Antisemitism and Free Speech Collide on Campuses

from New York Times I'm Michael baboro. this is the. [Music]. daily. today the story behind a congressional. hearing that ended the career of one. University president jeopardized the. jobs of two others and kicked off an. emotional debate about anti-Semitism and. free speech on college campuses.

I speak with my colleague Nick. Conor it's Wednesday December. 13th Nick thank you for coming in here. it's good to be here Michael I want you. to give us the backstory that brings us. to this now Infamous Congressional. hearing last week featuring several of. the country's top college presidents and. to the Uproar that this hearing. ultimately ends up triggering where does.

that story start it begins in the. aftermath of the October 7th attacks. when around the country campuses begin. to be royed by protests about the. attacks the aftermath the attacks the. Israeli. responsea you had students chanting from. The River To The Sea Palestine will be. free which for some of the protesters. were meant as more generic statements of. Palestinian freedom but for many Jews.

sound like calls for ethnic cleansing of. Jews from Israel because between the. Jordan River and the Medan SE is Israel. in its current borders. [Applause]. correct you had chance inata inata long. live the inata which is a word that. means Uprising but which many people. especially people of a certain age. sounds like an endorsement of the. violent tactics of the second and AATA. suicide attacks the Glorious October 7th.

yes and at least some of these events I. remember feeling so empowered that. victory was near and so tangible you. could hear speakers who were praising. the attacks of October 7th it was. exhilarating it was exhilarating it was. energizing endorsing them celebrating. them and there was one divid example at. UCLA where students battered a pinata of. Benjamin Netanyahu the prime minister of. Israel while a woman chanted.

beat that. Jew a lot of those moments were seen by. millions of people who would otherwise. tune in to what's happening on these. campuses and for Jews on these campuses. these videos and images often made them. feel unsafe even if they weren't. intended that way by the. students on top of that donors in alumni. are seeing them they're getting really. really upset and they start making calls. and they start to write emails right and. those calls and those emails basically.

say what almost from the beginning you. were hearing from donors in alumni who. felt that the response of these college. presidents was not forceful enough they. wanted a real intervention they wanted. powerful statements that the behavior. they were seeing on these videos was not. okay was not accepted at these. institutions and so against that. backdrop Republicans in the House of. Representatives decide that they're. going to do something about it they're. going to to hold a hearing on campus.

anti-Semitism and they invite the. presidents of three universities. Elizabeth McGill from the University of. Pennsylvania claudian gay from Harvard. and Sally cornbluth from MIT and why did. the Republicans invite these three. University presidents of all the. university presidents in the country. it's not entirely clear why they picked. these three schools MH in fact there. have been incidents like this at lower. profile School schools all around the.

country but what they all have in common. is that they are high-profile. institutions they are considered the. elite of Academia and making it about. them makes it a really big story right. and heading into this hearing what. exactly were these Congressional. Republicans up to what are their aims. for getting these three prestigious. College presidents before them well if. you pull back a little bit think how. over the last couple of years.

Republicans and conservatives have tried. to make the case that there is something. seriously wrong in Academia and that. they need to do something about it and. for many months this year this was at. the center of the Republican primary for. President right attacks on quote unquote. wokeism attacks on critical race Theory. an overemphasis on race and oppression. and in their minds and in their argument. those ideas are at the heart of what we. saw on those campuses and they saw an.

opportunity to make that case and make. that point to the American public after. a few months in which it seemed that a. lot of Voters in particular had stopped. tuning into those arguments so they're. going to try to make a direct link. between this liberal culture on college. campuses which they've been denouncing. and this anti-israeli rhetoric they're. seeing on campuses they're going to. suggest that those two things are. inextricably bound up together yes so. how does the hearing actually start good. morning the committee on education.

Workforce will come to order so the way. it begins and the part you didn't see on. the newscasts that night was each of the. college presidents we at Harvard reject. anti-Semitism and denounce any trace of. it on our campus or within our community. forcefully denouncing anti-Semitism let. me reiterate my and Penn's unyielding. commitment to combating it saying that. this kind of rhetoric is hurtful we have. increased security measures expanded.

reporting channels and augmented. counseling mental health and support. services here are the steps we are. taking to combat any semitism on our. campuses while I deplore all hateful. speech anti-semitic speech remains in. America protected but we also have to. protect free speech on campus and allow. people to say things even when we find. them objectionable that we need both. safety and free expression for. universities and ultimately democracy to.

thrive and they were trying to set up. this idea that people are going to say. things you don't agree with even. terrible things you don't agree with and. the values of our University can be. thought of as separate from the speech. that we allow as an academic institution. and they seem to want to distinguish. between free speech and harassment I. watch the hearing they're they're trying. to say some free speech is just free. speech sometimes it's harassment but. that's a really important distinction. that speech that incites violence is.

unacceptable yes what they're trying to. say is when do we take action against a. student as an institution for something. they say Well it has to cross a certain. threshold it has to be pervasive it has. to be harassment right they were saying. what is actually true under the law they. were expressing how things should work. on these. campuses and the problem for these. presidents is that that is not how it. actually works on these campuses and. that is where the Republicans went next. okay explain that uh I now recognize Mr.

Banks so if you focus on pen for a. second we saw in the questioning people. like Congressman Jim Banks and for the. past year your Administration has sought. to punish Amy wax begin to float. examples of conservative speakers who. had been heckled or shut down or. disfavored in some way on some of these. college campuses he talked about how the. university is currently trying to. sanction Amy wax a law professor stance. on Dei and identity issues for comments.

she made about the performance of black. students in her classes and then you. canel an event with former ice director. Tom Holman due to disruptive and he said. a few years ago a trump Administration. immigration official tried to come and. speak at pen and students there. basically shut down the speech because. they felt that he was bringing. anti-immigration and nativist rhetoric. to. campus on the other hand there are. examples where pen seemed to act less. decisively pen hosted a Palestine rights.

literature festival for example this. fall before the October 7th attacks Penn. played host to a Palestinian literary. Festival where speakers included Roger. Waters Roger Waters who's the former. Pink Floyd front man the same Roger. Waters by the way who's publicly used. anti-jewish slurs and has dressed up as. a Nazi and floated a pig balloon with. the Star of David at most at many of his. concerts and in fact fact Penn did Issue.

a statement saying we find some of the. rhetoric objectionable it's not. consistent with our values but they're. allowed to have this event so I think in. the eyes of Republicans one event is. allowed to go ahead and the other is. essentially canceled and so they see. that these standards are not really. being applied evenly and the way that. they're not being applied evenly. according to this Republican congressman. is that when Republican speakers. conservative-minded. guests are coming to campus there's a.

willingness to shut things down to quiet. it when it's more liberal-minded. speakers like this Pro Palestinian. speaker greater allowances are made. that's right that's what the Republicans. are claiming and here's why this moment. is so powerful Michael they're just. aren't that many conservatives on these. campuses anymore the student bodies tend. to be pretty liberal and the professors. tend to be very liberal in terms of. their distribution of political. affiliation it's mostly Democrats and. liberals not Republicans and. conservatives. so when speech happens that annoys.

conservatives on these campuses there. aren't protests there aren't real. efforts to shut them down right but. there are a lot of Jewish people on. these. campuses and one of the things that made. this moment so powerful and important. and useful politically on the Republican. side was that they could really put the. shoe on the other foot in a way that. would appeal to an audience much broader. than liberals who care on principle. about Free Speech mhm they could expand.

the audience of people who might say. there's something wrong at these places. because they had examples here that. weren't about a conservative from an. unpopular Administration who wasn't. allowed to talk about policy there they. have harmful rhetoric towards Jews on. Elite college campuses uh Mr grman. you're recognized for five minutes thank. you and there was one very interesting. moment when a congressman named Glenn. grman jumped in and he talked about this. issue of ideological diversity on these. campuses or lack of it lack of it uh in.

2016 they found about 2% and he said. look in. 2016 there's one survey that said that. only about 2% of the faculty at Harvard. had a positive view of President Trump. and he asked uh does it concern you at. all that you apparently have a lack of. ideological diversity at how can you. really have true diversity of ideas and. thought on a campus where almost. everybody hates president Trump right. the man who based on the math was.

elected president in 2016 basically he's. saying your campuses are deeply out of. sync with the rest of the country if. half the country voted for this guy give. or take but only 2% of your faculty has. a favorable impression of him what does. that say about how Harvard reflects the. perspectives of America as a whole and. could it be that that lack of. ideological diversity is part of the. problem we see here today with these. protests on campus so Republicans were. trying to make the case that these.

liberal-minded. universities have in their minds an. anti-Semitism problem they're doing it. in a few ways one of them is saying that. these schools do know how to clamp down. on speech that their students and their. faculty don't like right-wing speech. because they've done it which in a sense. these Republicans they make these. universities kind of hypocritical when. it comes to speech that is upsetting to. Jews another Point these Republicans are. making is that. anti-semitism might be the logical.

outcome they claim of having a liberal. monoculture that permeates these schools. without any kind of check or balance. from Republicans and conservatives. correct and then we come to this pivotal. moment uh Madam chair I'd like to yield. the balance of my time to the. gentlewoman from New York Alise stonic a. congresswoman from New York and in. Harvard alumni herself by the way asks a. question that is designed to highlight. what the Republicans on the panel see as.

the hypocrisy of these policies on. campus she asks does calling for the. genocide of Jews violate MIT is it okay. for a student to call for the genocide. of Jews at your institutions is a call. for the genocide of Jews protected. speech on your campus and that produced. the moment that I would say this hearing. was designed to. produce a moment where calling for the. genocide of Jews is anti Semitic so yes.

and that is anti-Semitic speech and as. I've said spe crosses into conduct and. it's a yes I've asked the when speech. conses when speech crosses into conduct. we take action so is that a yes is that. a yes the witness has an answered Madam. chair is that a yes you cannot answer. the question these three. credential Elite academics the heads of. some of these great institutions of. American academic life were. wishy-washy and couldn't get out the the. words calling for genocide is bad and.

there was this really incredible. exchange M Miguel at pen between stanic. and the president of the University of. Pennsylvania rules or code of conduct. yes or. no if the speech turns into conduct it. can be harassment yes I am asking where. stanic kept saying calling for the. genocide of Jews killing them all. because of their Jews in other words. does that constitute bullying or.

harassment right if it is directed and. severe or pervasive it is harassment so. the answer is yes it is a context. dependent decision congresswoman Mill. kept replying with this kind of. bureaucratic language it's context. dependent this is the easiest question. to answer yes Miss McGill if you're. talking about this in the context of how. do you govern and regulate speech on. campus that might be an appropriate.

answer mhm but at this. moment what the hearing was about was is. it okay to call for the genocide of Jews. at Harvard right so is your testimony. that you will not answer yes if it uh is. if the speech becomes if the speech. becomes conduct it can be harassment yes. she doesn't seem to appreciate and in. fact all three didn't seem to appreciate. in that moment that they were being. asked a moral question.

instead they are interpreting it. entirely as a legal question and the gap. between the two becomes very clear in. the answer or that they were being asked. a legal question that could be cast as a. moral answer and that was what made this. moment so damaging for them and what do. people take from these answers once the. hearing is over and they start spreading. across the. internet the calls for these leaders to.

resign after these answers grew very. very. intense and more and more people online. uh more and more donors in alumni were. saying if you can't give a. straightforward answer to this question. you should not be the president of. Harvard or MIT or the University of. Pennsylvania you don't deserve that job. you're the wrong. [Music]. person. [Music].

we'll be right. back so Nick what happens to these three. College presidents from Penn MIT and. Harvard after this hearing amid all. these calls to step down the Fallout. comes very swiftly.

within a few days 70 members of Congress. are calling for all three presidents to. resign and in some ways the most. pressure is on Liz McGill president of. upen where the donors and the school's. board members are the most outspoken and. active at this moment and because her. response was the most viral of the. videos that came out of the hearing. right and she responds in part with a. recorded video of her own there was a. moment during yesterday's Congressional. hearing on anti-Semitism an apology.

video when I was asked if a call for the. genocide of Jewish people on our campus. would violate our policies she talks. about essentially being too legalistic. FOC and not speaking clearly enough on. this important question of whether. genocide is okay it's evil plain and. simple right she basically says I I. screwed up during that hearing in her. video you get the sense that she. understands her job is on the line Penn. must initiate a serious and careful look.

at our policies and provos Jackson and I. will immediately convene a process to do. so thank you and it is because behind. the scenes donors and board members at. the University of Pennsylvania are. rallying and organizing and trying to. force her. out and within a few days they succeed. and Liz McGill. resigns and what about the president of. MIT and Harvard well they are under.

similar pressure there are calls for. them to resign too and here I think is. where Republicans including Elise stonic. make a mistake she tweets one down two. to go H then you begin to understand. that this is in fact a bit of political. theater that it has a political purpose. and it forced the people in these. institutions who actually have the. authority to make this decision who. actually pick the president of these. schools to decide whose interests would.

really be served if they forced out the. leaders of their institutions and what. happens in the ensuing days is the board. of MIT says Karen cornbluth has our. confidence we're not getting rid of her. we're not getting rid of her and not. long after the board at Harvard comes to. the same kind of decision and they say. that the events of recent days have not. shaken their confidence that claudian. gay is the right person to lead Harvard. so in a way these house Republicans. typified it seems by congresswoman.

stefanic who Nick youve written about a. lot for the times they kind of. overplayed their hands and revealed that. what they're up to here is a lot more. complicated as you've hinted at than. getting to the bottom of whether there's. an anti-Semitism problem on college. campuses or a free speech problem on. college campuses that's right Michael I. think there are multiple agendas at work. here first of all let's remind listeners. Alise stonic is not only a Harvard grad. but she sat on the board of their is. Institute of politics until the 2020.

election and after the election she made. so many false statements about the. election results in the service of. trying to help Donald Trump overturn the. election that there was a petition. calling for her asked her from the board. I remember this now and she was pushed. off of the board of an institution she. had once loved and been groomed for her. political career so she's pushed out of. a position she loved at Harvard. basically because she lied about the. 2020 election exactly and when she was.

pushed out she put out this defiant. statement saying that Harvard had. decided to quote cave to the woke left. and that she would wear being kicked off. the board as a quote badge of honor and. you begin to sense that there is more at. play here than just this rhetoric about. openness and dialogue right her. motivations here especially in going. after a place like Harvard that in her. mind has done her wrong they're messy. that's right. and I think stepanic is also an example.

of a broader problem that Republicans. have been wrestling with in their. Coalition which is anti-Semitic and. nativist ideas among some of their. supporters okay explain that in recent. years what was once a fringe ideology of. the very far right something called. great replacement theory has crept into. the Republican mainstream and the most. extreme version of this theory is that. there is a conspiracy of global Elites. to turn white civilizations in countries.

into brown ones through immigration. right and often in the most extreme. versions of this the Jews are pulling. the strings the Jews are part of a. conspiracy to undermine Western. Civilization by replacing white. Americans or white Europeans with. immigrants from Africa from Asia from. the Middle East right we've talked about. this on the show it's seen as. responsible for some of the anti-semitic. violence on the American right that's. right and in fact we've had three mass. shootings in recent years in this. country where the shooters wrote about.

replacement Theory seemed to be inspired. by replacement Theory the most popular. cable host in the country up until this. year Tucker Carlson was also one of the. great popularizers and mainstreamers of. replacement Theory right on his show you. could hear that rhetoric all the time. that Democrats incahoots with big. business and some Republicans were. trying to replace the native born. population of America with immigrants. for political power mhm and Alise stonic.

herself has delved into these Waters how. two years ago her campaign released. Facebook ads that essentially borrowed. and echoed elements of replacement. Theory H she got bashed for this of. course she was defiant but it shows you. how if you think about all the. discussion that replacement theory has. caused in the media on this show and. around the country you can understand. that this hearing was a chance to kind.

of flip the script and reset that. conversation for republicans and say see. the real problem with anti-Semitism the. real anti-semites are at Elite. universities got it another words. Republicans are very eager to redirect. this conversation about anti-Semitism to. being a problem of the left not just the. right that's exactly right and I think. we should also look at the broader. context here while the subject here is. partly about who gets to say what right.

should we have free. speech all around the country in state. legislatures Republicans are passing. banss on teaching critical race Theory. and defining that theory in pretty broad. ways and Florida professors are no. longer allowed to talk about systemic. racism in core classes it's been banned. it's been banned so by Republican. Administration yeah and so you know. there are obviously a lot of princip. Defenders of free speech on the right.

and the left and in the center but I. think some skepticism is warranted in. this moment because rather than saying. we should have more pluralism in these. universities we should accept all. viewpoints there are many people on the. right at the moment who want to replace. one ideology with another which is. another way of saying that when it comes. to academic Free Speech there is some. hypocrisy on both sides es not just on. the left but also on the right I think.

there is an incredible amount of. hypocrisy around Free Speech issues in. every institution in American life well. regardless of why Republicans seized on. this moment and held this hearing Nick. if you just Embrace for the moment that. universities are struggling with the. question of free speech when to embrace. it when to regulate it I wonder where. this now leads once a president of. University is ousted over this once two. other university president jobs have.

been put on the line even if they are. spared where do we think this goes does. it lead to more free speech or does it. lead to more regulation of free speech. on these. campuses we have been moving in the. direction of more regulation of Campus. speech for a long time now I think for a. long time liberals LED that charge and I. think that conservatives some. conservatives have given up on the idea. of fighting for neutrality on these.

questions and have resolved that if. there has to be a choice then they're. going to enforce conservative speech. restrictions and content restrictions on. college campuses kind of match what's. going on in their minds on the left yeah. and you know the other option for. everybody is to make a decision as an. institution as a society that we're. going to be offended sometimes people. are going to say things we don't like. they're going to lie they're going to.

mislead they're going to say I shouldn't. exist they're going to be hateful and. make a decision that maybe we have to. let that happen and police it less. because that in theory is the true. meaning of free speech as painful as it. clearly is I think free speech is often. painful and we have worked away from. that ideal in a lot of places in public. life but you know the idea that I'm. going to have to be offended once in a. while even really offended even.

feel that somebody is against who I am. on some fundamental level I think the. choice that we all have to make is is it. better in the end to do less to regulate. that kind of thing and embrace all the. pain and complexity that may result and. do we believe that that makes for a. healthier Society based on what you're. saying it doesn't seem that's the. direction we're headed in towards a pure. version of free speech on.

campus it doesn't to me and what I see. is an expanding circle of things that. you're not supposed to say in these. environments not a shrinking one but an. expanding one and it seems like that's. the way we're. heading the notion that the. administrations of these universities. should try to remain neutral on moral. and political questions and let. everyone's speak their perspective seems. less and less in.

favor and it feels like we're moving. more in the opposite direction to a. future in which in any given institution. whichever political side has the most. power guess to decide what speech is. really. allowed well Nick thank you very much. thank. [Music]. you. [Music].

we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today on Tuesday President Biden. delivered his most forceful critique to. date of Israel's military tactics in. Gaza saying that because of them. Israel's government was losing the. support of the International Community. the remarks delivered to donors off.

camera in Washington was a turning point. for Biden who since the October 7th. attacks on Israel has left criticism of. Israel's response to his deputies even. as the number of Civilian deaths in Gaza. has. mounted and Ukrainian president. volodimir zalinski traveled to Capitol. Hill on Tuesday where his pleas for. quick approval of more milit AR. assistance hit a brick wall of.

resistance from congressional. Republicans Republican house Speaker. Mike Johnson said that members of his. party had seen little evidence that. Ukraine has a real plan to defeat Russia. I have asked the white house since the. day that I was handed the gavel as. Speaker for clarity we need a clear. articulation of the strategy to allow. Ukraine to win and thus far their. responses have been insufficient they. have not and that without such a plan it.

doesn't make sense to keep giving. Ukraine more money as President Biden. has request the house and so what the. Biden Administration seems to be asking. for is billions of additional dollars. with no appropriate oversight no clear. strategy to win and and none of the. answers that I think the American people. are owed Biden has warned that unless. Congress approves more funding by the. end of the year which seems increasingly. unlikely Ukraine's ability to defend. itself against Russia will be in serious.

Jeopardy today's episode was produced by. Claire tennis Ricky nety AA chv and muj. zadii it was edited by MJ Davis Lynn. with help from Paige coward contains. original music by Marian Lozano Alicia. bitu Pat mccusker and Diane Wong and was. engineered by Chris. our theme music is by Jim brunard and.

Ben lansberg of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael. borro see you. [Music]. tomorrow.