Canada Is Done With Trump

From the [music] New York Times, I'm. Michael Bavaro. This is the Daily. [music]. In recent days, the United States. [music] proposed new terms that were. uneconomic, unfair, and called into. question [music] the reliability of any. deal. In a dramatic decision, the Prime. Minister of Canada [music] has abruptly. cut off negotiations with the US and.

delivered a message to [music] President. Trump that virtually no other world. leader before him has dared to convey, that he'd rather engage in a prolonged. and ugly trade war than submit [music]. to an unfair trade deal with this White. House. In short, they asked too much and. they offered [music] too little. >> Today, my colleague, Canada Bureau Chief. Matina Steves Gridf [music] on the.

American demands that led to the. breaking point and Canada's plan to. withstand economic warfare with no end. [music] in sight. >> Why does it feel like today Mark Carney. is going to war? >> Because we're [music] attacked. You're. at war when you get attacked. We got. attacked. It's [music] Tuesday, August 25th. Medina, welcome back. Always a pleasure.

>> So good to be back, Michael. >> So, I want to disclose something, which. is that I have a cold and as a result, I. sound very grally. And just for. listeners who are public health-minded, I'm going to acknowledge that you and I. are not in the same room. You are in. Canada. That is correct. I am in. Toronto. You're in New York. >> You are so safe. >> I am so safe. I am sorry that you have a. cold and I hope you feel better soon. >> Thank you. But no one was infected in. the making of this daily episode. Um,

>> no one in Canada certainly. >> Nobody in Canada, you have enough. problems. >> as it is. So, Matina, it feels like. Canada, the country you cover for the. times, has officially. had enough. they are done with the. United States. >> Yeah, I think that's a really good way. of putting it. I think both the Canadian. government and frankly the majority of. Canadians are really done with the Trump. administration. And that's why over the.

past few days, you may have heard the. prime minister Mark Carney come out and. say, "We're done with talking. We're. walking away. We're now in a trade war. with the United States.". >> Right? It had all the earmarks of. divorce. >> Sure feels that way. Maybe if we're. going to be optimistic, let's say trial. separation. [laughter]. >> But in all seriousness, I've been really. closely following President Trump's. commercial policy, economic policy with.

other countries, his fights with allies, and how so many of America's allies have. fallen into line for him. >> Right. And Mark Carney has decided to do. something totally different. He's taking. a massive bet, but he's just decided to. walk away from President Trump and take. the risk of enduring President Trump's. economic and political targeting because. he feels that President Trump is not.

going to make a good and fair and. lasting deal with him. the pain and the. terms are not worth it. >> and he's prepared to risk the country's. economy on it. >> I mean, if you had to summarize the bet. that Prime Minister Carney is taking. here, how would you describe it? >> Mhm. I think Mark Carney is betting that. his policies to make Canada stronger at. home and build Canada's relationships.

with other countries in Asia and in. Europe and to grow its economy and trade. relationships are enough to keep Canada. afloat and keep Canada growing even as. he turns his back on the United States. Well, just explain. how Carney gets to the point where he's. willing to risk the entire Canadian. economy and, as you say, do something. that no other world leader really has.

been willing to do, which is to stand up. to President Trump and say, basically, go fly a kite. I I'm just not even going. to participate in this game. Because I. think most people have lost track of. exactly how it is in this very bumpy. trade relationship, we got to this this. very public and potentially catastrophic. breaking point. >> I mean, as soon as President Trump comes. back into office, I'm sure you'll. remember cuz it wasn't really that long.

ago. It was like 18 months ago. He. starts this policy of of tariffs against. basically every country under the sun, including maybe you'll remember this, this island that is only inhabited by. penguins. >> I remember it from you. And the Trump. administration has been clear that. ideologically they're doing this because. they believe this is the way to bring. jobs and revenues back home, especially. in key industries like the auto industry. or the steel industry that they feel.

globalization has weakened and Canada is. very directly targeted. But quickly you. see many countries smaller bigger. traditional allies let's say Britain the. European Union countries in Asia come. one after the other and make concessions. in exchange for small improvements to. their tariff regimes like mini deals. [music]. >> but Canada holds out under Carney.

[music] and Carney sort of speaks about. that in a way that's much bigger than. the economy. me and he develops a sort. of doctrine, if you will, especially. through this feated speech he gave in. Davos in January this year. >> For decades, an American hijgemony in. particular helped provide public goods, [music] open sea lanes, a stable. financial system, collective security, and support for frameworks for resolving. disputes. This bargain no longer works.

where he sort of frames [music] this as. a matter of survival in an era where. Trump [music] is just changing what. America does in the world. >> And as a result, many countries are. drawing the same conclusions that they. must develop greater strategic autonomy. >> And he says for our country to survive. and for your countries to survive, all. those countries that have long depended. on the United States, [music] we need to. band together and we need to look out. for ourselves outside the US. Let me be. direct. We are in the midst of a.

rupture, not a transition. >> And he says, nostalgia is not a policy. [music] It's over. We all need to adapt. to this new reality. [music]. And Carney just holds out. And among. America's major allies, he holds out by. far the longest. and just remind us what. holding out against a pretty well-known. vindictive President Trump when it comes.

to trade wars means for Canada over. these past 18 months. So for sure. Canada's been hurting over the last 18. months. President Trump has taken hefty. tariffs against really core Canadian. industries, steel, aluminum, softwood, lumber, autos, and Canada is almost in. recession despite huge efforts to keep. it growing and to keep the economy. going. But Carney's decided that he's.

going to stick to a policy of. retaliatory tariffs. The only country to. do this other than China. and he decides. at certain points to roll those back a. little bit, but overall Canada keeps. those policies in place. >> And one thing that really distinguishes. Carney's approach to that of other. countries is that he's not going to the. White House seeking marginal. improvements on specific tariffs. Instead, he's holding out for a big.

discussion on the whole thing and. improving everything in the. relationship. He definitely doesn't want. to be seen to be begging for minor. concessions. He thinks it's extremely. injurious for the Canadian economy. It's. bad for the Canadian psychology and it's. bad for him personally to be seen going. back to the White House cap and hat like. so many other leaders have. And so he. tries to pick the right moment to. approach the White House and say, "All. right, this is a good time. Why don't we.

sit down and really make a better deal. for both our countries? Concessions on. both sides and something we can both go. home and feel good about. And that. moment, the right moment according to. Carney comes just a few weeks ago toward. the end of July when Trump threatens. more tariffs on Canada. tariffs on. several slightly odd Canadian goods like. cheese, hockey sticks, feathers were on.

that list. A bit weird. >> Feathers. >> Yes, >> like for pillows. >> Oh, hats. I don't know. But he finds. that that moment is a good opening. >> to sit down and the Canadians go to the. US side and they say, "Okay, let's talk. Let's see if we can make a deal." But. not a little deal that just, you know, scraps those tariffs you're threatening. us with. A real deal that improves the. general terms of our relationship in a.

lasting way. >> And how do those talks go? >> I mean, at first it seems like they go. really well. The US side is open. President Trump, our sources tell us, tells his officials, "All right, go see. if you can cut an agreement with the. Canadians." and a Canadian delegation. goes to Washington and they try to work. out solutions to all their disputes and. roll back tariffs and the Canadian side. offers lots of concessions such as.

>> for example the Trump administration had. been very upset that Canadian provinces. most of the country really had pulled US. liquor off of the shelves and it was. banned from sale you couldn't get a. California white in Canada. Really, Michael? A tragedy. >> How could you even make it through the. day? >> I know, right? And this is not a ton of. money. It's like a $1 billion industry. or so for Canada to like import this. stuff. But it's it's a big deal because.

it's a real gesture of resistance. >> And the Trump administration just wants. that policy revoked. And so the. Canadians are like, "Okay, for the right. trade deal, we will do that." They also. want to change the quotas of American. cheese that Canadians allow into the. Canadian market. Canada has quite a. protectionist system for its dairy. products. And so the Canadians are like, "Okay, let's talk about it. This is. something we may be able to work things. out on." And so I think there's a lot of.

goodwill there. Both sides told us that. talks were happening in good faith. despite the general negative atmosphere. And they make progress. So when do. things go so sideways? >> Really last week. And as ever, it all. kind of falls apart in the last moment. >> It really felt in the beginning of last. week that things were were close to a. positive outcome. I mean, it it got so. far down the line that President Trump.

sort of posted that there was a deal all. caps exclamation mark. >> And the Canadians were a bit more. circumspect, but they were also. positive. Lots of progress has been. made. The work continues. And Trump gave. them an extension to keep talking for. three extra days all the way to midnight. Friday just to seal that deal. >> Right. >> And our sources together with Anna. Swanson, our colleague who covers trade, have given us a really detailed, granular look into what happened in.

those 48 hours up until the very last. minute where everything kind of fell. apart. And what's really fascinating is. that if you put the Canadian account and. the US account from the officials we. spoke to side by side, they're not. really in disagreement. >> But fundamentally, the Americans thought. that what they had put on the table for. Canada was a really good deal, the best. deal in the world. They had made lots of. concessions, but for the Canadians, it. just simply wasn't good enough. And the.

reason for that were a number of really. fundamental issues on which Canada just. was not prepared to compromise on. >> Like what? >> Let me give you a few examples. One. really important element that came in. quite late in the game was an American. insistence on having a say on the terms. of Canada's trade agreements with other. countries. >> [clears throat]. >> The US basically wanted Canada to follow. the exact tariff policy that it would. take out on other countries with its own.

partners. To make that more concrete for. you, Canada is working on a trade deal. with Brazil. And if the Trump. administration in a few months wanted to. put on new tariffs on Brazilian steel, Canada would be committed to doing the. exact same thing. That seems very. unusual in the sense that it suddenly. seems like the US is asking Canada, and. I'm being a little facicious here, but. to basically operate as a 51st state to.

force US trade policy on another country. is to take that country's ability to. negotiate trade deals away. >> And certainly that is how the Canadian. side saw it. They saw it as an. encroachment into their sovereignty, particularly at the time where they're. trying to make trade deals with other. countries to help their economy because. their closest ally, the US, has slapped. tariffs on them, take it away from them. And so they find that unacceptable. Mhm. >> Another really specific issue that came.

up that we discussed with our sources. was that the United States wanted Canada. to remove certain laws that require US. streaming companies operating in Canada. to favor Canadian content. Shows that. are made in Canada, including shows that. are in the French language and made in. Quebec. Now, this is just the holy grail. of Canadian politics, the protection and. promotion of the French language because. it is the language spoken in Quebec and.

in other provinces and it's just a. foundational thing in the bilingualism. of Canada. Very, very important. The. concession that was being asked would. sort of translate for example in let's. say Netflix surfacing a kebeekqua show. higher up on your screen if you were. based in Canada when you went online to. watch a show. >> which makes a certain amount of sense. >> is also what the US streamers do in the.

European Union where they sort of tailor. the offering promoted for the local. market. So the Americans were saying to. the Canadians, we don't want any. streaming service to show that kind of. preference for French language, Canadian. content in streaming. We want you to. operate again more like the US. >> They didn't say anything about the. French language. They just said, "We. think this is a matter of free speech. and no one should be telling our. streamers what they put where and in.

what order.". >> Interesting. >> Right. >> But for the Canadians, this was vital. And if nothing else, I think both sides. kind of agree that the US just didn't. have a lot of regard, didn't have a lot. of time for that kind of sensitivity, which was clearly so so important to the. Canadian side. >> Mhm. And one of the real points of. contention that we reported on. exclusively and it hasn't been reported. previously in these talks was that the. United States wanted Canada to cancel a.

program that it had put in place to help. its industries suffering from US tariffs. called by Canadian which basically told. Canadian government entities to. prioritize buying Canadian products for. public sector projects like you know buy. Canadian steel to build this bridge. which actually is a program that exists. in many countries including the United. States. And the US asked Canada to. cancel this program without offering to.

remove the tariffs that the program was. supposed to be sort of countering at. home. And I think that really irked. Canadians. >> Mhm. >> And the math was not adding up for the. Canadian side. They were constantly. running the numbers on the proposed. improved US tariffs on some of their. goods. I'm talking steel, aluminum, autos, and they kept going back and. saying, "Well, you have to improve this. because it doesn't matter if you cut. your tariffs on SUVs to 15%." Because.

under this regime, we're soon not going. to have an industry making SUVs because. it's it's not enough. M so Canadians. determined that this deal was still. going to cost them key industries like. their automaking industry and therefore. was not tolerable. >> That's right. I think they could see. that perhaps there would be some relief. in the short run but still not enough to. make those industries viable. Mhm. >> And ultimately too, there was something. that really highlighted the lack of.

trust underpinning these talks and that. was that the Canadian side repeatedly. asked for some assurances that the new. tariffs wouldn't be revised that. basically that the US would stick to its. agreement and officials told us that at. no point did the US make any such. commitment. In fact, they insisted that. they retain all the power to change. their tariff policy even on goods.

covered by this agreement against Canada. at will. So, objectively speaking, I'm. not a trade expert, but I'm listening to. you carefully. This is not sounding like. a good deal for Canada. It is kind of. impinging on its ability to do trade. deals, on its sovereignty. It's. potentially putting key industries out. of business and it is implying, if not. explicitly stating, that it could all be. torn up by President Trump at any given. moment and made worse.

>> I think that's a fair summary and I. think that's definitely how the. Canadians see it and the American. negotiators would say that's still the. best deal we're offering anyone right. now. So, you should take it and you. should say thank you. [music]. But by quarter to 11 Friday, Mark Carney. [music]. has decided that he's not going to go. for it. And we find out that he's walked. away. >> Okay. >> Good morning everyone. Bonjour. >> And the next morning, he addresses the.

Canadian public in this sort of quietly. seething but really really resolved. [music] press conference. For over a. year, Canada has worked intensively and. in good faith with the United States to. negotiate a new comprehensive trade. deal. We've been pragmatic, patient, and. persistent. >> And he says, "We tried, but I had to. walk away from a bad deal. >> We were not prepared to compromise.

Canada's sovereignty [music] or to. undermine our key industries." and he. says, "We've been attacked [music] and. we're going to retaliate. We're going to. take out more counter tariffs against. the United States." The gap between. partnership and competitor, unfortunately, has remained too wide in. recent days. We cannot accept what. they've offered and we will not give. what they've asked. >> So, he basically puts the country on a.

war footing. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Antina, what exactly is Prime Minister. Carney's plan for what is now looking. like a no holds bar, very prolonged. potentially trade war against the US? And how does he ever see it working out.

well for Canada? You earlier started to. hint a little bit at his strategy, but. just talk us through the details of what. [snorts] you called the bet that he is. attempting here. >> Well, I think Michael, he's going to try. and do two things. The one is really. focus at the economy at home, trying to. protect those hurting from those tariffs. and build up the economy. And the other. is focus in a laser sharp way on ways in.

which Canada can inflict pain on. politically important places in the. American economy through the counter. tariffs that he's taking out. Okay, let's talk about those one by one. Starting with how he can protect. Canada's economy and Canadians from what. will be the probably outsized impacts. within Canada of ratcheting up a trade. war. >> Yeah. So, he's already said there's.

going to be pain. He's under no. illusions that these tariffs and counter. tariffs are going to hurt Canadians. In. fact, he said so explicitly in his. address on Saturday. But he also said, "We're going to do whatever it takes to. protect you." And so he's planning. public spending to support the. industries and the workers that are. going to be hurting. He's not detailed. what that's going to look like. I'm. speculating here, but it could be. [clears throat] bailouts or injections. of cash in some of these businesses. It. could look like employment security.

schemes. It could look like improved. borrowing terms or tax relief. But he. has said he's going to be there and he's. going to put the country's budget behind. those pain points in the Canadian. economy. >> That's really interesting because that. does sound like war footing. The economy. will be oriented, it sounds like, around. butressing industry, borrowing. potentially large sums of money to help. something like the auto industry. I. mean, we've seen bailouts in the US.

They're very expensive, but they can. work. >> Yeah, for sure. And especially in crisis. moments like this. And not to carry on. too far with the war metaphor, but he. will also continue looking for allies. outside the United States to support the. Canadian economy. Just in a few weeks. time in midepptember, he's organizing a. massive investment conference. I'm. talking the biggest funds, the biggest. banks, the biggest sovereign funds in. the world coming to Toronto to find ways. to invest into the Canadian economy.

Prime Minister Carney is continuing his. travel globally to cut new trade deals. I think he's due in Brazil soon. He's. talking with Merkasur, the Latin. American trading block. And that doesn't. necessarily mean these entities would be. taking a position against the United. States, but they would be supporting new. sources of revenue and investment for. the Canadian economy. How supportive, based on your reporting, are Canadians. of Carney's approach to this, the.

decision to walk away from these talks. and their confidence in his ability to. protect them from the fallout of doing. that. >> I mean, extremely supportive. Right now. in Canada, Mr. Carney is basically walks. on water. A poll released on Sunday uh. by Angus Reed, a nonpartisan independent. Canadian public opinion company, shows. that 76% of Canadians support the prime. minister's decision to walk away from.

the negotiating table. >> That's huge. >> That is many, many more Canadians than. voted for him. Right. So, this isn't a. partisan issue anymore. >> Right. 76% of a country basically never. agrees on anything anymore. >> Absolutely. But it's worth saying it. will only go downhill from here. Right? In the same poll actually, Canadians. expressed a lot of concern about their. livelihoods, about the economy, about. the industry, and about the country's. continued safety when it's in such an. intense antagonism with the United.

States. And so I think as that pain. starts to bite, that support is going to. start coming down. And the prime. minister is aware that there's a window. in time for him to make things better. and really demonstrate to the Canadian. public that he knows what he's doing. >> I want to return to what you described. earlier as Carney's plans to use. retaliatory. trade tactics to target. politically sensitive areas in the US. I'm guessing that Carney knows well that.

this is a midterm election year in the. US. He understands how that works. What. might that retaliation look like and. what is he hoping it leads to in the US? >> Right. I think the prime minister has. been really careful. He doesn't want to. antagonize the American public. He. believes the American public can be an. ally for Canada in this situation. because most Americans don't really. understand why Trump is targeting. Canada. But he does believe that he has.

a window of opportunity to take out. retaliatory tariffs against the United. States focused on areas mostly in red. states and industries that are going to. then go to President Trump and ask him. to stop it with Canada. >> and cry uncle and say do whatever it. takes to stop this. What would be an. example of the kind of retaliatory. action that Carney could take that would. lead to that kind of conversation with. Trump in theory?

>> I'll give you an example with something. we've already spoken about today, which. is the ban of the sale of US alcohol. products in Canada. We know that this. has been very very painful for example, you know, for bourbon distillers in. Kentucky. So, we know that those. industries have been in the. administration's ear asking for the. fight to be resolved and for the sale of. their goods in Canada to be restored. And I think that's what Carney is hoping. multiplied. >> And the Canadian officials are doing.

their homework. Where are industries. based that are going to hurt Trump? So. for example, the prime minister. mentioned a number of other categories. of products including household products. that we know are predominantly made in. Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky. So that's. really what they're looking for. They're. looking for specific categories of. products that are going to inflict pain. in specific Republican pockets of. support. It feels Matina like the wager. Carney is making is grounded in a deeper.

truth because while Canadians. overwhelmingly. support Carney pulling out of these. trade talks based on that poll you just. mentioned, polling here in the US shows. that a clear majority of Americans. disapprove of Trump's trade war against. Canada and more broadly of his entire. approach to trade in the second term. So. Carney's logic would seem to be that he. can rally Canadians to make the. sacrifices required to get through this. and they will support him because they.

think it's righteous and if he can keep. wounding President Trump politically. where it matters in the US there's not. going to be as much support for his. agenda. But where that would seem to get. tricky really fast is that it's probably. hard to do that without antagonizing. Americans, which you said was Carney's. goal. How can you hurt American industry. without hurting the Americans who work. in those industries? >> Yeah, for sure. And I I don't think that. Mark Carney is motivated to not hurt.

Republicans. >> He's acknowledged that these counter. tariffs are going to hurt Americans as. well as Canadians. He said, "We are. taking these measures reluctantly. We. didn't start this. He keeps saying this. This isn't our war. We got attacked, but. we got to fight.". And so I think in that context he wants. to take that fight to the people who. voted for Trump. >> And there are big big tools he could use. to inflict pain on the US that he's not.

going to use. He has said he's not going. to use even though he's under pressure. to do so. The most important example of. that is Canadian exports of energy. Canada is the single biggest source of. imports for energy in the United States. There is an absolute dependence on these. products. But imposing tariffs or. restrictions on those exports to the US. would hurt all Americans in some ways. feed into this spiral of cost of living. crisis in the United States because of.

the oil crisis in the Middle East. And. Carney doesn't want to do that because. he doesn't want to turn the whole. American public against him. Particularly at a moment where a lot of. Americans, I think, think he's doing the. right thing. I'm just trying to. understand what Carney's endgame is. If. he's successful in punishing industries. in Republican states and if he's. successful in winning American voters to. his side, where does that ultimately get. him in a punishing trade war led by a.

president who often is unmoved by. appeals from either industry or. consumers? >> I think two things. I think it helps him. fund some of the measures back home cuz. those tariffs are going to bring in. revenues for the Canadian budget, but I. also think it creates an atmosphere. around the cause of Canada in the United. States and he stays firm. He stays. resolved. We know President Trump may be. angry with him right now, but. appreciates a strong guy across him at.

the table. >> Interesting. and he tries to take that. to President Trump at a different moment. in the future. But there is no doubt. that Carney is playing the long game. here. If he was playing the short game, he would have taken the deal on the. table on Friday. >> Well, I'm glad you're thinking about. Carney because that's where I want to. end the conversation. We spend so much. time on this show analyzing President. Trump's. behavior in these kinds of conflicts. And I'm glad that we're focused on. Carney because that's how I want to end.

this conversation with what you think. you and frankly all of Canada is. learning about Mark Carney from the way. that he's handled this conflict. And it. occurs to me that when he gave that. speech in Davos many months ago, he was. applauded by world leaders for declaring. a kind of independence from the US. But. those world leaders basically none of. them replicated his actual conduct of. standing up to the US. He's quite alone.

in doing that and in having the backbone. or the delusions depending on which side. you're on that this will work out. So. what would you say you're taking from. how he's handled this? [snorts]. >> Yeah, I mean I think it's important to. remind people Mark Carney was not a. retail politician until a year and a. half ago, right? He's a kind of career. economist. So when he came to Canada age. 60, he came home to do this. And I think. he launched a really confident.

alternative. vision for Canada. A Canada that would be independent of. the United States. It would export all. this incredible resources that it has. And it would not be that kind of. stereotypical kind of like little cousin. to the US meek and just polite. And it's. a generational shift, >> but it's a gamble. If it takes too long. to implement and if it just isn't enough.

to sustain the Canadian economy, it will. be a very, very serious problem. On the. other hand though, if it does work and. if Canada is able to stand on its own. two feet in a much more substantial way. and particularly by forging these. relationships with other countries. What. a powerful thing that will be too and. and what an incredible sort of thing for. the rest of the world to look at it will. be that he took that risk and it paid. off. But that is a very long-term.

project and the trade war is happening. today. What you're describing sounds not. just like an economic project, but a. project to redefine the entire Canadian. psyche. >> Yeah. I think he's doing nation building. and identity building in Canada and he's. asking Canadians to see the country the. way he sees it. And so I think it is. fascinating. It's not something we see a.

lot in the West. We don't see that. happen. But it also right now means. standing up to the superpower next door. And [music] I I think that's really. really hard. >> Well, Matina, thank you very much. Appreciate it. >> Thank you, Michael. >> You can read more from Matina Steves. Gridf [music] and all of our. international reporters on the New York. Times app. If you don't already have the.

app, [music] we wanted to let you know. that if you download it right now, you'll get access to everything on it. for [music] free for the next month. So, give it a try. [music]. We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. day. [music]. On Monday, the Supreme Court allowed the. Trump administration to move forward for. now with plans to restrict mail-in.

voting before the midterm elections, but. it cautioned [music] that the order was. preliminary and not a final decision on. whether Trump's actions on mail-in. ballots [music] will be lawful. The. court's three liberal justices dissented. on the emergency ruling with one of them. warning that the decision would inject. [music]. quote chaos and uncertainty into the. midterm elections. And the Trump administration launched.

what it said was its most wide-ranging. assault [music] yet on Iran's economy as. it replaces military attacks, which. paused nearly a month ago, with. financial attacks. In the Second World. War, D-Day marked the historic beginning. of a campaign with our allies to target. and drive the enemy from its positions, including those in third countries. [music]. Today, in that same spirit, we are.

launching an economic onslaught against. Iran's financial connections around the. globe. Treasury Secretary Scott [music]. Besson said that the effort would begin. with new sanctions against 60 entities. that enable Iran to obtain weapons and. sell oil and suggested that the ultimate. aim [music] was the collapse of the. Iranian government. >> To the ordinary soldiers supporting this. regime, as more and more of your. paychecks stop or supposedly just. delayed, ask whether your commanders are.

leading your country to triumph or to. ruin. and recall that the Berlin Wall. fell when ordinary soldiers decided not. to shoot at their own people. [music]. >> But it's unclear how much impact the new. policies will have. Previous rounds of. sanctions have already crippled much of. Iran's economy. And yet, the [music]. government there has repeatedly found. ways to finance its military.

Today's episode [music] was produced by. Carlos Prito, Diana Wyn, and Shannon. Lynn. [music] It was edited by Devin. Taylor, and Liz O Balen. Contains music. by Rowan Misto, [music] Pat McCusker, and Dan Powell, and was engineered by. Chris Wood. Our theme music is by. Wonderly. That's [music] it for the daily. I'm. Michael Bubaro. See you tomorrow.