El Salvador Decimated Gangs. But at What Cost?

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily El Salvador has experienced a. remarkable transformation what had been. one of the most violent countries in the. world has become incredibly safe today. my colleague Natalie kroof on the cost. of that transformation to the people of. El Salvador and the man at the center of.

it president naib buele who claimed. victory in an election on. [Music]. Sunday it's Wednesday February. [Music]. 7th Natalie hi hi Sabrina it's nice to. have you back on the show as a guest and. not a host it's great to be here so. Natalie you've spent the past few months. reporting on El Salvador tell us what. you've been finding in your reporting.

yeah so I've been really interested in. El Salvador since I became the bureau. chief in Mexico City I mean this is this. tiny country the smallest country in. Central America that now has this broad. resonance across the region because it. has undergone a remarkable. transformation in the last few years now. to really understand the magnitude of. this change of what's happened you have. to remember that El Salvador was long. known as one of the world's most violent.

countries government troops in El. Salvador nowhere in the world today is. there a fiercer bloodier battle for. control of a Nation this is violence. that traces itself back to this bloody. Civil War that the country fought it. ended in. 1992 it sent hundreds of thousands of. Salvadorans fleeing to the United States. where they developed these street gangs. in Salvador they fight against each.

other but in Los Angeles they stand side. by side on street corners hoping to find. a day's work you know the MS13 gang the. 18th Street gang this government video. shows some of the arrestes getting on a. plane being deported and when the US. started deporting Salvadorans back home. in this case back to El Salvador and. leaving the plane free of handcuffs and. leg chains they brought the gangs with. them and they grew them these gangs you. know they started dominate vast swaths.

of the country and they really divided. the country up into their own thiefs and. they ruled over their Turf with extreme. violence I mean the level of brutality. that people were subjected to was just. remarkable the Central American nation. of El Salvador has seen a terrifying. search in violence this year and they. kind of created these invisible borders. across the country I mean if you lived. in a neighborhood controlled by one gang. you could not cross in to a neighborhood.

controlled by the rival gang even if you. had no gang affiliation because doing so. could get you killed wow and people I. talked to in El Salvador said they. couldn't go to the police the police. were seen as untrustworthy in some cases. corrupt if you went to the police people. told me the police would point you out. to the gang and that could get you. killed so for many Salvadorans they. really felt they had absolutely no. [Music]. recourse.

[Music]. but now in the past two years you've. seen this Total Transformation of the. country and the gangs that used to. dominate have been decimated so it's. open Warfare among the gangs and this is. misery for the population of El Salvador. and now you're seeing this remarkable. transformation as you just told me how. did we get here from.

there well a lot of it comes down to. this one. [Applause]. guy naib. [Applause]. [Music]. bu he's an unlikely kind of political. phenomenon he's the descendant of a. family of Palestinian migrants he grew. up in an upper middle- class. neighborhood he was educated at an elite. Bilingual School he started out as a.

publicist on political campaigns and. really gets his start. so you know at the age of 30 when he. becomes mayor of a small town but his. rise is. meteoric he soon becomes mayor of the. capital San Salvador he's this you know. backwards hat wearing digital guy I mean. he understands social media he.

understands marketing he is able to sell. himself super effectively and in 2018 he. decides to run for president and he. really builds himself as this change. candidate. the you know he is going to break with. the corrupt politics of the past bu. capitalized on disenchantment with the. country's two main parties which have. been in power for nearly three decades. and one of his key promises is he's.

going to address the crime. [Music]. problem and in 2019 he's elected by a. pretty significant. margin so what does he do once he gets. into office so one of the first things. we hear about on buuk Kell's crime. strategy is that Salvadoran media. reports that his government is actually. negotiating with gang leaders in prison.

and this is later confirmed by us. officials they say that buell's. Administration negotiated with gang. leaders in prison for a reduction in. homicides in exchange for prison. benefits and other Financial incentives. now murders go down and and that. actually you know helps his popularity. which is Skyhigh at this point and he. starts to consolidate power his party. wins a super majority in 2021 in the.

legislative assembly and that allows. them to make pretty radical changes they. dismiss top Supreme Court judges they. dismiss the attorney general who was. investigating his government for. corruption it gives Buel a lot of. control over the country and is this. because he was able to make this deal. with the gangs like kind of buying them. off in a way well that's what the local. media and the US government says I mean. he denies the charge that he negotiated. with the gangs but it's very clear that.

the security situation which has calmed. down at this point is a big part of his. appeal but that calm is broken in March. of 2022 when there is an explosion of. gang violence over one weekend 62. homicides on Saturday the most in one. single day in more than 20 years The. Gangs just went on a killing spree some. theorize that maybe this PCT that he. allegedly came to with the gangs you.

know broke apart but in any case the. result is that his administration. responds with. Force what do they do they impose a. state of emergency and this is a really. extreme situation an increased Army. presence on the streets in El Salvador. an iMed the government send soldiers. onto the streets and launch a campaign. of mass arrests the president president. and Congress passing a temporary move to.

impose restrictions on assembly extend. police detentions and allow The. Intercept of communications like phone. calls the government suspends key. constitutional rights indefinitely they. say they've arrested over 6,000. suspected gang members tracking them in. neighborhoods inside homes and even. hiding underground thousands and. thousands of people who are put behind. bars with no due. process the National Police touting the.

efforts on social media all week using. the hash war against. [Music]. gangs and as you can imagine this really. quickly transforms El Salvador it. transforms El Salvador into what sounds. like a police state what did that feel. like for people in El Salvador so I've. gone to El Salvador several times over. the last two years to try to to. understand that question.

Sabrina and in my most recent trip in. January I met this family that really. encapsulates the. complexity baked into how people feel. about. this I met them at their home this. modest house three rooms just outside of. San. Salvador.

and sat down there with Irma who's. 56 and her husband Mario and they have. two. [Music]. sons okay Irma has lived in El Salvador. her whole life she makes and sells corn. tortillas for a living and she really. lived through the world worst of this. country's.

violence she says the community where. she lived which was gang controlled was. just a. nightmare she says gang members would. you know enter her home without asking. for permission when they were. hiding you know they would run on top of. the roofs she show her room which is.

next to the window she said she was. afraid that bullets would come. in but even with all of that what. weighed on her the most is that she said. it was too dangerous for her to go visit. her mom because her mom lived in a. neighborhood controlled by a rival. gang and so when bu enters the. scene she says she has a lot of hope she.

voted for. him and when the state of emergency gets. announced she said she noticed her. community just radically. Chang and things got better really. quickly but then a month later this. on the gangs really comes to her.

[Music]. doorstep her son Mario who's 26 had come. over to help her wash the corn and. prepare the dough that she needs to sell. her. tortillas and he tells her that he's. going to go get a haircut because he's. looking kind of Shaggy and he has work. the next day.

and and a few hours later her husband. gets a call from Mario saying that he's. been. arrested and so her husband rushes to. the. scene he asks the police for answers he. begs for answers why is my son being. taken away what is going on the police. brush him off and brush him off and then. they directly tell. him look stop asking questions or else. we're going to detain you too and was.

there a chance he was in fact a gang. member well IR is adamant that no he's. not involved with the. gangs she showed me documents showing. that he worked at a call center that he. had no criminal record but at the time. and remember these were Mass arrests and. there was no due process this is is the. other prong of buell's security strategy.

which is that there is a suspension of. constitutional rights human rights. groups say that there were thousands of. people who were not gang members who. were still thrown Behind Bars and that's. of more than 75,000 who have been. arrested during the state of emergency. there have been reports that prisoners. have been tortured and deprived of food. inside prisons and you know really what. happens is that you get arrested you. disappear into the prison system. and you're never really heard from again.

I mean this is the case for Irma and her. family for almost 2 years they have not. heard from or seen Mario they have no. idea how he's doing and that includes. his 8-year-old son who asks about Mario. all the time and misses him a. lot it's been a huge wound for the.

family her son's house is just like a. few houses down from. hers and we went there and looked at it. and it's like this time capsule they've. barely touched it since he was taken. away we're here in Mario's. room where he has drawings by his son of.

a coffee mug and a blue blob and a. submarine it's all dusty I mean she says. she can't even go. there you. know and while we were there she just. broke. down. [Music].

and Natalie what does she say about buk. I mean she voted for him right well. that's a thing this whole time you know. I've wondering what does she think about. the president who in many ways is. responsible for her son's arrest and the. thing. is she doesn't blame him.

in fact she says she supports everything. the president. [Music]. does we'll be right. back.

so Natalie help me understand this here. she's still supportive of buou despite. the fact that she has lost her son whom. she says is innocent yeah I think Irma. represents how a lot of Salvadorans feel. I've heard this sentiment a lot in my. trips to the country and the way she. explains it is that first of all she. kind of takes it out of bu's. hands.

mhm she says look what bu said was to go. after guilty people he wasn't the one. actually making the arrests you know. there were other people on the ground. doing this and if mistakes were made by. them well those were mistakes that they. made not Buel it's not his fault it kind. of reminds me Natalie of Russia and the. way Russians see Putin that he's. floating above it all he knows best you. know it's just his kind of corrupt. minions who were bungling the job when.

they carry it out yeah she has absolute. faith in buell's intentions and in what. he wanted to. [Music]. do and that kind of explains the other. piece of this for. Irma she's a very religious person and. she sees all of this as part of God's. plan for her I mean she sees herself as. suffering the consequences of a broader.

direction for the country that is. overall. good I mean she basically refers to. herself as collateral damage to this. bigger kind of change in the country and. that change is one she really supports.

and so this thing that happened with her. son is causing her a lot of pain but it. doesn't make her question the bigger. purpose of it. all wow that is extraordinary I mean. she's choosing her community above.

herself and it's probably also a measure. of the sheer desperation that. Salvadorans had to escape Lawless. violence right that state of being that. was so painful for them for so many. years absolutely this is a population. that was living under extreme violence. for years and years and years and to now. have that removed from the picture I.

mean for many people that's worth the. price of unjust arrests or of having the. military on the streets and when you. look at what bukele has done it really. goes Way Beyond the state of. emergency his party replaced Supreme. Court judges who then reinterpreted the. country's Constitution to allow him to. run for real. election legal Scholars say this is.

explicitly banned in the Constitution. but he did it anyway and so people. inside the country and outside are. looking at what bu's doing and saying. this is chipping away at the foundations. of. democracy they're wondering how. Democratic is the country. anymore but when you ask people who. lived in communities that were really.

kind of War zones in the past they sound. a lot like Irma and what was Bill's. response to the accusations that he. might be tugging the country away from. democracy that the system of democracy. in El Salvador was in danger under. him well right after I talked to. Irma I went to the residence of the vice. president Felix Felix Ooa he's a. 22-year-old politician he's someone.

who's been in this world for a long time. and I wanted to ask him about these. criticisms and we sat down and the first. thing we talked about were cases like. IRAs how the government justifies. sweeping up so many people that are not. gang. members what said was we're in a war and.

in a war there's collateral. damage there is a margin of error so. he's acknowledging that mistakes have. been made essentially but saying this is. the price of something that is changing. the. country and he's saying look the. innocent people will eventually be. released the government has released.

7,000 people from jails but human rights. groups say thousands more remain Behind. Bars and are not gang members and when I. asked him about the charge that his. government was undermining. democracy he told me something pretty. remarkable what he said was what. democracy. huh.

what democracy did we have in this. country that left us with tens of. thousands of dead that just serve to. benefit corrupt politicians that's the. Democracy you're so concerned. about he said to the people that say. that we are dismantling. democracy I say yes.

we're not dismantling it he said we are. eliminating it he said the system that. existed before was rotten corrupt and. bloody. New York Times and buk was asked about.

these comments in a news conference on. Sunday shortly before he claimed a. resounding victory in the election the. votes are still being counted but his. win looked decisive and he. said we're not eliminating democracy. because El Salvador has never had. democracy.

he said this is the first time the. country has ever had democracy okay. which is not actually true because. obviously they've had elections so. what's he talking about like what does. he mean there I think it really comes. down to how this government defines. democracy you know critics point out. that there are really no checks on his. power nothing stopping him from doing. whatever he wants in the country but he. says look this is the will of the people. we have popular support we won. reelection and when you ask people on.

the streets people will say look these. are the results we have been craving. this security situation for us is. priceless and it's not just in El. Salvador that he has this appeal bukel. has become a model across the region a. reference point you have politicians in. Honduras the Dominican Republic Ecuador. Colombia folks promising to emulate his. model and in some case putting pieces of. it to work in their own countries which. makes me wonder Natalie how is El.

Salvador being seen by the us right now. I mean I imagine you know one fewer. democracy in its backyard is probably. not a great thing is the Biden. Administration talking about this I mean. in the beginning of Bull's term the. Biden Administration was very vocal. pushing back on some of what we're. seeing as attacks on Democracy but over. the last year or so not so much part of. the issue here is that the security. situation analysts say has contributed.

to a real drop in illegal migration from. El Salvador which is something that the. Biden Administration cares about a lot. right you have fewer Salvadorans going. to the US border that's a factor and I. think there's a broader understanding. that look people are voting for this so. what is it going to look like if we. start criticizing it from the outside. mean at the same time there are people. former officials who are telling me we. are enabling a one-man authoritarian.

state to develop in this. region and this leads to the broader. point right which is you know it's true. that people did vote for him he is. popularly elected people are choosing. him because they're so glad to feel safe. even if they're living in a police state. but I guess the question is what happens. when they have a different thing they. want to solve for at The Ballot Box well. well yeah I mean that's a really big. question Sabrina and I don't think.

anybody knows the answer but the fear. especially among critics of buele is. that by the time that people become. satisfied with safety and then maybe. have some dissatisfactions with other. things what happens when people start to. get frustrated with the lack of job. opportunities or maybe they grow tired. of a situation in which all these people. are being arrested or maybe they grow. tired of the military being on the. streets. the fear is by that point there won't be.

any avenues for real descent how will. people really be able to exercise their. opposition to a government that maybe. they're not so happy with right it'll be. too late that's the. [Music]. fear Natalie thank you thanks. Sabrina.

we'll be right. back here's what else you should know. today on Tuesday on this vote the Y's. are 214 and the Nays are 216 the. resolution is not. adopted in a stunning defeat for House. Republicans and their leader speaker. Mike Johnson the chamber rejected imp. impeachment charges against Alejandro. mayorcas the homeland security secretary.

the vote failed after a small group of. Republicans broke with their party and. refused to support what amounted to a. partisan indictment of President Biden's. immigration policies the rejection was. especially embarrassing for Johnson who. had expressed confidence that it would. pass and because Republicans had been. promising the impeachment for more than. a. year and a federal appeals court. rejected Donald Trump's claim of. immunity in the case of his attempts to.

overturn the 2020 election a three-judge. panel in the US court of appeals for the. District of Columbia circuit ruled. unanimously that Trump must go on trial. marking an important moment in American. Juris Prudence as the first time an. appeals court had ever answered the. question of whether former presidents. can escape being held criminally. accountable for things they did in. office. today's episode was produced by Carlos.

prto CLA tennis skar and will Reed it. was edited by Lexi Deo and Michael. benois with research help from Susan Lee. contains original music by Rowan Nimo. Marian Lozano Dan Powell and Diane Wong. and was engineered by Chris Wood our. theme music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly.

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina. Tavern see you. [Music]. tomorrow.