Abortion United Evangelicals and Republicans. Now That Alliance Is Fraying.

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily the Southern Baptist convention. the largest Protestant denomination in. the country voted at its annual. Gathering last week to condemn IVF. fertility. treatments today my colleague Ruth. Graham on the story behind the vote the.

Republicans scramble it prompted and. what it could eventually mean for the. rest of the. [Music]. country it's Monday June. 17th so Ruth you write about religion. for the times and you were covering the. big annual meeting of Southern Baptists. last week and they made a pretty big. decision tell us about. it the Southern Baptist convention it's. the biggest Protestant denomination in. the United States they have almost 15.

million members more than 45,000. churches it's a huge group and they also. consider these resolutions on what they. see as important cultural and political. topics and those discussions are really. important because you know Southern. Baptists know their political power and. they are basically a barometer of of. Evangelical sentiment in the US you know. what they say kind of indicates what the. typical Evangelical cares about in any. given moment and fund for report ERS.

they all meet once a year in this giant. Gathering that any church can send. delegates to the delegates are called. Messengers so this year that meeting was. in Indianapolis there were almost 11,000. Messengers there in the convention. center and one of the important. political topics they took on this year. was something they have never discussed. as a full body before and that's the. ethics of invitro. fertilization okay so this very. important Conference of Southern. Baptists takes up IVF and words you know.

the medical procedure that allows people. to get pregnant through Fertilization in. a lab so what do they. say so a lot of Southern Baptists. historically have not taken issue with. IVF per se at all they view it as a. technology used to create life you know. it's used by families who desperately. want to be parents and they view that as. a positive thing but the procedure does. involve typically the production of more. embryos than will be used used by the.

couple that created them um and those. embryos end up sometimes discarded. sometimes Frozen indefinitely sometimes. donated but not sort of used in the way. that they were originally created to be. used so some Southern Baptists do take. issue with discarding those excess. embryos and the reason is they say life. begins at conception this sort of a core. anti-abortion belief the moment that the. sperm meets the egg that is the stuff of. life there's a verse in song Ms you.

created my inmost being you knit me. together in my mother's womb and you'll. hear that cited in Christian. anti-abortion spaces a lot as evidence. that God cares about and Views as fully. human human beings at the very moment of. conception and that would include these. Frozen. embryos right if you truly believe that. life begins at conception you probably. would not agree to abortion at any stage. of gestation and that same logic would. apply IVF so when this issue gets raised.

at the conference what happens what are. people saying so there's a resolution. that comes to the floor resolutions in. southern baptist language are. non-binding this would not be a ban it's. just a statement of concern that's meant. to summarize Southern Baptist opinion on. this particular topic so the language. that's proposed calls on Southern. Baptist to reaffirm the value of human. life and then it Narrows in on human. life in an embryonic stage and it urges.

them to just use reproductive. Technologies fertility treatments that. are consistent with that view of human. life what does that mean they're. actually walking a pretty fine line here. they stop short of saying that a. southern baptist should never use IVF. under any circumstances they're calling. attention to these excess embryos and. saying that you know Baptists really. should only use reproductive. technology with attention to life at. this embryonic stage and the resolution.

also goes so far as to ask Baptists to. call on their governments to restrain. these kind of technologies that violate. the Dignity of you know as they put it. quote Frozen embryonic human beings H so. they're also actually asking people to. pressure their governments to respect. this position basically that's right. it's light on specifics but that's the. suggestion but Ruth why did they decide. to raise this issue now I mean IVF. obviously has been around for a long.

time right so back in February there was. a case that reached the Alabama Supreme. Court that had started when a group of. families in the state filed this. wrongful death claim over a mistake at a. fertility clinic where their Frozen. embryos were accidentally destroyed they. Sue and the state supreme court ends up. ruling not only in their favor but says. really clearly that Frozen embryos. should be considered children so the the. chief tce writes even before birth all.

human beings have the image of God and. their lives cannot be destroyed without. effacing his glory so really putting out. this religious argument for human life. in embryonic form so that case lands. like a. bomb the stunning decision from. Alabama's Supreme Court has enormous and. immediate consequences for fertility. care and it really caught a lot of. people off guard you know all along the. Spectrum a third Fertility clinic in. Alabama has shut down after the state.

Supreme Court ruled embryos are children. the court offered no clear road map for. what is and isn't legal and it just. places this question about the ethics. and the legal aspects and all of this it. just puts IVF into the national. conversation we're concerned that with. the new ruling we may have to limit. fertilization of eggs which will limit. success of treatment limit efficiency. increased cost and of course risk to. patients it's a stress process already.

and I don't need the added stress of and. no other woman does of whether or not. this might be moral to go through to. have children when this is my only path. and there's this really strong backlash. to the idea that embryos should be. protected with the force of the law as. full human beings because IVF is broadly. popular including among many Republican. voters Alabama House of Representatives. and the Senate have passed a law that. restores access to in rro fertilization.

doctors at clinics have told ABC News. the new language will give them enough. reassurance to resume IVF without facing. legal. [Music]. risks ultimately the state legislature. the Republican Governor you know work. really quickly to reinstate it in the. state but it opens up this new. conversation among conservative. evangelicals who are broadly. anti-abortion and they're starting to. think think you know should we think.

about this IVF conversation in the same. way that we've thought about abortion. should we be pushing on this more so. most of the country takes the lesson. from the Alabama case that IVF is not. something to be interfered with but for. some in the Evangelical Community they. take the opposite lesson it sounds like. that's right for some evangelicals this. feels like the perfect moment to bring. IVF into the abortion conversation and. start to turn the tide again it one of.

these people is an neths in Kentucky his. name is Andrew Walker he works at. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. it's a major Southern Baptist seminary. in Louisville and he's been wanting to. bring IVF into sort of the mainstream. Southern Baptist Consciousness for a. while he first started writing about it. about five years ago he actually. published an essay in a you know sort of. mainstream Evangelical publication about. it got a lot of push back never felt it. was the right moment to bring a. resolution to the meeting but he's had.

this tucked in the back of his mind. because he has this pretty clear. conviction that IVF does not comport. with Christian anti-abortion values so. when the Alabama ruling happens and the. backlash and the broader. conversation Andrew Walker thinks you. know this is the moment so he calls his. friend and Mentor Dr Al Mohler who's the. president of the Seminary where they. both work and he says let's do it let's. start crafting a resolution for the. meeting this year and we'll see if it.

gets forward we'll see if it gets. discussed we'll see if it gets approved. but we've got a strike while the iron is. hot here and did Baptist like Walker. understand that a resolution like this. would have potentially quite bad. implications for mainstream Republican. politicians like wasn't that the lesson. of Alabama yes and I I talked with both. Dr Walker and Dr mhler about this and. they both said they were completely. aware of that they didn't love it um but. they both felt that that was not their.

highest priority that was not their. highest responsibility and if anything. you know Dr Mohler said this in. particular he wanted to nudge. Republicans on the issue he actually. said he wanted to do more than nudge. nudge Republicans he wanted to call them. out and so this would be a really. high-profile way to show to Republicans. look we've got thousands of mainstream. Southern Baptists in a room here who are. all expressing Collective alarm and. opposition to IVF as it's commonly. practiced okay so Baptist leaders.

nevertheless put this proposal to a vote. on the floor tell us about how that went. when they put this proposal in front of. thousands of other. evangelicals it was really. dramatic we're in this cavernous. convention hall where over the course of. the last few days there's been singing. of hymns people have heard sermons. there's been prayers they've sent. missionaries out you know they've been. sort of together in the work of making. their convention what they want it to be.

microphone 3A would you give us your. name your church and proceed with your. uh. discussion yes uh Daniel Taylor. messenger and then there's this. incredibly dramatic discussion and. debate about the ethics of something so. personal thank you Mr President I Rise. to speak in favor of this amendment out. of both a heart for The Unborn and for. those stricken with infertility anyone. is allowed to come to the microphone. under Southern Baptist rule. and you had two men come to the.

microphone to share really personal. stories for my friends the initial steps. of IVF yielded six viable embryos four. of the embryos were implanted and two. were frozen for a time only one survived. to term their son and my godson because. of him I thank God for IVF one has a. godson born via IVF I have a son because. of IVF.

I have another son 20 weeks old in my. wife's womb because of IVF the other has. one child and his wife pregnant with a. second via IVF I am for the sancy of. life and for the sancy of embryos I am. against the idea that this technology is. so wicked that it cannot be employed and. both spoke about just loving these. children and seeing the technology as a. blessing from God.

um I thank the authors of the resolution. and the committee for the opportunity. for the SBC to be a voice of biblical. truth and Clarity in this pressing. cultural issue a woman came to the. microphone sort of on the other side in. addition to my living children I am the. mother of four babies that I never got. to hold two of those babies we adopted. as embryos nothing in the process of IVF. upholds the sanctity of Life there is no. way to the describe the treatment of.

embryos at any point in the IVF process. as ethical or dignified the to share. that she had participated in embryo. adoption meaning that she had another. family's embryos implanted in her womb. to try to bring those pregnancies to. fruition and in this case she miscarried. both times but she had done that out of. a sense of really moral obligation to. these embryos as human life and it was. quiet I mean people are really listening. to these really personal stories and.

wrestling with them this is personal for. a lot of people in that room but at the. end of all this it's time to vote on the. resolution so in the end the language. has been really carefully crafted to. kind of bring Southern Baptist Along on. this argument so it affirms that God. loves all children no matter the. circumstances of their conception it. expresses empathy for couples trying to. conceive. it says it's a good and positive thing.

to want to have children to expand your. family and then it arrives at this point. of saying that IVF as it's commonly. practiced is not an ethical option for. southern Baptists in most circumstances. so this resolution comes to a vote to. the thousands of people in that room. they're all sitting in folding chairs. they raise their little orange ballots. in favor or against. and the resolution passes.

overwhelmingly so this resolution. ultimately passes but how important is. it really if it's just you know an. expression of sentiment it's not. actually a directive to do something. it's hugely significant this is the. first major public statement that this. group of influential evangelicals. frankly influential Republican voters. have made on this issue and it really. sets them up on a collision course with.

mainstream. [Music]. Republicans we'll be right. [Music]. back so Ruth you said that this vote. really sets evangelicals on a collision. course with mainstream Republicans what. did that look. like so mainstream Republicans in the. wake of the Alabama rule in have really. circled the wagons to try to show that.

they are not only totally comfortable. with IVF but are going to go to Great. Lengths to preserve it and they see it. as pro- family they know that's how most. of their constituents view it they want. to really show that they see that as. totally separate from the conversation. about abortion and that they are going. to be the ones to preserve access to. IVF and so on the very same day this. happened in Indianapolis in Washington I. want to yield to the senator from. Alabama Senator Britt thank you so.

much Senator Katie Britt of Alabama. she's an Evangelical chrisan she gets up. on the floor of the Senate and gives. this impassioned speech supporting IVF I. was proud to join my colleague from. Texas and introducing the IVF protection. act I'm she with Senator Ted Cruz of. Texas has put forward this bill that. they say is intended to protect IVF. access by blocking Medicaid funding to. states that ban it outright Democrats. say that actually would not have done.

anything to fix the problem and there. are these kind of jockeying bills but. still she gets up on the senate floor. okay as a mom I know firsthand that. there's no Greater Joy in this life than. that of being a mother IVF helps. aspiring parents you know as a mom as. she puts it in defense of IVF IVF access. is fundamentally Pro family she's. wearing this really prominent cross. necklace and you know she talks about.

how supporting IVF is pro- family that. that's the pro- family point of view we. all have loved ones whether they're. family members or friends who have. become parents or grandparents through. IVF and she puts out a statement the. same day with Senator Cruz and it's. signed by all of her Republican. colleagues including Josh Holly Marsha. Blackburn you know every conservative. across the Spectrum in the Senate signs. onto this report for IVF so even the.

most conservative republicans in. Congress are coming out with this. position that's really at odds with. evangelicals that's right IVF is hugely. popular fertility treatments are widely. used you know including by evangelicals. most people don't even think negatively. about this stuff let alone want to ban. it so it's a real dilemma for. Republicans to watch evangelicals. potentially turn in this direction so. there's pressure from the Southern. Baptist convention on Main Street. Republicans which I have to imagine is.

making Democrats pretty happy I mean I. saw President Biden out there with a. fundraising email the day that the. southern baptist voted that's right I. mean Democrats are really leaning into. Reproductive Rights right now they're. putting abortion measures on ballots in. November they know that's going to. attract their voters it's going to. attract Independence they're they're. pointing out these restrictions they're. talking about this stuff and the vote. last week from the southern baptist is. another suggestion that there's this. movement out there that doesn't just. want to regulate at 15 weeks not just at.

12 weeks not just at 6 weeks but you. know all the way down to the embryo in. the lab so I think Democrats see an. opportunity here to exploit this growing. divide between evangelicals and. Republicans at least on this issue and. this is all going to be all the more. Salient ahead of a very important. presidential election I mean we're. really hurdling down the tracks toward a. big decision point for people yeah. that's exactly right the Republican. party and American evangelicals have.

been in lock step really since the. 1970s and you know now for Republicans. there's this question about whether or. not it's still politically advantageous. for them to follow where the. anti-abortion movement is going on this. stuff because they're pushing into. places that are really deeply unpopular. among the American population overall. and you know the anti-abortion movement. itself at this point is pretty divided. on where it's going to go next so you.

know we saw the Supreme Court last week. on Thursday you know they maintained. access to the abortion pill you know. there were divisions even within the. anti-abortion movement over whether or. not to bring that case forward some. within that movement were skeptical of. it so you're seeing sort of confusion. and disagreement even internally on. where to go after the overturning of. roie Wade Ruth what about the broader. population of Evangelical Christians you. know there were 10,000 people at the. southern baptist conference voting on.

this but what about everybody else where. are they on. this I think that's still a really open. question at this point you know I talked. to this young Pastor from Georgia at the. meeting who was saying you know I don't. want to go back to the people in my. church and tell them that the creation. of their children and grandchildren. comes from these immoral means and the. language of the resolution was careful.

around that but it's still going to be. really hard to get that across and to. just translate it for the people in the. pews if you're an ordinary Southern. Baptist kind of reading the headlines. and even reading the text of this it's a. tough one at the same time you know. talking with Andrew Walker about this. who co-wrote the resolution you know he. acknowledged that a lot of Southern. Baptists have not really thought about. this stuff in terms of ethics and. morality and connected it to the. abortion question but when he has. one-on-one conversations with people.

about the topic and sort of walks them. through basically the logic of the. resolution you know he said almost. everyone comes away from those. conversations with at the very least a. sort of skepticism and you know a level. of critical thinking around fertility. treatments that they didn't come in with. and that suggests that there's at least. sort of an openness to thinking. differently about fertility treatment. and you know the reason all this matters.

is obviously evangelicals are this. hugely influential voting block they're. used to having the power to turn their. theological beliefs into policy and when. they come together you get this. political force you know the same. political force that worked for decades. over a lot of obstacles and was. eventually successful in overturning. roie Wade. now IVF is different than abortion IVF.

is extremely popular including at this. point among Evangelical. Christians but if we find out that. evangelicals are persuadable on. IVF you know it doesn't just have. implications for their personal. spiritual. lives if this is the beginning of a. moral Awakening on. IVF and that's a big if it would have. real implications for the rest of the.

country Ruth thank you thank. [Music]. you we'll be right. back here's what else you need to know. today on Friday the Supreme Court struck. down a ban on bump stocks which enable.

semi-automatic rifles to fire at speeds. rivaling those of machine guns the. decision by a vote of 6 to3 split along. ideological lines had the effect of. erasing one of the government's rare. firearm regulations that came from a. mass shooting justi as Clarence Thomas. writing for the majority said that the. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco firearms and. explosives had exceeded its power when. it prohibited the device by issuing a.

rule that classified bum stocks as. machine. guns. and tens of thousands of demonstrators. crowded on the streets in France on. Saturday to denounce the rise of the. country's far right as the nation. prepared to vote in snap elections set. to take place later this. month French president Emanuel macron. shocked the country last week by.

announcing that he was dissolving the. lower house of parliament after his. party was clobbered by farri opponents. in a vote to seat the next European. Parliament critics including some in. macron's own party warned that the. president's move to call Snap elections. opened the door to empowering the far. right in France for the first time since. World War. [Music]. II today's episode was produced uced by. Rob zipco Sydney Harper Stella tan AA.

chatra and Michelle Banja it was edited. by Mark George and Lisa Chow contains. original music by Dan Powell and Marian. Lozano and was engineered by Alyssa. Moxley our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanser of wonderly. [Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina.

Tavern see you tomorrow. [Music].