An Unexpected Battle Over Banning Caste Discrimination

from The New York Times I'm Michael. Barbaro this is a daily today. [Music]. California is about to become the first. state in the country to Outlaw. discrimination based on a person's cast. my colleague Amy chin on why so many now. believe a Prejudice that originated on. the other side of the globe now requires.

legal protection in the U.S and why so. many are equally convinced that it's a. bad idea that will backfire. it's Monday September 25th. Amy I wonder if you can tell us about. this piece of legislation which was. recently passed by California's. democratically controlled legislature. and now sits on the desk of its.

Democratic governor Gavin Newsom. so the bill is called the Senate Bill. 403 or SB 403 for short and essentially. it will make cast discrimination illegal. in California and that means everywhere. from housing to employment. discrimination based on cast will not be. allowed it will become a protected. characteristic just like sex gender. sexual orientation people will not be.

able to discriminate on that basis so. just define this word cast I think we. all have a little bit of a sense of what. it means but would benefit from hearing. you explain it so the caste system is. one of the oldest systems of social. stratification and it began in India. thousands of years ago. it has its roots in Hinduism and. essentially it's a rigid social. hierarchy that people are born into. and the system really govern everything. about people's lives from who they.

married to the job that they did and at. a very basic level you have at the top. of this hierarchy The brahmanas Who. historically were priests they had. access to education and were considered. the purest then you have the warrior. cast The Merchant cast the laborer cast. and at the very bottom you had what were. known as The quote-unquote Untouchables. who prefer to call themselves Dulles. and they were considered to be so impure. that they were outcasts and they were. relegated to doing jobs that were also. seen as impure like street sweeping or.

toilet cleaning and they couldn't even. drink from the same well water as other. casts. [Music]. yeah. over time the system spread throughout. South Asia and spread to other religious. communities like to Christians and Sikhs. and the cast hierarchy was also. reinforced under British colonial rule. and then in the mid 20th Century cast. discrimination was outlawed in countries. like India and Nepal but of course we. know that just because you banned.

something on paper doesn't mean it. actually is gone in practice and so cast. is still a very strong marker of. identity in many places and you can see. it in the Privileges that people have. and their Social Circles and the kinds. of opportunities that they have access. to and this is really still present. across South Asia much in the way I. imagine that when racial Prejudice in. the US is outlawed it nevertheless keeps. happening just because it's bandimal law. doesn't mean it doesn't persist right.

and some people have drawn that parallel. the journalist Isabel Wilkerson wrote a. best-selling book called cast and where. she compared the caste system in India. to the way that race operates in America. the idea that you can be born into a. certain hierarchy and that it can be. extremely difficult to escape your. circumstances so the fact Amy that. there's a bill in California about caste. discrimination now suggests that. lawmakers there believe that this is not.

just something that remains a problem. overseas in South Asia but it is somehow. been imported in the United States. that's right they've been hearing from. their constituents in California that. this is becoming a bigger and bigger. problem in the diaspora and that in. order to protect residents of California. they need to have a bill specifically. focusing on caste discrimination in. order to prevent this type of. discrimination from happening in the.

future but why right now I mean you just. referred to a diaspora people from South. Asia have been coming to California for. Generations why this moment for this. bill to resolve this problem. so it really has to do with patterns of. immigration after a big Immigration Act. in 1965 was passed in the United States. we saw a huge migration of people from. Asia including India to the United.

States and a lot of those people that. came over were people who were skilled. workers they had degrees and were able. to get jobs in the tech industry and the. medical industry in the United States. and a lot of these people in India who. were able to have the resources to get. these types of degrees were from the. upper caste and so for a long time cast. discrimination didn't really exist or at. least people didn't think it really. existed because everyone was from the. same cast but that's changed over time.

as the composition of the people who are. coming from India has also changed in. large part that has to do with certain. changes that are happening in India. itself the country has put in place a. system of essentially affirmative action. where there are quotas now for people. from lower castes to go to universities. to occupy government positions and we. are now starting to see the effects of. those affirmative action policies where.

you had a lot of people who were from. lower caste going to these universities. and now they suddenly have the degrees. to get those skilled worker visas to. come to the U.S and so the people who. are coming over from India to the United. States are actually much more diverse. and in California we've really seen that. shift happen because a lot of these. people are coming to work in I.T jobs. specifically in Silicon Valley which is. why we're seeing so much of this issue. being debated in California now.

foreign. [Music]. so suddenly a much more diverse group of. South Asians are in a place like. California and I'm gonna guess that that. creates a greater opportunity for. potential conflict once they arrive. right and the cast issue really bursts. into public Consciousness in 2020 when. California brought a lawsuit against.

Cisco which is a pretty well-known tech. company and in the lawsuit an employee. who is from a dullet background accused. two of his bosses who are from upper. cast backgrounds of discriminating. against him in his job on the basis of. caste he said that they had given him. less pay that they had denied certain. opportunities to him in the workplace. and the state on his behalf was suing. Cisco and this really led to a huge. conversation in California I think in a. way that we hadn't seen before and this.

was taking place at around the same time. as the death of George Floyd had sparked. the black lives matter movement and. suddenly people people were able to. describe their experiences with cast. discrimination using vocabulary that was. understandable to people who. understood it in the context of race. terms like systemic discrimination and. oppressed communities these were all. Concepts that now the public was much. more familiar with fascinating so the. conversation going on in the U.S in the.

wake of George Floyd's death this. wrenching conversation about race. oppression systemic racism that is. giving people from South Asia a. framework for thinking about the. Discrimination that they believe they. are experiencing here in the U.S that's. been imported from South Asia that's. right and it's around this time that. people started to feel more comfortable. talking about their experiences with. cast discrimination I mean we heard. stories about people experiencing wage.

theft at the hands of their upper cast. bosses there were people talking about. social exclusion that they weren't being. allowed to eat from the same cups and. plates as Brahmin employers I spoke with. one doctor in California who said that. when other doctors in her City had found. out that she was from a lower caste they. stopped referring patients to her. practice and one person that I spoke to. really stood out to me. his name is beam Narayan Bishop Karma.

he's 44 he works at a convenience store. in El Cerrito California and he's from. Nepal originally and he told me that he. had experienced caspase discrimination. growing up in Nepal while growing as a. child I was not that much respected. especially when it comes to you know. entering a friend's houses when he would. hang out with his friends his friend's. parents would let him go into their.

homes because he was from a lower caste. and I used to feel like oh I felt like. insulted or discriminated so of course. one of the reasons to come to the U.S is. the Casper's discrimination. and he eventually moved to California he. got a job and at one point a few years. ago he was looking for a room in a. shared house and he found a great one. and on August 18 2021 I visited the.

house he spoke with the landlord who was. also from Nepal the landlord sawied his. contentment to welcome me as a tenant. the landlord was really excited for him. to move in as a single guy so presumably. he would be you know quiet and not too. much of a disturbance everything was. finalized the landlord requested me the. deposit to his account so he gives the. landlord his deposit. and everything seemed like it was fine. but then six hours later he gets a call.

from the landlord and the landlord says. sorry I can't rent this room to you. anymore and that was talking to me as I. had a smooth and pleasant conversation. with him and everything was finalized. that day then I asked him what what. happened and why he flipped it over his. words. beam said he was asking questions you. know why and the landlord is giving all. kinds of reasons he said he needs a room. for family members who visit and bean. was just very confused and then all of a. sudden I suddenly remembered the scene.

where we exchanged our numbers and I. saying my name he remembers that when he. had given the deposit to the landlord he. had given him his full name and his last. name is bishwakarma which in Nepal is. associated with a lower caste and then. beam started to confront his landlord I. mean I told him that I know why you are. denying I know the reason why you are. denying the room to me but even before. beam himself said the word cast Then he.

said no no no no no don't think that way. don't don't think that way it's not your. car it's not your cause see I didn't. even say a single word about my cast the. landlord said oh no no it's not because. of your cast even though being hadn't. mentioned cast at all I kind of tell. yeah exactly to beam it became obvious. that actually it was because of his cast. when that incident happened to me. I was kind of oh my goodness I thought I.

left it back in Nepal but again it came. to the U.S again it's happening with the. people. I felt like you know I was like. shattered that incident shattered my. self-dignity self-respect I felt like. humiliated so definitely that incident. has hurt me from within actually he said. he just was in such shock because he had. never expected to experience any of this. kind of caste-based discrimination in. the United States I mean it's one of the.

reasons why he left Nepal right so. suddenly he's finding that this Vestige. of his former life that he was very. happy to leave behind has actually. followed him to California and reared. its head in a pretty ugly way according. to him that's right so what's the. response to this growing awareness of. cast discrimination as people like beam. are telling the stories he told you so. people start to say that there need to. be more protections made explicit for. people who are experiencing caspase.

discrimination so we start to see. universities incorporate caste based. discrimination into their. anti-discrimination statutes companies. follow suit earlier this year we saw. Seattle become the first U.S city to ban. caspase discrimination and then in. February this year California state. Senator Aisha wahab who represents a. large constituency of South Asians. introduced a bill to add cast-based. discrimination to the state's. anti-discrimination statutes so what.

ends up happening to this bill. well you might think that an. anti-discrimination bill would not be. very controversial in a place like. California which is generally a pretty. Progressive state but it actually ends. up meeting with a lot of resistance and. it sets off this huge incredibly intense. battle. [Music]. we'll be right back. thank you.

[Music]. so Amy why does this bill arouse. resistance who ends up being most. opposed to it so the people who have. been most vocal in their opposition to. this bill have been people within the. South Asian diaspora in the United. States. so they have been very very active in. going to local City Council meetings to.

the state capitol to protest against the. bill and they have been really angry we. strongly oppose sb403 when there is. notice. in. they lay out a. list we have never witnessed any. existence of caste sentiments let alone. discrimination among the Vibrant. Community members they say that. cast-based discrimination doesn't really.

exist in the United States we know. discrimination is covered by existing. laws or maybe it happens here or there. but it's really not that big of a. problem and certainly not big enough to. justify a bill. they also say that a lot of people came. here from South Asia to America in order. to start a new life and Leave Behind. These ancient systems of caste I have no. knowledge of my own caste and I don't. see the point in introducing it as a. build and by passing this law that it. will only bring cast back into the.

conversation in a way that will impose. an identity on them that they don't. actively practice we are looking to heal. and I don't understand how the. introduction of a caste system would. help in healing. hmm I just want to make sure I. understand it some of the people opposed. to this law are basically saying it will. force cast on them in a way that cast. doesn't exist for them it will make it. more important in their lives than they. want it to be which is pretty. fascinating right as soon as you use the.

word cost you asked thousand California. they will say God's word is linked to. Hinduism and one of the arguments that. you hear the most is that this law. abandoning cast discrimination will. actually lead to more discrimination. this is purely Injustice for Indian. Americans and particularly Hindus. particularly against Hindus my kids went. to school here right down the street I. have lived in the city for 25 years. I've never felt more discriminated in. this country than right now.

hmm what's the thinking there. well the people who make this argument. say that because caste due to the. average American It's associated with. Indians and Hindus in particular so that. this law will actually end up targeting. a very specific group of people so. unlike broad categories like gender or. race or sexual orientation which affect.

many different people this bill actually. only really affects a small subset of. people and that it will make Hindus in. particular especially vulnerable to. accusations of discrimination. so Amy when for example Hindus opposed. to this bill speak out against it and. make the argument you just made what. specific situations are they worried. about. well I spoke to one Professor who is. Hindu and teaches at a university in. California and he said that for example. he serves on his University's tenure.

committee and that committee really. decides whether or not a person should. be granted tenure and it's oftentimes a. very contentious decision and he said. that he's nervous now that because of. this bill he will have a Target on his. back that if he participates in a. decision not to Grant someone tenure. that that person could potentially go. back to him and accuse him of caspase. discrimination and he would be more open. to accusations of discrimination than.

the rest of his colleagues because he is. Hindu so he really doesn't want to see. this law passed because he feels like it. will make his job really hard and he. won't be able to participate in these. types of activities that as a professor. one is expected often to do so a big. argument being made here it sounds like. is that in a litigious Society a new law. that creates a new category of. discrimination and protection against it. is not without some real world potential.

implications and costs. right these people say that they don't. engage in cast discrimination but that. in their everyday decisions everything. from hiring and firing to who they bring. on as tenants that this will introduce a. new level of legal apparel and fear. and make them worry that they might be. open to being sued when there's actually. nothing going on on the other hand. I wonder if it feels like some of these.

arguments from opponents are actually. being made in good faith and let me. explain I mean these arguments do make. sense on their face right no one wants. to be open to a lawsuit that they. weren't open to before but this whole. list of arguments by those opposed to. the law. feels familiar in the context of. American History I struggle to think of. an anti-discrimination law that didn't. arouse similar arguments from people who. felt that the problem was being.

overstated right it was sporadic it's. not systematic or worried it opened them. to lawsuits or targeted them as a source. of discrimination I mean surely there. were men who didn't like when laws. started to protect women against. gender-based discrimination so is it. possible that What's Happening Here is. that I do think that many opponents of. the bill are making these arguments in. good faith and that they really are. worried about being targeted and that. this law might be misused against them.

but the supporters of the bill say that. in their view this concern is really. outweighed by the stories people are. sharing about what's happened to them. and they suggest that just because some. South Asians don't experience caspase. discrimination or don't see it in their. own Social Circles doesn't mean that. it's not happening or that it won't. happen in the future. but of course one side is poised to win. this debate right Governor Newsom a. Democrat is expected to sign this bill. into law members of his party passed it. and the conflict that you have just laid.

out here suggests that enforcing it once. it becomes law is gonna be kind of. tricky right yes it will definitely be a. challenge I mean once this becomes law. and lawsuits are filed we're going to. start seeing American jurors who really. don't have much experience or knowledge. about the caste system which is this. hugely complex thing that's very nuanced. it's been around for thousands of years. and intersects with cultures and. religions that they're going to have to.

start adjudicating on this issue. but this is also how our legal system. works you passed a law and case law is. built and precedence slowly are formed. and I think that ultimately what people. who support the bill would say is that. the hope is we can create a place. for people like beam who have. experienced this type of cast-based. discrimination to be able to really feel. comfortable coming forward and Seeking. Justice and that ultimately they will.

have the protections that they were. hoping to have when they came here in. the first place. [Music]. Amy thank you very much we appreciate it. thank you so much Michael. [Music]. we'll be right back. here's what else you need it's another.

day. on Sunday night after 146 day strike. that crippled Hollywood the union. representing more than 11. 000 TV and film writers said it had. reached a tentative deal with. entertainment companies that if approved. would bring its members back to work. exact details were unclear but the times. reports that the deal delivered much of. what the writers had demanded including. higher royalty payments for streaming.

content and guarantees that artificial. intelligence won't encroach on writers. credits and compensation. [Music]. and. U.S government is on track to shut down. in less than a week unless house Speaker. Kevin McCarthy can meet the demands of a. small group of far-right lawmakers who. have called for deep cuts to annual. spending. because Republicans hold such a slim. majority in the house and because house.

Democrats refuse to support the. Republican spending bills the far-right. lawmakers have the power to the. entire federal government they have. already blocked several attempts to. extend Government funding by just a few. months to avoid a shutdown and all we. want to do is have a responsible. government you can't keep spending seven. trillion dollars when you're only taking. in 5 trillion that just doesn't work and. it's completely dysfunctional in an. interview with CNN on Sunday one of.

those far-right Republicans. representative Tim Burton of Tennessee. defended his approach that's why folks. like me I'm you know we're sticking to. our guns and all of a sudden we're the. bad guys because we want to balance our. budget without a compromise the. government will begin to shut down. shortly after midnight on October 1st. today's episode was produced by astha. chaturvedi and Stella tan with help from.

Diana Nguyen and Shannon Lim it was. edited by Patricia willins with help. from Mark George fact checked by Susan. Lee contains original music by Dan. Powell Marion Lozano and Roni misto and. was engineered by Chris Wood our theme. music is by Jim brunberg and Ben landfur. of wonderly. special thanks to Aisha Khan. [Music].

[Music]. it for the daily I'm Michael Bavaro. see you tomorrow. [Music].