Chaos, Confusion and Defiance: The Global Fallout From the Tariff Ruling

From The New York Times, [music] I'm. Natalie Kitroeff. This is The Daily. >> [music]. >> In the wake of the monumental Supreme. Court ruling striking [music] down. President Trump's tariffs, the entire. world is scrambling to understand what. [music] comes next. Will countries back. away from the massive deals they made. with Trump? Will companies get refunds. for the billions they've already spent.

[music] on tariffs? And will Trump actually be constrained. by any of this? Today, my [music] colleagues Tyler. Pager, Ana Swanson, and Andrew Ross. Sorkin explain. >> [music]. >> It's Monday, February 23rd. Tyler, you cover the White House. Andrew, you cover corporate America. Ana, you cover trade. Thank you all for.

joining me on this Sunday afternoon. Thanks so much, Natalie. Thanks for. having us. Yeah, glad to be here. So, to. catch us up from where we left things on. Friday with the massive news that the. Supreme Court had invalidated most of. the administration's tariffs, we saw. Trump respond first by putting in place. a new 10% tariff on imports across the. board, and then jacking it up to 15%. over the weekend. We're going to get. into the specifics of that today. But,

just to start, what have the reactions. been in the worlds that you all cover? Tyler, I want to start with you. Take us. inside the reaction from the White. House. On Friday morning, the president was. speaking to a group of governors in the. East Room of the White House when. Jamieson Greer, the trade. representative, handed him a note. alerting him to the Supreme Court's. decision. The president told the. governors it was a disgrace. He lashed. out at the Supreme Court. Hm. And. quickly wrapped up that meeting and. left. And he was irate. He met with.

advisors and then we saw that full-blown. anger on display in the White House. briefing room a few hours later. And for. Trump, this wasn't just a political. loss, but a personal one, too. He has. been obsessed with tariffs as an. economic tool for decades, long before. his political career. And so this felt. like a real personal loss to something. he deeply believes in. And Anna, how has the international. community responded? So, obviously this had been somewhat.

expected for other countries that were. following the Supreme Court ruling, but. it has still caused a lot of immediate. doubt and confusion with countries that. have been agonizing about these tariffs. all year. So, you had countries that had. just finalized their trade deal the day. before. Now the underlying terms of. trade, the tariffs that those deals are. based on, are gone and replaced with. something entirely different. And some. of those countries have made concessions. that are controversial with their own.

people. So, this is just introduced a. lot of uncertainty for the months to. come. And Andrew, what about the corporate. world? The Trump administration's tariff effort. is probably the most significant shift. in global trade in decades and really is. the most important sort of rethink about. how the United States trades with other. countries, how US corporations operate.

in other countries, how international. companies operate in our countries. I. mean, it is everything. I spent the. weekend talking to business leaders and. CEOs, many of whom really have. rescrambled their entire supply chains. over the last 6 months, made commitments. to bring manufacturing back to the. United States, switched manufacturing. plants from places like China to India. to other places, thought that they had remapped what.

their true costs were going to be, and are now looking at this saying, "Oh. my goodness, what comes next?" Mhm. I think all of these companies are. spending the weekend trying to think. through all of this. with a sense though that this is going. to be a very long-term fight, whatever. it is. Okay. So, there's a lot of confusion. with companies and countries trying to. sort out what all this uncertainty means. for them. Tyler, the administration has obviously. been preparing for this moment for a.

while. It's been clear that the Supreme. Court was skeptical of these tariffs. long before the actual ruling, but the. response from the White House has still. seemed pretty chaotic. First, the 10%, then the 15%. Do we have any idea what's. behind that sense of chaos? Yeah, it was quite a whiplash over just. less than 24 hours where the president. came out to the briefing room and. announced these 10% tariffs. Later that.

evening Friday, he signed the official. paperwork instituting those 10% tariffs, and then Saturday morning he announces. this 15% tariff on social media. And. what I will tell you, Natalie, is that. many of the president's advisers and. people close to the White House were. surprised and taken aback by the rapid. change from 10 to 15%. Some have. speculated that the president was. frustrated by the media coverage of his. loss at the Supreme Court and wanted to. show that he still had power to raise.

tariffs even more. But we have not heard. from the president since then about. precisely why he made this change less. than 24 hours later. I do think there's um an important point. there just to jump in. So, you know, as. some people had speculated earlier that. maybe they would save that extra 5%. increase and use it as leverage or. negotiation later. But, at 15% the rate does get you close. to what it was overall before. So, at.

10% it was a little bit lower than they. the rate had been previously. Now, it's. like pretty close. So, within an average. percentage point of what it was before. Of course, this one is flat, whereas the. previous rate a lot by country. So, there are huge differences for different. countries. Right. Right. And just to jump off that, I want to understand, Anna, what you've. been reporting on, which is the options. that the administration is pursuing now.

outside of just the 15% tariff. Can you. ground us here? Give us a kind of sober. explanation of what the administration. has in store for us. Yeah, absolutely. So, there was always a. plan B because before plan A, the. president was presented with this menu. of options for his tariffs. And he had. chosen this International Emergency. Economic Powers Act because it was the. most flexible. It allowed him to raise. and lower tariffs at a whim. But, he.

always had a lot of other options. And. in fact, you know, some of his advisers. preferred those other options because. they were less vulnerable to a court. challenge. >> Right. So, now he's kind of going back. to the that original playbook, right? And so, there are a few different. authorities. One important one is called. Section 301. It's run by the Office of. the United States Trade Representative. They'll carry out investigations into. unfair trade practices and can levy.

tariffs that way. It's what the. president used against China in his. first term. He also has another called Section 232, which allows for tariffs on the basis of. national security and there are a lot of. tariffs that have been levied that way. as well. So, the administration has put in place. this 15% tariff for now that's a flat. rate for the world. Those tariffs expire. in 5 months and if Trump wants to extend. them, he needs the approval of Congress.

which seems pretty unlikely at this. point given that midterms are coming up. and voters are concerned about. affordability and tariffs adding to. costs. And just to say the midterms and the. fact that the tariffs largely aren't. actually popular with voters, that's. actually part of the calculus for the. business community as they consider. their plans because they're looking at. all these tariffs and they're wondering. given the politics of this moment. are these tariffs still going to be here. in 6 months? Because in truth.

the view is that if these tariffs are. not going to exist come this fall, the. whole game. gets re-scrambled. It changes completely. all over again. And so it's going to be very interesting. to see whether companies tip their hand. and really tell us what they're going to. do, whether they're going to be willing. to. really talk about what their plans are. next as they're making them. And Andrew makes a great point because. this is of utmost importance to the. president himself. I was just with the.

president in Georgia on Thursday where. he was touting these various business. executives who told him that they were. moving manufacturing or expanding. manufacturing in the United States. because of his tariffs. This is of. personal pride to the president so if. companies are changing their plans or. making new plans, they run the risk of. some sort of retribution campaign from. the president who feels extremely proud. of the impact he believes tariffs are. having in reshaping the American economy.

and reviving the manufacturing sector. Okay, Andrew, I want to talk about the. future may hold for these companies, but. I have to ask. It seems as though the. corporate world that you cover has been. really focused on the question of what. this decision means about the tariffs. they've already paid, about the past, whether and how they might get refunds. on the billions in costs they've already. racked up. What do we know about that?

So, look, you you can look at companies. like Toyota, which recently attributed. about $8 billion of losses to the. tariffs. Ford said that the. tariff-related charges cost them $2. billion in 2025. They're expecting over. a billion dollars in 2026. General. Motors is in somewhat of a similar camp. So, there are a lot of businesses that. have been impacted by this that they can. look directly at those losses and say. they want that money back. There's a real question about whether.

they can get that money back, how the. refund process works, when you actually. have to sue effectively or put in for. the refund. You might need to do it. relatively quickly, which also means you. have to do it publicly. Mhm. Again, this. question of when you publicly seek a. refund, what does that ultimately also. mean for your business if it's regulated. in some other way by the US government, and if you're concerned at all about the. administration somehow coming back at.

you in another way. Retaliating. You're. You're saying basically there may be. some risk for these businesses in. confronting the president on this. You know, this administration has. aggressively pursued companies in so. many different ways, whether it be law. firms, or you can look at some of the. big media companies. There's so many. other instances where they have used. their regulatory powers against. corporations that they did not believe. were quote unquote on side, if you will, with this administration. And therefore, I think there's a big question about you.

know, whether some of these companies. will seek refunds or not. Anna, you regularly talk to small. businesses who have been affected by the. tariffs. I wonder whether they are at a. disadvantage in terms of getting refunds. given everything that's involved. What. are you hearing? Yeah, absolutely. So, small businesses. tend to have fewer resources. They can't. hire the high-priced lawyers, the. lobbyists to come in and talk to the. Trump administration. And that has. really made a difference in how.

different industries and companies have. been treated over the past year. And I. think, you know, one thing is that this. tariff system has just added this huge. amount of complexity for businesses to. deal with, and that takes resources. I. hear from companies all the time that. instead of doing, you know, their. business, they're spending time figuring. out these tariffs. And so, that's a big. cost for companies. It's hard to describe just how. complicated the Trump's tariff system. was. Before the Supreme Court ruling,

there were different rates for different. countries, different products. Now that. is all gone. It's replaced with an. entirely very different set system of. tariffs. There's a 150-day clock running. on that with big questions about what is. going to replace it. And all that. uncertainty is just it's bad for. investment. I mean, companies are not. going to want to invest billions of. dollars in a factory that will take. years to build if tariff policy is going. to change dramatically in the next few. months. Okay, we're going to get to.

those bigger implications. Andrew, I. have what may seem like a technical. question for you. We talked on the show. before about the question surrounding. who was actually paying for the tariffs. Were the companies eating the cost, or. were they passing it on to consumers? If. the companies raised prices because of. tariffs, can they actually legitimately. get refunds? You are asking what may be the $175.

billion question. Which is to say, >> [snorts]. >> there is an argument that may be made by. this administration in court if a. company comes to seek a refund. It is possible that the administration. will argue. that they effectively raised prices, didn't suffer or subject themselves. therefore to a loss, and therefore. effectively have no standing to collect. a refund.

And Tyler, how is the administration. thinking about this question of. companies potentially demanding massive. refunds? Natalie, they're not really seeming to. think about it all that much at all. We. saw Treasury Secretary Scott Passant say. he didn't think that the American people. would see this money, and the president. at his news conference on Friday. basically ignored questions about. refunds. And so, even as reporters. repeatedly tried to press him, he has.

very much quickly moved on and has. started talking about new tariffs that. he wants to institute. And there doesn't. seem to be a whole lot of consideration. about what this process may look like. should companies start requesting them. Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that. they're not going to be very. enthusiastic about paying that money. back. The question is how, you know, cooperative they are with any eventual. court order. Um it will really be up to. the administration to set up this system. for refunds, and that could be, you. know, it could be a an easy process if.

they wanted to make it that way, or it. could be kind of a nightmare for. companies. You know, honestly, I I wouldn't be. surprised if it's months or even years. by the time this process plays out in. court, by the time this system is set up. and companies actually get that money in. their hands. Can I just say, part of the. political decision by this. administration to pursue tariffs the way. he did. was because. of the expectation that even if they. were overturned, it would be very. difficult to get the refunds back.

>> Hm, you're saying it was part of the. design. All of this was part of the design. Because by default, it forced these. companies and these countries into this. particular situation. Some of whom have. made commitments, [music]. not just commitments, but have made. investments that are very hard to turn. back on now. [music] Yeah, so. essentially you could see these tariffs. as a year of a kind of corporate tax. [music]. Is that fair? Some people would call. them a corporate tax. Some people would.

call them a tax on consumers. [music]. The administration would call them a tax. on other countries. After the break, we look at those other. countries [music] and the global fallout. from the tariff ruling. We'll be right back. >> [music]. [music].

>> So, Anna, I want to talk about all the. agreements that Trump has reached, all. the deals he's reached with other. countries. Trade deals that everyone. from Europe to Japan has made based on. what have now been deemed illegal. tariffs. Are those deals now moot? Well, it's still kind of up in the air. So, countries have agreed to major. concessions over the last few months.

The administration has made initial. trade deals that in a lot of cases are. kind of vague, but you know, still deals. with dozens of countries in which. they've agreed to drop tariffs, make big. investments in the United States. And now the tariffs that undergird those. are suddenly gone. But you already see. some hesitation on the part of other. countries, you know, that have agreed to. these terms. So, you had officials in. the EU saying recently that they might.

pause the ratification of their trade. deal. And the other piece of this is. that this new system, this flat 15%. tariff for everybody, for some countries. feels really, really unfair. Because. they have made a lot of concessions to. the United States in order to lower. their tariff rates. Now they're right. back where everybody else is. So, countries like Britain and Australia. were at 10%. Now they're at 15% along. with other countries like Vietnam,

Indonesia, India. So, a lot of people in. other countries just questioning whether. they should have made all these. concessions to the president for tariffs. that are not now in effect. But Anna, do. these countries not have the same risks. that we talked about companies having in. terms of, you know, poking the bear, potentially confronting Trump? Couldn't. that be dangerous for them if he. responds, if he retaliates? Yeah, absolutely. I think they do have a lot.

of risk when it comes to poking the. bear. The president has been restrained. by this Supreme Court ruling. He's not. able to use that emergency power, but he. has a lot of other tariff authorities. And he can still, you know, levy just. incredible taxes on their imports. So, a. lot of countries are not backing away. from their deals right away. They're. very cognizant that the president has. these other tariff powers that he could. just whack them with if they do decide. to break their agreement. The.

administration has also warned other. countries that they will in fact do. that. You know, sometimes it may take. writing a report, or it may take, you. know, a few weeks or months, but he can. still, you know, levy just incredible. taxes on their imports that makes a huge. difference to industries in other. countries that are trying to sell. products to the United States. You know, the other piece of this is the biggest. country that didn't make a trade deal. with the United States, which is China. You know, Trump had threatened something.

like 125% tariffs on China. He had put. very high tariffs on China before they. were ruled illegal. And now China has. this much lower rate. So, I wonder where. that leaves us. I think this goes back. to the the bigger issue about countries. and companies playing chicken with the. administration. And you could argue that. China has played the best game of. chicken yet because they didn't accept. some kind of higher rate earlier. And.

they did try to slow roll and play out. these negotiations as long as possible. And you heard early on that some. countries had thought about approaching. it that way. But, there [snorts] became this sort of. view, especially as a couple of. countries early on accepted these deals, that this was the future. That. irrespective of what the Supreme Court. said, that tariffs in one way or another. are here to stay for some period of. time. That was going to sort of rewrite.

the global trade order. And Natalie, I think we're going to get. a lot more on this front because the. president is expected to travel to. Beijing Yep. at the end of March, early. April, and meet with Xi Jinping. So, we. should expect there to be a lot more. conversation about what the US-China. relationship looks like, particularly as. it pertains to trade, in the weeks. ahead. So, okay, just thinking about where all. this leaves Trump on the global stage. Moving forward, obviously the president.

now has just lost this major source of. power that he's been relying on. What. the broad tariff authority had given him. was leverage in deal-making, not just on. trade deals, right? But also in his. foreign policy generally. He's been achieving what he wants around. the world in part by using tariffs as a. cudgel to force countries to the table, to force him to give him things they. want. Now he doesn't have that. What impact.

does that loss of leverage have? Tyler, let's start with you. Yeah, it's. enormous. I mean, it was the centerpiece. arguably of his foreign policy. He used. it often for economic reasons, but he. also tried to use it to cut peace deals. We know that the president is very. determined to win the Nobel Peace Prize. He repeatedly brags about how many. conflicts he's solved overseas. And at the core of some of those. strategies was threatening tariffs on. countries if they didn't.

in his words lay down their arms and. stop fighting. And so it dramatically. changes his negotiating position on the. world stage because he's unable to as. Anna very clearly laid out apply. different tariff rates to different. countries at a whim. And I think it left. a lot of foreign leaders. uncertain about what move they made and. whether or not they could be punished by. the president for whatever they might. do. That uncertainty has been diminished.

in some ways because the president can't. just unilaterally apply different. tariffs to different countries on any. given day. Right. I mean, one one source. said to me that it this takes away. Trump's lightning bolt powers. So his. Zeus-like ability to just, you know, strike other countries with tariffs. It. doesn't take away the ability to do. tariffs at all. It just requires some. planning. So I think you will continue. to see the president use the threat of. tariffs. It's just you you see the rate.

change tomorrow. I think it's also worth. pointing out that the president in. implementing these new tariffs at 15%. across the board is using something. called Section 122. And it is very. possible that. the way he's approaching it even this. time. is going to be brought to court all over. again. Neil Katyal, who was the lawyer. who brought the original case and went. to the Supreme Court and argued it there. successfully now has made this point.

over the weekend that there's an. argument potentially that the president. cannot use Section 122 in the way that. he is attempting to. And so we could be. back here 6 months from now again in. front of the Supreme Court over this, too. That's interesting. You're saying. basically that the authorities that the. president is now using as an alternative. may themselves be challenged. I just. want to push though on something which. is that we're talking about the.

president having a weaker hand in. negotiations, being more constrained and. legally that is functionally true, right? He can no longer just wake up one. day and slap 50% tariffs on major. trading partners. But I still think though that for a lot. of people it's just hard to believe that. that's actually going to happen when you. see Trump getting up there at his. presser on Friday and essentially saying.

that's not going to work. I am going to. find ways to put tariffs in place and. they're going to be even more severe. This is new for President Trump. Congress, controlled by Republicans, has. largely gone along with everything he's. wanted to do and the Supreme Court had. not limited his power in any major way. before this decision. And so for the. president it's a moment where he has to. reckon with the checks and balance. inherent in the Constitution. that for most of his first year in.

office he has not really felt. constrained by. You're saying this is. something we haven't really seen in any. major way until this ruling and we don't. actually know how Trump is going to. respond. Yeah, I mean we know that Trump is. immediately responding by trying to put. on these tariffs and just disregarding. Congress which if he really wanted to. pursue these tariffs that he initially. put on he could go down the path of. using the legislative branch. But right now Trump is not interested in.

that. He likes to do things unilaterally. and he likes to do things quickly. And. so this is a significant moment in which. Trump has to readjust to a. real constraint on his power. Okay, I want to just pull back for a. minute. One thing that does seem clear. is that we are now living in a world. with tariffs. Whether we're talking. about 15% tariffs or higher, the US. seems to have permanently at this point.

moved away from truly and absolutely. abiding by free trade principles and. moved toward a definitively more. protectionist and nationalist economy by. default. How should we think about that? You know, over the next decade. irrespective of what's just happened. here. there is going to be an element of. tariffs that are going to be part of our. lives and are going to be part of. all of these countries and companies. lives. and as a result it really has shifted.

[music]. potentially permanently or at least. semi-permanently. the relationship the United States has. with the rest of the world. >> [music]. >> Well, Tyler, Anna, Andrew, thanks for. coming on the show. >> [music]. >> Thank you. Thanks so much, Natalie. Thanks for having us. We'll be right back. >> [music].

>> Here's what else you need to know today. An armed man was shot and killed by law. enforcement officers. >> [music]. >> after he entered the secure perimeter of. Mar-a-Lago early Sunday morning. The local sheriff identified the man as. Austin Tucker Martin, a 21-year-old from. North Carolina.

>> [music]. >> Authorities say Martin was carrying what. appeared to be a shotgun and a fuel. canister, and that when he was ordered. to drop the items, he put down the. canister, but raised the shotgun to a. shooting position, [music] prompting. officers to open fire. President Trump wasn't at the resort at. the time. He had [music] hosted state. governors at the White House the night. before. And [music] heavy snow pounded through. the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic on Sunday. as a major winter storm forced.

widespread [music] transit shutdowns and. thousands of flight cancellations. Over 35 million people from Eastern. Maryland to Eastern Massachusetts were. under [music] blizzard warnings. More than 2 feet of snow is expected in. parts of New England. >> [music]. >> If New York City's snowfall hits 18. inches as forecast, it would be the. heaviest in a decade. The city [music] banned non-essential. travel until noon on Monday, and. officials in New Jersey imposed a travel.

ban for most drivers that's expected to. lift around 7:00 a.m. on Monday. As of Sunday night, [music] most flights. in and out of Kennedy Airport, LaGuardia. Airport, and Newark Airport had been. canceled. Governors in New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusetts, [music]. Maryland, Rhode Island, Pennsylvania, and Delaware declared states of. emergency. Today's episode was produced by Diana. Wynn and Muj Zaidy. It was edited by.

Devon Taylor and Lisa [music] Chow. Contains music by Marion Lozano and Dan. Powell. >> [music]. >> and was engineered by Chris Wood. >> [music]. >> That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. See you tomorrow.