we not uh the people. they're looking for for him and for a. lot of other detainees who didn't know. much or anything at all about Al-Qaeda. the interrogations were maddening the. same questions over and over again for. months sometimes years they'd say I've.

already answered that go back to the. file or they'd stop speaking at all the. American strategy could be mystifying. another guy morat Kass he was 19 when he. was taken to Guantanamo he said he had. this one interrogator who kept talking. about the time he spent in Germany where. morat's from he told me a lot of stories. about his life and um it was really. boring but he taught me lots of stuff. from his hashish uh um using hases and.

stuff like that with young German. parties and uh lot of crazy stuff but. and you just did you say anything did. you just sit there and listen to it yeah. I couldn't go away I was I had shuckles. uh on the ground I was uh lock of. grounds I couldn't stand. [Music]. up in the beginning the detainees didn't. have a choice about the interrogations. they were forced to go that's what made. Guantanamo. Guantanamo to do what we wanted to do.

there we ended up breaking international. law sidest stepping the Geneva. conventions which give certain. protections to prisoners of. War instead the government argued that. the men we'd captured weren't prisoners. of War they were something else they. called them unlawful enemy combatants. and according to this line of thinking. unlawful enemy combatants were not. protected by the Geneva. conventions which meant we could play by. a different set of rules we could scream.

at them for hours leave them Shackled to. the. floor one one time they told me uh my. family my mother and father they died on. a car car accident so that is uh they. told me a lot of things wow that's awful. yeah they told me all my family my. brothers and mother and fathers sit in. the car and they had the accident so but. he didn't he told me he can't tell me. any details and he's not allowed to talk. with me about it so he just told me that.

very short and said I can't tell you. this so yeah was this an interrogator. who said this it was interrogating yeah. I I didn't know if if I should believe. him or not I didn't. know morat didn't learn his family was. alive until years later when his lawyer. gave him a letter in his mother's. handwriting.

unlike normal American prisons there. weren't huge divisions among the inmates. they were from all over the world. Afghanistan but also Arabs from Saudi. Arabia Yemen Libya and Morocco Kuwait. Tunisia Sudan there are a few Europeans. two Australians those guys tended to be. released first they spoke different. languages which is a barrier in the. beginning but then they started learning. each other's languages including English. they were Muslims they'd all been. grabbed in the same conflict Omar deay. said they knew who was who who was.

Al-Qaeda of course we knew who was Ka. and they were obvious because they spoke. the way they spoke how they communicate. even inside they had a different system. by and large everyone got along the. abiding antagonism of the cell blocks. was between the prisoners and the guards. often the guards would come in hot. hostile or scared they'd been told like. the rest of us back home that these were. the guys these are the men who attacked. us on. 9/11 but after a while some of them. would start to doubt a former guard who.

worked in the blocks in the early years. he said by the end of his tour he could. differentiate among the detainees it was. like wait a minute this guy right here. yeah he's probably you know probably. legit a horrible person that has either. killed or cause people to be killed this. guy over here doesn't know [ __ ] he just. sits in his cell and cries and wants to. go home after nine months or a year the. guard unit would rotate out and the. cycle would start. over the prisoners had different. strategies for getting through a former.

detainee from Yemen who goes by Danny he. spent 14 years at Guantanamo I'm very. optimistic there I was like I always. like looking at the the sun light and. bright side and try to make from. lemon juice and everything but it was so. hard so hard so. [Music]. mean if you protested or provoked you.

risked all manner of physical abuse. including being trampled by a team of. guards in riot gear some detainees Omar. for instance fought back Omar figured. I'm going to get my ass kicked. regardless so I might as well make their. lives harder he remembered after one. particularly brutal confrontation Omar. had a bad eye and he said a guard had. gouged it and afterwards they put him in. a new cell where he could see his. reflection Omar said he hadn't seen. himself in a long long time. they had the like an iron mirror it.

wasn't the mirror it was like a round. thing on the wall and uh it was the. first time I saw my face and I saw how. my hair went like completely white my. chest were white my eye was like a shock. to see my eye was completely white it's. like. [Music]. shocking what what were you most scared. of in Guantanamo when you were there.

more scared. off uh I don't know maybe. the we don't know what's going to happen. it's like you've been there for years. and there's. no. no uh no foreseeable outcome you don't. there's no like how long am I going to. stay in this prison I don't know it's. crazy there. wasn't there was a logical system how.

people are released and why and what and. it's. mostly nothing to do with the law. nothing to do with with what went on in. interrogation it's more to do with other. politics outside. prison Guantanamo the prison wasn't. built to last and nobody wanted it to. last but nobody could manage to shut it. down even President Bush whose. administration started Guantanamo he. talked about closing it less than 5. years after it opened. didn't happen next came President Obama.

in 2009 he was going to close Guantanamo. within a year Congress blocked that plan. monano was a beast no politician wanted. to touch and the military couldn't empty. it out either we'd hope to put a bunch. of people on trial for war crimes but. most of them we couldn't even charge. much less convict the evidence we had. was too problematic or we'd abuse them. too badly or they were too small fry not. worth the. effort we tried other ways to sort them. to determine which detainees posed a.

threat and which ones didn't but the. people who did get cleared for release. or transfer a bunch of them they still. couldn't leave we had nowhere to send. them couldn't send them home we. considered their governments too. unstable couldn't find another country. to take them refused to take them in. ourselves a decade in and we were all. stuck and so began the languishing of. [Music]. Guantanamo Jake Meyer the Intel analyst. he first got to guantan in 2005 the op.

Tempo was high everything was moving. like you were a part of something big so. you're caught up in the momentum you're. caught up in you know this constant. Intel collection you know as fast as you. could as fast as you could get. it 6 years later he came back totally. different. story by then 2012 the Intel Mission. guantanamo's primary mission was pretty. much done there were about 170 prisoners. left we'd gotten whatever we could from. them The Beehive energy of the place.

dissipated you know and there's a lot. less people there it's like a ghost town. um so you know the party moved on I. guess and uh like everybody was kind of. just like what is going on now there's. just this feeling of everybody's just. like why are we still. here the majority of prisoners were. living communally in a new modern prison. by this point they had access to movies. books CD players they did art project. projects made Fantastical things out a.

cardboard they could finagle special. items from the ne the big store on the. base interrogations were optional and. one former detainee told me kind of. pleasant but the perks didn't obliterate. the facts President Obama's second term. had begun and guantan stunk of. permanence in early 2013 the detainees. began a hunger strike which grew and. grew attracting attention all over the. world the hunger Striker's message was. the same as ever. either charge me with a crime or let me.

go and that's pretty much how things. were when Sarah and I got to Guantanamo. in 2015 and met Raul the prison was. maybe closing maybe not closing and. there were 122 men still there with no. idea of when or if they would ever. leave so when I called Raul years later. what I wanted to know was what did. people like him whose job it was to tell. the official story of Guantanamo what. did they really think about working.

there what was The Unofficial. story of course Raul can't speak for the. thousands of people who have worked. there over the last 22 years but he did. have a story to tell me about why he was. so desperate to leave Guantanamo and. what happened to him. after by the time Sarah and I met him. Raul had been in the Army for 8 years. already before guantan obey the military. was my entire world I was talking about. it every single day every day I loved it. I I I took advantage of the military the.

military did not take advantage of me R. told me when he was graduating from high. school he needed some direction the. military gave him that and he got to do. incredible things they sent him to. Hawaii paid for him to go to culinary. school he got a $20,000 bonus when he. enlisted in. 2007 before Guantanamo he deployed to. Kosovo into Afghanistan which. surprisingly he loved Afghanistan lost. his virginity at BAM I became super gay.

there like I would get my hair dyed. black I would get my eyebrows um waxed. because on the German side they had a r. they had a Russian ran barber salon and. so we would go in there and get facials. and it was crazy after Afghanistan R's. next deployment was to Guantanamo Bay. Cuba the pearl of the Antilles which it. says on the signs of Guantanamo the. pearl of the Antilles rul had never been. to the Caribbean before. R's job was to escort reporters like.

Sarah and me around the base and into. the prison like most of the public. affairs staff and most of the staff at. Guantanamo actually re didn't know much. about the. detainees but he was excited to tell. reporters about all the good the. military was doing for the prisoners I. was so excited for for you to come out. there for Fox News for BBC for alzer. news to come so I can share the message. of what we had to do as a military that. we were going over and above as if we.

were some you know Salvation Army and. that we are there to keep them safe and. to send them back to be with their. family and and that's what we're doing. we're we are humanitarians here that was. my belief that is what what we were fed. to be told that is how we talked about. it that is what we. believed but the job was really. stressful and not just for the public. affairs staff a lot of people told us. this the flip side of the drinking. culture was an intense anxiety a fear of.

getting in trouble it was like they were. under the world's. microscope sometimes the detainees would. tattle on the guards sometimes their own. leadership would go after them slip-ups. mistakes and boneheaded decisions that. would normally be handled with a slap on. the wrist could wind up in Article 15. proceedings at GMO R told me he. preferred the fear and anxiety of. Afghanistan at least it was fleeting at. Guantanamo you're like on edge the. entire day you can't really think you. can't be productive and that's what was.

happening there the public affairs staff. especially were in a tricky position. caught between reporters who are. notoriously impatient with government. public affairs types and their own. commanding officers who were watching. their every move to make sure they. didn't say too much or the wrong thing. so they kept to the safe harbors of. their talking points present day R. demonstrated for me for instance if a. reporter had asked what percentage of. prisoners are Hunger striking right now. a question Sarah did ask R might have.

said thank you so much for that question. our ental feedings are overseen by our. nursing staff and making sure that. they're really staying safe you know. because our biggest takeaway and our. biggest Mission here at guantan OB Bay. is making sure of the safe and Humane. legal transparent care and custody of. our detainees and so you know this fully. Falls this fully falls into that Humane. part we want to make sure that we're. caring you know oh. yeah the safe legal human thing rul said. part of its power was in just how long.

it was it didn't roll off the tongue but. what it did do was it was just long. enough to make you roll your eyes or not. ask those questions or be. inconvenienced you know it was just long. enough you're so right we were like so. like we were so bored by the time you. got to the end of that line that we just. yeah like you're not going to get. anything from us and we're going to just. Tire you down yeah what was the worst. question a reporter could ask you you um. Camp.

7 Camp. 7 for nearly 15 years Camp 7 was the. super secret compound where the. government held its most important. prisoners these were the people accused. of plotting 9/11 like khed shik Muhammad. and other supposedly high-ranking. members of al-Qaeda prisoners who had. been held and tortured in secret CIA. prisons. overseas for a long time everything. about Camp 7 was classified. who was there what went on there and.

certainly it's location at Guantanamo. down an unmarked dusty road tucked away. in the scrubby. Hills so if a reporter asked a question. about Camp 7 like if we have extra time. can we look for Camp 7 which Sarah did. ask if we have extra time can we look. for Camp 7 Raul and the other public. affairs people would deflect I've never. had anything said to me about Camp S I. know nothing about it I mean you hear. rumors but as far as what they tell I. don't know anything about it.

yeah what are the. rumors that there's a camp 7 the secret. cam 7. yeah rul got the impression they were. supposed to act as if it wasn't worth. thinking about like it might not even be. real doesn't exist don't even ask about. it it's a media it's a media thing like. a media myth yep and it was violently. made sure that we didn't know anything. it was like you don't know anything. don't say you know anything Colonel. Heath is the only one who could talk.

about it you know. nothing but he said they did know about. Camp 7 the existence of Camp 7 had been. reported nearly 8 years before a simple. Google search would surface a rash of. information about Camp. 7 the stuff Rell had learned in his. public affairs training about. transparency and Truth in journalism he. took it seriously but now he was. starting to feel uncomfortable we didn't. have this experience of. of being shady we didn't have this.

experience of you know telling lies. there was a. point um where we all were so drained. that that's when a lot of us signed up. to do that secret mission that I told. you about the secret mission after the. [Music]. break.

R's secret mission came a few months. into his deployment he didn't really. know what he was signing up for he just. knew it was a chance to get away from. the tours and the reporters and work. inside the prison the mission was combat. camera it's not specific to Guantanamo. it's a regular military job instead of. carrying a weapon during an operation. you carry a camera to document it for. the commanders and for po it I suppose. although the dod has never released.

combat camera recordings from the. prison Raul's job on combat camera was. to film The detainees who were on Hunger. Strike as they were forced from their. cells and then force fed he didn't. really have a problem with the idea of. force feeding the hunger Strikers it was. an act of protest and so the military. had to keep them alive I mean how what. what are they going to do what could you. imagine the story that gets out if a. detane died on our watch because they. starved to. death during his shifts rul would sit in.

the combat camera office until A call. came in he'd make his way to the cell. block in a golf cart and then wearing a. face shield for protection he would film. the guards as they burst into a prisoner. cell strapped The Prisoner to a board. and carried him. out next the guards would put the. prisoner in a feeding chair his arms. legs and head all fastened to the chair. with. straps once the prisoner was secured and. couldn't move the medic snaked a feeding. tube up his nose and down his throat.

into his stomach and pumped the insur or. whatever nutrition drink they were using. at the time into his. body R filmed the whole. procedure sometimes as the prisoners. were being force-fed they would speak. directly into his camera they would talk. they would be like you know why am I. still here can you send me home you know. I don't want to be here anymore you know. I'm just like you I have a son who's. your age. [Music]. and. there was a certain one that would. always talk to me and talk at me cuz he.

was used to combat camera so he would. talk at me and tell me to save him and. to show those videos to the public and. [Music]. yeah I think in the moment I was just. very numb to it huh at that time I was. just numb to. it but he says he kind of had to force. himself to be numb a vague unease was. floating around in his psyche it was.

easier to ignore. it and that worked okay until one day. his perspective on the military and on. Guantanamo. shifted what happened was he got in. trouble for something that had nothing. to do with combat. camera Raul's roommate told his. commanding officer he thought Raul was. having an affair with one of Raul's. friends rul was married and adultery is. a big no no in the. military an investigation was launched. rul was put on probation for 60 days and.

was passed over for. promotion then months later rul got in. trouble again for failing a breathalyzer. test all of this was a shock he says he. wasn't having an affair his roommate was. just homophobic and he says he'd only. had one glass of wine that they gave him. a second breathalyzer and he passed but. his commanding officer punished him. anyway he had devoted years of his life. to the military he believed in the. military lived by its definitions of. good and.

bad now suddenly he was on the outside. of the good guys club and being on the. outside he started looking at things on. the inside. differently so when Sarah asked r that. question you heard earlier about whether. he ever struggled over the imprisonment. of the detainees and he gave her that. pained answer he says what was actually. going on was he was starting to glitch. to ask himself those same questions. Sarah was asking everyone he was. starting to feel complicit in what he.

called stealing people's. lives soon after we met him Raul and his. unit returned to Arizona when they had. first deployed to Guantanamo Raul was a. cheerful confident guy a model Soldier. by the time he left I came away thinking. that I was a piece of. [ __ ] a few months after he got home R. says he had a panic attack and. eventually got a diagnosis of PTSD from. Afghanistan and Guantanamo. which is striking considering in 2011.

and 2012 when Raul was in Afghanistan we. were actively fighting a war there. hundreds of Americans were killed in. Afghanistan during those two years and. then here he was at Caribbean Guantanamo. Bay where he could SI P coladas in the. sunshine and go to the beach if he. wanted and he comes home and falls apart. I think it's weird that I don't have any. negative ties to what happened in. Afghanistan and what happened in Kosovo. and I assume because I trained for those.

possibilities we go through we have a. simulation of what it's like to be. flipped over in a truck sideways and. upside down and you have to navigate. yourself and unbuckle yourself inside of. a of a humbe like those are the. trainings we do so I was trained for. Afghanistan I was trained for Kosovo you. cannot train for Guantanamo. Bay. you cannot train for a thing if you.

don't know what it is if the people. around you aren't being honest about the. whole trembling heart of the Endeavor. what made Guantanamo so confusing was. that to satisfy our terrified post 911. needs we had to shove aside the old. time- tested rules about how to treat. War prisoners and for the ordinary. people who had to operate inside the new. rules there was a gap between what they. were being told and what they were. seeing for themselves. thousands upon thousands of military. personnel hundreds of prisoners.

everybody trying to bridge that Gap. everybody scrambling through the same. experiment this season of Cal a history. of Guantanamo told by people who know. things the rest of us don't about the. consequences of an improvised justice. system it's going to be six stories. starting with a guy who acted out the. stuff of nightmares which at the time. all part of his job that's next. time.

serials produced by Jessica Weissberg. Dana Chivas and me our editor is Julie. Snyder additional reporting by cor. Courier factchecking by Ben faen music. supervision sound design and mixing by. by Phoebe Wang original score by Sophia. de Alexandre editing help from Alvin MTH.

Jen Guera and Ira Glass our contributing. editors are Carol Rosenberg and Rosina. Ali additional research by Emma gillo. and Amir kafaji our standards editor is. Susan wesling legal review by elamine. sumar the art for our show comes from. Pablo Delan and MOX gutter additional. production from Daniel gimt the. supervising producer for serial. Productions is inde chubu our executive. assistant is Mac Miller Sam doick is. Deputy managing editor of the New York. Times special thanks to Katie mingle.

Alysa ship Anita bajo David Ken Bal. Elizabeth Davis Moore Nina lassam and. Michelle. [Music]. Shepard.