Call My A.I. Agent

From the New York Times, I'm Natalie. Kitroof. This is the daily. Over the last few weeks, millions. [music] of people have rushed to. download a new class of powerful AI apps. called [music] agents. They're. incredibly useful. They're honestly kind. of cute, and all they need to work is. your most sensitive personal. information.

Today, [music] my colleague Eli Tan on. why he and so many Americans are opening. up their [music] entire lives to. technology that we're just beginning to. understand. It's Tuesday, [music] October 6th. Eli Tan, first time on the Daily and we. are very happy to have you on the show. Happy to be here. >> Okay, so we've been talking a lot here.

recently on the daily about artificial. intelligence gone ary, AIs going rogue, doing things they shouldn't, hacking. into places they shouldn't, aka AI. behaving badly, doing things that feel. scary to a lot of people. But you, Eli, have been focusing on a very different. side of AI, a potentially very helpful. version of this technology. and we want. to talk about what exactly that has. looked like. So, just tell us what.

you've been up to. >> For the past few weeks, I've given my. life over to this app called Muse, which. is an AI agent created by the company. Meta. And it's really the first agent of. its kind that's been released to the. public. Think [snorts] of an AI agent as. a chatbot that has access to its own. computer where it can use a monitor and. a keyboard and a mouse. So instead of. just conversing with you like a person, it can actually go online and do tasks.

for you and work on its own autonomously. in the background for hours at a time. >> Basically, it can be your personal. assistant, right? Powered by AI and not. in this case an AI chatbot, but an AI. agent. Exactly. A personal assistant is. what Meta is calling it. And in the. world of AI, these agents are a real. leap forward in the kind of technology. that right now mostly powers chat bots. Agents can operate software, they can.

operate apps, they can sign into your. accounts. And the hope here is that. because these agents can do so much more. than chatbots, they can become much more. useful in a way that the chatbots have. not. Well, can it do something for me, this agent? >> Yeah. I mean, what do we wanna what do. we want to do? Like, >> uh, I have a desire for lunch, a sort of. salad like thing with protein. Um, can. you do that? Can it do that?

>> It can. Let me ask it right now. >> Okay. I'm saying my colleague Natalie is. hungry for lunch. She wants some kind of. salad. Can you order her delivery to the. office? I'm giving it the address and then I'm. saying you can use my credit card, which. it has on file. >> Okay, I'll pay you back. >> And if you don't pay me back, I'll have. it uh send you an email reminder uh in. one week and it'll check my Venmo to see.

if it ever comes through. >> Wow. Okay, so this is a real. accountability thing. Got it. And so. wait, like just so I'm clear, so it has. your Venmo, it has your credit card. Is. it connected to a delivery service that. you have as well? >> Yes, it's also signed into my Door Dash. account. >> Got it. >> And it says happy to order the lunch. I'm being asked just to approve that. this is the right lunch. So, it. suggested a harvest bowl from Sweet. Green. >> Okay. Unfortunately, that is actually my.

favorite order from Sweet Green. So, I'm. getting a little freaked out. >> It's my favorite order, too. Maybe. that's why. >> Oh, interesting. Okay. So, it assumes we. have the same taste. >> Yes. And then it says placing the order. And right now I can actually watch it do. this whole task on a little browser. window where I can see its cursor kind. of moving through the screen clicking on. the different buttons. Just. >> Are you watching it right now? >> I am. Yeah, I have it. >> Can [music] I see it? >> So here it is. It's typing the address. of the office. >> Oh my lord.

>> And and putting in the order. >> This is [music] nuts. >> Lunch is on the web. All right. So this thing, this service, this has long been the goal of these. companies, right? To get AI to not just. answer questions, but to complete tasks. in the world on behalf of human beings, to order you lunch, to make. appointments, etc. How did Meta get here.

first? I think of Meta honestly as a. company that's at the back of the pack. in terms of the AI race. >> Exactly. About a year ago, Meta had. fallen behind in the AI race. They were. developing their own models to compete. with companies like Anthropic and. OpenAI, but they were getting beat. So. Mark Zuckerberg, the chief executive of. Meta, he decided to do this drastic.

revamp of their entire AI division and. they spent billions of dollars hiring. new researchers. So while companies like. open anthropic were focused on creating. these really advanced AIs and building. AI tools for coding that could you know. help you with work. Mark Zuckerberg's. goal he said was to create AI products. that even his mom could use. >> And what did that mean? Like how did he. [clears throat] envision that actually. occurring? So Mark Zuckerberg's vision.

was really about this super intelligent. personal assistant that could work 247. on your behalf and help with your. finances or your health or your personal. life. And he envisioned it like the. other apps that Meta owns, Instagram, Facebook, something that you know. millions or billions of people could use. without themselves having to be really. techsavvy or actually know much about. AI. >> AI for dummies basically. >> AI for dummies. Exactly. And around this.

time, this app comes out that becomes. all the rage in Silicon Valley. It's. called OpenClaw. It's an AI agent that. was made by this Austrian programmer. named Peter Steinberger. And it's the first real autonomous agent. that blows away the developer community. and everyone starts using it. >> People can give over their computers to. it and it can do all sorts of tasks that. agents previously were not able to do. And what are all of the Silicon Valley.

users of this app actually doing with it. at this point? >> A lot of them are using it to write. code. So instead of having to sit at. your computer, Open Clock could run what. are called loops where it's basically. prompting for itself for hours at a time. in the background. So all of a sudden, people in the valley, including. employees at Meta, are using OpenClaw, deploying dozens of these agents to. write code for them all day long. And. eventually, you know, some employees at. Meta, including some of their.

executives, they start to get creative. and find ways to use OpenClaw in their. personal lives. So, at one point, Nat. Freiedman, who's the head of AI product. at Meta, [snorts] he gives his OpenClaw. the goal of making sure his fitness was. better and making sure he was hydrated. And it connected to cameras inside his. house and it would watch him move around. his house and it would say, "Nat, go. drink some water. You're dehydrated.". and he would go to the kitchen, he would. pour himself a glass of water and it. would say, "Good job.".

>> Wow. >> He even connected it to his Tesla and at. one point it rerouted him to Whole Foods. and ordered him magnesium to pick up and. said, "We I think that you should be. taking this magnesium." And he did it. >> Okay. >> Now, the thing about OpenClaw is that it. was the first tool to really show what. these agents can do, but it was also a. product that had all these issues with. it. First of all, you had to be pretty. technical to use it, but there were also. all these security concerns, and it was. really unruly. It would often go rogue.

It was not the kind of thing that you. could give to millions of people or. people like Mark Zuckerberg's mom just. to use in their everyday lives. But. nonetheless, it got the ball rolling for. the executives at Meta to create. something like OpenClaw that could be. more polished, more usable, and. something that they thought could really. be the first big AI product hit. >> They're basically looking at this and. thinking, we can turn this into a. consumer product that a lot of people.

would actually use in their day-to-day. life. >> Yes. And they were thinking we can be. the first company because of all the. resources that Meta has to really bring. an agent like this into the masses. >> And when we're talking about the. resources that Meta has, we're talking. about all the companies it owns, right? Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp. Obviously, this isn't just an AI lab. This is a company with a ton of. experience making things that people use. every single day. >> That is right. While they don't have as.

long of a history of making the most. cutting edge AI, what they do have a. history of is making products that. people use. And they also know a ton. about users already and the types of. things that they'd want to do. So they. thought, okay, we can combine these. things. We can have people connect to. their Instagram, Facebook accounts, and. we can make an assistant that has. advantages that none of the other AI. startups will have. advantages to the. tune of what three billion or so users. that are on one of Meta's products.

>> Yes. Three and a half billion people. that already use Meta's products for. hours and hours every day. >> Mhm. >> So by April, they had a version of this. that was pretty good at all the things. that they wanted it to do. and they. spend the next five months polishing it. and and making sure all the safety. features are up to their standards and. then in September they release it to the. public and they make it free to use. >> Okay. And talk to me about the decision.

to make it free. Obviously that gets a. lot of people to start using your thing, but how does Meta make money off it if. it's free? Well, this is another. advantage that they have, which is that. they have a whole separate social media. business that makes billions of billions. of dollars every few months. So, they. can give this away for free and they can. worry about making money from it later. Right now, Muse, there's not ads inside. of it. Mark Zuckerberg said that in the. future they want to take a small fee of.

all of the things you buy using Muse, but for now, they're really not making. any money off of it. Their plan is to. get this in the hands of as many people. as they can. >> And how's that going? >> So far, it's been a bit of an early. success. Muse shot up the App Store. rankings. It was the number one app for. a few days. I don't know the exact. download numbers, but I know that it's. in the millions and for Meta after a. year of a lot of really unsuccessful AI. products, they're very pleased with the.

first few weeks and the reception for. Muse. I have to ask, in order to make. this happen, all of this requires that. you let Muse into an extraordinary. number of corners of your life, right? Not just your Door Dash, but it has your. credit card, your Venmo. I mean, you. really have to open the door to this AI. and fully let it in. >> Yes. In order for this app to actually. be useful, you have to give over all. aspects of your personal information to.

it in a way that I have never had to. trust any other app before. [music]. And normally I might have reservations. about that, but for the purposes of this. experiment and to really see, you know, all that this app could do and this. agent could do, I was willing to try it. out. [music]. We'll be right back.

All right, Eli, let's talk about your. personal experience with Muse. You said. you had to trust this app with just. about your entire life. What exactly did. that look like? Walk me through it. >> One of the first things I did was I. signed into my credit cards, my bank. account, my Wells Fargo American. Express. I connect it to my Gmail. account so it could go into my email and. read it every day. I gave it access to. my calendar. I gave it my address, my.

phone number. I gave it my girlfriend's. email and her address. >> Oh my. >> In case I wanted to send her something. Yeah. I thought of all the possible. personal things about myself and I I. gave it all to Muse. >> Wow. Okay. And did that give you pause? Were you nervous about doing that? >> I was. Yeah, even though Instagram I. feel like it it knows so much about me. and in my algorithm, you know, it was a. little bit jarring to see that. personally embodied by like this. character that was now talking to me and.

and texting me on its own throughout the. day about things I might be interested. in or making sure I sent something to my. dad for his 60th birthday cuz it. remembered that that was coming up and. asking me what kind of gift I might have. gotten him. Yeah, it became very. personal. I mean, Meta is this company. that has had issues with safeguarding. the privacy of its users in the past. Were you thinking about that? >> Absolutely. Yeah, Meta has had a ton of. issues. It's been an important part of.

their history, but if I'm being honest, the real concerns I had were more about. a rogue agent hacking into my. information more so than just Meta. knowing my privacy. One of the lines. that I personally drew was that I gave. it access to my personal email but not. my work email because I was too afraid. that it might email a source or those. contacts would be made public. And that. was a line that I wasn't willing to. cross. >> Okay. So once you openly embrace Muse, how did it go for you? I mean just.

describe the experience of it. >> It went surprisingly well in the. beginning. I started giving it the most. basic tasks. Things like order me. groceries for me to pick up on the way. home from work, put together a list of. all the subscriptions that I pay for and. see if there are any duplicates, try to. book me a hotel or a flight. And for. almost all these tasks, it was very. efficient. It could do them entirely by. itself, or it might have needed me to. help with one thing for a couple.

seconds, but otherwise, it could pretty. much do them all as planned. Hm. >> Then I gave it instructions to do more. complex tasks. And this was a time when. I wasn't really expecting much. I. thought, okay, it's probably great at. these simple things, but it might get. tripped up with the more complicated. stuff. >> And what was that more complicated. stuff? >> Telling it to call my dental insurance. and ask for the status of a. reimbursement that I had from a recent. appointment. And I I didn't give it any.

of my information with the dental. insurance, but I said it's all in my. email. You can go check out the invoice. My member ID should be in there, the. date that I went in to visit, all of. this stuff. Like, just find it yourself. and try to do this. And. 10 minutes later, I get a call on my. phone while I'm sitting in the office. And I pick it up and the call it says, "Hey, Eli, this is your AI agent. Anthem Dental is on the other line.

[music] They're ready to talk to you.". And it buzzed me into the call and they. knew exactly what I was calling about. And they had they had the exact right. person [music] on the line. >> What? This is crazy. >> So for this insurance case, I looked at. the transcript and it had found my. member ID. It had answered a security. question. When is your birthday? It had. basically gotten through all these. layers that are meant to make sure that. I'm human. >> Oh my god. Waiting on hold is the exact [music] use.

case that I want AI for. Can I just say. like that's good. >> Me too. of all the things that it can. do. If all it could do is just wait on. hold for airlines and my dental. insurance, like that to me would be. useful, I would use it just for those. purposes alone. [music]. Okay, so that's pretty impressive. Was. it always that good at these more. complex tasks? >> No, it wasn't always that smooth. That.

was probably the best example. A lot of. the times it just wouldn't work. it. would hit some kind of snag. At one. point, it took me 15 minutes to get a. movie ticket to an AMC movie that I. tested on my own. It took me 35 seconds. to do on my own. Another example, it has. all these features of things that can do. for you that I didn't find personally. interesting even when it worked. So, it. created an AI podcast for me with these. two AI hosts, Maya and Theo, that it was. supposed to have all my interests every.

morning. I could listen to this on the. way to work. And I did listen to it on. the way to work. No, Eli, >> it was pretty awful. The host, you know, they were monotone and it was boring and. it was like just listening to, you know, customer service robots talking to each. other for 10 minutes. I have not. listened to an episode since ending the. experiment. >> Yeah, I I was under the impression you. could not replace the indisputable charm. of podcast hosts, Eli. I thought that. podcast hosts were immune to AI. disruption. >> They are immune to AI disruption, and. any company trying should just give up.

because it's it's never going to work. I. also had this thought when I was using. Muse for my fantasy football league. So, I gave it the link to my league and and. my password and I said, "Okay, you're. going to be like my general manager. You're going to make trades for me. Figure out who to pick up, you know, advise me on on all the things." And it. was just surprisingly outdated and also. it was relying on like emotions and and. at one point it it told me, you know, you have Patrick Mahomes on your bench, but he's a Super Bowl champion. and like.

you might want to think about, you know, starting him over Trevor Lawrence or. whoever it was. And all the advice has. been bad so far. I've lost every single. week of uh my fantasy football league so. far this year. >> Okay. Just setting aside the quality of. the advice that the agent was giving. you, can I just ask about the decision. to have an AI agent manage your fantasy. football team with you? Cuz it may seem. silly or superficial, but to me, this is. one of the clearest examples actually of.

how this technology can end up warping. our understanding of the joy of using. our brains. Like fantasy football is. supposed to be a hobby. It's supposed to. be a fun distraction from the grind of. daily life. Obviously, people, you know, have too many leagues. They have a lot. of money on the line. Maybe they want AI. help, but at a basic level, this is. supposed to be a way to connect with. your friends and we offload that onto. AI. Explain that to me, Eli. What is the.

point? >> Yes. This is actually my biggest. criticism of Muse and AI agents, which. is that we're using them for things that. they can do, but we should probably just. be doing them ourselves, right? Another. example of this is when I had Muse call. my bookstore to see if there was a book. in stock and I watched the transcript of. it talking with the guy at the bookstore. who I enjoy talking to. >> and I would have rather just either. picked up the phone or god forbid go to.

the bookstore two blocks away and talk. to him in person and and browse the. shelves. >> And why did you outsource that stuff to. a robot if you actually enjoy those. human interactions? Well, when I first. started using Muse, I thought I might. just use it for certain things, like. just calling my insurance or just. ordering food. But what I found was that. I ended up relying on it for everything. And instead of a lot of times just. thinking for myself, my first instinct. was to go to Muse and ask it instead. At. one point, I pulled out my phone to ask. Muse to preheat the oven to make the.

dinner that I was making with all the. ingredients and bought me. >> Eli. It's like I had just given over all. my cognitive ability to this thing and. it was concerning like I really felt. like you know it had taken over my brain. and I think that takeover is really what. the companies imagine all of us to be. using these kind of agents for. That's. the vision that they have. I just want. to push on that and how realistic it. actually is. It sounds like to get this.

tech, these agents to work the best they. can, these companies really need people. to give them unfettered access into. their entire worlds. But a lot of. people, especially at this particular. moment, have questions about these. companies. They don't necessarily trust. them and they may be pretty reluctant to. do that. I mean, the dominant. conversation right now about AI has. been, is it going to be a threat to. humanity? So, do they see that as a potential.

obstacle here? I think they do. And. also, the reason that this technology is. able to do things like hack into. governments and go rogue, it's also the. same reason that it's able to be more. helpful is because it's it's evolving. It's getting more advanced. And I would. say, you know, from my point of view. that the companies have the strategy, OpenAI and Metadoo, where they are going. to market these agents like they are. little labu characters. So when you. download the app, everyone has an avatar.

named Muse, but then the first thing it. does is it asks you to name it and give. it its own personality. My avatar, it. name is Ren. Ren's a bird, so it's a. little a little bird with these little. brown feathers. Okay, >> so these avatars, they're cuddly, they're furry, and the thinking I think. is that why would you be worried? It's. just a little guy. It's just a little. fuzzy guy. It's totally okay if he has. your information because he's he's not. nefarious. He's not going to go rogue.

Oh, this the sweet green order is is. ready for you in the lobby. That's what. the buzzing was. >> Oh my god, my order is here. I need a. humanoid robot to go pick it up because. I'm currently hosting this podcast. Eli, I need you to [music] hang tight. because I have to physically go and pick. something up. >> Okay. >> Hi. Are you here for Natalie?

Oh, for Eli. Yes. Thank you so much. Wow. >> A harvest full. Thank you. Oh my. goodness. All right, we got it. I mean, it worked. >> Yeah, it did. >> I didn't doubt you, [music] but there's. something about just receiving.

a package that was ordered to me by an. AI agent that is bananas. Yeah, we were. just asking uh if you got it and it, you. know, it sent me a photo of you picking. it up, so I knew. >> No, >> I knew it had worked. >> Oh my god. Okay. I mean, I checked. It. is in fact a harvest bowl. >> Does it have protein in it? Did it Did. it meet all the requirements? >> It does. And. it's crazy. The experience is crazy as. advertised.

Eli, let's just say there is a universe. in which everyone starts to have these. kinds of experiences all the time where. there is truly widespread adoption of. these AI assistants. Just to step back, how do you think that would change the. way that we interact with the world with. our own reality? Well, the companies have this really.

optimistic view where they're saying if. we use AI agents to wait on hold for us. and fill out forms and order groceries. and do all the things we don't want to. do, instead of sucking up our time, they'll actually be giving it back to us. and we can use that extra time to. connect with our family or other people. or go out into the world and do the. things we want to do. And on the one. hand, I can maybe see this happening. I. mean, I used this app and it did do all.

those things. It saved me time. It. waited on hold, made me spreadsheets. [music]. But I think it's also fair to be. skeptical of that vision given the track. records these companies have and how. much already their products, like. Instagram reels, for instance, can make. us feel like we're detaching from. reality instead of connecting more with. it. >> [music]. >> Okay. Well, for now, I'm just going to.

be happy to have my salad, Eli. And. don't worry, I'm going to Venmo you. You. don't have to send your AI agent after. me. >> Well, I already told it to to look out. for your Venmo. So, if if it doesn't. come through, you'll be hearing from it. >> Perfect. [music]. Eli, thanks for coming on the show. >> Thanks so much for having me. You can hear more from our tech. journalists on the Times podcast Hard. Fork, which just returned with a [music]. new guest host, Max Reed.

Episodes drop every Friday, [music] so. check them out wherever you get your. podcasts or on the New York Times app. We'll be right back. [music]. Here's. what else you need to know today. [music]. On Monday, President Trump reversed.

course and announced that his super PAC. would now pay for nationwide TV ads that. have been promoting him at taxpayer. [music]. expense. More than $10 million in taxpayer funded. ads have run since September, [music]. paid for through a contract that used. funds from the Department of Homeland. Security. At least one of the ads. featured [music] footage that originally. appeared in a Trump campaign video. Democrats and some Republicans had. criticized the ads as a possible. violation of federal [music] laws for.

using public funds for propaganda. Trump. said in a social media post on Monday. that [music] the ads were quote positive. promotion for our great USA and defended. them [music] as quote a rather standard. thing to do. Today's episode was produced by [music]. Stella Tan and Carlos Prito. It was. edited by Mark George [music] with help. from Michael Benois, contains music by. Dan Pal and Marian Lozano and was. engineered by Chris Wood. [music] Our.

theme music is by Wonderland. [music]. That's it for the daily. I'm Natalie. Kitroth. See you tomorrow.