Bernie Sanders Says Democrats Have Lost Their Way

from New York Times I'm Michael Bavaro. this is the. [Music]. daily. today as the Democratic party sifts. through the rubble of its sweeping. electoral loss and tries to chart a path. back to Power few people have as cleare. eyed a diagnosis as Senator Bernie. Sanders of Vermont which is why I gave.

him a. [Music]. [Music]. call it's Friday November. [Music]. 15th hello Senator Sanders yes Michael. Barbaro hey Michael how are you very. well I reached Senator Sanders in his.

office on Capitol Hill on Thursday. morning you may not remember this but. the last time you and I spoke was back. in 2020 we were in the same room and we. were working on a profile of you focused. on your earliest days in public office. as mayor of Burlington oh it's not as. Vivid a memory for you. apparently as it is for me was it a good. story I thought it was a good story we. had our moments you and I in that. interview and.

we don't need to reconstruct the whole. thing but there was a there was a. pointed moment where you were frustrated. with something I asked you almost got up. and left but then you decided to stay. all right let's do better this. time moving on um I just want to begin. Senator by asking for your reaction to. the news of the past 24 hours that. Republicans have taken control of the. house because what that means is that.

Republicans now control both Chambers. and the White House you are about to be. in the. minority As president-elect Trump brings. a very aggressive agenda to Congress an. agenda frankly that Democrats have. called among other things a threat to. democracy so how are you processing that. well obviously our job is to Rally the. American people to make it clear. especially to working people that we. need an economy and a government that. works for all to expose as best we can.

what Trump and his. administration are doing but it's not. just an inside the Beltway game it's a. question of rallying the American people. uh to fight back effectively so you're. in a fighting mood oh absolutely I think. right now uh is this is a pivotal moment. in American. history and the next year or two will. determine what happens in this country. for decades in my view fighting mood or. not are there any areas where you are. are prepared to work with the.

president-elect absolutely and and what. might those be if Trump for example. follows through on his proposal to limit. interest rates on credit cards to 10%. which is what he campaigned on uh. absolutely I will be there I think. that's a very good idea I think it's. time we told the people on Wall Street. they cannot charge uh desperate. workingclass people who can't have a. hard time paying their bills 25 30 40%. interest rates that's urious.

uh that's immoral and if Trump wants to. impose a credit card limit on interest. rates I'll be there so where your vision. of championing the working class. overlaps with his you may back his. agenda if he comes up with reasonable. ideas yes I would be uh interested in. working with him let's turn to what I. think is going to be the heart of this. conversation Senator Sanders which is. the effort underway across the. Democratic Party and you're a big part.

of it of Reckoning with the meaning of. the outcome of this election and. understanding not just why kamla Harris. didn't win but why Donald Trump in. Victory expanded his electoral reach. into communities of color into America's. youth into blue State America including. your own home state of Vermont where. when you look at the New York Times. graphic you see those red arrows. suggesting his support deepened since he.

last ran Donald Trump has created the. most racially and politically diverse. Coalition of any Republican in a. generation and you have participated as. I said in the postmortem underway across. the Democratic party and I just want to. read something you have said that a lot. of people when they read it found very. bracing this is what you said quote it. should come as no great surprise that a. Democratic party which has abandoned. Working Class People would find that. working class people have abandoned them.

and you went on to say first this. abandonment was among white workingclass. Americans now it is Latino and black. workers as well while the Democratic. Leadership defends the status quo the. American people are angry and they want. change and they're right I want you to. just explain what you mean and be very. specific if you. can when you say that the Democratic. party has abandoned the working class. when and how did the Democratic party.

abandon the working class well it's. something that's been going on for. decades including. disastrous trade policies pushed by uh. Bill Clinton you're talking about NAFTA. yeah that's right the reality is the. American people well many of them are. angry and they have every reason to be. angry today in America and sometimes you. know some of the elite does not. understand this today in America America.

60% of our people are living paycheck to. paycheck I grew up in a family that live. paycheck to paycheck I understand the. stress involved in that it means that if. your car breaks down you don't know how. you get to work if you get sick you. don't know whether or not you can afford. to go to a doctor if your landlord. raises rent by 20% you don't know where. you're going to live where your kid is. going to go to school that's the reality. facing 60% of the American people me. meanwhile the very wealthiest people in.

this country have never ever had it so. good that's a reality so what happened. in this campaign is Donald Trump said to. the American people you're angry you're. really pissed off and I know that and. you're right and then he gave his. explanation and his explanation which. was obviously nonsense and false and. racist Etc was that millions and. millions of undocumented people were. coming across the border they were. invading America or occupied country.

they were taking your jobs taking your. benefits eating your cats and your dogs. that is why you are hurting now that is. a crazy explanation but it is an. explanation now you tell me what the. Democratic explanation was well please. please please explore that map this. critique onto the Democratic campaign. and its shortcomings well the Democratic. explanation was hey we have passed some. good things very important things in the. Biden Administration which happens to be. true Biden kept his word he was the most.

Progressive president on domestic issues. since FDL we did a lot of good things. but instead of saying yeah we are. rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. we're lowering the cost of prescription. drugs we are Transforming Our Energy. System we forgave student debt for 5. million people making some progress but. we have a long long way to go wait can I. just pause you because I I think I'm I'm. not certain I'm understanding something.

where did the campaign of comma Harris. go wrong if it was working with what. you're describing as the building blocks. of a. successful policy agenda and I know that. you have said many. many it's not just KLA Harris it's the. democ in other words let me read you. something if I might please what I think. is one of the most interesting speeches. ever given Franklin delanor Roosevelt. inaugural a speech in 1936 middle of the. depression.

so he starts his speech he says look. these are the things we did these are. the obstacles that we had to overcome. and then he says after being president. for four years he says that I quote I. see millions of families trying to live. on income so meager that the poll of. family disaster hangs over them day by. day I see millions of night education. Recreation and the opportunity to better. their lot and the lot of their children. I see one-third of a Nation ill housed. ill-clad ill-nourished end quote in. other words what Roosevelt did he said.

look we're making progress but I look. out all over this country and I see tens. of millions of people who are hurting. instead of doing that the Democrats said. well we passed the inflation adjustment. act and economy is pretty good and. Donald Trump's a bad guy and we all. defend the women's constitutional right. to an abortion there was no appreciation. no appreciation of the struggling and. the suffering of millions and millions. of workingclass people and unless you. recognize that reality.

and have a vision of how you get out of. that I think you're not going to be. going very far as a political party. you're saying that the party in this. last election didn't communicate that. they understood Americans pain as a. result they came off as defending the. status quo and I mean I don't think it's. a stretch to suggest that KLA Harris was. asked repeatedly what she would do. differently in this campaign and pretty. much said she didn't think anything. needed to be done differently and she. didn't campaign on disruption or large.

scale change you seem to be suggesting. that's at the heart of Trump's Victory. the point that I am making is that. Ordinary People are not stupid they see. what's going on in their own eyes and if. you're not even talking about the. reality of what is going on the reality. of their lives they're going say hey no. change is going to come why would I want. to vote for a group of people who don't. even acknowledge the reality for example. you tell me you follow these things I do. we have today more income and wealth.

inequality than we've ever had in the. history of this country did you hear a. lot of discussion on that no we are the. only major country on Earth not to. guarantee Healthcare to all people is a. human right and the only major country. not to provide Paid Family and Medical. Leave um do you hear how much discussion. of that not in this campaign not in this. campaign you got 20 million people in. America today who are trying to get by. on less than $15 an hour did you hear. any serious discussion of the need to. raise the minimum wage to a living wage.

I don't think we did oh missed that one. too why do you think Senator Sanders. that Democrats didn't communicate an. understanding of his pain I mean one of. the ongoing critiques of the democratic. party that emerged since this election. is that it is a party of Elites captive. to college educated Coastal America and. that it's not understanding and. communicating this pain cuz it's not. living that pain well that's only half. of it it is it's not beholden to college.

educated people that's the wrong word. okay it is beholden to the donors who. put hundreds and hundreds of millions of. dollars into it and to the bloody. Consultants out there who will end up. this campaign making zillions of dollars. doing their 302 tv ads rather than. figuring out how we talk reality to. Ordinary People and get them involved in. the political process Senator I want to. talk about what Democrats did talk about. in this last campaign cuz I I think it. may get to to a second element of your.

critique aside from big money and aside. from the question of whether Democrats. failed to communicate an understanding. of working-class American pain and in. your second critique of Democrats In. This Moment was around identity and I. want to read what you said about. identity politics and and just to Define. this phrase identity politics I think. what you mean is a focus on racial. identity sexual identity among others. this is what you said you said it's not.

just K Harris it's a Democratic party. which increasingly has become a party of. identity politics rather than. understanding that the vast majority of. people in this country are working class. this trend of workers leaving the. Democratic party and you return to this. theme started with whites and it has. accelerated to Latinos and blacks when I. hear you say that I hear you saying and. I want to make sure I'm I'm interpreting. it correctly that the Democratic party. including over the past year or so in. this campaign has turned off many.

working-class Americans who feel that. the way the Democratic party especially. its leaders talk about things like race. and gender and trans people leaves them. feeling alienated from that conversation. being policed and even scolded by it for. not using the right words for not. accepting something like trans youth on. sports. teams is that what you mean but I think. the more important point is being. ignored their needs are being ignored. look and let me be very clear where the.

Democratic party deserves a lot of. credit over the last many decades is in. fact leading the effort for women's. rights and we have come a long way until. roie Wade as a matter of fact and the. Democratic party deserves a lot of. credit for fighting for civil rights for. fighting for gay rights to fighting to. end bigotry all forms of bigotry in this. country Democrats were right on that. struggle but you go forward in both.

directions you can say we are going to. fight for a bigotry free America that's. an ongoing struggle we made progress got. a long way to go but at the same time we. can stand up for the working class of. this country which by the way happens to. be significantly. African-American and Latino and women. who are the bulk of the working class in. this country so it's not either or it's. going forward in both directions that is. a winner some of the Democrats pundits.

say well you know the problem is all of. these Trump people are racists and. they're sexist and they're homophobes. well no doubt that some of them are and. that's true most of them are not and I. suspect many of them actually voted for. the first black president in American. history Barack Obama all right but they. are in large numbers Working Class. People and we've got to speak to them in. an economic perspective that is clear. and straightforward I I guess I'm a a. touch confused by the answer you just.

gave because your quote about identity. politics seemed to suggest that the. Democratic party's focus on identity is. in some opposition to its ability to. appeal to workingclass voters who may. feel turned off about that but then in. your answer I I I felt a little bit of a. retreat from that understanding I just. want to it's not a retreat it's not a. retreat you can say look isn't it great. that we have in fact a very and. effective black woman who's on the.

Supreme Court great but you don't hang. your hat on that and say hey wellow what. you also want to do is talk about the. reality of what's going on in the. African-American Community all over this. country so it's a matter of. communicating that perhaps the. Democratic core values are things like. diversity but not to the exclusion of. these Central questions of economics. it's not either or it is both and you.

have to decide what does what is the. vision of the democratic party who's the. Democratic party taking on you tell me. Michael in this campaign Donald Trump. was taking on I mean every day there was. another enemy out there but by and large. the basic problem was millions of. illegal immigrants coming in who were. eating our cats and dogs and they were. the enemy going to solve that problem. everything would be great who was the. Democratic party taking on in that. campaign I mean what was their. explanation what were they going to do.

to address the fact that so many people. in America are struggling that it have. anything to do with the greed of. corporate America the fact that you have. a billionaire class today that wants it. all they want to own the political. system does anyone really talk about the. degree to which the people on top own. this country and want more and more and. could give a damn about ordinary. Americans now that is what I believe. unlike Trump that's what I believe the. cause of our problems are I believe that. we can create a nation in which all.

people have healthare all kids have good. quality child care we have a strong. public education system I believe we can. do that but we're not going to do it. unless we are able to take on the big. money interests who want to use this. economy to make themselves even richer. than they are right now that is the. defining issue to go back just a second. you seem very clear on the idea that the. Democratic party can be a party that. Embraces diversity a core value and even.

elements of what you described as. identity politics but I just wonder if. you can grapple with the reality that. Donald Trump's message in opposition to. things like diversity equity and. inclusion holding it up as a boogeyman. and suggesting that it is unfair and. that Democrats want to bring that. unfairness and make it more and more. Central to the country's identity seem. to resonate in this election well it. resonates within the context of. Democrats not recognizing the pain that.

Ordinary People are feeling and taking. on the people who caused that pain and. routing people around an agenda that. works for them you know you can't fight. something with nothing you got to have. an alternative Vision Trump had his. vision it was incorrect it was dishonest. it was in many cases racist and sexist. he had a vision he had an. explanation to my view Democrats really. did.

[Music]. not we'll be right back. [Music].

I want to press a little bit further. into this question of Democratic. Leadership being out of touch with the. working class and not meeting voters. where they are you've started to clearly. articulate this when you criticized the. Democrats for not appreciating and. communicating the pain of America's. working class but another element of. this emerging Democratic critique since.

election day is that Democrats have. drawn what some are saying as. unnecessary lines in the sand about. where they go to have this conversation. in the first place when you were a. candidate for president you had no. problem going on shows like Joe Rogan's. he ended up backing you for president in. 2016 and in this campaign Joe Rogan. invited all the candidates on his show. uh Donald Trump said yes JD Vance said. yes tens of millions of people saw vice.

president Harris declined that. invitation to go on the show we suspect. in part because they worried about. blowback from Democrats who don't like. Rogan they think he's insensitive he's. not one of them and since then we found. out some voters viewed that Rogan. interview with Trump as kind of decisive. in their decision to vote for Trump are. Democrats writing off too many places. and too many mediums in this moment and. making a stake in their ability to reach.

workingclass voters where they. are well funny you ask that Michael I am. thinking back to when I ran for. president in. 2020 and I did an interview with the New. York Times you work for the New York. Times right I do and we did an interview. with the editorial board of the New York. Times of which I think they gave each. member 20 members or so I don't remember. two votes a piece right I was either. ahead or in second place in the polls at.

that time and of the 40 votes that were. cast I got one of the votes that was. what the New York Times thought of my. campaign and yet here I am on your show. as employee of the New York Times am I. afraid of being on your show I am not am. I afraid of being on J Rogan show no. bottom line is what every communications. director knows is that there is a new. world of media out there and it's not. just NBC CBS or the New York Times it is. podcast it is Jo Rogan it is Fox News it.

is young people who nobody in the. Democratic Leadership has ever heard of. who have YouTube programs that attract. millions of people that is the reality. can you ignore that that is insane. anyone who thinks you could ignore that. reality is crazy and my experience not. that I've been on millions of these. shows the people that I talk to treat me. with respect and I think you cannot be. you know oh Joe Rogan said this or he. says that yeah so what you know my wife. disagrees be on this or that issue so. what you can't run away from somebody.

because they may have said something. stupid or something that you disagree. with that's life H but most importantly. when you go on the show what do you say. so Joe Rog ask you what do you think. about the fact that we have more income. and wealth inequality than ever before. oh well I can't answer that question. what do you think about the fact that. we're the only major country not to. guarantee Healthcare well she I'd like. to not talk about that what I don't want. to offend the insurance companies why. are we paying the highest prices in the. world for for scripture drugs I can't. talk about that cuz you know I get money.

from the farmer that's the problem so. yeah you got to go on different Outlets. of course you do but most importantly. you got to know what you. believe and what you're prepared to. fight for and what your vision for the. future of this country is do you think. that the Democratic party is really. prepared to go where it needs to go in. taking the lessons that you're laying. out here and really moving ahead with. them I don't know if you know that uh. former speaker Nancy Pelosi came on a. podcast by our colleague Lulu Garcia.

Naro and was presented with your. critique word for word of a Democratic. party and if I can put it politely she. dismissed it and said well I completely. disagree with what he's saying by the. way K Harris did better than you know. Senator Sanders in Vermont on Election. Day she pointed out you've lost your. races for president and Democratic. primaries well I tell you I got 63% of. the vote and I didn't spend one Niel on. advertising in Vermont how's that look I.

I respect Nancy and we've known each. other for years and we've worked. together on some issues like the. American Rescue plan which I thought was. very consequential piece of legislation. but you know Nancy and I have different. Visions as to the future I think Nancy's. views May reverberate here inside the. Beltway I'm sure a lot of the pundits. and the consultants and politicians. agree with Nancy I suspect if you go out. into the hint lands you'll find that. most people agree with me Senator.

looking forward to not just the idea. that the party will take what you're. saying and perhaps run with it but that. it needs to be embodied in a candidate. who can win when you close your eyes and. think of who can lead the party out of. this very decisive and for many. Democrats devastating. loss what do you see not necessarily who. do you see I maybe there is a who in. your mind but what is that future. candidate look it's a.

candidate you know preferably but not. necessarily somebody from the working. class H who can speak to Working Class. People who will fight to end all forms. of bigotry in this country but is mostly. prepared to take on the big money. interests who today have an. unprecedented level of Economic and. political power with the Advent of all. the new technology is out there Michael.

in terms of artificial intelligence in. terms of Robotics Etc we truthfully have. the capability now of creating a society. where all of our people have a decent. standard of living yeah we can actually. wipe out poverty we don't need to have. people sleeping out on the streets the. question is who will control the. utilization of that technology and who. will benefit from it so we need to have. somebody who primarily is prepared to. stand up to the ruling class of America.

and say you know what we like your. entrepreneurial. capabilities but you got to control your. greed you can no longer have it all. you're going to be an important part of. the future but you're not going to own. and control the future we need somebody. like that do you think that if Democrats. do meet voters where they are and. connect with the pain and they pitch the. kind of progressive policies that you're. advoc for here especially on economics.

that is the winning combination or has. trust in the Democratic party for a lot. of the reasons we've been talking about. here been strained if not broken in a. way that means that even getting it. right here is not really possible that's. a very good question because there's. been a huge loss of faith in government. yeah that's right that's that's right. you're right on that and I I will tell. you that even within the confines of the. democratic caucus and I don't you know. talk about things behind closed doors. but you'll have Democrats US senators.

standing up and saying you know what. they hate us out there us the government. or the party well they hate the party. and they understand and you know you're. on to another issue which we don't have. time to get into right now even when. government does the right thing you got. a. bureaucracy which is so slow in. implementation of policy that people. don't see it when they should be sing. but that's a whole other issue it's. another issue and perhaps another. conversation but if people don't have. faith in government how do your. Solutions which do require a tremendous.

role for our government how do you sell. them well that's that's it that's again. a good question and I think here's where. we're at the Elon musks of the world. will say look government can't do. anything it's going to be the private. sector cut it cut it cut it is his. message right right and and you know. look Elon Musk is a very very aggressive. and capable business person very. impressive of what he's accomplished and. he says I can do more in a week than the. government can do in you know five years. and some ways he is right the problem is.

at the end of his efforts he ends up. making zillions of dollars and. workingclass people are not any better. off all right the alternative is to say. oh let the government do it right now. but you got a government that is. inefficient and bureaucratic right so. people are looking and say all right we. got the greed of the ruling class they. do things pretty well but they end up. with all the money and the working class. ends up with the lowest standard of. living than they used to have or you got. a government which is very slow in doing. anything so that that is it seems to me.

where we are as a nation we got to do. better than that what's the answer the. answer is to bring young people into. government who believe in a mission to. improve the lives of people whether you. work in the post office whether you work. in the Veterans Administration whether. you work in Social Security pay these. people well give them good management. let them be proud of the important work. that they are do no more important work. in in this country than being a public. school teacher all right yet we underpay.

those teachers we put them under. terrible working conditions Choice has. got to be to modernize government make. government work for Ordinary People. health care for all is a human right if. other countries around the world can. have National Healthcare programs so can. the United States of America we're not. DB with under the people I have a final. question for you yeah when Trump won. last time many Democrats organized. themselves into what was Loosely. described sometimes by them as the. resistance that resistance many.

Democrats now think ended up pushing the. party further and further to the left. leading to things like a primary in 2020. in which people like KLA Harris made. commitments to leftwing causes that came. back to Haunter and made it possible. well now you're on to another Michael no. I'm just dead this is my final question. do you worry that the party could be. heading down that path again of you. haven't heard a word that I've. said and that's impressive you know. it's the things that kamla was talking.

about the things that what I was talk. every one of those issues is enormously. popular is that what you're talking. about no no no I mean on social issues. oh I don't know you know social issues. you know she I don't know yes set. setting comma aside I think what you're. about to tell me is Michael many of the. economic issues on the left are very. popular with many Americans as economic. policy yeah we oppold them all in. Missouri you may have followed in this. election Missouri a conservative State.

58% of the people voted to raise the. minimum wage oh by the way we haven't. been able to do that here in a. democratically control when those. policies were in isolation on the ballot. separate from a Democratic party and. candidate carrying all the baggage that. we're talking about here well the point. is if Democrats were focusing on those. issues and saying gee how come that one. Republican wants to raise the minimum. wage to at least 15 bucks an hour how. come one Republican doesn't believe that. Healthcare is a human right how come one.

Republican doesn't want to expand Social. Security so that the elderly people can. live their lives with dignity you put. them on the defensive but when you don't. offer anything you are on the defensive. right I mean it's worth saying that many. of those Missouri voters voted for those. Progressive economic policies as ballot. measures and then turned around and. voted for Trump which means it's deeper. than. policy well maybe next time we'll go. into that no it's not deeper than policy. Senator I know you have to go I don't. know if you've been thinking about this.

but um you're. 83 and thanks Michael I I did know that. see this is a percep of New York Times. investigative reporter I here we go but. running for president depending on the. moment in the candidate can be a very. age defiant question and you still sound. like a candidate for president to me I. mean is it totally out of the question. yeah yes I don't think the American. people want a president who's 104 years. of age so you know um you'd be 87 all. right well now the answer is I would say.

it's you know I'm very proud that the. people of Vermont in very large numbers. uh reelected me for a fourth term I'm. very proud of that and uh that's where. we are all right Senator thank you for. your time thank you bye-bye. [Music]. we'll be right.

back here's what else you need to know. today president-elect Trump said he. would nominate Robert F Kennedy Jor to. lead the health and human services. department giving a vocal skeptic of. vacc sces responsibility for the. nation's vast system of public health if.

Kennedy is confirmed his resistance to. Public Health measures and his Embrace. of alternative medicine could lead to. Fierce clashes with the agencies that he. would. oversee and on Thursday the governor of. New York dramatically revived a first in. the nation plan to fund mass transit by. tolling cars in Manhattan's busiest. neighborhoods and I'm proud to announce.

we have found a path to fund the. MTA reduce. congestion and keep millions of dollars. in the pockets of our. commuters Governor Kathy hokel said that. the program known as congestion pricing. would begin in January with a total of. $9 per car down from the original price. tag of $15 per car hok had cancelled the. plan over the summer because she argued.

that original toll was too. high remember you can catch a new. episode of the interview right here. tomorrow this week David maresi talks. with Dr Ellen Weed a longtime advocate. for and practitioner of medical. assistance in dying sometimes I. struggle when I see a young beautiful. person choosing to leave earlier than.

they needed to but I believe so strongly. in basic human rights if that person. says that they can't live in with this. condition I will honor their. wishes today's episode was produced by. Jessica Chong Michael Simon Johnson and. Nina Feldman it was edited by paig cowt.

Lisa chow and Patricia willins with help. from Michael benoa contains original. music by Maran Lozano and Pat mccusker. and was engineered by Chris Wood our. theme music is by Jim runberg and Ben. lansberg of wonderl special thanks to. Lexi di Lisa Lair Reed Epstein and Shane. goldm. [Music].

that's it for the daily I'm Michael Boro. see you on Monday. [Music].