Could the L.A. Fires Have Been Stopped Sooner?

from The New York Times I'm Natalie. kroof and this is the. [Music]. daily as wildfires ravage Southern. California for a seventh straight day. residents are seeking answers about why. so much has been lost and whether their. government could have done more to. protect. them today my colleagues Mike Baker and. Chris LEL on the response so far and. whether some of the devastation could.

have been. [Music]. avoided it's Tuesday January. 14th. help. help no I'm right.

here I need a little. water in the days since the fire started. a bleak picture has emerged of the. extent of the damage they caused my. family and I just lost our home here. that we grew up in it's very very hard. uh it's hard not to cry as you can see. there's nothing left and I've been here. for about an hour and a half and I don't. want to leave it's home oh like man how.

much can one guy take people tell me to. be strong it's like how much stronger do. I have to. be these fires are on Pace to be the. most destructive in California's history. in the Palisades on the west side of Los. Angeles an out-of-control fire ripped. through homes and historic. landmarks near the Eastern edge of the. city entire neighborhoods in Altadena. were reduced to. ashes as Rescuers comb through the. rubble they found the body of a man. named Victor Shaw he was laying dead in.

his front yard clutching a garden hose I. couldn't be here to save him I couldn't. be here that's What Hurts the. Most I couldn't be. here throughout the week intense winds. fueled new fires there were more and. more haunting images there were roads. full of charred cars Embers falling from. the sky onto scorched palm trees. hollowed out houses.

and even though the fires were still. burning residents who had evacuated to. safety began to return to survey what. was. lost oh. oh my. God it's all. gone oh my. God. no oh no.

[Music]. my colleague Emily bomgardner nun was. driving up a street in the Palisades. when she saw a woman named nases hiking. up a canyon with her husband Steve can. you take us to your street and sort of. what it was like walking down the street. to your own. home I mean so you know Steve was ahead. of me he was like I'm just going to run.

he's like I can't I can you know I need. to see I need to see so he's ahead of me. we turn the corner and I see smoke and. I'm thinking maybe our house is f. because there's like a little smoke. coming and he's ahead of me and he's. running and the next thing I know he. stops and he's just emotional you know. he is he's holding his head and so then. I know it was gone.

it was almost like a outof body. experience so many little pieces of our. identity to see it in ashes my first. thought was how am I going to explain to. my. children because I can't even understand. what I'm seeing in front of me right. now how is this possible and and in such. a short amount of time I mean literally. less than 24 hours from the the time.

that we had left an entire town was. burnt what do you think you'll miss most. about your old. [Music]. home I will miss every time I open my. door and I walked in and the way the sun. would shine into the room right when you. walked in and I would have my little. flowers from Trader Joe's on the and my. vase and try to make the house look.

pretty for the girls and looking at. their little rooms every day making. their bed every day as I would make the. bed I I literally would thank God and. say thank you for giving them this. space it it was almost like I had proved. something to myself that I can do this. and I can do it for my. kids that I was able to give it to them.

[Music]. let me ask you do you ever find yourself. just wondering who could have prevented. this are you. angry you know what I am angry I'm angry. because there was no surprise to this. they knew that this weather system is. coming in they knew that things are dry. we haven't had any rain but it seems. like nobody was proactive taking care of.

anything even the number of fire trucks. you would expect more or number of. planes dropping water you would expect. more and if we can't have planes then. what what's the other option even the. most basic is do we have. water it it's not the fire department's. fault it's not the police officers. they're doing what they need to do but. how can a place like Los Angeles Pacific.

Palisades the amount of money the amount. of resources the amount of taxes that we. pay you run out of. water definitely nobody was prepared for. this and I think that it didn't need to. go to the extent that it did I think 50%. of the loss could have been prevented.

[Music]. Mike we've seen this Outburst among. residents in La of frustration and anger. over the government's response to these. fires and there's been a lot of. speculation about whether more could. have been done take me through what. happened with the efforts to contain the. fires yeah so the before the fire we're.

starting to see forecasts from the. National Weather Service of a. particularly dangerous scenario how the. winds would be gusting up to potentially. 100 miles an hour where any spark could. spread into a catastrophic fire but it's. also the sort of like classic fire. danger scenario for Los Angeles I mean. that the city knows the situation and. they'll how to prepare for that kind of. circumstance and so they did I mean they. started to refill water tanks all over.

the city the sort of water tanks that. are a supply for high elevation. neighborhoods they start pre-positioning. trucks in vulnerable areas they've got. firefighters deploying they've got extra. engines coming in they're calling up. people who are off duty you know the. forest service is getting involved and. there's trucks and bulldozers and. helicopters and airplanes all getting. sort of ready in case something happens. so they're they're actively trying to. guess it sounds like where the most. vulnerable places are and they're.

surging firefighters Water Resources to. those areas yeah you know the fire. departments looking at past wind events. where fires you know normally take place. and they're looking at the forecast for. the day and sort of making their own. educated guess about where the best spot. will be for them to place their. assets but of note none of the extra. trucks went to Pacific Palisades at this. point do we know how the Palisades fire.

started we don't we've been spending. some time the last few days up there. examining satellite images collecting. images and videos from Neighbors who saw. the start we have a pretty good idea. exactly where it began but even being up. there there's a lot of Clues on the. ground that could suggest a few. different things that could have taken. place like what for example in that. exact area there was a fire about a week. prior started on New Year's Day that had. been put out but there's lingering.

questions of whether maybe Embers deep. in the ground had sort of sustained and. survived from that fire and then. reemerged when the winds kicked up. there's remnants of power line materials. up there that don't seem to be connected. to any active power lines but we there. on the ground near the origin of the. fire and then it's a along a trail. that's a popular one for people to come. climb and hike and and be around and. there were people up there that day that. morning and something they had done.

purposefully or not could have. contributed to the fire starting it. sounds like there's a lot of theories. but as of now we don't really know the. origin of this thing but once it gets. going what happens so it's around 10:30. a.m. that the first report of fire comes. in and it's in the. Palisades residents start seeing you. know Flames emerging out in the dry. brush land.

and it immediately starts racing down. the hillside toward the ocean I mean. it's moving fast right from the. beginning we've listened to dispatch. audio from firefighters who are rushing. to the scene that they can see that it's. moving quickly and headed right toward. the Palisades being in the next 20. minutes you can hear one of them warning. that you know it could be getting. towards homes within minutes yeah Comm. 42 give me a second and um this thing is. going to make a good run that it looks.

like it's going to have a good run ahead. of it and you can tell immediately this. is a pretty dire situation and at the. same time the conditions are getting. worse the wind is picking up smoke is. choking the air the fire is moving. quickly there's frantic evacuations that. are blocking one road as the road gets. clogged up and one fire captain says he. can't see more than 10 ft in front of. his own rig wellow and as these winds.

keep getting worse as the day progresses. the firefighters start losing one of. their key tools they're no longer able. to use those aerial assets the. helicopters and the planes that pick up. water and drop it on the fire and also. you know spread fire retardant to. prevent the fire from spreading. [Music]. further and then we get the word that. things are even worse there's another. fire 25 miles away threatening a.

different part of the Los Angeles area. the Eden fire. yeah so the eaten fire begins in the. hills around the Altadena area and. immediately it's starting to threaten. neighborhoods nearby firefighters are. once again scrambling trying to get. assets there one fire chief talks about. driving there actually from the. Palisades he plugs it into his GPS he's. stuck in this bumper to buper traffic he.

watches as this new fire he's trying to. get to starts filling the sky that fire. chief he eventually calls the California. office of emergency services and says. essentially we are out of resources and. need more help he asked for 50 strike. teams a total of 250 more fire engines. and. 1,000 more. firefighters and even as he's putting in. this Quest there's really more trouble.

Brewing soon we get word that there's a. third fire up in the San Fernando Valley. they're really beyond their Max Capacity. and it keeps getting. worse the fire in the Palisades is. spreading ever further more homes are. going up into flames and then late into. the night you know this one fire captain. talks about how you know their fire. hoses start sputtering and then go dry.

and they try a new hydrant still dry try. another hydrant still no water there's. no water left for them to keep fighting. the. fire we've been really spending a lot of. time trying to understand exactly what. went wrong. here we talked a little earlier about. the city had filled a bunch of storage. tanks all around neighborhoods that are. high up in these hillsides and that. included the Palisades where there are.

right 3 million gallon storage tanks. designed to fill the system with water. designed to support not only homes and. their you know water lines but also the. fire hydrants below and what we've. learned is that the city could not fill. them up to keep Pace with how much water. was being used. well what the city has basically said. there's so much water being funneled out. of this system you have residents that.

are sort of spraying their own. properties trying to stop any Embers. from taking hold you have the mega Rich. who are Contracting their own private. firefighters to protect their own. properties at the same time you have all. these firefighters tapping numerous. hydrants all at once frankly this is not. what the system is designed to handle. Municipal Water Systems like this are. really designed for small fires handling. you know blazes that might consume a few.

homes not one that is consuming a few. hundred all at once so they depleted 3. million gallons of water which to me. sounds like a lot but was there more. that they could have or should have had. access to yeah turns out one of the. reservoirs the one actually located in. the Palisades was down for maintenance. no water available at that point to feed. the system and to also help push water. up into the storage tanks that turned.

out to be depleted sort of within hours. after the fire began so critical. reserves unavailable at perhaps the most. critical moment how big of a deal do you. think that is certainly to the. firefighters that were there watching. their hoses go dry there was a lot of. frustration a feeling of desperation a. feeling of helplessness that they. couldn't like do the work that they're. in position to do certainly having those. resources could have at least helped to. some degree but I think there's a.

lingering question about whether it. could have turned the tide of a fire. that had already grown so large yeah I. mean it seems like there is a fair. question to ask about why it was offline. for maintenance when the fire risk was. so high yeah that's definitely one of. the questions I've been asking in some. ways it's offline for maintenance in the. winter and these things need repairs and. winter is normally a good time to make. that happen but I keep wondering was.

there an opportunity here to bring it. back online especially when the weather. forecast was predicting a scenario that. could turn disastrous Mike we've talked. about two real issues in terms of. preparedness one is the number of. firefighting resources available and the. other is the amount of water available. both came up short there's now been a. pretty robust debate about whether the. city government did enough to get ready. for these fires what are the.

firefighters themselves saying yeah. we're hearing from firefighters that. they felt they did everything they could. with the resources they had and we're. back with breaking news the Los Angeles. city fire chief said that the city. failed her and the fire department in. the response to the deadly wild fire. chief Christen Crowley said there were. not enough resources I want to be very. very clear yes we took a $17 million. budget cut and as we know any budget cut. would negatively impact our ability to.

carry out our mission that cuts to her. budget made last year definitely had. some negative impacts for her Crews and. I warned I rang the bell that these. additional Cuts could be very very. devastating for our ability to provide. Public Safety that would have result me. and this is something she had been. talking about for months even before the. fires Crowley had felt that her. Department did not have enough resources. she said cut that were made last year to.

overtime created unprecedented. operational challenges for the. department and you know had sort of re. repeated that now in the aftermath of. the fire meanwhile you know on the other. hand but can you address the criticism. now over the budget issue and the. slashing $17 million I think if you the. mayor is saying that those budget cuts. didn't have an impact on the response to. this event there were no reduction that. were made that would have impacted the.

situation that we were dealing with over. the last couple of days and then there. was a little bit so you have the fire. chief saying this was a real issue the. funding and you have the mayor saying. this wouldn't have made a difference. what's the truth here I think from. talking to people throughout Los Angeles. this past week There's a general sense. that of of course more resources would. have been helpful people would have been. grateful for it it probably could have. saved homes maybe it could have even.

saved. lives but it also seems likely that. given the scale of This Disaster few. million more dollars some more. firefighters you know it maybe only. could have helped around the margins it. seems these fires were bound to. overwhelm A system that wasn't designed. to handle. them thank you Mike and thank.

[Music]. you we'll be right. back Chris we just heard from our. colleague Mike Baker that La could have. used more water and more firefighters. but that even if it had those things. controlling these fires would have been. really really hard you're a climate. reporter for the Times help me.

understand what that means about our. ability to respond to wildfires just. across the. US the first thing that's really. important to make clear is climate. change makes this all harder the. combination of rising temperatures and. longer droughts mean you've got more. vegetation ready to burn you've got. hotter temperatures making easier for. that vegetation to burn you've got even. more of a challenge putting it out this.

is fundamentally a climate story but if. any state is prepared for these things. it's California they've done all the. things that you'd want a state. government to do to get ready for those. climate risks and still it didn't really. work okay tell me why California at. least in theory is the state that should. be most prepared for fires like this. yeah the first thing to know about. California is they've had had wildfires.

throughout their history including some. really devastating blazes not least the. disastrous fires in 2017 and 2018 so. first of all this is a state that knows. fire is a part of the landscape but also. there's this question of vulnerability. California is painfully exposed to. wildfires because of the physical nature. of the state the risk in Los Angeles is. high for a bunch of reasons one is it's. a desert you get very little rainfall so.

you get dry terrain that can burn easily. but also the topography right the hills. around Los Angeles are sort of a delight. you get to live somewhere with a view. you get a wonderful Breeze which is nice. in a desert but you also get really high. fire risk fires can move quickly up. hills it's harder for firefighters to. access those homes as we saw the fire. hydrant hard to move water up the hills.

so we're sort of now realizing that. these neighborhoods in Los Angeles that. seemed like wonderful places to live. like Pacific Palisades like the. Hollywood Hills have a really high risk. and also you've got these Santa Ana. winds the santaana winds as we've all. learned to devastating effect can push. hot dry air at huge speeds which is. catnip for fires then the vegetation. this veget ation is meant to burn if you.

get a long drought coupled with in our. case a huge burst vegetation after last. year's rain and snow you get sort of the. ideal conditions for wildfires that grow. quickly spread fast and and are hard to. put out right I mean these are. conditions that are just kind of baked. into the place it's been this way. forever and we've talked about this on. the show these things may fires like. this almost foreseeable so how has.

California prepared given. that this right they're not just. foreseeable they're almost guaranteed to. happen and as a result California has. been pretty thorough at setting up a. system of prevention and toughening that. can make these fires in theory more. manageable start with their building. code and California has one of the best. building codes in the country for how to. build homes in fire prone areas so that.

they're less likely to burn that means. using materials that are less likely to. catch fire so stucco or concrete steel. roofs not having wood exterior not. having openings that Embers can fly. through to ignite the interior of the. home those rules also include things. like what you can plant and how close to. your house this idea of defensible space. those rules say that as far away as 100. ft from the edge of your structure. you've got to manage vegetation to.

reduce the amount of shrubs and Mulch. and trees that can catch fire very. thorough and then wow beyond that. California pulling out to the macro. level does a lot of things that other. states I'm sure would love to do they've. got a really well-funded state agency. called calfire that predicts fire. activity draws Maps but where the risk. is the highest has armies of really. well-trained firefighters and resources. to move when they're needed they've got. a political culture perhaps most.

importantly that is open to this idea of. rules that homeowners have to abide by. to reduce their risk and then they've. got money California one of the largest. economies in the world and the result is. they've got a tax base that can fund. just a huge array of measures to harden. and protect communities against fires. yeah it sounds like California is. particularly vulnerable but it also has. a bunch things working in its favor and.

yet all of those things obviously were. not enough to contain these fires so. what does that tell you Chris so it's. exactly the right question and it. creates kind of a puzzle if California. was in general pretty ready what went. wrong but at a big level California was. pretty ready so that raised the question. well can you be ready enough is is it. even possible to do enough as a city or. a county or a state or a country to.

prepare communities against these fires. that are getting worse because of. climate change and it's a question that. for the moment doesn't have a good. answer it's kind of like you're asking. is the pace of climate change just. faster than the pace of possible. adaptation that's bang on one question. is how fast can you improve the. protections for places like Los Angeles. but another question is how much can you. improve it right all the things we.

talked about the way home construction. is regulated and the way people try to. you know squeeze the flamable vegetation. out of a landscape you can always do. more of that you can build concrete. boxes that are just surrounded by gravel. and pavement and there isn't a shred of. wood anywhere in sight or even a tree I. don't know if people want to live like. that but in theory you could you could. put more space between houses so that. fires have a harder time jumping from. house to house you could build bigger.

buffer zones between the forest and. communities so that Embers would have to. fly even further distance on the Wind. all of those things would help and. they're all possible but they're all. hard and they would not eliminate the. risk which as you noted is getting worse. just about every year you're saying the. more your house can look like an. isolated concrete box surrounded by. rocks the better and even even then it. wouldn't totally solve it yeah and we.

haven't even talked about cost even if. people were willing to stomach the loss. in beauty that these kinds of changes. would entail they're not cheap right if. you want to replace your roof with. something that is flame proof or more. flame resistant with the steel roof. something like that very expensive even. just managing the vegetation on your. property in a way that is effective is. not cheap and then there's the community. and sort of public level of cost if you.

apply these rules more aggressively and. you have more space between homes so. fires have a hard time jumping and you. have fewer homes getting built into the. forest where the risk is highest that. reduces your fire risk but it means. fewer homes and in California right now. as we all know the housing crisis is. really severe so the idea that you would. try to combat wildfires by having fewer. homes would help but it would also make. another problem even worse so the.

tradeoffs of trying to further squeeze. the fire risk out of Los Angeles and out. of California are real right I mean for. affordability to tackle you know the. crisis of people living on the streets. California and LA in particular needs. more homes not fewer yeah it's hard to. even say you know what California should. do because arguably the homelessness. crisis is as urgent or more urgent than. the climate crisis and wildfires there's.

really no good answer to these questions. what you're describing is a situation in. which you are really weighing these two. crises against one another and to solve. one of them you need a pretty radical. shift in this. city what are the odds do you think of. that actually happening and I I ask this. because even though the fires are still. raging we're seeing the beginning of.

discussions about what recovery and. rebuilding will actually look like yeah. look the fundamental question after any. big fire in communities like this the. first question has always got to be how. will you rebuild in fact it's already. started Governor Nome issued an order. directing officials to look for ways to. ease or suspend provisions of the. building code that would make it easier. to build back more quickly but also.

would not be unsafe what does that mean. we don't know yet but in the past these. fires often have been followed by. attempts to weaken or loosen temporarily. the standards around how you build for. good reason people want to rebuild as. fast they can and they want to rebuild. as inexpensively as they can and. governments just want to do their best. to serve the needs of people who lost. their homes right it's the most obvious.

thing you could do the problem is that. sets you up against a future where these. fires get worse and so this is also the. moment where people who study resilience. and climate change will say actually. this is a good time to tighten the. standards so that when we build back we. build back homes that are more resistant. to wildfires but typically that takes. longer so historically often those two. forces are in opposition after a fire. and usually the people calling for. easing the standards win out but this.

time is different because the scale is. bigger and because there's no longer. really a debate about climate change no. one is saying that we won't have more of. these fires so the question that I'll be. watching is to what degree do state and. local officials and homeowners use this. time to say this really is worth taking. a moment and finding a way to build back. in a tougher environment because we know. the fires will get.

worse Chris part of what you're talking. about building fewer houses in the most. vulnerable areas in La that would mean a. lot of people would need to move and I. have to say these kinds of conversations. where we're talking about people. relocating thanks to climate change I've. really only heard them about people who. are doing that because of sea level rise. and storm surge it's something we've. talked about with you on the show this. is really the the first time that I've. seen it come up in this way in the.

context of. wildfire these La fires are folding into. a bigger conversation in the US about. whether some communities are just too. hard to protect against climate shocks. and you're right until now the climate. shocks that prompt that conversation. have mostly been rising Seas repetitive. flooding and storm surge but these fires. might become a turning point they might. raise the question of are some.

communities too exposed to fires to have. a reasonable expectation that we can. protect people who live there and. obviously we're not talking about. emptying out all of La that's insane and. you wouldn't want to but there may be. some neighborhoods around La where. because of the topography or something. else that the risk is so high experts. look at them and say boy we probably. shouldn't have Built Homes there in the. first place. and people might start to ask maybe it.

doesn't make sense to build back there. and it's important to note even if the. changes only affected some small sliver. at the edge of La at the edge of the. forest it would change all of La those. people have to live somewhere right so. you'd really have to pair pulling back. from a handful of high-risk areas with. probably building more density in the. downtown in places that are easier to. protect so the transformation that that. would entail would be really significant. for all of LA and it's a hard.

conversation there's no no guarantee. it's going to happen but it's the kind. of thing that I think people are more. likely to start talking about because. these fires were so. bad and it seems important to just say. Chris that in this case we're not. talking about moving a relatively small. Coastal Community from a Barrier Island. here we're talking about La the second. largest city in America 10 million. people in a state that is just an. economic engine for the whole country. has the biggest port in America I mean.

what we're envisioning is reshaping a. major metropolis and that's not just a. huge investment of money right it's also. a massive emotional investment in just a. new identity yeah and look I've covered. these conversations for a long time. anytime you're talking about changing a. community deliberately because of. growing threats it's really hard you'll. get many homeowners who just say. no I want to rebuild exactly the way it.

was my life has been turned upside down. enough I don't want anyone talking about. maybe I should leave but others will say. oh what we just lived through was. terrible I'm not sure I want to do it. again right then there's the question of. is it even fair to put future homeowners. into that situation where as we now know. fires can emerge almost out of nowhere. in January that cause disastrous scale. damage fires like this open the door to.

talking about maybe the change that's. going to happen anyway after this fire. should include some sort of calculated. decisions around are there places that. you can't protect that may be a question. we need to Grapple with but it's also a. really difficult thing to ask when. people are in a lot of pain and just. reeling from all this. loss yeah it's almost too hard to ask.

right but the last week of fires show. that you have to at least think about it. because fires like this demand that you. at least try to be honest with yourself. and your neighbors and your voters about. the kind of risk we're taking on when we. build or rebuild in places that we know. are inherently dangerous and getting. more dangerous. [Music].

in some of those really high-risk places. maybe we can't keep pretending that we. can save every house if it's facing a. fire which is a terrifying thing to. admit and it's a huge shift in attitude. because this country wants to say that. we're ready and prepared to protect. homes to you know have firefighters come. to the rescue but as we've seen from Los. Angeles sometimes there's still nothing. they can do so you know at some point. the US might have to say to itself if.

you live in these high-risk areas. there's no guarantee for safety and and. that kind of brutal honesty is the. hardest thing to do it's not how. Americans want to think but climate. change is pushing Us in that direction. and none of those Solutions are really. satisfying but here we are we've got a. gigantic City in a zone so maybe that's. the best there.

is Chris thank you so much thank. [Music]. you over the weekend firefighters slowed. the progress of the Palisades and eaten. fires which are now partly contained but. winds in Los Angeles are expected to. pick back up again prompting officials. to is isue a rare fire danger alert for. Tuesday until Wednesday afternoon the.

National Weather Service warned that the. gusts could lead to quote explosive fire. growth at least 24 people have been. killed in the fires and officials say. that the fatalities are likely to. [Music]. rise we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today on Monday a federal judge in. Florida ruled that the justice. department could release half of the.

report by the special counsel Jack Smith. detailing the decisions he made in. charging Donald Trump with plotting to. overturn the 2020 election after Trump. won the 2024 election the special. Council dropped the two criminal cases. he brought against the president-elect. but the justice department rules. required him to write a final report. detailing his findings in the interests. of public understanding the justice. department has been fighting to get the. report into the public eye even though. Jack Smith formally stepped down from.

his post on Friday Trump's legal team. has fought to stop any part of the. report from coming out calling it a. quote one-sided attack on the. president-elect just after midnight on. Tuesday the justice department delivered. the 137 page volume to Congress. according to a copy of the report. obtained by the times Jack Smith said he. thought there was enough evidence to. convict Trump in a trial if his victory. in the 202 for election hadn't made it. impossible for the prosecution to.

continue today's episode was produced by. Shannon Lynn Alex Stern and Sydney. Harper with help from Lindsay Garrison. and Olivia natat it was edited by Paige. cowt and lizo Balin contains original. music by Marian Lozano Sophia lman Dan. pal Alicia eup and Pat mccusker and was. engineered by Alyssa Moxley our theme. music is by Jim brunberg and Ben. Lansford of wonderly special thanks to.

Ryan Mack and Ken. bensinger that's it for the daily I'm. Natalie kro see you tomorrow. [Music].