An Armored Train and a Dangerous New Alliance

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernisi and this is the daily. [Music]. in a rare move this week the leader of. North Korea Kim Jong-un traveled to. Russia to meet with Russian President. Vladimir Putin. my colleague Julian Barnes on what. Russia wants from North Korea. how far it may go to get it and why the. consequence could be dangerous not just.

for the region but for the world. it's Thursday September 14th. [Music]. so Julian tell me about this visit by. the North Korean leader to Russia I mean. this is of course an extremely isolated. leader who almost never leaves North. Korea and here Vladimir Putin is giving. him an audience and a red carpet. treatment in Russia what's going on here.

so you're right Kim Jong-un almost never. leaves North Korea they don't have a lot. of allies he doesn't have to travel for. diplomatic meetings or the like in fact. he hasn't left the borders of North. Korea since the covid pandemic oh wow. but what we have here is that Kim. Jong-un. God on his armored train he does not fly. like his father and grandfather before. him he travels by train.

his Korean leader Kim Jong-un slowly. rolls towards Russia in soviet-era. armored train cars painted green it is. unusual and quite a spectacle it moves. very slowly and these are moving palaces. added to the hilt it was a days long. process out of North Korea he takes the. train from Pyongyang across the sliver. of border between Russia and North Korea. and travels to Russia's Far East.

cosmodrome this is the site where they. have Rockets missiles the sort of best. of Russian technology on display but Kim. Jong-un wasn't there just for a tour of. ballistic missiles he was not there just. for the lunch of Lincoln berries and. duck.

he was there to make a deal with. Vladimir Putin and it was a deal on. weapons. foreign. kind of says what Vladimir Putin wants. to hear that he's ready for a strategic. and tactical agreement a strategic and. tactical cooperation between the two. countries.

now we're still learning the details of. all that but what we know is that this. meeting is going to have. big implications for the war in Ukraine. and reverberations far beyond that. around the world. so what does Russia actually want from. North Korea I mean of course North Korea. is this lonely totalitarian state. obsessed with its own military but I.

don't think of it as the global. superpower military that Russia is so. what does it have to offer Russia yeah. you're right that North Korea isn't the. most sophisticated with its military. technology but what Russia wants isn't. The Cutting Edge technology what Russia. wants is something far simpler it needs. artillery shells artillery has become so. important in the Ukraine war it's really.

hard to oversell how important it is. these are the big guns right these are. the long guns that fire kind of large. shells downrange of the battlefield and. you know almost any war movie has the. sort of big guns firing at opposing. infantry right it's a staple of how we. conceive of big Wars right we're really. talking about the lowly humble shell.

like the thing that they're feeding into. these big guns the most basic element of. War that's right it's a giant bullet. right it's not a hyper Sonic missile. it's not a sophisticated drone it's a. giant bullet that has an explosive in it. and a fuse and it's fire down range and. almost every major battle in Ukraine has. involved artillery and as a result both.

sides are firing Millions upon millions. of artillery shells and they're starting. to run out we of course have talked on. the show about Ukraine's efforts to get. Military Support going around the world. and asking for military equipment and. supplies like ammunition but you know. Russia is a major military manufacturer. I don't think of Russia as running out. of something as simple as ammunition. well Russia they can make two million.

shells a year they're firing more than. 10 million shells a year and that's a. huge deficit wow that is a huge deficit. okay so what's the plan well one plan is. that Russia has huge stocks of artillery. shells that they've been making for. years and years and haven't had to fire. and they're stored in warehouses and. that's where they've been tapping their. supplies okay but Russia is not that.

great at storing their weapons look it. turns out ammunition needs to be. maintained you turn it around you. inspect it you make sure it's still good. Russia has a tendency of just shoving. their artillery in a warehouse and you. know forgetting it so like it gets stale. kinda like what happens is the fuses. deteriorate over time right and so the. older artillery shell is less deadly for.

the Ukrainian troops okay so basically. Russia has the goods but they're old and. kind of faster sell by date basically so. what are Russia's other options to get. shells and to keep this stockpile going. well they had to turn to the World. Market. from very early on during the war Russia. started to go to other countries looking. for military supplies but there's a real.

problem with that. Putin is looking for every conceivable. Lifeline right now. right at the start of the war the U.S. and Europe had agreed to sanctions and. Export controls to Halt the Russian. military production so they can't just. go to any country and buy military. equipment or even buy the parts for. military equipment they need to go to. countries that are aligned with their.

interests that are friendly to them a. U.S official says Russia has asked China. for support including military aid and. Equipment the most important of that. would be China China has the missiles. the artillery shells the drones that. Russia would need President Biden. warning China of serious consequences if. China were to get involved directly in. Ukraine. but China wasn't willing to sell that to.

Russia they did not want to risk the ire. of the rest of the world and possibly be. cut off from International Trade right. China has a lot to lose in that. department China has a lot to lose so. Russia had to turn to others Putin met. with Iran's president and its supreme. leader Ayatollah and they went to Iran. and Russia started buying drones from. Iran the state department says Iranian.

drones were used in strikes across the. country including the capital of Kiev. but it didn't solve the most urgent. problem which was a shortage of. artillery shells and so Russia then. turns to North Korea. but why North Korea well the Korean. Peninsula is the world's repository of. artillery shells remember North Korea. and South Korea are still technically at.

War there has been an uneasy arm assist. for. 70 plus years here but as a result both. North Korea and South Korea have huge. stockpiles of well-maintained artillery. shells the South Korean artillery shells. fit the big guns that U.S and NATO use. the North Korean artillery shells fit. the big guns that Russia uses so if.

you're Russia and you're wondering where. can I get more artillery shells. North Korea is the obvious answer. but the problem is Russia and North. Korea aren't particularly close. so Julian remind us what that. relationship has been over the past few. decades. well it's hard to find a country more. isolated on the planet than North Korea. I mean there has been some relations.

between Russia and North Korea but it's. been pretty uneasy you'll remember that. in the 1990s and 2000s Moscow went along. with the UN. sanctions on North Korea to try to stop. North Korea from developing its nuclear. program and so it's not like North Korea. looks at Moscow and thinks that they're. their great defender right you know. Moscow has been part of the.

International Community that's been. trying to constrain their quest for an. atomic weapon so despite their shared. past with Communism these countries. really haven't been allies much at all. in recent history. that's right it's really the war in. Ukraine that shifted things because all. of a sudden. Russia needed something from North Korea. and so a courtship of North Korea began.

and Julian what does that courtship look. like. well a year ago. Russia starts asking North Korea for. artillery and Rockets. but the U.S learns about this and the. U.S declassifies that information and. pushes it out the U.S is trying to stop. the deal by shining a light on it and it. did seem to work at least for a Time.

according to U.S intelligence the. shipments of artillery shells don't go. don't go in any sort of significant. numbers in any case. but Russia keeps pushing here Russia. really needs the artillery shells. so this past July Russia sends its. defense minister Sergey shoigu to visit. North Korea. and it was the first time since Soviet. times that a Russian defense minister.

had visited North Korea. [Applause]. and so he goes to join Kim Jong-un at. what North Korea calls a Victory Day. Parade. this is the annual military parade that. marks the Armistice between South Korea. and North Korea Victory Day in air. quotes. yes. [Applause]. and it was you know a big display there.

was a diocese you see Kim Jong-un. flanked by shoigu on one side and a. Chinese pilot Bureau member on the other. and they were saluting these. InterContinental missiles that are. banned by the U.N. it was a big display of friendship. between North Korea and China but most. importantly North Korea and Russia.

and behind the scenes what's happening. at this event is a negotiation between. Kim and shoigu a negotiation about the. next meeting Kim wants Vladimir Putin to. come to North Korea. Mr shoigu says that's not going to. happen but he makes a counteroffer. he offers to have Kim come and meet.

Putin in Russia. so that is what led to the meeting this. week that's right. it was those negotiations that set the. scene for this meeting. [Music]. we'll be right back. Julian do we have any details on exactly. what Putin and Kim Jong-un are.

discussing in Russia this week like what. are the specifics of a potential deal. well American officials tell us it'll be. a few days until we learn a lot of. details about what is agreed between the. two leaders. but the Contours of the talks we do. understand as we've discussed Russia. wants the artillery they have some need. for missiles. what North Korea wants is one thing that.

they always ask for which is food Aid. food Aid because North Korea has a. really really terrible economy and. sometimes doesn't have the food to feed. its people right the North Korean. economy is so isolated that its people. are malnourished and it does not have. enough food so asking for food Aid is. always critical. but in this case there's something even. more important that North Korea wants. something that I would describe as.

Russia's crown jewels okay crown jewels. I'm assuming this has to do with the. thing that Russia is very good at which. is nuclear weapons yes. now North Korea as far as we understand. is not directly asking for nuclear. technology but what they want is. ballistic missile technology and nuclear. powered submarine technology all of. these are Platforms in which nuclear.

weapons can be placed and which make. them harder to detect and harder to stop. assumption then that North Korea already. has the technology to build nuclear. weapons but what they actually need are. the delivery devices yeah I mean. remember North Korea has several dozen. nuclear weapons right. but they've been struggling with two. things they've been struggling with. miniaturizing these devices and the.

delivery device making a missile that's. reliable enough to reach any point they. want to hit and Julian what's the idea. of miniaturizing well think of the movie. Oppenheimer right where the United. States is building the original atomic. bomb right that thing was massive right. huge huge they they had to push it out. the back of an airplane right well. modern nuclear weapons are put on top of. missiles that are launched from.

submarines or ground-based launchers. but to do that you need a much smaller. bomb right and if you could only shrink. it down so much you need a much more. reliable and Powerful missile to take it. where it needs to go got it officials. have told us that nuclear technology is. not on the table that is not being. discussed Russia has no intention of. giving North Korea the plans to make a. nuclear bomb or miniaturize their.

nuclear bomb but what is on the table is. this missile technology and that's very. important the North Korean track record. on Missile launches is mixed some of. their missiles misfire some of their. missiles do not reach their targets. Russian missiles are reliable and if. Moscow can teach them how to make a. better missile that is something North. Korea wants but. imagine there are risks here for Russia.

right I mean they share a border with. North Korea like this would leave them. with a fairly unstable nuclear neighbor. historically Russia hasn't wanted. unstable countries to have nuclear. weapons. I mean they were part of the. international effort to stop Iran's. nuclear program they've participated in. sanctions against North Korea both. countries in its backyard effectively. yes and North Korea is a proliferator.

they could turn around and sell this to. another country and this is not. something that Russia wants North Korea. selling if anyone's going to sell it. Russia wants to sell it right so it. would be a real show of desperation if. Russia actually went for this. the more technology Russia gives North. Korea the more desperate they are. in some ways this meeting is a measure. of what Russia thinks where they are in. the war in Ukraine how much are they.

willing to give to North Korea how much. do they need these artillery shells. and Putin did say something this week. that suggested the crown jewels were on. the table. while waiting for Kim at the cosmodrome. he was asked about this arms agreement. and will Moscow help North Korea with. satellites and Rocket technology and. Putin responds that's why we came here. and we're not going to know for some.

days what the agreement is and we may. not know for some months whether the. agreement is consummated and how much. technology Russia does send but these. early indications are that a deal is on. the table and both sides want to reach. an agreement. can we pause we pause for a moment on. the potential of exactly that happening. like what you're describing as a. scenario here where if this deal were to. happen North Korean Rockets which.

usually just as we said flame out. somewhere off the coast could suddenly. reach New York City. that would be incredibly destabilizing. we would have a situation where once. again. a crisis with North Korea takes Central. stage and this is not something the. Biden Administration wants right now. right the Biden Administration is. focused on helping Ukraine in its war.

against Russia the Biden Administration. is focused on building allies against a. more militaristic China in the Pacific. they don't want to be focused on North. Korea and its nuclear program. but a technology shift from Russia to. North Korea moves out from the back. burner to the front right this would. really bring to the fore North Korea AS. Global Chaos Agent enforce the United.

States to have to deal with that fact. that's right this could put North Korea. in a stronger position. North Korea has been crippled by. sanctions for decades without much. leverage and what it wants is to come. back to the table in a better position. and a better position to normalize. diplomatic relations to normalize its. economy and to keep its nuclear weapons. and so if these negotiations with Russia.

make North Korea's nuclear program. stronger more viable more of a threat. than this deal doesn't just have. implications for the war in Ukraine it. could really change North Korea's. standing on the world stage which would. be a real change in how the rest of the. world thinks of North Korea right has. dealt with North Korea I mean it had. been. ostracized not even close to the table.

here they would be at the table. and look this deal could really deepen. the fault lines that already exist. across the Pacific. we have stronger relations between South. Korea and Japan that's partially about. arising China but that's also about a. North Korea threat. and so this shows you that the European. theater and the Pacific Theater are. intertwined.

and it really makes the whole situation. far more fraught this meeting is in a. way a kind of window onto the profound. reordering of relations throughout the. world really that the Ukraine war has. wrought. it is amazing how starkly the war in. Ukraine has made this line across the. world has pushed China and Russia closer.

together. but has also pushed America and its. allies closer together. and that can be quite dangerous. if we have a world where we have Russia. China North Korea Iran on one side and. we have NATO Japan South Korea on the. other. that's a different world than the one. that we've known for the last few.

decades and it can make some things more. complicated. and this is something my colleagues and. I have been grappling with. four months. what. has this war in Ukraine what has the new. alliances in Asia wrought is this a new. Cold War. and to me. it's increasingly looking like that is.

what we have. and so this story began with something. simple like a building block of War this. story began with a humble artillery. shell. [Music]. but it ends. with something that looks much bigger. Julian thank you thank you.

we'll be right back. here's what else you should know today I. think some of the people that are coming. along next want to have a say in how we. we leave the Earth and how they prepare. for the the future they're going to live. in. on Wednesday Republican senator Mitt. Romney of Utah whose moderate positions. and vocal opposition to Donald Trump.

left him increasingly out of step with. his party's base said he would not seek. re-election in 2024. you know I uh I. considered my age and the fact that at. the end of the second term I would be in. my mid-80s and I think it's time for. guys like me to get out of the way and. have people the Next Generation step. forward. speaking to reporters about his decision. Romney the Republican Presidential. nominee in 2012. appeared to encourage.

the two leading candidates in the next. presidential race to follow his lead oh. I think it would be a great thing if. both President Biden and former. president Trump were to stand aside and. let their respective party pick someone. in the Next Generation President Biden. when he was running said he was a. transitional figure the Next Generation. Well time to transition. and the leader of the United Auto. Workers said that his members were. prepared for a strike against the three. Detroit automakers Sean Fain president.

of the UAW said the initial strike would. be limited to a small number of. factories but that it would expand if. the talks remain bogged down past their. September 14th deadline. Fane said the strikes locations would be. communicated to members on Thursday. night ahead of a Friday walkout. finally in Libya authorities say the. death toll in the catastrophic flood. currently topping 5000 could reach as. high as 20 000 people as rescue efforts.

continued two dams have already. collapsed and local officials now say. that a third Dam located closer to the. capital Benghazi is now on the brink of. collapse. today's episode was produced by Rob. zipko Shannon Lynn summer to mod Mary. Wilson and Jessica Chomp it was edited. by MJ Davis Lynn with help from Michael. Benoit fact checked by Nicole pasulka.

contains original music by Will Reed. Marion Lozano and Rowan nimisto and was. engineered by Alyssa Moxley. our theme music is by Jim brunberg and. Ben lansberg of wonderly. that's it for the Daily I'm Sabrina. tavernice see you tomorrow. [Music].