Chaos or Conscience? A Republican Explains His Vote to Oust McCarthy.

from New York Times I'm Michael babro. this is a. [Music]. daily the ouer of house Speaker Kevin. McCarthy a few days ago has demonstrated. just how powerful a small group of hard. rightous Republicans have become just. how far they will go in the name of. ideology and just how deep their.

grievances. [Applause]. run today a conversation with one of the. eight Republicans who brought McCarthy. down Congressman Tim burett of. [Music]. [Applause]. Tennessee it's Friday October.

6th. Congressman. Congressman oh Congressman you are muted. on your side of this oh wait let me take. that off there we go can y'all hear me I. can hello Congressman hey it's Tim I. don't believe I'm allowed to call you. anything other than Congressman a you. can call me Tim dude don't that's why I.

tell the cust all the custodians up here. call me Tim because they are the only. ones up here. working I believe you're working today. yes sir well talking to you. guys so I really want to thank you for. making time for us yes sir it is I think. no understatement to say been a heck of. a week in your world it's a heck of a. day heck of a day and um I had to make a. tough decision and I made it it makes me.

wonder are people in the Republican. caucus in the house are they talking to. you right now or are you something of a. pariah I've always been something of a. pariah. brother I'm not I didn't come to. Washington to make friends well as I. think we're hinting at here you're one. of the eight House Republicans who made. a very momentous decision and that. decision was to vote to oust Your Leader. house Speaker Kevin McCarthy first time. that has happened in United history and.

I wonder how much that history. Congressman weighed on you in the period. leading up to the actual vote I tell you. what waight on me is just doing the. right thing I if I could go can I go. over the my thought process to where I. got to where I where I voted for that. that be okay yeah I mean I guess I want. to I want to make sure people understand. what a journey it's been for you because. you started off as a firm supporter of. speaker McCarthy you you were somebody.

who voted for him 15 times 15 times. during that now agonizing process and. and you weren't one of those. conservative House Republicans who. refused or said I'm going to vote. president you were a formal definitive. yes over and over again back in January. and yes the reason I do want you to. explain your thinking and your journey. is is that I think if we can understand. your disillusionment with speaker. McCarthy over these last nine months we. can better understand the larger story. of what has happened here so tell us how.

you got from there supporting McCarthy. to here deciding he could no longer be. speaker yes sir well during that time if. you've seen a lot of the pictures I I. sat beside a lot of the holdouts and I. met with them because I was you know I'm. a conservative I'm just not angry about. it and uh I met with them several times. during that and I talked to them about. things I thought were important and they. agreed and and I went to speaker. McCarthy early on and I said these are. some things I wanted and he gave me.

about Assurance of about 85% of what I. was interested in would happen I wanted. a fiscal note I wanted something to say. how much something cost I remembered one. time I asked it then our ranking member. now our chair of Appropriations just how. much money does this this piece of. legislation cost and she looked at me. said I don't know next question and I. said no you know and lader oh wait whoa. who whoa you can't question her you. can't do that you know and then I never.

did find out how much that piece of. legislation cost so that was something I. asked the speaker about and and they. said they would you said you said I. should be able to know exactly what the. price tag is on a piece of legislation. that was one of your conditions yeah. absolutely I I don't think that's. unusual at all I don't walk into the a. supermarket and just trust the cashier. to you know to charge me whatever they. think it costs can you just explain why. these questions around fiscal. transparency why they're so important to. you and why they seem to be your primary.

overriding concern as a member of. Congress and why you think they're so. important for the people you represent. in Tennessee I had the very good fortune. of having parents that were a good deal. older than most of my buddies parents my. brother and sister and I were both all. three of us born very late in their. lives and my parents grew up in the. depression and daddy told me a story one. time and I always remembered it he said. he he watched these kids and they were. laughing and he said hey watch this and. they ate an apple and they threw the.

apple core in the trash can and some kid. came by and dug through the trash and. ate that apple. core and as a young man that made a huge. impression on my daddy H this child's. need and and perhaps poverty and poverty. and because of irresponsibility and. greed and things like that America was. thrust into a depression I think about. that and I think about the average. American you know I got single moms in. my district District working two jobs.

got three kids and and and we are just. throwing money away on all this stuff. overseas everywhere and not focusing on. keeping our debt down and keeping. inflation down so I just want to make. sure it sounds like you're saying that. the reason you care about this issue and. the reason you believe your constituents. care about it is a fear that government. mismanagement of our nation's finances. could lead to just a truly awful outcome. whether it's something like the Great.

Depression of. 1929 or just kind of garden variety. problems in people's Financial lives not. could but 100% will because nowadays. this world depends more on American's. economy and it would be a worldwide. depression it would be a complete. devaluation of currency inflation would. be rampant it'd be like you know preor. War II Europe where you see the people. pushing the wheel down the down the.

street full of cash trying to buy a loaf. of bread I mean you you you surely know. this right that there's a lot of debate. about the causes of yeah I know any one. financial crisis 1929 wasn't necessarily. about government spending but you seem. quite convinced that too much government. spending and not enough accountability. around that spending not enough. transparency around it is a problem 100%. we are out of control and we have no.

fiscal barometer at all well what did. you just kind of brass tax expect this. speaker that you voted for in January to. be able to do about that knowing as you. do that Republicans had such a slim. majority and that the next chamber the. Senate is controlled by democrats right. and the White House is controlled by a. Democrat what did you reasonably expect. given what he told you but given what's.

also possible that he could do about. these questions of transparency and. spending I expected leadership I. expected somebody to take our ideas and. our values to the White House to the. Senate and said let's meet let's talk. about it but you're not going to get. that way by issuing a press release and. just I'm not going to meet with the Pres. and I'm not going to meet with Chuck. Schumer I I just so you were. disappointed when he was not engaging in. more vigorous negotiations with the.

Senate leader or the president that was. to you a d election completely but there. again we got a real problem in this. country and we better start addressing. it you know that's why I reach out I. mean I'm friends Josh gottenheim from. Jersey um I work with those folks I talk. to them about issues things we're doing. Democrats yes sir you know honestly dude. we got a dadgum country to run man this. is ridiculous maybe it's SS memberships.

demonizing the other party or demonizing. somebody but it the reality is we need. to produce and get to. work I I want to keep pushing on this. because there is a point at which. speaker McCarthy does sit down and. negotiate with the Democrats and with. the president and it feels like when he. does and it's around these issues. they're always moments where spending is. on the. table you lose faith in speaker McCarthy.

and so I want to talk about those. moments and let's start with the debt. ceiling well we continue to raise the. debt ceiling every year and you can. argue well that's just agreeing to pay. what we owed and to me that just sets. yourself up for more economic failure. more. spending well what did you want speaker. McCarthy to do in that negotiation. reduce the death ceiling take our views. and our values to the table and they did. not. not do you believe that speaker McCarthy.

never brought your perspective to the. negotiation table or just ultimately. couldn't Prevail in getting enough folks. to support it I just want to understand. that distinction I don't know I just. know that my views weren't being. represented and whoever had his ear they. were I remembered I had a meeting with. his Lieutenant because I was a hold out. and the Press was like you still a no. yep I'm going to meet with him though. great and then a couple days for the. vote they set up a meeting I go to this.

meeting and uh I wait and I wait and I. wait I waited 20 or 30 minutes and they. didn't show up no meeting the Press is. waiting for me outside to hear and I. walk out and it was very embarrassing to. me huh you were you were basically kind. of dissed disrespected and I get that. I'm the 435th most powerful member of. Congress and there's only 435 of us but. that's my number on the baseball team by. the way.

and then you start with the process you. you know you know how great I am they. really need me need me on board I need. you to help me and I said no I'm not I'm. not and then they go to belittling if. you know they thought they're just going. to roll me you know it's not taking me. to the wood shed's not going to work I. don't care I just said I'm not with you. and I walked out and that was it h I'm. going to vote my conscience and that's. what I did we're going to continue down. this path of runaway spending until we. call it into check and we repeatedly.

refused to do that well you you started. to to get at this you voted against that. deal a deal that won many more. democratic votes than Republican to. avert a US Government default by raising. the debt ceiling back in the summer and. I'm hearing you say that a default. wouldn't be. catastrophic to many others the analysis. was that it was going to be catastrophic. so I just want to be sure I understand. it's always catastrophic when when.

you're in the the opposition always. makes it. catastrophic and so we'll never get our. fiscal ship in order we're never get it. straightened out and we just continue. down this path of spending and I'm not. I'm not going to be a part of. it was there a part of you that in any. way wanted to see and I don't want this. phrasing to get too loaded but but. wanted the situation to arise where. perhaps the country did go. into a potential default because it.

would then allow you to make this. question of fiscal responsibility. spending cuts transparency more pressing. and prominent to people that it was. going to give you and and those. like-minded more leverage you mean what. I've tried to cause it to prove my point. yeah that is what I'm asking no no I. wouldn't do that and that's a gutless. thing to do I just vote my conscience I. didn't do. my votes on fiscal issues did not put us.

in this position yet I'm required to. follow on my sword to correct it when it. will never correct if we just keep. spending you know it's the chicken or. the egg so this addiction needs to be. broken regardless somebody's going to. have to take tough stands somebody's. have to draw attention to it yet nobody. is but in the end Congressman the deal. that McCarthy signed around the debt. limit ends up being a deal that you.

don't like because you and a few other. conservative House Republicans won't. sign on to it therefore he feels he has. no choice but to work with Democrats to. get a deal that by definition you're. going to like even less than the one you. were negotiating before yeah I know. where you're headed with that and I. actually. asked leadership as I've done every time. to get the people that are opposed to it. in a room and let's talk about it and. they never do they want to Jam us up. against a wall and make us look bad in.

the Public's eye and thinking we'll. yield and to me that just creates. animosity you know everybody up here. they fuss at you and cuss at you and. drop F bombs on you and say things when. you walk by and do thing yeah and you. know and you got bullies in there that. get in your face they act real tough I. always like to say they're the type of. guy that they were a kid threw a rock. over the fence and then ran home and hid. behind their mama's skirt cuz When. leaders doesn't call them down they are.

endorsing that type of behavior and so. to me that does not show leadership that. shows cowardice and um and it's very. childish. behavior and uh I don't like that type. of leadership I would like for them to. get with us in the. beginning and let's work our differences. out but they chose not to do that yeah. I'm hearing you say you're feeling. marginalized which is kind of. interesting because you all there aren't. that many of you everyone understands. the power of your block of votes whether.

it's the five or eight or 10 or 15 of. you who can be so influential on this. moment and I'm hearing you say that you. guys are not being drawn into the. process in a way that makes you feel. respected by Speaker McCarthy we're not. being drawn in the process at all until. the end and then they they say we're not. willing to work with them do you think. that do you think that speaker McCarthy. concluded somewhere along the way that. it's just kind of futile to do that. because he knows what you all stand for.

because he know the terms upon which you. want to negotiate well that's hard to. say because we never did be with us H I. think this brings us if we're kind of. sticking with a chronology here to this. second big moment that I believe upset. you and tested your faith in speaker. McCarthy which is the potential. government shutdown last week and the. Dynamics there were very much the same. as they were with the debt ceiling and. the potential default on US debt you did.

not like the deal that was being offered. within the Republican caucus which then. prompted speaker McCarthy to work with. Democrats to pass a spending bill that. would prevent the government from. shutting down does that feel like an. accurate description no well we were not. offered the opportunity to work with. speaker McCarthy again again but but. once again I think to the lay listener. may sound a little bit like you're so.

frustrated at being sidelined that. you're willing to let the government. shut. down well I'm worried about the pain. that that would cause and I say this. With all sincerity but I tell you what. I'm more worried about is is the. inflation and the the lack of purchase. power that these people are going to get. the single moms and the teachers and. people that bust their hump every day. firemen policemen as a result of what. what of government spending government.

spending and our economy crashing and. it's just when you take in 5 trillion. dollars a year you spend s. trillion I mean eventually you got to. realize that that's deflating the value. of American currency there's no other. way around it I just want to be sure. just I'm making sure to clarify these. things a government shutdown like a. default has consequences those. consequences are soldiers aren't paid. law enforcement federal law enforcement. but you're saying it's more will all get. paid they will all be reimbursed as they.

always are and they do a lot of this to. scare people both parties do it block up. The Monuments and so the veterans can't. get to them things that are going to. cause maximum pain and maximum exposure. but if we enter into a depression I dare. say those people there's the good faith. and will of this country are not going. to be able to take care of these people. you're saying something that I think is. important to understand which is that as. with a potential default a potential. government shut down is not going to.

cause the big trauma in your mind the. big economic Financial trauma is not. changing government spending patterns. and your parlan's addiction which. creates the real long-term economic. hardships yes sir because we're not. doing it's institutional and we're not. doing anything to fix it and all the. stuff we're doing now is just making it. worse I do see a bit of a pattern here. and and I want to run by you and get. your read on it it feels like this is.

what's happening in both of these cases. of the default and the potential. shutdown that you and some of your. colleagues by being maybe you would. resent this word obstinate unyielding. whatever it is you force the government. into a tricky position I know you don't. think that those positions are as. traumatic as if other people do but. obviously speaker McCarthy did and he. worries so much that he feels he has no. choice but to work with the Democrats to. prevent those crises but here's my.

really important question in a sense. haven't you engineered the entire. situation by being so unwilling to take. anything less than what you want speaker. mcarthy um his major concern is staying. was staying in power you know we had a. conversation a few weeks ago and on. Saturday and the last thing he said to. me was I really want to be the speaker. and to me that that simplified pretty. much everything what do we got that will.

get the votes not what are we principled. what are we going to fight for and that. to me is not leadership that is just a. barometer you stick your finger up in. the air figure out which way the winds. blowing and then you jump out in front. of it and take credit for it that is not. leadership that is nothing to Rally. around and the differences between him. and Pelosi you know and I catch a lot of. hell for saying this but she was an. effective leader and she would get an. issue put a steak in the ground and call.

people in and say this is where I'm at. where are you and then when she put her. proposal out it would win and that was. because of that style of leadership and. that is something we're not doing but we. know that speaker McCarthy was willing. to give up this job he loved in the end. because he did and so I do want to ask. this question again and have any choice. he I mean he was gone there was no. totally understand but just just hear me. out on this in the the end in these. scenarios is it accurate or not that you.

and a few of your colleagues given your. crucial rule given the numbers. engineer these situations that end with. the speaker feeling like his only choice. is to work with Democrats no I hear what. you're saying and I hear that a lot but. I I think his problem was his refusal to. work with his own. members.

he did just didn't meet with us 15 of us. get us in a room find out the. differences I think that would have been. a a wise. [Music]. approach we'll be right. [Music]. back.

so for all these reasons that you've. clearly described you have lost your. faith in speaker McCarthy by the. beginning of this week and then your. colleague representative Matt Gates. files this motion to try to remove him. as Speaker I'm curious did you end up. speaking to McCarthy before that vote. and did he appeal to you in any way that. let you air out all these Grievances and. all these feelings of being slighted and. and not heard out did you guys talk. about it well he called me U you I was.

on CNN I think I'm one of the few. Republicans that goes on CNN on a. regular basis and um I said I prayed. about it and I asked God to to show me. what I needed to be doing and um you. know he called me that morning and his. opening Salvo to me I felt was very. condescending what did he say well just. some mention something about my prayer. and then he s come back and said he. didn't say it that's not the way he. minute or whatever but it doesn't matter.

you you were you were not pleased with. the way he framed your prayers yeah so. he follows up I said something I think. about term limits and where are we on. term limits can I just make sure I. understand term limits are important to. you term limits are important to me but. they're important to the American public. it pulls through the roof and they said. well it it died in committee um and then. I said we took six weeks off we usually. just take the month of August off when. we took off um two weeks in September I. said why'd y'all send this home I don't.

set the schedule you know Dad git he's. speaker you think if Pelosi wanted us to. be here over the weekend we'd be here. over the weekend I dare say we would so. this is another in your mind failure of. leadership complete he is the speaker of. the house one of the most powerful. positions not in Washington not in the. country but in the dadgum world to say. that he can't set anything to do with a. schedule he doesn't get bills in. committee to is is is not acceptable and.

so I I I wasn't getting anywhere and. that was it and I thought God was. telling me maybe not in an audible voice. but in my gut or my conscience he was. saying vote your conscience because. that's what served me very well these. last few years that I've been in office. and and and that's the way I voted and I. voted that. way I wonder Congressman if you think. the other seven who voted the same way. you did had similar reasons and similar.

experiences with the speaker I think. style of leadership is a big thing I. think fiscal responsibility is a big. thing and uh we just had enough we just. had enough and so it was time to make a. stand and we. did I want to take you back to the. moments after speaker McCarthy was. ousted he gave a news conference I don't. know how much of it you watched I. watched all of it and he basically said. that in his mind. the eight of you who voted to OU him.

have now created an impossible situation. for the next speaker and when he said. before that there needs to be an adult. in the room I think he meant something. very particular about the ability to. keep government open avoid a. default negotiate and sometimes reach. deals that are not the best but they're. good enough what did you hear him say. when he said that I didn't listen to it. but from what you said I would assume. that you know the adult in the room is.

going to be somebody that tells the. truth doesn't pit people against others. and that's not what we have I took it to. mean that in Congress and in divided. government you have to compromise I I. don't compromise my values if I gave my. word I give my word I don't represent. the lobbyist up here I represent a lot. of hardworking folks back in East. Tennessee and then you know and to them. I'm I'm their hope I think and that's. why I keep getting elected and big. boys just failed to understand that can.

you describe for me Congressman what you. want in the next speaker because there. is a sense you've made clear that. speaker McCarthy told a lot of different. people what they wanted to hear and then. didn't live up to those commitments and. that makes me wonder if you'd support a. candidate for speaker who said to you. Congressman ber let me be straight with. you I can't do the things that you want. in this area and this area and this area. I know they're important you but I can't. do them given the math of this Congress.

so just know that up front will you. support me anyway if somebody straight. up with me I can handle that a lot. easier I want a strong leader though you. know when Daddy was in the Pacific his. Colonel on a little island called pelo. was a guy named chesty puller my daddy. would you know he said they turn around. on pelo and Hell there'd be Colonel. puller right there with them fighting it. out that's the kind of leader I look for. I look for somebody like a colonel.

puller like my father who' get in the. trenches with you and who would who. would meet with you not set up some. appointment that you got to go to the. capital and you wait outside and you. wait you wait and you. wait and if there's some compromise. involved in that then maybe so Integrity. is the question at hand I think so I. think so I think that because of the. vote you cast the next few weeks are. going to be very confusing and uncertain.

in Washington for all kinds of. procedural reasons the house is going to. not be able to do certain things because. there's not a speaker including passing. spending bills does that bother you. we'll be back to work Tuesday and we. will elect a speaker on Wednesday I'm. confident we'll have one ballot on the. floor and I believe that will pass so. this is not a moment your worried is. going to drag out for some time I don't. think. will just to end this conversation.

Congressman let's say this new speaker. who you are amenable to and who has the. Integrity you need for him or her to. possess gets the job there's still a. mathematical problem at the heart of. what you and this small group of. Republicans represent you want something. that many other of your colleagues don't. want and many Democrats don't want and. so let's say you get that speaker the. one you like are you truly going to be. willing to compromise on some of these.

questions we've been talking about so. that you're not right back where we were. at the beginning of this conversation if. I feel like that speaker worked with me. in good faith then you'll compromise it. depends on spending on fiscal matters it. depends I'm not going to do deficit. spending there's no compromise there. there is no compromise there there is no. more money you can't spend money you. don't have we can't just keep printing. money. so that does mean we might be back where.

we started if we're not going to be. fiscally responsible but I think this. next speaker will understand that role. and if they don't will you vote again to. potentially OU another speaker I vote my. conscience I don't think we're going to. make that mistake. [Music]. again well Congressman pett thank you. very much we appreciate your time it's. been a pleasure brother thank you fair. questions it's been a pleasure for me as.

well brother thank. [Music]. you after we spoke with Congressman. burett we reached out to the office of. former speaker McCarthy for comment. there was no. response so far at least two House. Republicans say they will seek to. replace McCarthy as Speaker. Representative Steve scalise of. Louisiana the house Republican majority. leader and representative Jim Jordan of.

Ohio an outspoken Ally of former. president. Trump House Republicans are expected to. pick their next leader as early as. [Music]. Wednesday we'll be right. [Music]. back.

here's what else you need to know today. on Thursday a federal court ordered. Alabama to use a new Congressional map. for next year's election that could lead. the state to elect two black. representatives for the first time in. its history and allow Democrats to pick. up another house seat in what is. expected to be a closely fought battle. for control of Congress the order is the.

culmination of a 2-year fight over an. effort by Alabama's Republican lawmakers. to dilute the power of black voters in. order to consolidate Republican power. that effort has been deemed illegal by. several federal courts including the US. Supreme. Court and in northeastern Ukraine dozens. of people were killed when a Russian. rocket hit a village shop where people.

had gathered for a funeral it appeared. to be one of the deadliest attacks on. civilians since the War. Began Ukraine's president volodimir. zalinski condemned the attack as a. deliberate Act of terrorism and a quote. demonstrably brutal Russian. crime today's episode was produced by. chv Olivia Nat and summer tamod with.

help from Shannon Lynn it was edited by. Rachel quer and Paige cowt with help. from Lisa chow and Brendan clink BG. contains original music by Maran Lozano. and will Reed and was engineered by. Alysa Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben lansberg of wonderly. special thanks to Carl Holz Katie. Edmonson Annie Carney and James.

[Music]. Morrison that's it for the daily I'm. Michael baboro see you on. [Music]. Monday.