Arizona’s Food Stamp Crisis Is Coming for the Rest of the U.S.

Hi, my name's Anna. I'm with the New. York Times. We're talking to people. about SNAP and what it's like in Arizona. right now. Can I ask you a couple. questions in the shade? >> Yeah. >> Okay. It's hot out today. >> I'm Jason DeParle. I'm a. reporter for the New York Times. I cover. poverty issues and. I'm here with my colleagues Olivia Nat. and Anna Flaherty. We're outside a. food stamp or SNAP office in Phoenix, Arizona. I just took a look inside the.

office. There are people sitting on the. floors. There are people in wheelchairs. There are people on crutches. There are. people wearing worn-out looks of long. waits that aren't yet over. >> [music]. >> How many times do you think you've been. to this office? >> Oh my goodness. [music]. And this month and this year? >> This is going to be like my fifth time. >> Your fifth time trying to get SNAP? >> Coming to these places, it's just like work itself.

>> From The New York Times, I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. This is The Daily. >> [music]. >> The United States is undergoing one of. the biggest [music] changes to its. social safety net in recent history with. huge numbers of people dropping out of. the government's food assistance [music]. program. Nowhere has it been more dramatic than. [music] in Arizona. >> For some reason or another, my food. stamps. >> [music]. >> application keeps getting lost, you.

know, quote unquote lost. >> I I I don't have any income. I don't know no food. I'll be homeless in a couple months. >> [music]. >> How many meals are you eating a day. right now? >> One. >> [music]. >> One. >> Today, my colleague Jason DeParle. explains why so many people there are. suddenly losing access to this [music]. key benefit. And the implications all this could have. for the rest of the country.

It's Wednesday, [music] August 5th. >> [music]. >> Jason, we want to talk to you today. about these drastic changes that have. been made to the food stamp program. known as SNAP. When Trump's big. beautiful bill passed about a year ago, we understood that Republicans were. planning to pay for it by making cuts to. the government's welfare programs. You.

have been following that story all the. way to Arizona. So, just walk me through. why you went there. >> Arizona is the place in the country. that's had the largest reduction in food. stamps since the passage of the big. beautiful bill. The rolls there have fallen in half. >> Hmm. >> 450,000 people have lost nutrition aid. there. >> That's just a huge number. >> Yes, includes more than 100,000 children. as well. >> And why is that? Why is the drop-off. been so steep?

>> The law imposed dramatic changes in the. SNAP program, but mostly deferred those. changes until after the midterm. elections. Arizona was the state that moved most. aggressively to make changes. >> And Jason, just remind us what those. changes actually were and the argument. that Republicans made for why they. needed to implement them. >> Republicans saw SNAP as a bloated. program. It had more than doubled in. size since 2000. About one in eight. Americans get SNAP and its annual cost.

had exceeded 100 billion dollars. They thought it needed reining in. They thought it served as a work. disincentive. They thought that offering. people nutrition aid persuaded some not. to work or not to work as much as they. could. They were concerned that some people. committed fraud to get on it, but those. were all long-standing concerns. What. really drove the changes last year in. Congress was the need for money to. finance President Trump's tax cuts, which I think it's worth remembering.

largely went to the wealthy. The reason they did what they did when. they did it was because they wanted. money for President Trump's tax cuts. >> And how do they go about shrinking the. program? What do they actually do? >> The thing that's gotten the most. attention and it's probably the easiest. to understand. is that they expanded work requirements. More people have to work in order to. qualify for benefits. It used to be the. people 55 and older were exempt, and now. they've expanded that up to age 65. So,

you've got people in their late 50s and. early 60s who for the first time face. work requirements in order to get SNAP. benefits. >> Got it. >> But that's not really the main factor in. what's driving the case load declines in. Arizona. The thing that's really driving this is. a change in how SNAP is funded. Historically, the federal government had. paid all the benefits. States paid part. of the administrative costs of running a. SNAP program, but all the food stamp. money came from the federal government.

But now, this new law says that if a. state makes too many mistakes, and we're. mostly talking small administrative. errors, they'll have to pay up to 15% of. the benefits. And in some states, that. could cost more than a billion dollars a. year. >> Basically, what the federal government. is doing, if I understand this. correctly, is telling the states that if. they mess up their payments, they're. going to end up shouldering part of the. cost of this program, and it could be a. lot of money. >> [music]. >> Yes, they're basically saying, "If you. can't keep what's known as your error.

rate down, you'll lose access to a bunch of federal. money.". So much money that some states may not. be able to keep running the program at. all. I I think that's worth stopping to. consider for a moment. I mean, can. >> [music]. >> can you imagine a state without a food. stamp program? So, in order to avoid a $300 penalty and. potentially losing the program. altogether, Arizona officials made dramatic changes. to the program. and the rolls instantly began falling. They fell much farther and much faster.

[music] than Arizona officials imagined. >> [music]. >> And what we found in our reporting was. that these are people who by and large. remain eligible for aid, but simply. can't get it because they're stuck in. webs of red tape. >> Hey, I thought you were on the phone. earlier. My name's Olivia. I'm here with. the New York Times. I'm talking to. people about whether or not they're. receiving their SNAP benefits. >> Oh, girl. No.

I did everything. Still no help. >> One of the people caught in that red. tape is a woman my colleague Olivia Natt. and I met outside a food stamp office in. Phoenix. Her name is Alejandra Casillas. >> I've been applying since. December. Right? I did that. In January, they had me waiting until. February. I can't be calling them all. the time cuz I have a. job and kids to take care of. But yeah, I called them at least five times in the. morning. >> She's 28 years old. She's a mother of.

two and she's working, but she doesn't make enough to feed her. family. >> Mhm. >> She gave us a version of a story we had. heard in other places of notices that. were impossible to comply with. >> Mailing date, you see that? March 30, 20 26. And it says right here. that I have to do the interview by. February 28, 2026. >> So, a month after they said this is the. deadline, that's when you got the piece.

of paper. >> I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Do I. look like I can create a time machine. and go back in time? It's like. >> Why was it so hard for her to get her. benefits, Jason? Did she explain that? >> Once you apply for SNAP benefits, you. have to have an interview with a special. case worker, and it has to happen within. 2 weeks of the application. >> But you call in those 2 weeks and. >> And nobody answers. >> Nobody answers. And tomorrow is the last day that I have. to complete my interview. And then they.

close the cases, too. >> She couldn't get through on the phone to. have the interview. So, she left her. home, came in to the SNAP office on her. day off, and they told her, "You can't. do the interview here. You have to. call.". >> I can even call them right now, too, and. they will they will drop it. >> Can we try? >> Yeah. >> Welcome to the Department of Economic. Security, Family Assistance. Administration. To continue in English, press one. >> We listened to her make the call. >> Our records show you need to complete an.

interview. Due to extremely high call volumes, we. are not able to accept your call. We. apologize for the inconvenience. >> That's how it is all the time that we. call. >> That call, like others, went nowhere. They told her she'd just have to wait. for a call back. So, now here she is in limbo, unable to get access to food stamps. But. what really struck me about her was just. how angry and defeated she seemed. She. told she'd been going to food banks,

that she'd stopped breastfeeding her. child because she feared she lacked. nutrients. >> Oh, no. I've been thinking about going into a. grocery store, just put a whole bunch of. food and run out. >> And then she said something like really. remarkable. She said she'd been having. fantasies about stealing food. >> Hmm. Like I will sign up for Instacart as a. driver and keep the groceries for my. kids. I'm at that point.

>> You know, she wasn't apologetic, she. wasn't defiant, she wasn't justifying. it, she was just saying. >> Then I do think it through. I'm like, they're pushing me to that point, but my. kids need me. So, I can't be breaking no laws. So, I'm like stuck, you know? >> Here it is. This is This is the way I'm. living right now. >> She was really desperate, obviously. >> Yes. And part of what was remarkable.

about Alejandra's story is that there. there was nothing remarkable about it. We heard echoes of that with almost. everybody we talked to. I mean, if one. or two people um tells you a story like. that, you can always think, well, maybe. it's an extraordinary circumstance, but. it was the norm, not the exception in. Arizona. >> I have to say, Jason, hearing that. [snorts] and hearing how common it. sounds like Alejandra's experience is, it sounds like the system completely. broke down, in a sense. How did that happen?

>> It did completely broke down. It was a. perfect storm. Uh but a lot of it can be. traced back to the decision Arizona made. to change the paperwork requirements. It used to be that applicants could just. walk in the office and tell a case. worker how many people lived in the. household and who they were. Now, applicants had to go to neighbors. or friends and get a written declaration. of who lived in the household. And if. the neighbor or friend failed to sign. the letter or failed to put their phone. number on the letter, you'd have to. start all over again.

It used to be if you had panhandling. income, you gave the office your best. guess of how much you made. Now, they. asked applicants with panhandling income. to go back and get written documentation. of the money people had dropped in the. jars. >> What? >> They knew that there was no way that. people could go get that. They said that. to us. When we talked to them, they. rolled their eyes and said, yes, this is. absurd, but this is what we have to do. And in the end, if they can't get the. written documentation, we'll take their.

word for it, but we have to make them go out and try. And of course, if you make people go out. and try, a lot of them just don't come. back. And another thing that made things. worse is that Arizona just happened to. make a deep cuts in case workers at the. same time the federal government was. passing this bill. So, it lost a third of its case workers. at the very time it was asking people to. submit more paperwork. >> Meaning, there were way fewer people. working in these offices processing. these claims. The staff was just. reduced. >> More paperwork, fewer people to look at.

it. Yes. >> Right. And so, it's that combination of. factors in Arizona that then leads to. half a million people suddenly losing. their benefits. >> Yes, and boy did it affect them in. profound ways. People were skipping meals. People were. having household quarrels over food. They were selling blood plasma to get. money to buy food. They were falling. behind on the rent. And remember, these. are people who by and large [music].

remain eligible for SNAP. That was definitely the case with a. woman [music] we met named D. McDonald. >> [music]. >> We'll be right back.

>> Sorry. >> Good morning. >> Good morning. I just got out of the. shower. >> I'm sorry. >> a 65-year-old grandmother in Mesa, Arizona. Can't be more than 5 ft tall. She was. wearing a a knit beret. >> And that was Tobias. He's going to work. >> Hi, Tobias. >> Everybody come in. >> Uh, thank you. >> That was your grandson? >> One of them. >> I can't swear that she hugged me when I. walked in, but it felt like she did. I. think she did. >> Well, make yourself at home. Just I made.

this for you guys. >> Oh my god. Oh wow. >> Wow. What a spread. >> What did you make? >> Tell us what it is. >> They're biscuits. They're just a. biscuits. And. >> more than biscuits. >> We were there to talk to her about food. stamps and food insecurity and she'd. spent the previous day baking biscuits. and assembling a fruit platter for us. >> These are. churro donuts. >> I've never had a churro donut. [laughter]. They were fantastic. >> I found them at a very good price. And then I.

quickly fried them and dunked them in. cinnamon sugar. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> So yeah. And then all of this fruits I. found for. a dollar each yesterday. And I was like. I can't pass that up. So anyway. >> The last thing I wanted to do was to. impose on her like that. But that's an. expression of who she is. She's a very. warm, welcoming grandmotherly woman. >> And what's D's story? What did she tell. you about her experience with SNAP? >> So we sat around her table and she told. us about her life. It'd been a pretty. exciting life at one point.

>> I was a roadie locally. I was unloading trucks, pulling cables, hanging lights, doing all kind of stuff. like that. And I started my first job. was Boyz II Men. for wardrobe. That's how long ago. >> She was a kind of roadie. She was a a. wardrobe technician for traveling rock. bands. >> The quick changes you see, that's what we do. Uh I toured with Jimmy Buffett, Britney Spears, was asked to tour with Marilyn Manson,

asked to tour with Slipknot. >> She went on tour with Britney Spears and. Jimmy Buffett. >> Awesome. >> The dream of a lifetime. >> And I was really doing well. I worked. really really hard to get where I where. I got to. >> But when she was in her early 40s, her. son. fell into some trouble. >> And um. that's when my my new my career was. over. >> And she wound up taking care of five. grandsons. >> But I had to make a choice. I didn't.

want them going to the state. They needed family. >> For a while after taking in the. grandkids, she worked um she had a job. at a racetrack among other things, but. eventually she needed to spend full-time. taking care of the grandkids and she. turned to SNAP for help. >> I felt like it it was um. a way to help us, but I never thought I. would be on it forever. I don't think you say forever, for this. long. >> About 15 years ago, she started. receiving SNAP and has been on it since.

>> Without SNAP, we would have starved. We. would have starved or. maybe we wouldn't have starved. We would. have not. had the the proper nutrition, for sure. >> She was receiving about $700 a month in. SNAP aid. That's about a third of her. income. The rest mostly comes from. social security. >> I can do I can make it happen on 700 a. month. With even with them. I was buying 4 gallons of milk every. other day.

4 gallons of milk. I mean, it could it's. stretching, but I learned if somebody if. I say I'm going to grocery shopping, don't expect to see me for 4 to 6 hours. That's what I'm doing. I'm going to the. discount store. um first. and then I'm going to the bread store, then I'm going to go to the fruit and. veggie store. Um I'm going to see where. the sales are and I'm going to go there. and that's what I'm going to do. >> And then last fall, all of the sudden. the benefits stopped.

>> And why? Why did they stop? What. happened? >> Last fall, Dee's benefits were up for. renewal. Once a year, people on SNAP. have to go through this. >> a Well, I got a notice that I had to. renew, which was nothing new and it was. October. of. 25. Well, what was going on in October 25? Government was shut down. They were. >> It's always been matter-of-fact for her. You submit uh your income. Her income. hadn't changed. You submit your address. Her address hadn't changed. >> And I thought, "Great. I've got to renew.

in the middle of all of this." So, I did. I did my application. like I was supposed to do. and got it turned in. Called called. >> her paperwork in October in the middle. of the government shutdown. The food. stamp program was in disarray. nationwide. She didn't get an answer and. she wasn't particularly worried at that. time. >> Everything seemed good and I thought, "Okay. It's going to come in.". And it. didn't come in. >> And then the next month, she didn't get. an answer again. >> What happened when you missed your.

second payment? How did you feel? >> Fr- angry, frustrated, um and scared. But you know, like how am. I going to f- I I've got rice and beans. with you know, we've got other things, but there's going to come a point where. we don't have butter. We don't have. milk. We don't have cheese. >> The next month she goes down to the. office itself. >> And the lady told me, "Well, you're one of many. There are people that are still waiting. from September.". And I said, "What's going on? What's.

happening?". And she said, "Well, we had. 1,200 workers and they were cut to under. nine. And so, they were backed up." And. she said, "Hang in there. They're. coming. It's going to take. >> Thanksgiving comes and goes. Christmas. comes and goes. At the start of the new. year, >> My benefits didn't come in January. They didn't and I was like, "Something's. just not okay here.". I start calling. Calling calling. calling. And I couldn't get through. >> She makes 100 calls in a single month. Still can't get through.

>> And then. in Feb- about mid-February, I finally reach a real person. The guy. says to me, "They closed your case.". >> When she finally does in February, they. tell her her case has been closed. >> I said, "What? I haven't gotten a letter. I haven't. gotten anything on messaging, you know, on the. laptop. I haven't gotten anything in the. mail. I haven't gotten anything. Why'd. they close my case? >> Why? Why is her case closed? The case worker tells her that she.

submitted the wrong form. >> That's not right. That's not possible. And I said, "Hold on. Let me pull my. stuff and look." And he said, "That's. what I'm seeing." He was very nice. He. wasn't rude. I wasn't rude to him. And I pulled my stuff and I said, "Oh my. gosh. I did pull the wrong date.". >> Do you get to a little bit of income. from the child welfare system? She. submitted an income form from 2024 when. she should have submitted an income form. from 2025. She'd never done that before, but this.

time she made a mistake. >> the wrong date. And I said, "Okay, I can. pull it right now, the right date, and I. can. get it downloaded in the computer and. get it and get it done.". And he said, "Well, [music] they closed. your case, so I can't rework it." And I. said, "Don't we aren't we supposed to have. like 30 days to fix things? [music] To. make things right if there's something. wrong?" And he said, "Yes. Before we were, that's how it worked.". He said, "Let me talk to you to my. supervisor." And he came back and they.

wouldn't he wouldn't let him open. He said his supervisor would not let him. reopen my case. >> [music]. >> to. correct that document. >> And with the new changes to SNAP, that. [music] mistake was enough to disenroll. her from the program. It's worth saying that denying eligible. people doesn't actually count as a. mistake under the new system. >> [music]. >> I was very, very angry. I was very angry. I um. >> [music]. >> didn't come out of my room for a little. bit. I was like, "Why are they doing this to.

people? >> [music]. >> Why are they hurting people? You know, I'll survive. You take You take food out. of my mouth, I'll figure it out. [music]. But I I've got children I'm raising, children that need to be growing. healthy. >> She realizes she has. two choices. [music] She can appeal. and try to get that decision overturned. If she does that, she might be able to. get all the back benefits [music] from. the months of aid she's owed, or she can. start all over again and file a new. application, in which case [music] she. wouldn't get the back benefits.

The very nice case worker she reached on. the phone [music] and tried very hard to. be helpful told her that she should. appeal, so she did. >> And how did that go? >> [music]. >> How many times do you think you've. called the appeals office? >> Mhm, at least once a day. >> Have you ever reached a person? >> No. >> She never heard anything back. It's been [music]. 5 months. She's still waiting.

Do I think members of Congress in. writing the new laws intended to take. SNAP away from 65-year-old grandmothers. because of a casual mistake? No. But the. critics said at the time that this kind. of bureaucratic gridlock was a. foreseeable element of the new rules. that they put in place. And in fact, many people warned that these new.

administrative rules would throw the. program into disarray. >> Jason, it sounds like this is how the. federal changes to SNAP actually can end. up forcing people off the program. Because now states are so incentivized. to reduce their errors. that they do so perhaps at the cost of. actually providing this benefit. >> Exactly. [snorts]. If the state had sent D her payment with. that incorrect form in its files, it. would have counted as an error. So you can see it becomes much more. risky for the state to provide benefits.

than to simply close the case. altogether. So, the net effect of all this is that. it's become much more difficult for. eligible families like these to get. access to the program, even though. they're entitled to it. >> And for the Republicans who advocated. for these changes, does a story like. Dee's give them pause, or do they see. the system working as they intended? Are. they actually encouraged maybe by the. notion that the state is taking this.

seriously and trying to take more. accountability for how it spends. taxpayer money? >> I don't think anybody's in favor of. administrative errors. It's important to. keep error rates down in order to make. the best use of public resources, to. save money, to keep public support for. the program. The question is at what. cost? >> Mhm. >> For the most part, I think Republicans. have celebrated the case load declines. without looking too closely at what's. behind them. >> [snorts]. >> The top Republican in the Arizona State.

Senate said there's massive case load. decline because there was massive fraud. Nationally, the rolls are down about 4. and 1/2 million people, or maybe 10% of. people getting SNAP off the lift the. rolls. The White House has celebrated this as. proof that President Trump's program is. working. So has the Secretary of Agriculture, Brooke Rollins. Between them, they've. argued that the rolls are falling. because they're rooting out fraud or. barring undocumented immigrants from. accessing the program. Certainly in a. program as large as SNAP, there's always.

going to be individual fraud. But I haven't seen anything that would. suggest wide-scale systemic fraud that. could explain this kind of case load. decline. Certainly, that's not what we. saw in Arizona, and I don't think. there's evidence of it in other states, either. >> You said that Arizona has been the first. to see this kind of impact because it. moved so fast to make these changes to. comply with the big beautiful bill. Are. we expecting to see this dramatic of an.

effect in other states? >> I think most people would guess that. Arizona's an extreme example, but we. don't really know. Nationwide, the rules haven't taken. place yet. If you recall, Congress. delayed the changes they made till after. the midterm elections. So, for the most. part, we haven't seen the impact of. these changes yet. But, there are. reasons to suspect that other states may. respond in similar ways to Arizona. Starting in November, the federal. government's going to cut in half the.

amount of administrative money it gives. states to run the program. That could cause states to lay off. caseworkers, just as Arizona did. Some other states have already had. caseload declines of 15 to 20%. Some states have very low error rates. and don't need to change much. Some. states have extremely high error rates. and have to make radical changes to. avoid big federal penalties. We don't know enough about how they'll. respond, how good their computer systems.

are, or how many caseworkers they have. to predict with much confidence how. these changes will affect the caseload. nationwide. But, if you look at Arizona, there's reason to be concerned. >> Jason, you've been covering poverty for. four decades. What are you thinking about this moment? About how significant it is? >> I'm thinking about what an important. program SNAP is. SNAP is the closest. thing the United States has to a.

universal income. It serves such a wide. variety of people. It serves the working. poor. It serves children. It serves the. elderly. It serves veterans. And it. provides a basic commodity, food. It was. clear from the moment the law passed. that this was landmark legislation. >> [snorts]. >> But, I don't think anybody expected the. degree of caseload decline that we've. seen in Arizona. You know, I've I've thought about a. smaller SNAP program. I've imagined a a. SNAP program with more work.

requirements. I've imagined a SNAP. program with lower benefits. I don't think I've ever imagined a. landscape in which a SNAP program simply. didn't exist. And it's just mind-boggling to think. that these penalties, these costs could. be so steep, some states might [music]. choose to end the program altogether. That's a real possibility. >> Well, Jason, [music]. thanks for being here. >> Thank you, Natalie.

>> What's life been like since. your case was closed? [music]. >> It's draining. Because I get up in the morning and I. think, "What are we going to have for. dinner? >> [music]. >> What do they have to eat? What do they. have to snack on? Do they have breakfast. foods? [music] Do they have enough. security? Do they have enough baby. tomatoes to eat? Do we have enough to. make a salad for dinner tonight? When. you [music] take a drop of $700. in your budget that you're used to that.

being the food, you then have to figure out where that. food's going to come from. >> I'm sure there's people that are [music]. taking advantage of it. I'm sure there. are. >> But I think it's inhumane. to take food from people. What are we doing here? [music].

>> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. [music]. The closely watched Democratic primary. for US Senate in Michigan remained too. close to call on Wednesday morning with. the left-wing candidate Abdul [music].

El-Sayed clinging to a narrow lead of. about 19,000 votes. That lead over his moderate opponent, [music]. Congresswoman Haley Stevens, was much. narrower than what recent polls had. shown, but it marked a milestone for the. [music] progressive wing of the. Democratic Party in a swing state. because it showed that the movement's. appeal has reached beyond traditionally. liberal states [music] like New York. El-Sayed, who campaigned on universal. health care and cutting off military aid. to Israel, [music].

was massively outspent in the race by. Stevens, who received $60 million. in outside money. >> [music]. >> And. >> We're in talks with the Iranians and I. think [music] there is a chance we may. have a deal today or tomorrow. to open the straight and move towards a. more normalized position [music] in this. conflict. >> On Tuesday, Treasury Secretary Scott. Bessent and Secretary of State Marco.

Rubio told reporters that negotiations. to reopen [music] the Strait of Hormuz. are making progress. Under the framework. being considered, ships entering the. Persian Gulf would have to travel. through a channel controlled [music] by. Iran, while outbound ships would travel. through a channel near Oman. Today's episode [music] was produced by. Olivia Nat, Anna Foley, and Carlos. Prieto with help from Ricky Novetsky.

[music] It was edited by Mark George. with help from Patricia Willens and. contains music by Pat McCusker, Elizabeth Eaton, Dan Powell, and [music]. Marion Lozano. Our theme music is by Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Alyssa. Moxley. [music]. >> [music]. >> That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie. Kitroeff. See you tomorrow.

>> [music].