An Explosive Hearing in Trump’s Georgia Election Case

from New York Times I'm Michael babbaro. this is the. [Music]. daily our relationship wasn't a secret. it was just private so today it is an. inaccurate way to State the question and. I will certainly restate it so it it's. very accurate okay and please do not. yell at. me an explosive and emotional court.

hearing on Thursday in Georgia has. revealed that what once seemed like a. Longshot legal challenge to an election. interference case against Donald Trump. and his allies is now a serious threat. that could derail the entire case no no. no no this is the truth it is a lie it. is a lie my colleague Richard faet walks. us through the dramatic opening day of. testimony.

it's Friday February. [Music]. 16th Richard this was one of the most. remarkable Court hearings I've ever seen. and I watch a lot of Court. hearings it was cinematic it was. suspenseful it was angry I mean at one. point the judge stopped the proed. meetings to kind of ask everyone to calm.

down and it was. extraordinarily high. stakes that's exactly my reaction there. was no idea when the hearing started. this morning where it was going to go. lawyers were making on the Fly arguments. based on stuff they had just learned a. star witness we thought was going to. change the whole shape of the day and. perhaps the week didn't end up being the. star witness it ended up being uh.

somebody else and then of course we just. had this absolute white hot torrent of. emotion from fonny Willis the prosecutor. in this election interference case and. the whole time you're thinking about the. stakes which is that this tremendous. criminal case that has a former. president in its crosshairs is. potentially under threat right well I. think we have to rewind the clock just a. few weeks to establish.

why this hearing happens and why it is. so important and why the drama of this. day matters and this all starts and I. want you to explain this with a. defendant that most of us had never. really heard of in this Georgia. racketeering case against Donald Trump. and his alleged co-conspirators who are. accused of allegedly criminally. attempting to overturn the Georgia. election so tell us the story of that. defendant and and how he brings us to.

this. hearing sure so this criminal. prosecution started out with an. indictment of 19 people including some. serious you know high-profile names. among them of course Donald Trump Rudy. Giuliani who was a defendant uh Mark. Meadows who served as Donald Trump's. white house chief of staff toward the. end of his term but there were also this. kind of array of much more obscure and. sort of fascinating individuals and one.

of them was a guy named Michael Roman. and that's the guy you're talking about. he was a top official in Trump's 2020. campaign he was Trump's director of. election day operations and you know he. was involved with a number of other. lawyers and AIDS to uh Donald Trump in. creating this idea that there should be. these fake electors who could somehow. serve as the actual electors to turn the. election that Mr Trump lost in his favor. and and keep him in the white house.

right but he definitely was not like uh. you know a brand named defendant exactly. thank you so you know this case was. really kind of rocking along and it. really was a case where the prosecutions. seemed to have the upper hand it was um. pretty airtight in a lot of ways and. four of the 19 original defendants had. taken guilty pleas but what happened is. there was one of these many pre-trial. deadlines on January 8th and sort of of. the blue Michael Roman's lawyer drops.

this absolute bomb of emotion in which. she makes some allegations that sent the. entire case down this kind of course of. like a t Nolla you know melodrama that. nobody saw coming well just describe. this T Noll esque motion that Michael. Roman and his lawyer. file so the motion that kind of sent.

everything into this very different. direction alleged that fonny Willis the. district attorney who is heading up the. prosecution was engaged in an affair. with the man she hired to manage the. case a man named Nathan Wade and that he. had been paid hundreds of thousands of. dollars by the DA's office and he' used. some of this money to take fonny Willis. on a number of exotic vacations to. places like Aruba and Napa Valley and as. a result of all these things the lawyer.

argues both Mr Wade and Miss Willis and. Miss Willis's entire office which. happens to be the largest prosecutor's. office in the state of Georgia should. all be disqualified from the case huh. and the idea of disqualifying these. prosecutors doesn't just threaten the. case against Michael Roman it threatens. the entire case against all the 15. remaining defendants including in Donald.

Trump it really creates a scenario by. which the case could just go poof it. could just go away okay so putting aside. for just a moment the accuracy of this. allegation and the motion can you just. explain the legal questions that it. raises why would a relationship between. these two lawyers potentially disqualify. them from the case and end up having the. whole case potentially thrown out so. Michael Roman's Motion makes the case. essentially that the motives of the.

district attorney may be you know less. than pure that what motivates her every. day when she wakes up and prosecutes. this huge case is not just uh seeing. through a prosecution in the interest of. justice but also you know this sense. that there's a kind of another motive. that's working in concert with it which. is to enrich herself because her one. time boyfriend was making all this money. that her office is paying him and that. she's using it to go on these vacations.

and that somehow her judgment is clouded. and as a result the very process of. justice is clouded got it so the. allegation is that by hiring her. boyfriend to work on the case fonny. Willis's interest becomes not. necessarily in properly Prosecuting this. case but basically in keeping it going. at all costs because it benefits her. that's right so one of Michael Roman's. motions says that the more work that's. done on the case regardless of what.

Justice calls for the more fonnie Willis. and Nathan Wade get paid the more they. fight his motions the more they get paid. the more they refuse to dismiss. defendants who should not be indicted. the more money they make and that all of. this amounted to a conflict of interest. and of course the more money the special. prosecutor makes Roman's lawyer uh wrote. the more the district attorney gets to. reap the financial benefits so you get. the idea um that there's something there. that is motivating her Beyond just this.

pure quest to see the justice is done. and what this motion seems to claim is. that if this alleged relationship and. the benefit that it brings to fonny. Willis can be proven then this entire. case should therefore be thrown. out that's right although it's worth. keeping in mind that a number of legal. Scholars have argued that even if all of. these allegations were true there's. really no basis for this being construed. as a conflict of interest and that these.

prosecutors should stay on the case and. it should be Steady As She Goes from. here on now that this is all a big. distraction that has no legal Merit so. what you're saying is that no one's. quite sure that legally speaking there's. a real argument here to be made by. Michael Roman and if I'm remembering. correctly the feeling that a lot of. people had when this motion was filed. was that it was kind of a Hail Mary. right and there was not much evidence. that it was necessarily even true yeah. well I mean it was a Hail Mary in the.

sense that Michael Roman's lawyer didn't. include any evidence to back up her. claim this this very salacious claim so. there was a moment there when nobody. knew really what to make of it it was a. very uncomfortable moment given the. nature of the allegations and given the. seriousness of this case and a few days. after the initial filing by Michael. Roman good. morning.

fonnie Willis gave a speech at an. African-American church in Atlanta first. thing they. say oh she going to play the race card. now but no God isn't it them who's. playing the race card when they only. question one is in which she sort of. portrayed this whole thing as a big. Witch Hunt she also insinuated that race. was a motivation for this scrutiny of. her and for Nathan Wade both of whom are.

africanamerican God wasn't it them that. attacked this lawyer of impeccable. credentials the black man I chose has. been a judge more than 10 years is it. that some will never see a black man as. qualified no matter his. achievements what more can one achieve. the other two have never but then a few. days later it looked like there was. indeed some there there it came out that.

there were. some credit card statements that showed. that Nathan Wade had bought tickets to. vacation destinations for himself and. for fonny Willis so it started to look. like you know this is more than just a. figment of someone's imagination but. fonny Willis and her office were. convinced that there is really no legal. basis for an affair to result in her. being disqualified she files a motion. that essentially acknowledges the affair.

it included a sworn affidavit from. Nathan Wade in which he said yes there. was an affair it started in 2022 after. I'd started working for the DA's office. in November. 2021 but the argument was yes there is. some there there however judge there's. no need for an evidentiary hearing just. looking at the law there is no reason. why this relationship between two. consenting adults in their 50s should. have any bearing on an election. interference case involving a former.

president of the United States but. another dramatic moment comes when the. judge basically says look we've got to. determine the Contours of this thing. because if these allegations were true. there is a possibility that this did. constitute a conflict of interest or an. appearance of a conflict of interest. which might be enough for him to. disqualify these prosecutors so he went. ahead and he set the evidentiary. hearing. and the judge's decision was a.

tremendous loss for fonnie Willis in her. office and not only because she felt. like this was an absolutely unted and. sort of offensive intrusion into her. personal life but it also meant that. this question was was live this question. of whether or not there was some basis. to disqualify her in her office and send.

what without question is the biggest. case she'll ever have to a place where. we're really not sure whether it'll end. up in a trial at. [Music]. all we'll be right. back so Richard headed into Thursday's.

evidentiary hearing this highly. anticipated legal session what are the. biggest questions that everyone's. looking for answers to well some of the. biggest questions were laid out by the. judge himself and they all had to do. with his interest in the extent to which. there was some kind of financial benefit. to these prosecutors as a result of this. criminal case the first question has to. do with time timing fonny Willis and.

Nathan Wade have said their relationship. started after November 2021 which is his. key date when he begins working as a. contractor for the Fulton County. District Attorney's Office Michael. Roman's lawyer a lawyer named Ashley. Merchant had asserted that she was going. to be able to prove that the affair. started beforehand and all this we think. is of interest to the judge because it. just looks different when you're. thinking about the question of self-de. right did you hire a guy and this guy is.

someone you you after long hours at the. office or whatever you kind of fell for. and things progressed from there or was. it somebody who was really kind of. already established as a boyfriend and. what you're really doing is hooking up. your boyfriend with a plum job and so. that was one key piece and one key. question everyone had going in the. second had to do more with the money as. it pertains to the trips that fonny. Willis and Nathan Wade took together to. Aruba to California wine country. the prosecutors had claimed that they.

roughly split the cost of these trips. they didn't provide uh huge amount of. evidence they provided a little bit of. evidence that seemed to sort of hint at. this idea but the judge obviously wanted. to see a lot more and in fact during the. hearing both of these issues were indeed. quite big okay so walk us through the. most important moments of testimony. especially as they relate to these two. key questions rise thank you all please.

be seated all right we are on the record. with 23 well the first issue the timing. issue when did the affair start was. something that we thought was going to. be answered because Michael Roman's. lawyer said it was going to be answered. by a man named Terrence Bradley who. received a subpoena to testify good. morning Mr Bradley how are you good. morning not happy to be here I'm. assuming I am not okay I understand. thank you for being here wasn't by. choice right um Mr Bradley is a former. law partner of Nathan Wade's he also.

served for a time as Nathan Wade's. divorce lawyer um when did Mr Wade come. to you to file the divorce action in cop. County yeah I'm that's that's privileged. information but when Terence Bradley. took the stand almost immediately he was. met with a barrage of concerns from. defense lawyers and they threw up all. these objections are you aware of when.

their romantic relationship began your. honor I'm going to object that's relates. to privilege he says that he began some. of them on some technical legal grounds. some of them on this very specific. technical legal ground that there was an. attorney client privilege that should. prevent him from discussing anything. having to do essentially with the affair. again I have consulted uh with the bar I. cannot reveal anything that I saw or. learned Mr Bradley is kind of sitting on.

the stand saying look you know I talked. to the bar association there's really. very little for me to do here if I want. to keep my law license I need to just. kind of keep it zipped so Mr Bradley you. may be excused for now thank you we will. call Mr YY so as kind of all this is. unfolding and there's a little bit of. Chaos in the courtroom and you can see. that some people's hackles are being. raised Michael Roman's lawyer says okay. well I'm just going to call another. person that I've served the subpoena. would you please state and spell your. full name for the court Robin Latrice Yi.

this is a woman named Robin yty can you. tell the judge when you first met Miss. Willis in college who is a former friend. of fonnie Willis and do you understand. it that their relationship began in 2019. and continued until the last time you. spoke with her. yes and you were essentially her best. friend during this time right not best. friend good okay good friend okay close. friend and she asserted that you know.

she knew fonnie quite well and that. fonny wills's affair with Nathan Wade. started before his start date of. November. 2021 a pretty key piece of testimony. that directly contradicts what Wade and. Willis claim to be the starting point of. their. relationship yes she was very emphatic. about this point um you have no doubt. that there Roman R Mantic relationship. was in effect from 2019 until the last.

time you spoke with her no doubt okay so. it was obviously a very dramatic moment. and it of course raises the question of. whether or not someone is lying right. another thing that Miss y's testimony. did was it gave the defense attorneys. the ability to call their next witness. to the stand please St your name for the. point my name is Nathan Wade who was. none other than Nathan Wade himself when.

did your romantic relationship with Miss. Willis begin 2022 when in 2022 early. 2022 Nathan Wade takes the stand and he. continues to insist that the Romantic. relationship between him and fny Willis. began in 2022 after he'd been hired by. her to do the Trump case but a lot of. his testimony centered around. questions about whether or not she had.

paid him for roughly half of all of. these trips what I allege is that our. travel was split roughly evenly so where. you see I have booked the flight or I've. paid for a flight with my credit card. what you don't see is that she covered. her own flight reimbursement to me so. this roughly sharing travel you're. saying she reimbursed you she did and. where did you deposit the money she.

reimbursed you oh was cash she didn't. she didn't give me any checks so she. paid you cash for her share of all these. vacation Mr schaer you'll step out if. you do that he claims that fonny Willis. repaid him for a number of these travel. related vacation expenses in cash in. fact everything got repaid in cash 2023. December you said you didn't have any. receipts I do not have any receipts I. did not have any receipts but you did. travel with Miss Willis he also said at. one point point that he didn't have any.

deposit slips that showed that he'd. received the cash and then deposited it. that she was somebody who was a. independent woman it was very important. for her to make sure that they more or. less went Dutch on stuff and that the. way she did it was not through an app it. wasn't by writing a check it wasn't. vinmo it was you know with physical. American currency so wait is saying this. was all on the up and up fonnie Willis. his girlfriend at the time was paying.

for half of everything but he can't. prove it because she's paying him back. in cash and he doesn't have any records. of depositing that. cash yeah that's right and as you can. imagine this was received with something. like extreme incredulity from the. defense lawyers and she paid you cash. for both of your portions or just hers. both okay so that trip bise just bise.

she paid you for everything on bise the. entire trip okay so the and of course to. the defense lawyers all this felt a. little bit too convenient the fact that. these cash payments of course would have. no record to preserve that they they. actually happen right so at this point. and Richard I was watching some of this. testimony things are not going super. well for Fanny Willis or Nathan Wade. we've got this witness saying the. relationship between the two of them. started earlier than either has.

acknowledged we have no records that. fonny Willis reimbursed Wade it's rough. sledding that's right and all right Miss. Merchant any other Witnesses yes we. would call fonny Willis 16 in the middle. of all this steps fonny Willis we would. ask the court uh that that the that the. court allowed this Willis to be called. and interrogated on these yeah can I wa. to your honor who walked unaccompanied.

through the front door of the courtroom. I'm ready to go okay so and she said. something to the effect of let's do this. and she said it at a time when her. lawyer was trying to argue to the judge. um that there was no reason why her. testimony should even be necessary but. she really made this kind of dramatic. decision to go ahead and put herself on. the stand um Miss Willis when how did. you know to come into the courtroom. right then were people I was pacing in. my office okay and um I heard someone.

yell his testimony is done um it only. made sense to me that I would be your. next witness and I've been very anxious. to have this conversation with you today. so I ran to the courtroom so as soon as. it was very much in keeping with fonny. Willis and her personality which is. extremely big so she is confronted by. Ashley Merchant the lawyer for Michael. Roman. and these two women have this very.

intense face off let's start back in. 2019 so um you and Mr Wade met in. October 2019 at a conference that is. correct and I think in one of your. motions you tried to implicate I slept. with him at that conference which I find. to be extremely offensive I. stay from the get-go it's obvious that. fonny Willis is. extremely angry and keep the answers. confined to the question as best you can. I think you'll have more than enough. opportunity on uh when the state was.

high offensive when someone lies on you. and it's highly offensive when they try. to implicate that you slept with. somebody the first day you met with them. and I take exception to it all right. well miss and it was just a searing uh. series of moments no no no no this is. the truth and it is a lie it is a lie M. Willis Mr say thank you we're gonna take. five minutes and the judge judge McAfee. basically shut the proceedings down for. about five minutes which is a very judge. McAfee thing to do he's a very kind of.

even keill judge and he you could tell. he needed to just put a put a damper on. things and and give everybody a chance. to including fonny Willis to just cool. down and what do we end up learning from. fonny Willis's dramatic testimony here. about some of the key questions we have. been talking. about well one of the most important. things we learned from finding wills's. testimony was that she is going to stick. to her story and Nathan Wade story and. um you all start when did you start.

dating when I started dating Mr Wade it. was right around then um April 20202 22. yes that their romantic relationship. really only blossomed in 2022 you know. it's not like when you're in grade. school and you send a little letter and. it says well you be my girlfriend and. you check it I don't know the day that. we. started seeing each other but it was. early 22 is my recollection okay after. she hired him to work on the Trump case.

I would say we had a tough conversation. in August she also told us that they. stopped dating sometime around the. summer of 2023 before the Trump. indictment was handed up um so let's. let's just back up and talk about the. first time that you went to to Florida. with Mr Wade um that was the time that. you said you stayed in Miami at the. hotel the and there was also this really. interesting conversation about. the fact that it was Nathan Wade who had.

put so many of these travel related. charges on his own credit cards so yes. he paid he is the original one that does. it Mr Wade is a world traveler um I'm. not as versed as him he's been to six of. the seven continents um and so he has. both a personal travel agent and he also. has a cruise travel she said that he's a. world traveler that he's really you know. in that relationship he was the guy who. was more experienced in in setting up uh.

travel plans and and paying for them I. know he initially paid for it did you. pay him back for the cruise and for. Aruba yeah I gave him his money before. we ever went on that trip you gave him. cash before you ever went on the trip. okay and so when you got cash to pay him. back on these trips would you go to the. ATM no lady you would not go to the ATM. no and then there was also a really. interesting conversation about why. relied so much on cash to reimburse him.

for some of these travel expenses so the. cash that you would pay him you wouldn't. get it out of the bank I have money in. my house you have money in your house so. it was just money that was. there when you meet my father he was. going to tell you as a woman you should. always have which I don't have so let's. don't tell him that you should have at. least six months in cash at your house. at all time now I don't know why this. old black man feels like that but he. does when we were growing up her. argument was that it was really based in. a lot of things that her father who.

she's very close to and who really. played a very big role in raising her. passed on to her which is that you need. to have a certain amount of cash around. on you if you're a woman and you go on a. date with a man you better have $200 in. your pocket so if that man acts up you. can go where you want to go there is an. an empowering element of this that he. taught her it's interesting that we're. here about this money Mr Wade is used to. women that uh as he told me one time the.

only thing a woman can do for him is. make him a sandwich we would have brutal. arguments about the fact that I am your. equal I don't need anything Miss Willis. also made it clear that you know in this. romantic relationship there was no. question that you know she wanted to be. treated as an equal and she in fact uh. called out Mr Wade for some uh sexist. ideas that he had which is why I was. give him his money back I don't need. anybody to foot my bills the only man.

who's ever foot my bills completely is. my daddy and when you heard this coming. from her at least when I heard it coming. from her you had this this sort of. coherent idea of why somebody like fonny. Willis would be so relying on cash and. it also served in a way to butress what. Nathan Wade had just said the fact that. you know she was a person who paid him. back in this way and you know listening.

to it I kind of went from a sense of you. know okay well this sounds bizarre that. you would just show up at your. boyfriend's house with like an Adidas. bag you know stuffed with with bills to. something that's more like well okay. this is this is plausible this is. something that's been passed down and. you know it's something that you could. maybe you know I can't verify it but it. just seems like something that would be. plausible in this moment when cash is. kind of on the way out for some people. but for some other people it it really. feels like a a kind of an empowering.

tool right and in the end she doesn't. give an inch on these questions of when. the relationship started and whether she. benefited from it that's right she stuck. to her guns and she also uh had a really. dramatic moment where she tried to. remind everyone who was following along. that she was not on trial so your office. objected to us getting um Delta records. for flights that you may have taken when. well no no no look I object to you.

getting records you've been intrusive. into people's personal lives you're. confused you think I'm on trial these. people are on trial for trying to steal. an election in 2020 I'm not on trial no. matter how hard you try to put me on. trial so my question she said it was the. people who tried to overturn the. election who were on trial and that was. one of the moments that really sort of. sent a a real kind of shock through. through the courtroom you have this.

melodrama this kind of footnote that's. now ballooned into its own story and it. was a very interesting moment of kind of. redirecting the flow of the conversation. back to very fundamental questions about. democracy and efforts to subvert it m. you can St you can step down you're done. for today you want me to leave the. courtroom uh or you can the council. table we we don't need you in the. witness box Richard by the end of this. testimony YY Wade Willis a pretty.

complicated portrait has emerged of this. relationship that's now at the center of. these questions of whether this case. involving democracy moves forward I mean. this one witness says the relationship. starts before Willis hired Wade but it's. just her word there's no hard evidence. and Wade and Willis under oath disagree. it becomes clear that Wade did pay for a. lot of travel for Willis and yet Willis. says she reimburse them but there's no. evidence that either of them can produce.

to verify that so there aren't really. smoking guns in either. direction yeah I I think that's right I. mean what we do know is that we're going. to have a lot more testimony we're going. to have more witnesses who will probably. be called but I I do think that this has. given Donald Trump and his allies the. ability to to create a kind of plume of.

suspicion that there were bad intentions. behind this case and I think we should. think about what the real practical. ramifications of that issue are and and. by an issue I mean a public relations. loss for the District Attorney's. Office it has a real material potential. material effect because the jury that. sits to decide whether or not Donald. Trump broke the law in Georgia will come.

from Fulton County and if they continue. to read headlines that say that. something is fishy about fonnie Willis. and her boyfriend or ex-boyfriend and. their travel you could potentially see a. greater possibility that at the very. least one of those 12 future jurors. decides that something is too fishy for. them to vote guilty and in that way this.

entire drama is extremely relevant no. matter what the judge rules in the. coming. [Music]. days in other words no matter what the. judge decides whether he keeps them on. the case or just qualifies Willis and. Wade something about this case in its. fundamental Mission has been altered. here and maybe weakened I think that's. possible and one of the things I find so.

remarkable is that we've all thought of. the Georgia case as one that really. couldn't be touched by Donald Trump if. he were to be reelected he couldn't. pardon himself he couldn't direct his. future attorney general to dismiss the. case and yet here we are with this. threat to the Georgia case that's coming. from a very different place right that's. coming from what some people would argue. would be a a lapse in.

judgment it's almost unfathomable to. imagine that a history could be bent by. something like that but but here we. are wellard thank you very much we. appreciate it thank you. Michael the hearing is scheduled to. resume this morning with fonnie Willis. expected to return to the. stand a ruling on whether she and Nathan.

Wade should be removed from the case is. expected in the next few. weeks we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. day a judge in New York has officially. scheduled the first criminal trial. against Trump to begin on March 25th.

ensuring that the former president will. face at least one jury before election. day that trial led by the Manhattan. district attorney will focus on. allegations that Trump falsified. business records during his 2016. presidential campaign in order to hide a. sexual relationship with an adult film. star. and police in Kansas Kanas City said. they believed that a dispute between.

teenagers was the cause of a mass. shooting at a Super Bowl victory. celebration that injured nearly two. dozen people and killed a 43-year-old. woman police identified that woman as. Elizabeth Galvin a local DJ whose son. was also shot in the leg during the. [Music]. gunfire.

today's episode was produced by Rob. zipco Sydney Harper and Alex Stern with. help from Michelle Banja it was edited. by Devin Taylor contains original music. by Dan Powell and Maran Lozano and was. engineered by Chris Wood our theme music. is by Jim brunberg and Ben lansburg of. wonderly special thanks to John ketchup. [Music].

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Michael Boro. see you on. [Music]. Monday.