'Book Review': Robert Caro on 50 Years of 'The Power Broker'

hey everyone it's Michael as you might. have noticed we're putting something. different down our feed today it's a. recent episode of our New York Times. podcast about books hosted by Gilbert. Cruz in this particular episode Gilbert. speaks with the writer Robert Caro about. his seminal renowned non-fiction book. The Power broker which is now 50 years. old if you haven't read it and there's. no reason to be embarrassed if you. haven't it's the story of Robert Moses. who shaped New York City but as the many.

people who are obsessed with the power. broker can tell you it's a singular. Fable of politics and Power in the. United States it's an incredible story. and an Incredible Book okay here is. Gilbert with Robert Caro on the New York. Times book review podcast take a. listen I'm Gilbert Cruz editor of the. New York Times book review and this is.

is the book review podcast this week I'm. joined by a modern master of biography. and history writing Mr Robert Caro he. has written four volumes of the years of. Lynden Johnson a multi-book work on the. life of the 36th president of the United. States volume three Master of the Senate. won the Pulitzer Prize volume four. passage of power appeared on our recent. list of the best books of the 21st. century so far before all that however. in September 1974 50 years ago he.

published the power broker a book about. the man who built modern New York City. Robert Moses Robert Moses built beaches. and Parkways he built Bridges and. expressways he built Lincoln Center and. sha stadium and the United Nations. Headquarters Robert Caro built the power. broker a book both Titanic and length. and scope and one that continues to be. read and discussed and obsessed over to. this very day. [Music].

Robert Carol welcome back to the book. review podcast pleasure to be here now. Mr Carol and I'm going to call you Bob. because we just discussed what I should. call you I don't want to necessarily go. through a summary of the book I want to. go through a summary of who Robert Moses. is I think if people are listening to. this interview they've read it or maybe. they've seen the documentary turn every. page from a few years ago about you and. Bob gotle hopefully I'm not going to ask. you to say things about Robert Moses. that you've been saying for past half.

century but 50 years is significant I. would argue that non-fiction biography. history a lot of it doesn't stand the. test of time in that way but the power. broker has and I'm. wondering why you think it has lasted as. this own monument in its way for so long. 50 years I'm not sure I know the answer. to that question I've been thinking. about that I I think people people are.

interested in power this is a particular. kind of power Robert Moses's power was. unchecked power we all live in a. democracy where we think that power. comes from our votes at The Ballot Box. here was a man who was never elected to. anything and he held on to power for 44. years almost half a century and with the. power this man who wasn't elected to. anything shaped New York and its. surrounding so.

so I think if you're interested in. government you have to say as I said. maybe 55 years ago when I started this. how did he do it what happened here no. one even I I have to say when I started. this book I don't think there was any. real. awareness even among Mayors and council. members and governors of where this. power came from do you have a sense this.

book being 50 years old that people that. go into. government read it and have read it I. know that many journalists pick it up. early in their careers because it is. such a sort of impressive achievement in. reporting and writing but when it comes. to people in government do you talk to. Congress people and senators and state. representatives who say I read the power. broker when I was 25 yes to be honest.

with you and what is their. takeaway they're very complimentary. about it I think over and over you he I. hear people say you exp this is you're. making me say boastful things I've never. read anything like it you've explained. to me what power where power comes from. at particular kind of power now I that. kind of thing of course I very wonderful.

to me to hear it and I think a lot of. the things that I learned in the book. still hold very true. today you have written so much about. power whether it's in this book or over. the the many volumes of your lynen. Johnson biography and said in a Paris. review interview the following and I. just I love the way you put it I'd love. for you to comment upon it further if. you can you said power doesn't always.

corrupt and you can see it in the case. of for example Al Smith or Sam Raburn. there power cleanses but what power. always does is reveal talk to me a. little bit more about that when you're. trying to get power when you're climbing. toward power maybe there are things in. you or ways that you're acting or to get. power that if people knew about them. they would be turned off on you or they. they'd be afraid of you but once you get.

the power once you have it then you can. act or do whatever you intended to do. all along a really good example of that. is lynon Johnson who for 20 years voted. with the south on every Civil Rights. bill even he he even voted against the. bill that would have made lynching a. federal crime and then he becomes.

president President Kennedy is. assassinated and he has to give a speech. to Congress four days later and he's not. even in the Oval Office yet he's still. living down in Spring Valley and he's. going to bed and downstairs there are. four of his speech writers his AIDS. working on the speech that he has to. give to Congress and reveal what kind of. president he's going to be and he comes. down and he's says basically how you.

doing and they say we're still not doing. very well but one thing we are all. agreed on don't make a priority out of. civil rights if you do that the southern. Senators who have the power in the. Senate will do the same thing to you. that they did to Kennedy and stop your. entire Congressional and they say it's a. noble cause one of them. says but it's not a cause that you. should fight for and Lyndon Johnson says.

what's a presidency for then and in the. speech he says our first priority should. be to pass Jack Kennedy's Civil Rights. bill and you. say if the southern Ken Southern. Senators had for all those years knew. how he felt they would not have raised. him to power so it's really in a way I. hope a perfect example of what you asked. me for is it possible to rise to power.

at least in in our system of democracy. without that sort of veiled part of you. that shadow part of you where you know. some things that you believe but you. know that if you tell people too loudly. that you'll never get what you want. which is to be in charge it's a terrific. question I and I can't answer it for in. the large sense for everybody I know. with Lyndon Johnson it was absolutely. necessary.

just to go in the Senate when he comes. to the sen well I forget the year but. this is approximately right there's 17. great standing committees of the Senate. and Southern is the chairman of 11 of. them they have the power if they don't. like you you are not going anywhere in. the Senate and he wants to rise the. power in the Senate he cannot let them. know and he's a genius at concealing. himself and if you want to know just how.

much of a genius he is in this regard. the leader of the South is Richard. Russell Russell the chapter is called a. Russell of the Russel of Georgia they. are a ruling family and he asked the. secretary of the senator is guy named. Bobby Baker he says everybody else who. comes to the Senate asks what are the. rules where do you sit Lyndon Johnson. only asked one question who has the. power here I had no trouble I said. Richard.

Russell Johnson doesn't ask for an. important committee he says what's. Russell's committee he's chairman of. armed services Lyndon Johnson says I'd. like to be on armed services because he. knows that's the only way he can spend a. lot of time with Richard Russell he. starts to to stay late at the Senate. because Russell is a bachelor very. lonely man and he stays late working now. Lyndon John stays working with them.

Richard Russell gets a hamburger late at. night before he goes home Lyndon Johnson. gets a hamburger with him Sunday. breakfast he invites ritard Russell over. or Sunday brunch more he has two little. girls Russell is very wonderful with. little children he loves that and they. love him and soon they are very close so. Richard Russell is sitting there right. in front of Lyndon Johnson when he's. become president and Lyndon Johnson says. our first priority has to become civil.

rights and afterwards one of the. Senators Southern Senators says to. Richard Russell what was that all about. and Richard Russell says a turn coat if. I ever saw one so he concealed his. feelings from the smartest of. man for I have to do it from 1948 to. 1964 for approximately 16 years.

I need to start staying late with my. bosses is the is the lesson taking away. from that you wrote the book is 50 years. old the power broker you wrote and. reported it more than 50 years ago I. wonder if there's anything. new that you have learned about Robert. Moses since publishing the book I. there's so much in this but did you ever. come across a new set of letters a new. archive a new assistant absolutely.

no wow that's. incredible you tapped every resource you. make me say boastful things but the fact. is I the answer to your question is. honestly no people keep sending me I. have a letter from Robert Moses it's not. that new material hasn't come but. nothing that would change anything of a. significance you have an office that you. walk to every day you were a Jackie we. TI you go to your same office the office.

is near Columbus Circle in Columbus. Circle used. to be a building called the New York. Coliseum that Robert Moses built the New. York Coliseum no longer exists and I. wonder if you ever thought about when it. was finally time for that to come down. how even the things that the master. builder builds not everything can stand. Oh I thought about that a lot because I. used to have an office there and I used. to look down on the Coliseum and I used. us to remember that Robert Moses used to.

say my Works will make. me that that's not a quote he used to. say things that meant my Works will make. make me Immortal and I think he is in a. way by the sheer number of Works some of. them will come down you know the. Coliseum did he build sha Stadium I. can't recall he was respons okay did. Shay Stadium no longer exists there. maybe a couple of other ones but by and. large the things the lines that he.

etched into a piece of paper are still. there and for all I know they'll be. there forever and more than that if I. may say. so the shape by which I mean the daily. lives of New Yorkers for example we have. a house in Eastern Long Island so where. I was we started driving into New York. on on a weekday night about 5 5:30 so. rush hour and at Port Jefferson it. started if you're commuting from Port.

Jefferson to Manhattan it's 2 and A2. about 2 and 1/2 hours each way that's 5. hours of your life every day 25 hours a. week a th000 hours a year and the tiing. hours you get home tired it didn't have. to be this way in the 1950s when Robert. Moses starts to build the Long Island. Expressway Long Island Eastern nassa. certainly suffered is mainly farms land.

is really cheap he is buying 70 M of. RightWay and he's building he's buying. 200 ft of it and everybody is saying to. him this land is cheap now but as soon. as the expressway opens up it's going to. be crowded you're not going to be able. to buy the land cheaply then you'll. never be able to afford her instead of. buying 200 ft right of way if you.

just 20 ft more 240 ft instead of 200. that's enough to build a light rail line. down the center of the expressway and. every 10 or 15 miles since the land is. so cheap you can build a huge parking. lot so people who want to drive to New. York or anywhere else on can drive but. if you don't want to you can use rail. line he's so afraid that this might H he. he refuses is to do it so they say okay.

if you won't build the light rail line. at least buy the 40 ft then in the. future someone can build it he's so. afraid that might happen that he doesn't. buy the 40 ft but he also builds the. foundations of the expressway so light. that light rail can never be put on it. so you say I was driving into New York. and I'm driving against however many. miles it is to Port Jefferson a solid. Lane of headlights coming out people.

trapped in their cars trapped every day. and I'm saying it didn't have to be like. this so let me ask you a question so you. live in New York you're from New York. you you understand now following the. writing of this book how New York City. Works in part because of the decisions. that this one man made even all these. years after riding the power broker do. you say to yourself godamn you Robert. boses why do I have to be caught in. traffic here because you did not want to.

put up this light rail I've never said. it quite like that but I have bored my. wife by saying you see all these cars it. didn't have to be this way yeah you have. such a well documented process and I. think people love to ask you about your. process and talk to you about your. process because it's so meticulous and. reliable and because clearly it results. of good work it results in some of the. best pieces of biography and history of. the past half half century but what do.

you think is the obsession with process. when it comes to being a writer well I. do get asked about it all the time. mostly uh with the feeling I can see in. their eyes schmuck every everybody else. people ask me I outlin the whole book. before I start writing and then I. outline each chapter as I get up to it. in great detail and then I write it in.

long hand and then I generally I have a. lot of drafts if you came to my office. in the late afternoon you'd see crumpled. up pieces of paper all over the place. and then I T then I type so I don't I. use a computer now a lot to take notes. because the Vietnam material and the. Lindon Johnson. Library it's just big I need to do it. but don't I don't use a computer in the.

writing everybody thinks it's aren't you. slower couldn't you be. faster for me it's more important to be. slow and it's not a it's not a blessing. or anything I'm proud of I just learned. the hard way that things go better for. me if I do it. slowly I can understand that because. everyone has to find their own way of. writing and and I certainly have talked.

to people who say I'm thinking with my. hand this is the way in which ideas and. connections and particular words and. transitions are coming to me and if I. did it on a computer or typewriter or. something else it just would not come. out the same way they can't explain why. they don't know what the connection is. between their brain and their hand and. the pencil and the paper but that's just. the way that it works yes and I imagine. that's true for. you yes when I was a newspaper man I was. for a time a rewrite man at Newsday and.

I was the fastest rewrite man you know. and Newsday then used to have five. editions because they had had an out. east Edition mids Edition and I'd sit. there with my headphones on if there was. a plane crash or something else and I'd. write five leads I can write fast mhm. when I started to do the power. broker I remember. thinking if you don't slow yourself down.

this book isn't going to be any good and. that's what I don't know exactly why I. thought that but now I realize that the. Way I Am Naturally is I write slowly did. you think if you can cast your mind back. to then did you think that if I wrote. this quickly in the way that maybe you. are uh inherently built to do you would. it would be sloppy you would miss stuff.

you wouldn't make certain connections. what was it I'll tell you one thing you. had to figure out what it was Robert. Moses did how did he get this power that. wasn't something that you learned. gradually people gave you hints creating. the Public Authority and all I remember. reading the bill that he drafted to make. himself chairman of the tri BR Bridge. internal Authority which was the heart. of his power and I remember thinking I'm.

not getting what he's doing in this bill. and it took me I think that the bill was. it was very long as I remember it was. like 40 pages long of small type and I. had to sit there and then suddenly I. said oh that's what he did and a lot. started to come clear for me then and. then you said why did he want to do. this or that or how did he think of.

Jones Beach the great early things that. he did so you would go to the his. engineers and people who don't and say. to them listen you talked about how he. used to walk along the dunes here and. sometimes you'd go with him what was he. like you'd ask these people over and. over again no what was he like what. would he do and you what you ask me. that's not a fast process it's it's not. even fast to get the person to realize.

oh I this young kid Caro he wants me to. talk about what he looked like yes. that's what I want that's what I wanted. him to talk about but it takes a long. time sometimes you have to go back to. the same person over and over again to. get him to tell you what you really want. to know you keep asking me why things. take so long that's why they take so we. should do this podcast three more times.

and then we'll get the right answers. what when did you know or when do you. know as an interviewer who as part of. your process as you just said you go. back or you ask the same questions over. and over again you go back to people. multiple times you're asking for their. time when do you know I need to back off. or I've asked this too many times or. they're getting annoyed or oh they often. get annoyed I I can't stop because how. do you know when you're pushing them to. the point just before them saying get.

out of here I'll give you an example of. that if you want on the Lindon Johnson. book and on on the power broker so he. had an aid named Joe califano I think. you probably know his name and he was in. the Oval Office a lot now I'm trying to. describe lynon Johnson in the Oval. Office and I'm asking califo over and. over I have to describe him right I'd. say would he always be at the desk and. califo would say no he'd be pacing. around a lot then you say what else.

would he do when he was pacing you know. would he stop and he said well he'd go. over to the Lyon Johnson had three. teletype machines Associated Press. United press and reiders in the office. in against one wall and he'd said he'd. go over and read the latest thing and. and you'd say what do you mean he'd read. the latest things and basically the. answer is schach I just told you he read. the latest things mhm I how did he read.

them he just read them so was he. standing up when he was reading them no. sometimes he was so anxious to see the. last line that he'd kneel down and with. both hands he take the piece of paper. that was coming out of the machine and. pull it towards him so he could get read. the last line side maybe I what I just. told you I may have been asking him. questions for three or four interviews. about that about what he looked like and.

it happens over and over again so that's. an intimidating process for one who for. someone else who may want to write a. biography or a piece of History it's. quite timec consuming and not only is in. timec consuming but I think anyone who. reads the power broker would agree that. is also as you have said many times you. tried to do a a real piece of literary. work you know it's not only the facts it. is the pros it's not only the pros but. it's Style and the Rhythm and the way.

that all of that fits together and. people talk time and again about the. lists that you put in the intro that you. talk about taking that from The Iliad. and I'm wondering how long it takes you. to find that right Rhythm how did you. know when you're riding the Parkways. that the Parkways go in this order and. they don't go in this order and actually. the Hutchinson River Parkway goes here. in the third sentence and not in the. first sentence how long does it take you. to do this long yeah long that which you.

just the example you gave I said. nobody's going to read a book about. Robert Moses in fact every Everybody. told me nobody's going to read a book. about Robert Moses I said I have to show. them I believe that he shaped New York. completely and part of it was shaping it. with all his the different. roads and I. said how am I going to do that you can't. just say he built 600 27 miles of Road.

that's going to get no one to read the. book and you can't just say he built. this Parkway and then this park that's. boring that's not going to get me either. and I thought you just mentioned it oh. I've seen a list of a lot of things and. it's in the ilot and I said how did he. do that he listed he showed the. immensity of the seege of Troy by. listing all the. ships I said so I'll list all the park. so I I remember typing this I said God.

this is boring you're just listing all. the park I said but maybe there's a. rhythm in this thing that will make. people read it on and see the immensity. of all the roads that he built and I. can't tell you you asked in a way very. polite way what takes my book so long I. can't tell you CU I don't but how many. days. really it took me to put the Parkways in.

the and the and the expressways in a. different in order and I hoped that got. people to to feel the immensity of what. this man do I certainly don't want to. give the impression that all I'm curious. about is why it takes you so long to. write books I I'm asking about how you. do it more than anything and and the. side effect of that is that it is time. intensive and clearly that has good. results but I'm not hammering you over.

how it takes you to write your books it. works for you and I think it works for. everyone that reads your book I'm. curious he built the major Degan. Expressway the Van Wick Expressway the. Sheridan Expressway and the Brookner. Expressway is it you saying no actually. the let me read it out loud with the. brockner expressway as the last one I'm. trying to picture you sitting down and. almost as if a puzzle reworking these. yes I'm reading I'm reading then all of. a sudden it came together in my mind.

what I wanted to do how to do it how to. do it and I. just it was very clear the next morning. I got up or I think probably I don't. really remember and wrote it out and it. seemed so simple to me I couldn't. understand why I. didn't know it before but I do think G. if I can. say that things like rhythm. are very important in nonfiction.

writing as well as in fiction writing. when we talk about literary things we. talk about it in terms of novels you. never hear it really to very seldom do. you hear it talked about what makes a. non-fiction book. great I believe that if you want people. to read a piece of. non-fiction and if you want it to door. the level of the writing the pros the.

Rhythm the word the choice of words. getting the right word is just as. important in non-fiction books as it is. in fiction. books we'll be right back. [Music].

welcome back this is the book review. podcast I'm Gilbert Cruz and I'm here. with Robert Carol author of the power. broker I think one of the great Delights. for anyone who's read at least one of. your books was watching that documentary. turn every page that came out years ago. just seeing you seeing your creative. partner and sometimes foil Robert gotle. talk about the ways in which you. approach this and I'm curious someone. who's written about power for so long.

what were the power dynamics like. between you and Mr gly was it constantly. shifting was. it from whence was the power derived. obviously he had the power he was the. publisher you have the words I picked. him as my editor because I saw he was. the only guy I ever met who cared as. much about writing as me that did not. mean we agreed about the writing mhm and.

we had terrible fights really real. fights over changes that he wanted and. maybe I didn't want to make that I. thought he was wrong but you really felt. even in the worst of your fightings you. felt that he was on he was thinking. about the same book as you were and. people keep asking me the people at. canoff some of them who would see these. hear the shouting or whatever why did.

you keep him as an editor he was not the. kind of editor that if he thought a. semicolon should be changed to a comma. and you said no you weren't going to. turn the page to the next page oh no you. were going to have to defend your choice. so that makes you I felt that makes you. think about what you're doing and I said. that's invaluable because otherwise. particularly when you become a little.

well-known nobody questions you right. you need I thought he was a very smart. man and you had to Think Through why you. had done what you had done that he. didn't like maybe you concluded he was. wrong but his arguments were had to be. dealt with can I imagine you could have. seen a scenario in which you had another. editor who once you became the man who. wrote the power broker maybe they didn't.

push back as much because what do I know. he's Robert Kerry wrote the power broker. but to have someone who was so. passionately engaged both on a a sort of. wide structural level but also on a. minute word to- word punctuation point. to punctuation Point level must have. been everything exciting and frustrating. and energetic after you've sat alone in. a room for all this time working on your. own yes that's right what you just uh. I'd love to ask you if you would love to.

talk about it about one of your other. key collaborators your wonderful. research partner aa aa your wife your. longtime wife who's been with you on. this journey for this whole time what. has it been like to have her by your. side in the Hill Country of Texas in the. LBJ archives just with you the whole way. I did the power broker for what I. kiddingly at first said the was the. world's smallest advance so we lived in. a I was a reporter lived in a house on.

Long Island totally out of money totally. out of money and I came home one day and. AA was standing in the driveway and she. said we sold the house today I hadn't. even known we were selling the house so. that got us enough it's before the real. estate boom we bought the house for. $45,000 and we sold it for 70 that's. $25,000 that got us through one year we. moved to an apartment in the Bronx but I.

had hardly started with the book and it. was very hard on her she didn't tell me. at the time that she had to keep. changing stores because we couldn't we. were in a bill but she wasn't really a. researcher then she what she did mostly. did on the power broker was typing but. then when we started this Johnson book I. came home one day and I said we moved to. a house on on the edge of the Hill. Country and I said to her one day I'm.

not understanding these people the. people of the Hill Country and the women. of the Hill Country because most of they. were all widows the men had mostly died. yeah and I said we're going to have to. move there and she just said great and. then I ran into I couldn't get the women. to talk to me they had lived lives if I. take a moment of such you said okay. here's a woman who was in a high school.

class of Lyon Johnson you're going to. interview her so she agrees after a lot. of calls to be interviewed she said and. the directions are something like you go. 43 miles on Route 22 look out for the. cattle crossing on the left turn left. and then you go like 18 miles on a rded. thing and at the end of it is a house. and you suddenly realize. you haven't passed the house since you.

left the highway and they didn't get. telephones until the N A lot of them. varied for year by year until the 1948. 4748 so they lived lives of what. loneliness and isolation they weren't. used to talking to strange men. particularly someone from New York City. with an accent I suppose like mine you. have an. accent and but I so I said to AA could.

you try and she revealed a Real Genius. for. interviewing they weren't very friendly. so we had three fig trees on our. property so she made fig preserves she. learned how to make fig preserves and. she'd C with a jar of fig preserves to. these women and she came back with the. most wonderful stories and understanding. of the lives of these people that are. now embodied in my book and then I.

realized I have on my hands here a great. researcher and Bill Moyers won't talk to. me and it was important to me that he. talked to me because for about 18 months. he was the person closest to lynon. Johnson Johnson regarded him almost as. his. son so AER is looking doing research in. papers and she does the I I sent her up.

to theater H white who wrote the ranking. of the president he gave his papers to. Bon University so I asked AA to go up. and go through his papers and she's gone. for about two weeks and I said I think. you've got everything you have to and I. remember said I have the feeling that if. I just keep going there's something. there and she wouldn't come home and as. it turns out David halberstam who Moyers. did talk to at Great length had given.

his notes to theor H white and they were. in Theodore H White's papers so although. Bill Moyers won't talk to me a lot of. what he told David halber stamp and I I. can't tell you over and over again she. would say something like I just have the. feeling there's something else and she's. just great now I I can't talk about AA. without saying she turned out to be not.

only a great researcher but a wonderful. writer we go she fell in love with. France and she's written two books the. road from the past and Paris to the past. about traveling the traveling around. France and knowing its history and how. much it adds to it they're wonderful. books so I had to learn about AA who I. had met when we were both very young. very gradually does she. as much as you must talk about LBJ at.

home she like all right you have your. thing now let me tell you all about. France. yes but we drive her I'm her chauffeur. in France oh very nice I drive her. hundred my image of France is us being. in a hotel in some remote place and. being woken up by the rattle of maps and. there's AA sitting with maps and she. said 180 km isn't too far for on a drive. for lunches so this is how you pay her.

back for all the the wonderful help. she's given you over the years one of. the ways that you have been able to. write these books is through looking. through papers yes I wonder often about. the difficulty of what it will be like. to write biography of modern of people. right now who don't have papers you. write emails those emails you write a. letter over email that's sent to someone. they respond over email there's no. carbon there's no trace of that anywhere. yeah I think that's a and you bring that.

up no one mentions that you just brought. up what I think is a terribly. significant thing like President Obama. talks about his Library being all. digital that sounds good except someone. has to decide what's. digitized uh then someone's making the. decision as to what's they want you to. see I don't mean this as it. nefariously I don't know what I.

certainly I think it would it's going to. change history a lot I can't tell you. the Johnson Library says they have 44. million documents I think it's 45. million now I can't tell you you just. make yourself sit there and say I had an. editor my first editor is the guy who. said turn every page I've never. forgotten that and the fact is that he. was right and I can't tell you how many. times you there are files in the Johnson.

line it's not very not always very they. didn't keep a very good file system when. he was in. Congress and that hasn't been improved. over the years and you say oh God. there's a file folder here called. General unarranged and it's about 8 in. thick and you say this is going to take. three let's say three weeks and you say. that's three weeks of your life and. you're getting older bom you're are you.

just wasting three weeks of your life. and I can't tell you how many times I've. said to. myself no turn every page and I can't. tell you how many times you find what. you're looking. for as you're going through this mass of. stuff with nothing interesting in it. suddenly what you're looking for is. there I just keep thinking about how. much focus it must take to be engaged in.

the file folder over 5 hours or whatever. and you you know it's easy to get bored. and maybe that one moment you you look. away and you're turning a page and you. miss something you just that you have to. focus that entire time yeah that's the. story. yes I can't tell you how many times you. say to yourself schmuck you. know or you say in a serious way way. you're getting older you won't finish. these books you've been on this chapter.

looking at papers for 6 weeks now you. found nothing stop and then you say but. John Connelly told you see at the. beginning everybody said Lyndon Johnson. never wrote anything down now John. Connelly who was later the governor of. Texas Secretary treasury said no that's. not always right and I said lynon. Johnson Rose to power because in the. 1940 elections when he's still how old.

is he than. 29 he suddenly is the guy giving money. out to. congressman and I asked John I said do. you think there's any Rec secretary. Conelly think is any record of that he. said oh yeah there's something called. John's lists MH I said we are there and. he I don't remember what he said but he. basically said something oh I don't know. he after in these file folders called. General H that so I'm looking as you.

said and you got to keep your focus on. it and you're sick of it you're sick of. it you've been doing it for two weeks. now and all of a sudden there it is the. most amazing four pages stap together. they're three they're typed by John. Connelly or by Johnson's other assistant. Walter junkins in 1940 in October 1940. before the election and they all list of.

what congressmen are asking Lynden. Johnson to give them in money so there. are three type columns in the leftand. column is the name of the congressman in. the center column is what he needs the. money for Lyndon I need pole watches. that I or Lyndon one more round of ads. will do it give me500 what they and then. on the right connly typed in how much. they're asking the amounts are so small. compared to $1,500 or something like.

that but in the leftand margin in. handwriting Lyndon Johnson's handwriting. is what he decided or he if he was going. to give him the full amount that they. asked for it was okay if he was going to. give them part of the amount he'd write. okay 500 would or but sometimes he'd. write no and sometimes he'd write no out.

so I said to Connelly what did no out. mean and I still remember he said it. meant he was never getting any money. from Lyndon Johnson lynon never forgave. and he never forgot then you say where. did he get this money okay so I said I'm. going through the rest of this file and. all of a sudden many. documents oh excuse me I exaggerate it's. on another file also labeled General. unarranged but in the same.

box there's a telegram from George Brown. of brown and root the huge Texas. contractors who were funding Lyon. Johnson and giving him the money for. this Con and it said. lynon the checks should have been. received yesterday and on the bottom. Lyndon Johnson writes I am not. acknowledging any of these men so tell.

them verbally thank you and there's a. list of the men who gave each. $5,000 and Johnson when he's this is. still it's either in his first term as. Congressman or second I I have to think. for a second he say he's never going to. get power he says it's too slow in in. Congress seniority counts and he's the. most Junior congressman. but he thinks if a lot of money down in.

Texas they want things from the federal. government they want the oil depletion. allowance they want contracts to build. roads I said if I can get he basically. says if I can get them to give the money. through me and through nobody else then. I will have power so I need two things I. need the money which he got from Brown. and Ruth and I need the congressman to. know they want the Texas money they're.

going to have to come to me and in one. instant Lyndon Johnson Junior as he is. is a force in. Washington you tell those stories so. well in your books and you elicited that. information so well because the way you. write and the way that you interview. people and I want to end this interview. by asking a question that has almost. nothing to do with your books you once. said two you took less from two of. Fiction's greatest interviewers George.

Simon's inspector mcgrey and John L's. George Smiley yes um and you talk about. how inspector mcgrey uh I think he sits. there George Smiley wipes his glasses. and waits for someone to spill their. guts I want to know as we close this out. what you have and continue to read for. pleasure what are you reading when. you're not spending uh 8 hours uh. waiting for your eyes to fall out while. you're looking through file folders. I the two that you mentioned I read John.

lare I love him and I love Simon's M gry. I found in later life but I must say I. found it through AER also Anthony trop. the 19 century British novelist I. majored in English literature at. Princeton we didn't read one book of. trollops AA was doing research for me in. the Truman library and someone had she. staying in a boarding house out there.

with kind of place where people left. their books and she said one night I'm. reading the greatest political novel I. ever read it's the Prime Minister by. Anthony trop I didn't believe that but. when she came back I started reading it. I said it is a great so I now read 23. Trav books Lord Robert Carol 50th. anniversary of the power broker it. continues to sit. in works of non-fiction works of history.

and I'd argue works of literature as one. of the greats of the past half century. it has been uh a delight to have you on. the book review podcast thank you for. joining us thank. you that was my conversation with Robert. Caro about his magnificent book The. Power broker which is celebrating its. 50th Anniversary this fall I'm Gilbert. Cruz editor of the New York Times book. review thanks for listening.