Exporting America’s Immigration Problem

from The New York Times I'm Rachel. Abrams this is the. [Music]. daily since taking office president. Trump's plan to deport millions of. undocumented people keeps running into. new barriers and it's forced the White. House to come up with more and more. Creative Solutions to fulfill his. promise today my colleagues Julie. turkowitz and hemed Ali aiz on one of. the more innovative and controversial.

Solutions so. far it's Monday February. [Music]. 24th Julie we've had you on the show. before talking about immigration which. is obviously a huge priority for. president Trump in his first week alone. he suspended the Asylum program he said. that no new people would cross over the. border and on top of all of that he. pledged to deport millions of people who. were already in the country.

which is a huge and really complicated. thing to undertake so can you just. explain to us what have we seen so far. and what does that tell us about how the. new Administration has begun tackling. this issue so president Trump has this. major challenge which is that his. administration wants to deport a lot of. people and wants to deport them quickly. but there are some people from some. countries that it is very difficult for. the United States to send back to their.

homelands for example the US does not. have good relationships with some. countries and so this makes deportations. hard MH and so what the Trump. Administration has done in these past. few weeks is convince other countries. specifically countries in Central. America to accept deportees who come. from a totally different part of the. world Africa Asia the Middle East and.

this is a crucial development that could. allow the Trump Administration to expand. and speed up deportation and earlier. this month my colleagues and I actually. got to see the beginning of this. strategy up close tell us a little bit. about that what happened so on Wednesday. night my colleague Hamed received a tip. that a group of uh recently arrived. migrants in the United States were going. to be deported to.

Panama so I'm based here in Colombia and. my photographer colleague and I F G Ros. decide we are going to get on a plane. and try and track down the people who. have recently been deported we arrive in. Panama we hear from a source that the. 300 or so people are staying at a hotel. in downtown Panama City called the hotel.

decapolis you know Google says it's a. fourstar hotel sort of in a touristy. commercial area and we arrive at this. hotel it's a pretty nice place there's a. sushi bar in the. lobby and we try to get in but we. eventually can't get further than the. lobby and hotel staff tells us that that. is because there are hundreds of. recently arrived migrants staying in the. hotel. [Music].

so you're able to confirm that they're. there are you able to also talk to them. no I mean we have this journalistic. challenge because we are not permitted. to get further than the lobby and the. Deportes they're not allowed to leave so. federo and I leave the hotel and we. discover something very interesting. which is that the decapolis hotel is a. soaring Glass Tower and so all of these.

people are essentially being held in. glass boxes and we can see them from the. sidewalk and we can see in the windows. in this sort of Glass Tower that some. people are speaking on the telephone and. so federo has this idea why don't we. hold up a sign and we write a sort of. impromptu sign that says press across. several pieces of white printer paper as. well as my phone number and we.

essentially lay this sign out on the. sidewalk sit and wait for a phone. call all of a sudden a whole bunch of. people begin to appear and one of those. people is a man who we eventually learn. is named Mr Wang he sees Federico's. camera he sees my notebook and he sort. of you know gets excited and on his his.

window he writes China in. toothpaste and eventually we able to. connect over text message I can only. speak Chinese but what I discover is. that Mr won doesn't speak English and so. he's sending us audio files using a. translator app on his phone my friend's. passport and mobile phone are. confiscated by them and he tells us that. official have taken away his passport.

his friends passports and most of his. friends cell phones there are. approximately 230 here includes women. and children he says that there are. hundreds of people in the hotel that. they have been isolated that they don't. have access to lawyers we can't move at. all you can't go downstairs only waiting. for waiting for waiting eventually we. learn from others that at least one. migrant woman tried to commit suicide by.

taking pills and we hear reports that at. least one person has tried to escape and. has broken his leg in the process so. it's pretty clear from Mr Wong and from. others that there is a lot of. [Music]. desperation did you manage to speak with. anybody else in the hotel yeah our team. ends up making contact with an Iranian. woman named.

[Music]. Artemis Artemis is inside the hotel. Federico and I can see her through the. window and she tells my colleagues in. fary that she is an English. teacher she's 27 years old and she's a. convert to Christianity which in Iran is. punishable by Death.

and so she had decided to come to the. United States and to claim. Asylum she knows that Donald Trump is on. a mission to deport migrants but she. doesn't think that that includes her. because she has heard that the people. who are being deported are criminals and. she thinks I'm not a criminal I'm an. asylum Seeker I have documents showing.

that I converted to Christianity and she. thinks that that will be enough uh to. help her seek. Asylum so Artemus takes this long series. of flights from Iran to Mexico she pays. some $3,000 to a Smuggler to get her. essentially over the wall and into the. United States where she is then. apprehended by authorities.

she's detained for several days and then. one day Shackled. handcuffed and the government tells her. that they're putting her on a military. plane then she arrives in Panama. [Laughter].

okay so you've made contact with these. people they've told you their stories. but what do officials say is going on. here so what the United States is saying. is that these are people who are in the. United States illegally uh that these. people do not have a valid case for. Asylum and thus they should be deported. and Panama is the country that they have. decided to deport them to the government. of Panama has said that as a favor the. government of Panama decided okay we can. take some of the Deportes while it might.

seem like this is a detention the. government of Panama is describing the. decision to hold these people in this. hotel as a security measure to protect. the migrants so Julie this sounds like. it would be really confusing for the. people in this hotel how long are they. kept there so this group is detained in. the hotel for about a week and during. the course of this week this un. organization the international. Organization for migration is working.

inside the hotel with the Panamanian. government and they start to offer some. of the migrants a trip home they say. look if you would like to go home to. your country we can help you we will. facilitate that and about 170 of the 300. people sign these papers but there's a. group of people that says no it's. dangerous for me to go home I cannot go. back to my country. and so those people they're still in the.

hotel and one night they get a knock on. the door and it's Panamanian authorities. and they're saying pack your bags you're. leaving and that includes Artemis that. includes a group of other Iranians that. she is with they're very scared and. they're LED downstairs packed onto three. different buses they're not told. anything about where they're going an. hour passes 2 hours pass 3 hours pass.

and finally the doors open and they find. that it is morning and they are at a. camp at the edge of this jungle called. the daring Gap the daring Gap that is. something that we have covered with you. on the show before this is the only way. for people in South America to cross. into Central America by foot and it's. incredibly dangerous and so now what. you're describing is these folks are. being sent to a camp right by it yeah so.

think of a sort of dirt expanse a fence. 2 to 3 m High surrounded by barbed wire. and Artemis and other people taken to. this Camp say they are given a stale. piece of bread a bottle of water and. they see these structures that look like. shipping containers that they assume are. going to be their shelters for the. foreseeable future.

and looking around seeing what she's. seeing does any of this change artemis's. mind about whether she wants to return. to Iran so even though the conditions in. this Camp are very bad Artemis is firm. that she is not going to go back to Iran. she's told by an official there at the. camp that there might be an option of. applying for asylum in a different. country that is not the us but it's just. really not clear for now this is her new.

home right the the only thing that is. clear is that she is not going back to. the United States. [Music]. absolutely she's not returning to the. United States she is Panama's problem. now and Panama has to figure out what to. do with her. [Music].

and what we're seeing here is that the. Trump Administration wants to send a. message to the world that it's not just. criminals who are going to be deported. but it's any migrant any Asylum Seeker. who shows up at the US border asking for. protection and I think that this is. exactly what president Trump wanted and. it is exactly what many Americans.

[Music]. wanted after the break my colleague HED. Ali aiz on how this new strategy could. accelerate the mass deportations that. President Trump has promised. [Music].

we'll be right. back so hammed thank you for being here. thank you for having me we just heard. from our colleague Julie about all of. these people who were picked up in the. US and flown to Panama and I want to. understand how this fits into Trump's. broader strategy on immigration which. you cover so can you unpack all of this. a bit for. us definitely the Trump Administration.

has been quite vocal about wanting to do. a mass deportation campaign historic. deportations never seen before millions. of people and thus far the pace of. removals is not something that is. extremely high or is reaching the levels. that President Trump had promised and. we've seen already some Trump. Administration officials including his. borders are Tom homman say that they. need a higher pace of arrests higher.

pace of enforcement and deportations so. we can see that there's already some. frustration at the pace which feels sort. of surprising because I feel like the. news recently has been full of stories. about ice raids and detentions all. around the country there have been raids. in Chicago Los Angeles we recently saw. New York city mayor Eric Adams let ice. into Rikers the jail here so just. explain how exactly is all of this. actually much slower than it appears.

yeah the process of deportation is. actually quite complicated and what ice. and uh the Trump Administration is. running into is that it's one thing to. arrest hundreds of people in an. operation it's another thing to take. those people who are arrested and. actually Deport them to their home. country that process can take a long. time so making an arrest does not equal. an an immediate. deportation and some of the things that. are in the way right now are the fact. that ice has a limited number of.

detention beds across the United States. ice has been holding around 40,000. people for the past couple weeks and you. need to hold people in ice detention in. order to deport them and on top of that. some countries are very difficult if not. nearly impossible to deport to there are. countries that the United States does. not have formal diplomatic relations. with such as Afghanistan or Iran where. ice officials cannot send chartered ice.

planes to those countries then there are. others like India and China who make the. deportation process quite complicated. and it seems like with this Panama. flight they're turning more aggressively. to getting other countries to take. multiple flights of migrants from across. the world so in other words what we. heard about that was happening in Panama. is almost like a workaround to some of. what you've just described as the. difficulties with deportations and as.

Julie explained to us earlier by flying. people to places like Panama we're. essentially making these people somebody. else's problem but I just want to be. clear in understanding sort of what's. different here because the US has been. doing a version of this in recent Years. in Mexico we Deport non-mexicans to. Mexico so how is this different. exactly the recent years the Biden. Administration got Mexico to take back. migrants from Mostly Spanish-speaking.

countries such as Venezuela Cuba and. Nicaragua and other Central American. countries in this instance Panama is. taking migrants from across the globe. mostly from countries in the eastern. hemisphere including Iran Pakistan India. and. Afghanistan a lot of these migrants do. not speak Spanish and the scope of. countries involved is unlike anything. we've seen before and one thing to keep. in mind here is that the negotiations.

involved and the way this came about is. much different as well with Mexico there. was a real formal deal in place where. the bid Administration officials. repeatedly said that Mexico in order to. take back migrants from other countries. also wanted the Biden Administration to. allow these migrants to have a chance to. enter the country through different. legal Pathways they were able to sign up. to show up to a Port of Entry later on.

and enter the United States that way but. in this case we don't really understand. what the deal was between Panama and the. United States what do you mean by that. well obviously president Trump has been. talking repeatedly about taking the. Panama Canal and the government of. Panama is quite aware of what has. happened to other countries who've run. into the Hornets Nest that is the Trump. Administration and immigration. enforcement we saw with Colombia.

president Trump threatening Visa. sanctions and all kinds of consequences. for uh Colombia pushing back on a. military deportation flight that was set. to land in uh their country elsewhere we. see tariffs threatened on Mexico and. Canada because the Trump Administration. has said they are not doing enough on. migration and it serves as a real. current in many ways that is forcing.

countries like Panama to get on board. and play ball and be willing to at a. moment's notice take multiple flights of. migrants from across the world so in. other words Trump doesn't necessarily. have to come out and threaten them. they're looking at what's happened with. all these other countries and thinking. like what's going to happen to us if we. don't take this plane full of people. exactly the president has been set and. recently uh Secretary of State Rubio. went to Panama to discuss. migration and afterward these flights of.

migrants from across the globe landed in. Panama and last week we saw Costa Rica. come out publicly and say that they were. going to take migrants from the Eastern. Hemisphere as well and uh more than a. hundred of those migrants mostly. families arrived in Costa Rica last week. okay so for Panama and presumably. anybody else that makes a sort of. agreement they've agreed to accept these. flights what does that mean for the. people who were actually sent there it's.

a major change for these people in the. United States when migrants are in. detention they have the ability to at. least ostensibly find a lawyer connect. with immigrant Advocates try to find. some form of a process potentially an. Immigration Court where they can seek. Asylum the fact that the migrants are in. Panama they are not under us law anymore. they are not given the same scope of. possibilities that are offered in the. United States instead they are.

transported to a totally different. process they don't know whether or not. they will have access to an attorney. what the process to get asylum in Panama. would look like there's a lot of. confusion involved and it's much. different than it would have been had. they remained in the United States and. just to be clear is it legal to take. somebody who's come to the US seeking. Asylum and basically drop them somewhere. entirely different with a different. Asylum system and possibly different set. of Rights I'm not sure the United States.

and the Trump Administration has said. that these were formal removals and. Advocates are certainly concerned about. what's happened here really uh. questioning the the process that was. involved here and are looking into it. but whether or not it's legal. potentially could play out in federal. courts in the future and presumably take. a very long time while the Trump. Administration expands this program with. other countries definitely I spoke. recently with President Trump's borders.

are Tom hman who told me that they are. having active conversations with. countries about safe third country deals. allowing the Trump Administration to. send migrants to countries across the. world and it wouldn't surprise me uh if. some of these conversations were uh with. countries in Europe and elsewhere in the. Western Hemisphere but the success of. this type of effort will not just depend.

on expanding the number of countries. willing to take in migrants but. expanding the nationalities that are. involved in this deportation effort what. do you mean by that well it would be not. just Iranians or migrants from Pakistan. it would be other migrants who suddenly. show up at the Border in higher numbers. and any potential problem that they have. with deporting those migrants they could. find another country to take them in you. know I really have to say that just the.

idea that we would take somebody that. crossed into the United States from one. continent and Deport them to an entirely. different continent where they don't. know anyone speak the language have any. resources that just seems like a much. more extreme tactic than anything I've. ever heard of discussed with us. immigration policy definitely this is. unprecedented and unlike anything that. I've seen before where migrants from. Iran India Pakistan beist. are dumped in.

Panama and I think it serves as a clear. deterrent to migrants from across the. globe but what you have to remember is. that if the United States and the Trump. Administration is able to build an. efficient deportation system where. people are picked up and remove from the. country. quickly no matter what conditions. they're in and he doesn't face Pol iCal. backlash then that'll be a massive win.

for him and all of his supporters who've. wanted him to begin this Mass. deportation. [Music]. process hammed thank you so much thank. you for having me. [Music].

here's what else you need to know today. on Saturday Elon Musk alarmed workers. across the federal government with an. email that asked them to summarize what. they'd accomplished last week and on. social media he warned that a failure to. reply would be taken as a. resignation but on Sunday some Trump. appointed agency leaders pushed back. including the FBI director cash Patel. and the Director of National. Intelligence telsey gabard who told. employees not to respond at all the push.

back marks the first significant test of. how far Elon musk's power will. [Music]. extend and over the weekend the Vatican. said that Pope Francis is suffering from. initial mild kidney failure in addition. to a serious respiratory illness and. remains in critical condition the. 88-year-old pontiff was alert and well. oriented they said as he continues. treatment in a hospital in Rome. [Music].

today's episode was produced by Carlos. prto Shannon Lynn will Reed and Alex. Stern it was edited by Maria burn. contains original music by Maran loano. Rowan nisto Dan Powell and Pat mccusker. and was engineered by Chris Wood our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansburg of. wonderly special thanks to farnaz fi. federo Rios yasi Shafi and and Ang.

[Music]. Le that's it for the daily I'm Rachel. Abrams see you tomorrow. [Music].