Deception and Dependency: Inside the Latest Epstein Files

[music]. >> From The New York Times, I'm Michael. Barbaro. This is The Daily. Another [music] Epstein files dumped. today, and not just a dump, it was a. blizzard of files. [music] More than 3. million pages are now being posted to. the Justice Department [music] website. The latest government release of. documents related to Jeffrey Epstein, [music].

the single largest release so far, has. revealed the depth and intensity of his. relationship with the global elite long. after he became [music] a sex offender. Some of the names mentioned in the files. dumped today: Bill Gates, Elon Musk, and. Steve Bannon. Peter Mandelson, a former. senior power broker for the governing. British Labour Party, and an. ex-ambassador to the US. Exposing. intimate communications with the world's. most powerful business [music] leaders. Dr. Peter Attia, the celebrity longevity.

influencer, appears in the files more. than 1,700 [music]. times. In 2015, Attia wrote, "The. biggest problem with becoming friends. with you, the life you lead is so. outrageous, and yet I cannot tell. [music] a soul." Top government. officials, prestigious academics, and. renowned experts. Some of the people, Noam Chomsky, that was like the deal. breaker for me. Noam Chomsky, Deepak, Deepak Chopra. >> [music]. >> And in many cases, contradicting years.

of their careful denials about their. closeness to [music] Epstein. This is. not the end of the Epstein case. This is. just maybe the end of the beginning, but. this is actually going to drag on for. years as people sort through the. documents and connect the dots. Today, as the fallout [music] from the new. documents ricochets across the globe, I. gathered three of my colleagues, Deborah. Cayman, Nick Confessore, and Matt. Goldstein, to talk through [music].

what they found. It's Tuesday, >> [music]. >> February 10th. Deborah, Nick, Matt, thank you to the. three of you for being here. Thanks for. having us. Thank you. Good to be here. All three of you have spent the past. week or so reading through hundreds, maybe even thousands, of emails from the.

latest release of Epstein documents. And I want us to begin the conversation. with the release itself, the scope of. what the government has published, why. it's published it now, and what's. different about these documents from. what was released. in the previous batches. So, Deborah, can you just start right there? Yeah, I. mean, the thing that's most noteworthy. about this document release is its sheer. size. We're talking about more than 3. million pages of documents. There's also.

a lot of photos, a lot of videos. In tandem with its size is the amount of. chaos that came with this rollout. >> Mhm. The release itself was more than a month. after the government's self-imposed. deadline, and there were a lot of things. that went wrong with this release. There. were a lot of unredacted names of. victims that never should have made it. into the public, and they did. There. were images of women in the nude that. The New York Times found and flagged the. Justice Department that then had to be. pulled back. So, in addition to the fact. that it's just so much material to comb.

through, in that combing, there's been a lot of. things that never should have been. found. And Nick, 3 million pages. strongly suggests that we are just. beginning to wrap our heads and our arms. around what's. here. Absolutely. I mean, look, if we had 50. reporters reading 500 documents a day, and it would take us 4 months to get. through all the documents. >> Wow. And that's just to read them. To. make sense of them is actually a lot of. work because you have to cross-reference. who's being referred to. You can.

sometimes figure out who's been redacted. by looking at other emails with similar. information. It's a lot of work, but I. think we'll be seeing. the fruits of this exposure, all this. information for months. Matt, what time. period do these 3 million pages cover. and where does that time period line up. with our overall understanding of the. Epstein story and his criminality? It. lines up in theory going back to the. initial investigation in Florida in 2005. and then all the way through 2019.

But what's important is what you're. seeing here is not just things that were. directly related to the investigation. It's anything that was on his computer. So when they grabbed his computers and. his servers, that's why you're seeing a lot of emails. and financial records that wouldn't be. directly related to the investigation, but they're related to his life. So we. should think of these documents. as capturing the point at which Jeffrey. Epstein is absolutely an established.

public figure and one whose. behavior is acknowledged to be. very problematic. Yeah, yeah. Anything. after 2009 when he's already pled guilty. in Florida and he's had to register as a. sex offender. Anyone who's coming into. contact with him, they may not know all. the details, but they know they're. dealing with a registered sex offender. Got you. Okay, that is helpful context. I want to explain to listeners we asked. the three of you in preparation for this. conversation to think about themes that.

you identified in the documents that. you've gone through and to bring us. examples that illustrate those themes. And so I want to turn to that now. Nick, in terms of the themes, let's. start with you and the most important. people in this story, the women, the. victims. of Epstein's behavior. and the system that he created. I think. for a lot of readers and listeners, the. women have been somewhat invisible, right? Because they're victims of sexual. trafficking or abuse in many cases. We.

don't often see them in their own words. And what we see in these documents is. his correspondence with many of the. women he was trying to bring into his. orbit. As soon as he got out of jail in. 2009 and possibly before, he was. basically building or expanding a. virtual harem, a pipeline of young women. in their late teens and early 20s who. were mostly from Eastern Europe and. Russia. He had scouts roving around. these places to find him women. And.

every time he found a woman, he would. ask them to find him more women. And so you might ask, "Okay, so why do. these women comply?". The answer is that he had money and. influence and they usually had none. He bought them plane tickets. He provided them apartments. He offered. to pay for college or dental school. He. sent them to doctors or plastic. surgeons. And most of all, he dangled a. sense of opportunity and security. He had a place for them to stay. He had. people for them to meet. He would make. introductions to modeling agencies or.

producers or rich men. And we can see in. these emails these varying levels of. comfort on the part of the women. Some. of them. seem to take the arrangement at face. value. They're trading sex for money or. security or opportunity. Well, then give. us an example that demonstrates. Epstein's exploitation of these women's. circumstances. So here we have an. example. I'm not going to name her here. on the air, but she's a woman who has a. relationship with him that goes some. ways back. And in October 2011,

we are seeing sort of an end point in. the relationship. She's had it with him. She's had it because, according to her, she realizes that really his girlfriend. In this email, she's saying she spends. all her time with him. She doesn't. communicate with anybody else. She. doesn't see her friends or go on. vacations. She dresses like he tells her. to. She styles her hair like he tells. her to. She has sex with him when he. wants, massages when he wants, but she's. not getting what she thought she was.

promised in return. And she's furious. and she feels betrayed. She's saying, "I'm fed up with I'm fed up. I've been. used. You promised me to organize. appointments. This is probably Eastern. European or Russian with a doctor. You. promised me to introduce to. photographers, to some people from. Victoria's Secret, to some celebrity. Words stayed words.". Right? She's calling him on his. promises. And how does he respond? There's a phenomenon called DARVO in. psychology and abusive psychology where. the abuser sort of reverses the.

psychology and makes himself the victim. and his victim the aggressor. And that's. what he does here. He says, "I am and I have been a friend. I sent you to Moscow, but you cannot lie. to me and you lied to me. You lied to me. again. So, I will never help you ever. again.". So, in this one email, we really see how. Epstein controls these women and their. lives, incentivizes them with promises that. he's going to deliver something. in order to extract what he's getting in.

return, and then it seems in some sense doesn't. really deliver it and then when he's. held to account, turns things around on. them. That's right. He makes himself in. to the victim. And we see this. repeatedly in these emails. I've seen. similar exchanges throughout the emails. And along with that, Nick, you often. find. part of the abuses that it goes on for. many years after the women are even sort. of essentially discarded by Epstein. And. because they're so broken down and felt.

they had to depend on him, they will try. to come back. And you'll see emails. where these women will say, "I want to. come back." And his first response will. be, "Send nudes." I mean, it's this curt. kind of response. >> Send nudes. >> Right. Over and over again. And then. sometimes they'll send something, and. they'll say, "Not sexy enough." It's so. dismissive of these women as basically. purely being objects for him. Matt, the question that always comes up, and I think because Nick just described. this dynamic with women, it's the right. time to ask it, is do these new.

documents shed any light on the question. of whether or not Jeffrey Epstein ran a. pedophilic ring that trafficked underage. girls to those around him? In short, the answer is no. Basically, the 14- and 15- and. 16-year-old girls that we've heard about. were largely recruited for him. There's. nothing that's come up that really. indicate that those same girls were. being trafficked at the time to any. other men. And prosecutors took a look. at that in 2019 when he was arrested,

and they basically ruled that out. And. it's even a memo that's contained in. this latest batch of documents where. they said what they looked at and what. they did not find was evidence of the. pedophile ring. But what's important to. understand, again, the first time he went to jail in the. mid-late 2000s, it's on charges that he. is soliciting underage girls to get. massages. And when he gets out of jail, he appears. to change tactics. He seems to decide. he's going to be more careful about the.

law. What we see is a form of. trafficking after he gets out of prison. that relies mostly on women who were a. bit older, 18- and 19-year-old women. from Eastern Europe than the victims we. know about from before he died. I mean, they were a bit older, but they were. still equally vulnerable, just in a. different way, with a different legal. definition. And that's what these emails. are so stunning, the vulnerability and. the neediness and the disparity in power. is very, very clear. Deborah, I want to stay with you for a. minute. What lots of people who look at.

these emails end up seeing. is behavior that on paper would seem to. make Jeffrey Epstein toxic. That's on. top of the fact that he's already been. in jail. >> Yes. And yet, he's kind of a magnet for. the most powerful people in the world. We see that time and time again in this. latest batch of documents. You told us that these new emails end up. illustrating a how and why these. powerful people are drawn closer to him.

even as he becomes a more toxic figure. So, can you just walk us through that? Yeah, sure. I mean, one of the things. that's so stunning about Jeffrey Epstein. as a character is the way that he. collected power. He collected influence. He curated it in his life and he created. access to these spaces for other. powerful influential people and he. traded access as like this networking. currency. And something that really. became apparent to me in this latest. document dump because there are so many. emails is the intense vulnerability and.

intimacy that people really fall into. when they're communicating with him. Jeffrey Epstein was a person that they. could open up to. They could bare their. soul to in some ways and that in itself. is extremely seductive. It's really. stunning when you read these emails to. see these people whose names are so. recognizable and they're people who have. so much power and so much money be so. vulnerable and human. Give us some. examples of that from these documents. Yeah, so I was reading a couple. There. was one from the guru Deepak Chopra and.

he and Jeffrey Epstein were trading. these really intense questions and. Deepak said to Jeffrey Epstein, "How can. I be sure that I'm eternal?". I mean, he's literally asking him the. question about the meaning of life. Um. there were a couple from the former. Prince Andrew whose entire. life and career and reputation has been. brought down by his association with. Jeffrey Epstein where he opens up about. the restraints of royal life and how. difficult it can be to be a royal. And the person that he's opening up to. is not his therapist, it's not a family.

member, it's Jeffrey Epstein. In another. email, Jeffrey Epstein is arranging for. Prince Andrew, or the former Prince. Andrew, to meet a woman. And he tells. him that she's 26, Russian, clever, beautiful, trustworthy. And he responds. and he sounds kind of like a high school. boy with a crush. He says, "What have. you told her about me and have you given. her my email?" And there's just so much. raw vulnerability in that response. And. it becomes very clear that this too was.

part of Jeffrey Epstein's power, the way. that he hooked people in and made them. feel safe enough to show their most. intimate parts to him. >> How do you make sense of it? I mean, what specifically is it. about the way Epstein operates that. prompts these powerful men, and to some degree women, to be this. vulnerable in his midst? And especially. in these communications. I mean, it's a. great question and maybe Matt and Nick. also have a response cuz it's definitely. not his responses in the emails. But.

it's Why not? >> Well, what's staggering is in many of. these emails, people are unburdening. their souls and Jeffrey Epstein's. responses are four or five words riddled. with typos. And that's it. He's also. sort of plays the role of the bad boy. friend for a lot of these men that they. can say things that they can't say in. polite company, things that they can't. say to their friends, that they can't. say to their wives, to their partners. It's things that they would never say to. their They would not want to be heard. saying for whatever reason since Epstein.

has held himself out as this guy who's. like, "I go against all the rules." And. he invites them into their world and. that's why they feel they can open up. and say a lot of these things that they. would never say otherwise. >> Hm. He's providing an escape and a kind. of amoral space in which to escape to. That's right. He's a con man who has a. harem. And he's playing these two things off of. each other. The women are bringing in these. middle-aged men who are powerful in.

their own spheres. They're powerful in. Hollywood or high finance. Or the royal. family. Or the royal family. But he has. girls, as he calls them. He has women. everywhere he goes. He's surrounded by. 19-year-old blonds. And he's using the. powerful people. to bring in the women. Right? He's. saying, "I can connect you.". So he's a connector and a con man and an. abuser all at once. This is an example of his network. So. there's one email. It's a proposed guest.

list for a Yom Kippur dinner. In 2010, the year after he gets out of prison. Right. Here again, the timeline's. important. Now, this is only his. proposed guest list. I could not find. documents that confirm who actually. attended. But this is who he sought to. invite. And this is. >> his Is that his home? At his home in the. Upper East Side in his famous fabulous. mansion. And we know that in general, he got. folks over who he wanted to over the. course of his life. So here we have Mort Zuckerman, the. publisher and developer. The. billionaires Leon Black and Len. Blavatnik. Graydon Carter, the editor of.

Vanity Fair. The designers Tom Ford and. Vera Wang. Wow. Charlie Rose and Harvey. Weinstein. Men who in the future will be. accused of sexual misconduct. >> Yeah, Julian Schnabel, the artist. Tommy. Mottola, the record producer. Wow. And. the list is is 40 people long. So he. could bring these people in a room. and then take pictures with them. And. remember, in his Upper East Side. townhouse, on that credenza, pictures of him with all these famous. people. And so if you are an 18-year-old. Russian model and come to his house and. you walk past that credenza,

you see Donald Trump, Mohammed bin Salman, Woody Allen, Bill Clinton. Wow. You see all these. famous people in grip and grins. with your host and you think he's. powerful, he can help me. And you might also think he's powerful, he can hurt me if I step out of line. Matt, I want to pick up on something. Nick just said about the power that. Epstein seemingly held over these. powerful people. This is a concept that. you have been looking at specifically,

the way he signaled to people in these. documents. that he had something on them. Yeah, [snorts] so one of the what I call the. myths of Epstein is that he had a. blackmail operation to Mhm. There's no. real evidence of that that he was. blackmailing people. But for better or. worse, let's call it compromat. And it. was basically that he took the things. that people were telling them and also. from the work he was doing for some of. them, he would glean their secrets. And.

his whole modus operandi was to sort of. at some point maybe someone was not. doing what he wanted them to do. >> Or paying him what he wanted him to pay. >> paying him what he wanted or threatening. to stop seeing him. He would remind them. in just like I'll always be your best. friend. I'll never tell anything bad. about you to anyone. He also had this. weird thing where he wrote a lot of. memos to himself. We don't know how much. of this was actually always delivered to.

the recipient. But there's one to Bill. Gates where he talks about. the. >> the illicit trysts that I know about and. also we don't want Melinda to know about. these things. Gates' ex-wife. You know, there's messages about Leon. >> down black who was one of his big. benefactors in the later years. >> Billionaire businessman. >> Yeah. He talks about how maybe Leon. should get a divorce. And then also Les. Wexner who was head of Victoria's Secret. at the time who basically is where. Epstein had got most of his money.

Wexner famously cut him off in 2007. after he he got he's going to jail. Epstein sort of never really got over. that because he I think there was a very. long relationship there and there's this. letter we found. We're not sure again if. it was actually ever sent. He says less. we did gang stuff for 15 years. >> Gang stuff. >> Gang stuff. Not clear what it means. Is. it sexual? Is it something else? And. then goes, "Well, we know we don't want. Abigail, your wife, to find out about.

it.". >> Wow. So, he's reinforcing in these. messages. the friendship. but in a way that says very clearly. I could become your foe and we both know. I've got the goods to hurt you. >> Yeah. A final question about this. This is to all three of you. Do we know. if Epstein ever delivered on those. implied threats? "I'm going to let your. wife know." And did he? "I'm going to. report you to the IRS cuz I know you're. a potential tax fraud." Did he ever. follow through? I don't think we do. know. I don't think we do. I mean.

clearly at times he conveyed it to the. people he was he was saying it to, but. did he go beyond that? His power was in. its Yeah, I think it was enough to sort. of suggest it. >> these people were aware of what was had. on them. But that's one of the. challenges with these emails. You can't. really see what came before or what came. after. And that's one of the challenges. of reporting on it. You have to read. what's in front of you and make sure. you're not inferring too much, but also. we're still trying to put together the. pieces as to how all these line up and. what the chronology is and what the end. result was. It's really difficult to.

tell. Right. This is what it means to be. sifting through 3 million documents. We won't know until we get the next one. And I really think we still are very. much at the beginning even though it's. been over a week since we got these. documents. And just remember what we see. here are his emails and some texts. A few recordings of phone calls. For the. most part we are only seeing a sliver of. his communication with all these people. and we can't see what he said one-on-one. in a private room or on the telephone.

most of the time. >> [music]. >> Okay. Well, when we come back after a. break, we're going to turn to what these. documents are exposing about the very. provable lies. that people are telling about [music]. their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. and when it ended. We'll be right back. >> [music].

[music]. >> Deborah Matt and Nick, I want to turn to. the unusual way in which this set of. Epstein documents has proven people very. publicly to have been dishonest. Nick, you have been focused on this question. in particular. So, can you tell us what. you found? Well, it's hard to find anyone who will.

ever have admitted that they were close. friends with him and liked him. Uh what we instead have found over the. years is that all these influential. people. for whom we knew some fragment of their. connection with Epstein, would always. say. I never liked him. I cut off contact. I knew him through. business. I knew him through a friend. Always minimizing their connection with. him. And then all of a sudden 3 million. documents come out. And we can see the truth. of their closeness for all these people.

I'll give you an example. Elon Musk, as recently as last. September, Elon Musk didn't just deny. visiting Epstein's island. He framed his. decision as an act of principle. He said. Epstein, quote, "tried to get me to his. island and I refused." All caps. But back in 2012, these documents show, he seemed eager to go. And he wrote to. Epstein, "What day/night will be the. wildest party on your island?" Wow. That. is beyond a direct contradiction. Exactly. Here's one more. Howard.

Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, told a. similar narrative on a podcast again. last year. Massage table in the middle. of your house? >> [laughter]. >> How often do you have a massage? And he says, "Every day." And then he like gets like. weirdly close to me. Ooh. >> And he says, "And the right kind of. massage.". >> Lutnick described being so revolted by a. mid-2000s visit to Epstein's Manhattan. mansion. My wife and I decided that I. will never be in the room with that. disgusting person ever again. He even.

claimed I was never in the room for him. socially, for business, or even. philanthropy. So, publicly claiming 2005. and on, nothing. Yeah. Except, we see in. the documents seven years later. he invests in a privately held company. with Epstein. Wow. And he appears to. visit Epstein's famous private island. We can see them making travel plans that. year. for Lutnick and his family to visit the. island, the island on which this guy now. is famous for abusing.

>> young women. >> Right. And then after the date of the. planned visit, we see an email from an. Epstein assistant. forwarding a message to Lutnick from. from Epstein, "Nice seeing you." And. we're not just talking emails where they. shared niceties, we're talking about, as. Nick said, a business deal. Business. deals have paper trails. There must have. been some sort of calculation in all of. these people's heads as these documents. started trickling out that they thought, "I can just keep denying it and I won't. get caught." I mean, that to me is what's so stunning about. all the evidence in these documents. It.

was always there on paper. Another good. example is this billionaire New York. real estate mogul, Andrew Farkas, who. I've been tracking really carefully. >> Not a household name, but a very big. deal. >> Yes, exactly. Not a household name, but. a very influential billionaire in New. York who's also a very powerful. political donor. He's been a huge backer. of Andrew Cuomo. He's friends with. Donald Trump. He was friends with. Jeffrey Epstein for over a decade, and. they were were partners. And he actually. went, it appears, to great pains to. conceal the fact that they were business.

partners. He ended up co-owning a marina. in St. Thomas, the closest marina to. Jeffrey Epstein's private island, and he. >> Wexner visited? Yes, exactly. And the. closest way to get there on a smaller. boat is from this marina, American Yacht. Harbor, that the two of them owned. together. What does Farka's publicly say. about their relationship, and what's the. truth? Well, how far back do you want to. go? He never said a word about it, that. the fact that they were co-owners. It. only came out because someone had a. deposition in 2018, and Jeffrey. Epstein's name came out. And after he. died in prison, what Farka's said was.

what a lot of powerful men have said, "I didn't really know the guy. We were. just business partners. Our relationship. never went further than that." And with. each document reveal, we've started to. see the curtain peel back a bit more. And with this final reveal, it's. undeniable. They were very, very good. friends. Andrew Farka's opened up to Jeffrey. Epstein about his fears of loneliness. when his marriage was ending, >> Wow. about his struggles with the fact. that his father was dying, about things that you really only share. with a very, very close personal friend. And in addition, not only were they in.

business in the marina, he was. suggesting other business ventures many. years after Jeffrey Epstein's conviction. in Florida. And what I found. particularly interesting in my reporting. is the first time I contacted Andrew. Farka's about this, he denied it. And. each denial got a little more qualified. until finally with this last story that. I did just yesterday, all he said was, "I regret my. association with him." He actually. finally stopped denying it because the. evidence is simply too clear. They were. very good friends, and the business. relationship was only a byproduct, not.

the other way around. What's remarkable about what you're. describing is how many people believed. that the statements they issued, these. boilerplate statements they issued years. ago about what they. didn't know, and that they weren't close. to Epstein, that these documents are. just obliterating Yeah. those. statements. An email is forever, and the. proof here, it's undeniable. When these people were communicating, they clearly never thought these. communications would see the light of. day. Right. And yet. accountability has been one of the most. distinctive features of the fallout from.

this latest. set of documents. And we're just seeing high-powered. person after high-powered person, not. just being forced to account for. how they misled the public about. Epstein, but in some cases they're. losing their jobs. I would say some, Michael, right? So, Brad Karp, uh the head of Paul Weiss, he. lost his job when it became clear that. he was much closer to Epstein uh than he. thought. >> Right. Law firm. But then you take. someone like Kathy Ruemmler, who's the. top lawyer at Goldman Sachs. Uh she is.

also revealed to have been much closer. to Epstein than her her past comments. have suggested. She's still in her job. What we see is that in certain. institutions there's more accountability. than in others. Howard Lutnick seems in. no danger of losing his job as Commerce. Secretary at the moment. We see that in. European countries. there is a lot more fallout and a lot. more damage uh to men who have been. revealed to have been very close with. Epstein. Talk about that, Deborah. Yeah, I mean, the difference in accountability.

and the sense of the smear that this. would give you if you were attached to. it, when you look at just the US versus. the United Kingdom, for example, is. absolutely staggering. I mean, you start. with Prince Andrew, who is no longer. Prince Andrew. He's now Andrew. Mountbatten-Windsor because. >> even living in his home. No, he's He. literally he's lost his title, he's lost. his home, he's lost his reputation. I. think it's very fair to say he's lost. almost everything as a result of his. deep relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. and the fact that it's been shown. through documentation and testimony that.

he abused women as part of his. relationship with him. But now we also see that the Prime. Minister of the UK may very much. possibly lose his job as a result, and. many high-powered people around him have. been fired or forced to step down. Some. because they were close with Jeffrey. Epstein, and some simply because they. were involved in putting people in power. who were close to Jeffrey Epstein. So, we're talking about a domino effect. where it's just degrees of separation, and that alone is enough in the UK to. make people toxic. That is not what.

we're seeing in the US in certain. sectors. >> sectors that the tech world is one where. we've seen almost zero accountability. I. mean, there's been some public shaming. of people like Bill Gates and Elon Musk. and maybe Peter Thiel, but there's been. no ramifications for them in any real. world. And and quite frankly, these are, if you want to talk about sheer power, the most powerful people in the world. based on the value of how much money. they have, and they've had no. accountability. We haven't talked about. an incredibly important figure in all. this, and that's President Trump. What.

do we learn about him from these. documents that we didn't already know? Well, to answer your question, Michael, it is important to keep in mind some. chronology here for the listeners, right? Trump and Epstein were very close. friends in the late '80s and the 1990s. and a couple of years into the 2000s. Epstein thought he was Trump's closest. friend. These documents, though, come from after they had their falling. out in the mid-2000s.

So, they aren't friends anymore. The mentions we have of Trump in these. files really come in three categories. It's either Epstein talking about Trump. with somebody else, often criticizing him. Witnesses in the Epstein investigation. who were mentioning Trump, and we'll. come back to that. And then tips that. came into the FBI in 2019, for example, regarding Epstein that also had some. mention of Trump, and those tips are. uncorroborated for the most part. I. think if email had been wide use in the.

1990s, and if Trump was a guy who used email, which he's not, we might know a lot more. about their friendship. But, let's also. remember, we already know quite a bit. about their friendship. For the better part of two decades, they. were very close, and their friendship. was based almost entirely on a shared. interest in women and sexual conquest. That's what they did together. They. chased women, they talked about sex, about women's bodies, about who they had. slept with. They bragged, they were. wingmen at parties and pageants at.

Mar-a-Lago, in Manhattan, in Atlantic City. Trump. once groped Epstein's girlfriend in. front of him as if it was a game. And Epstein introduced Trump to at least. some of the women who would later accuse. Epstein of abusing them. Now, we don't. have any knowledge that Trump was. implicated in any of Epstein's criminal. activities. But we know all these other facts Right. >> about their overlap in their friendship. So, the fact that there's not a ton of. new insight from these documents.

doesn't change, and in many people's. minds diminish what we already knew. about the depth of their relationship. >> I don't think so. The Clintons. are at this very moment preparing to. testify before Congress about Jeffrey. Epstein. And Bill Clinton's association with him. is reasonably well-known. I don't know if the three of you have. spent a lot of time looking into the. Clinton dynamics in these documents, but to the degree you have, what do you. know? Well, in terms of Hillary, there's not a.

lot there. And the fact of her being. called to testify is mainly just because. she's Hillary Clinton. >> Right. And the Republicans have always. been fascinated with Hillary Clinton. There's no doubt with President Clinton, there's evidence now that Ghislaine had. a bigger role in helping to set. Ghislaine Maxwell setting up the Clinton. Global Initiative. This is the. president's marquee. public philanthropic initiative after. the presidency. It was what he did for. his job after he left office. >> Fascinating that Ghislaine Maxwell was.

central to establishing it. >> Yeah, I mean, basically with Epstein and. and Clinton, it was like going on these. trips. There was a famous trip to South. Africa where they went and they took. people and we know there've been reports. that there were young women on the. plane. There's no evidence of anything, any kind of sexual wrongdoing, anything. criminally improper. It's more again, what we see with so many times of this. bad judgment. of hanging out with someone who you've. been warned about is someone you should. avoid. Got it. Well, I think that's.

where I'd like to end this conversation. Because here we are talking about former. presidents, current and former CEOs, billionaires, ambassadors, law firm chairmans, and they're communicating with Jeffrey. Epstein, they're reliant on him, they're. advising him, they're sharing. intimacies, Deborah, as you said, with. him. And in seeing all of this laid. bare, even in these early stages of. getting through 3 million documents, you can see how much,

and check me if you think I'm wrong. here, the conspiracy theories that we. heard about for years and years and. years and that were dismissed as, you. know, hairbrained, they were scratching at something really. real about the way that elites behave. when they don't think any of us are. looking. I mean, these documents are an x-ray of. the global elite, how it's. interconnected, how it's isolated,

how money buys anything. It buys your way out of any trouble. It buys your way out of almost any. scandal. A man who was convicted of soliciting a. girl. remained the toast of the town in. Manhattan for years until he was. arrested again. It was no obstacle to. socializing, to movie premieres, to. invitations to fancy events, or to the. intimacy that Deborah and Matt have been.

talking about with these powerful. people. It did not give them any. apparent qualms. that he was this person. And can I add. to that that what you see here also is I. think elite society at the end of the. day, while they knew he was a registered. sex offender and they were aware that he. had pled guilty to soliciting. prostitution from a minor girl and. that's a key part of what they knew. It. was easy for them to discard these young. girls as basically they were just. prostitutes. If it wasn't Epstein, it. would have been somebody else. Why? His.

crimes didn't matter because of who the. crimes were perpetrated against. >> Because these women didn't matter. Right. And and they were girls that. yeah, they were girls. They were girls. that didn't matter. They were basically. disposable people that they didn't care. about. And the irony is a lot of these. elites are people who we would call. progressives and having very liberal. views and firstly enlightened views on. women and it really shows a real level. of hypocrisy. Hm. It's also a really. interesting look at how these elite. people, these extremely powerful people. were played by Jeffrey Epstein. The way.

that he became this puppet master just. holding all of them on a string. He was. able to dangle the things that they. wanted most in life, not just sex, but. also all the things they open up to him. about and they really felt. for so long that they were infallible. Hm. And for some of them there may never. be real accountability, but there is. some sort of accountability that's. happening right now because there's a. public reckoning. We are reading their. intimate thoughts in the New York Times. We are publishing photographs that they. never thought would see the light of. day. >> them speaking in vulgar terms about. women.

>> Yes, these are things they never thought. would be aired. They never believed in a. million years that this would reach the. public. They didn't think they were. people who could be touched, but there. is a paper trail and now we have it and. they have fallen into that and it is a. reckoning of a sort. >> [music]. [music]. >> Well, Deborah, Matt, Nick, thank you guys very much. Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Ms. Maxwell, did you and Jeffrey Epstein. attempt to surround yourselves with. influential individuals to curry favor. and shield yourselves from potential. scrutiny? I invoke my Fifth Amendment right to. silence. On Monday afternoon, Epstein's. long-time companion, Ghislaine Maxwell, who is serving a federal prison sentence. on sex trafficking charges, refused to answer questions during a. deposition before Congress. Instead, [music] she invoked her Fifth.

Amendment right against. self-incrimination. in response [music] to every question. Meanwhile, Well, that was an interesting. experience. It was. A few hours later, the two congressmen. who have led the efforts to force the. Trump administration to release the. Epstein files, Republican Thomas Massie of Kentucky. >> [music]. >> and Democrat Ro Khanna of California, were given a chance to review unredacted. copies of the latest Epstein files. We.

went in there for two hours. There's. millions of files, right? And in a. couple of hours, we found six men whose. names have been redacted who are. implicated in the way that the files are. presented. Both lawmakers criticized the. Department of Justice. >> [music]. >> for redacting the names of six. associates of Epstein who, they said, appeared to have engaged in criminal. conduct. One of them, according to Massie, is a. high-ranking official.

>> [music]. >> in a foreign government. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. [music]. And as a doctor, your your message to. people about the measles vaccine is.

>> Take the vaccine, please. We have a. solution for our problem. A top US. health official is urging Americans. [music] to get vaccinated against the. measles, issuing one of the strongest. endorsements yet from the Trump. administration. Asked by CNN [music]. about the measles outbreak that is. raging in South Carolina, >> [music]. >> Dr. Mehmet Oz was far more forceful in. calling for vaccination [music] than the. Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a long-time.

skeptic of vaccines. >> [music]. >> And. We believe our mom is still out there. We need your help. On Monday, the Today. [music] show anchor, Savannah Guthrie, issued a plea for the public's help in. finding her 84-year-old mother, Nancy. [music] Guthrie, whose disappearance. over a week ago is being investigated as. a kidnapping. No matter where you are, even if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear [music]. anything, if there's anything at all.

that seems strange to you, that you report to law enforcement. We are at an hour of desperation. Local police say that blood [music]. found on Nancy Guthrie's front porch was. hers, and that a doorbell camera at her. home had been disconnected [music] and. removed. But so far, police say they. have few leads about her location.

Today's [music] episode was produced by. Mary Wilson, Michael Simon Johnson, and. Shannon Lynn. It was edited by Brendan. [music] Klinkenberg and Rachel Quester, contains music by Chelsea Daniel and Dan. [music] Powell, and was engineered by. Chris Wood. That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael. Barbaro. See you tomorrow.