A Trump Dissenter Fights for His Political Life

From New York Times, I'm Michael. Barbaro. This is The Daily. You know what the name is? He is the worst person. His name is. What the hell? How did he ever end up in. Kentucky? His name is In Kentucky on. Tuesday, amid his own record low. approval ratings, >> [music]. >> President Trump is asking Republican. primary voters to reject a Republican. [music] congressman that they've elected. seven times before. His name is Thomas.

Massie. >> [cheering]. >> Representative Thomas Massie. Massie is. a complete and total disaster as a. congressman and frankly as a human. being. A fiercely proud conservative who. has broken with Trump on just a handful. of votes. >> [music]. >> We got to get rid of this loser. This guy is bad. He's disloyal to the. Republican Party. He's disloyal to the people of Kentucky. and most importantly he is disloyal to.

the United States of America. And he's got to be voted out of office. as soon as possible. Instead, Trump wants Kentucky. Republicans to elect his hand-picked. challenger, Ed Gerhardt, in what has. become the most expensive House primary. [music] in American history. On the. other hand, Ed Gerhardt. has my complete and total endorsement. He's a true American hero and he's a.

great patriot. >> [music]. >> Today, Times political correspondent Robert. Draper and Daily producer Kaylee O'Keefe. traveled to Kentucky [music]. to find out whether a popular. congressman. can still dissent from an increasingly. unpopular [music]. president. It's Tuesday, May 19th.

>> Robert, welcome back to The Daily. Thanks for having me back. Anytime. We have established. quite clearly on the show that President. Trump has decided to use these midterm. primary elections to try to take out his. rivals within the Republican Party and. impose as much discipline on the party. as humanly possible. And so far, he's. largely succeeded in that goal taking. out Republicans who fought him in.

Indiana and just a few days ago in. Louisiana. And there's one last revenge race that. remains and in your capacity as a. chronicler of the Republican Party and. the fights within it, you decided that. that race was the most important or at. least the most interesting, which is why. I'm talking to you. from. the place where that race is about to. occur, Kentucky. Why did you decide that that primary was. so important? Largely because Thomas. Massie, the seven-term incumbent of.

Kentucky's fourth congressional. district, has been more defiant pretty. much than. all the other Republicans put together. Repeatedly, Massie has defied Trump's. wishes and has seemed cheerfully. uncaring about what Trump wants him to. do. Right. There's nothing nuanced or. hedging about his brand of. I'm doing my own thing here. Not in the least, no. And as a result of this, Trump has.

endorsed an opponent against him and is. encouraging. big Republican donors to back that. opponent. And tell us more about that. opponent. Sure. Uh. the man that Trump has handpicked to. oppose Thomas Massie is Ed Gallion, a. dairy farmer, Navy SEAL, and Trump. stalwart who has pledged to stand. alongside Trump and help get his agenda.

passed. This is a familiar landscape for. Massie. He's been through this before. In 2018, Trump wanted Massie taken down, and it didn't bear any fruit. But this. time, things are a great deal closer, where Massie has comfortably won his. primaries, sometimes with 81% of the. vote. This time around, the polls. suggest that the two candidates are dead. even. And what's so interesting to me. about this primary is that if ever there.

was a moment where somebody might defy. political gravity. and survive this routine onslaught from. Trump when he thinks you've dissented. too much, it might be Massie. in this moment because of the economy. we're in, with the inflation we have, and the unpopularity of the war that the. president has started. Perhaps, if ever. there was a moment for someone to. stand up to Trump and actually survive. the repercussions, it might be this.

moment. If, in fact, Gallrein does win, then this will suggest, among other. things, that Trump's stranglehold over. the Republican Party remains pretty much. absolute. If, on the other hand, Massie. prevails, lives to fight another day, then it may well suggest that at a time. when Trump has exerted so much in an. effort to take down a candidate, but has. failed to do so, that perhaps Trump's. grip is not what it once was, and may,

in turn, embolden not just Massie, but. others like him to challenge a a. president whose unfavorables are on the. rise. Well, Robert, remind us how. Representative Massie came to be so. defiant when it comes to Trump, and why. the president finds him to be so. intolerable. I think that it's in keeping with. the brand that Massie has held up from. the outset of his political career as.

this individualist, a confirmed. eccentric, a kind of fiscal absolutist, a person who is for individual rights. that he would hold the line on things. like no foreign aid and and that. includes no carve out exemption for. Israel. Which almost all the rest of. Republicans would find a carve out for. Yeah, that's exactly right. And so. Massie has been viewed really. as a sort of darling within certain. elements of the Republican Party for.

being a purist, for basically saying. when I say no increase in spending, I. mean no increase in spending for. anybody, including our military, including our allies in the Middle East. such as Israel. He's opposed Trump's intervention in. both Venezuela and Iran, saying they. betray the idea of America first. And so he's gotten by on that for some. time and he doesn't mind being a lone. wolf, you know, tends to sit by himself. in the House chamber, you know, is sort. of this off-the-grid cow farmer who.

drinks raw milk and and so there is a. kind of Paul Bunyan aspect to him. Right. And of all the ways that Massie, the maverick, the raw milk drinker, decided to go against the president, I. think it's safe to say that the one he's. going to be best known for and the one. that is probably the most personally. upsetting to President Trump is. the way he decided to fight the. president on Jeffrey Epstein. That's right. And this has been, I.

think, particularly vexing for Trump. because he was never wholeheartedly for. the release of the Epstein files, but. his electoral base certainly was. Right. >> And Massie took those desires literally. and became the champion of releasing the. files. And and at a time when Speaker. Mike Johnson was being very very. differential to Trump. If Trump doesn't. want them released, that's fine. We'll. recess the Congress rather than allow.

for a vote on the subject. Massie. remained insistent, began to work with a. coalition that included the Democrat Ro. Khanna, as well as a handful of other. Republicans that all happened to be. women, and convened hearings, held press. conferences with some of the women who. were survivors of Epstein, and and. really became the public face of it. Massie's determination was so great that. Trump ultimately had to read the tea.

leaves and throw his own reluctant. support behind the legislation, the. Epstein Files Transparency Act, that in. turn forced the Department of Justice to. release those files. That was Massie and. Ro Khanna's legislation. Trump was. against it, then he was for it. But that. Trump essentially had to declare defeat. was a moment that he clearly did not. forget nor forgive Massie for. So you go to Kentucky to try to figure. out what that version of being a.

maverick within Donald Trump's. Republican Party looks like to. Republican primary voters who are being. told by the president to turn out. Congressman Massie. That's right. And I did so because it's. really difficult to obtain ground truth. in any congressional primary from behind. one's desk in Washington, D.C. But. particularly it's a a complicated. endeavor here because this is Trump.

country, after all. These are people who. really, really love the president. And. the idea of having a maverick. congressman who they also like a great. deal, but who is making the president. from time to time look bad is not. generally speaking what voters have in. mind. And it's the voters who now are. faced with a choice. >> Right. Their party leader has said, "I. want you to vote against Massie. I want. you to vote for Ed Gallrein." And now.

the question is how important is that. dictate from a president they so admire? So as the press is getting set up, this. is a treat for all of us here in Boone. County to have The press over here is. waiting to ask. So about a week before the primary, Kaitlyn O'Keefe and I went to a Massie. event in Boone County in the town of. Burlington. This is the northern part of. the district. We welcome Mr. Massie to. Burlington. >> [applause].

>> It was an extremely well-attended event. in the courthouse standing room only. We'll take questions. We have a. microphone set up here. How much time do we have? At least 150 or so folks there. I want. to start out by saying telling you what. I have got done in the last 6 months of. life. Okay. And Massie began it with a. presentation of a sort of his. affirmative version of why a person. should vote for him. First of all, I got.

a bill passed in that has caused Prince. Andrew to no longer be a prince. The. British ambassador is no longer the. ambassador [clears throat] to the United. States. And the CEO of the World. Economic Forum, that guy had to resign. because of the Epstein files. transparency. >> [applause]. >> He [cheering]. very quickly moved into his advocacy of. the release of the Epstein files. And he. emphasized that while he is a. tried-and-true Republican who has voted.

with the Republicans 91% of the time. That those areas in which he has. distanced himself or opposed Republican. legislative matters, he makes no. apologies for. If you're covering up for. pedophiles, if you're trying to spy on. Americans without a warrant, if you're. bankrupting this country, then I am not. voting for that. And so there are a few. times I've had to stand up and that's. why I'm in a race here where it's the. most expensive race in a Republican. primary in the country. It's the most.

expensive race in the history of. Kentucky for a congressional race. Massie made a point also of talking. about his opponent, Ed Gallion. Uh I. respect that my opponent has military. service, but I've seen some congressmen. get this wrong when they get elected. They get to Washington, D.C. and they. ask, "Who do I report to? Do I report to the speaker? Do I report. to the president now?" He said that that. Gallion is essentially a rubber stamp. for President Trump. And if that's what.

people want, an unflagging supporter who. will do whatever Trump wants, then fine, but that's not who Massie ever was or. ever will be. Well, when you're in the. legislative branch, you don't report to. the executive branch. I report to. 750,000 of you. I'm a direct report to. you here in Kentucky. You are my bosses. >> [applause]. >> And he spoke probably for about 15. minutes or so.

I'll take questions from anybody that. wants to ask one. And then he immediately opened it up to. the audience. You're not just supported. here in Kentucky, you are supported in the United States. of America. And what kind of a reception does Massie. get there? Well, many of the comments. and questions came from people who are. really adoring of Massie. You know, these were people who were really. applauding his principles and are very. much in lockstep and appreciative of his. independence. But people complain that. we send politicians to Washington.

and they're not principled. You stand for your principles. And that's gold to me. >> [applause]. >> Then came a few audience members who. were a little more skeptical. I was in Massey. Elizabeth Smith, Union, Kentucky. We've met. One of them was a. woman named Elizabeth Smith. Um. I've got to say for the first time in. this election season,

I have been on the fence. Who said quite. plainly, "I'm not sure who to vote for.". I. support the president more than any. other time ever in my life. And I truly believe that President Trump. is really working tirelessly and. tirelessly every day for the American. people. She had supported Massie in the past, but. really was an unswerving devotee of. President Trump. And people have been.

saying all these awful things that oh, you don't support Trump and you don't. this. Please. give me a reason to vote for you this. time. Okay. And so Elizabeth Smith. basically asked Massie, "Make the case. for why I should vote for you when Trump. wants me to vote the other way." She's. basically saying, "Help me reconcile a. dynamic of me liking you and me liking. Trump." That's right. I'm First of all, I'm not running against Donald Trump.

Massie began his reply by reminding Ms. Smith that President Trump is not on the. ballot. I truly do have respect for his. effort and the job he's trying to do. But if I win this race, I guarantee you. he will come right back around and I. don't And when he defies the president, it isn't for defiance's sake, but. instead to uphold the kind of America. first principles that Trump himself ran. on.

But towards the very end of the Q&A. session, another gentleman stood up. who represented an altogether different. point of view from the ones we'd been. hearing. As I see it, the big picture is. that of all the things going on in the. nation, Iran, the economy, politics, DEI, wokeness, crazy things. The one. person in the whole United States, maybe. the world, that understands everything, has input on everything, is Donald. Trump. He gets more information, more meetings,

more everything, and knows more about. all of this than probably J.D. Vance or. anybody in the Congress, anywhere. He. does. And I often The man's basic point. was the president knows more than you. do, so why aren't you deferring to this. man's obvious superiority in the. knowledge and intelligence that he has. >> Things like that. There were four or. five bills that you voted no on that. were really important to me, representing me, and you voted no on. those, and I was really furious. I. thought, you've got to be kidding. He.

said that, "Look, you turned on Trump. Trump is my guy." And I voted for you. You've You've run seven times, right? First six times I voted for you cuz I. wanted to. Seventh time because you. didn't have anybody primary you. This. time you got somebody running against. you. Yes, that is the thing. I really. don't know a whole lot about the guy, but Trump has endorsed him, and that. means to me that he will help Trump pass. the things that I want done, okay? That. you aren't doing. And some of these This. exchange lasted for a full 14 minutes.

Wow, it's amazing. I mean, it was really. long, and at times kind of boring. Certain people in the audience got up. and left, but Massie stood there very. patiently, letting the guy have his say, and occasionally interrupting him not. with his own statements, but with. questions posed kind of Socratically. You're aware, aren't you, that I'm the. one who got the Epstein files released. and that Trump considered this a. borderline act of treason.

What do you think he learned about the. Epstein files that caused him to do a. 180 that makes him smarter than the. people in this room? They should have been hidden. I. I agree with pursuing the Epstein files. I want to release too. But to me, he said it was a hostile act. for me to do that. I don't know, but to me, he knows the big picture. There might be.

things that you don't understand why he. said that that he's not even revealing. to us. Mark said that he had no problem. with the release of the files, but. seemed to be suggesting that perhaps the. president had good reason for resisting. the release of them. There were over a. thousand girls. that got molested, raped, drawn into sex trafficking, uh recruited. at 15 years old, recruited other girls. to get raped so that they would.

They never You won't find No, I'm not. willing to publish what you did with. Epstein files. I really don't I don't. think But I went against Trump when he. said that the one thing he cared about. the most What he was doing in essence. was trying to reconcile his basic view. that Massie was in the right with his. larger faith in Trump and reconcile in. Trump we trust with America first. principles. I believe that he did there. was a reason that he did that he could. not tell you or tell the public. I don't.

give anybody I don't I don't give. anybody but God that KIND OF TRUST. >> [applause]. >> AND BY THE END OF IT, I enjoyed this one. with you. Thank you. Thank you. >> [applause]. >> Massie shook the guy's hand and said. that he enjoyed it. I wonder Robert what you took from this. exchange and really from this entire. town hall by the time it was over.

Yeah, Michael what became clear to me is. that for as popular as Thomas Massie has. been here in in the past and really. still is with many people. the split with the president is clearly. registering with voters. Now whether. that's forcing them to reconsider their. feelings about President Trump or. deciding they aren't going to vote for. Massie, they do understand the stakes of. this race which is you are either with. Trump or you are against him and there. is no room for independence.

What I later learned was that the guy. running against Massie. the one who's got Trump's support. he understands that and in [music] fact. he's bet his entire campaign on it. We'll be right back. [music]. >> [music].

>> So Robert you end up spending time with. Massie's rival in this race at Gallatin. Tell us about that time. Yes, Caitlin. and I. a couple of days after the Massie event. attended a Gallatin event. All right, so. you guys can come in and start just. setting up and I'll bring you a head out. in about 10 minutes. Are they doing a. tour or something like that? And it was. a kind of an odd event I have to say it. wasn't attended by voters but instead. took place in a manufacturing plant.

It's stated purpose was to have the US. Chamber of Commerce announce it's. official endorsement of Gallatin in the. presence of a handful of members of the. press. Please welcome Ed Gallant Rhine. So, the US Chamber guy gave a very quick. speech. Well, thank you for that. Can. y'all hear me in back back here? Can you hear me okay? I want to thank you for those kind. remarks, but Gallant Rhine then gave his. own 10 or 15-minute talk. And how is he.

making his case about this candidacy of. his? I was 26 years old before I left. Kentucky to go off to the Navy SEALs as. an officer. I want you to hold that. thought. I grew up on the largest dairy farm in. the state of Kentucky. Do you all. Anybody out there know anything about. dairy farm? The first thing that Gallant. Rhine did was introduce himself by. saying that he's not a politician, that. he is from a multi-generational. farming family, that he won a multitude. of Bronze Stars serving his country as a.

Navy SEAL, and then finally more. recently was pressed into service again. by President Trump. I'm proud to stand. with President Trump, the Republican. Party, his American first and Kentucky. always agenda. I added that. The. President said he liked it. When I said. that, I told you I said, "It's America. first and Kentucky always. I like that, Ed." That's what he said. President. Trump cuts taxes. And right away it. became clear that his support for Trump, and for that matter Trump's support for. him, is really the message that he's running.

on. I mean, he didn't talk about what. committee assignments he would like to. have. He didn't talk about America's. place in the world. He didn't talk about. specific spending bills or really any. legislation at all. President Trump. needed conservatives in Congress to. deliver for the American people and what. they voted for. What? What he talked. about was Trump. If I remember, nearly. 78 million Americans voted for President. Trump. Won 31 states, is that right, including. the swing states and 312 electoral. votes? That is significant. That's a message.

And then after that, But Thomas Massie. stood in the way, not just against. President Trump, but against the party. and America. He described how Massie was. the person who was standing in the way. of this agenda being passed. Kentucky. deserves an American congressman who. will stand with President Trump, the. Republican Party, and conservatives, not. against him. And that the fourth. district deserved someone who was more. in keeping with the man that they had. voted for, uh Donald Trump, and that he.

would be that man. So, thank you all for. coming here. God bless President Trump, the. Republican Party. God bless Kentucky. God bless United States of America. And. I'll take a few questions. Thank you all. for coming. Thank you all for coming. today. [applause]. And after that, he took about four. questions from members of the press. And. in its. guardrails-heavy. nature, it seemed to be the exact. opposite of Massie's free-form,

anything-goes encounter that we'd had a. couple of days earlier. And and what do. you think explains that. decision-making? Well, it's that there's. a paradoxical element of his campaign. that, while Trump desperately wants. Massie to be crushed with overwhelming. force, uh this campaign is kind of doing. so with a very, very light footprint. And I think also is very careful about. saying anything that could possibly. offend the president who has endorsed.

him, which was why, when I had an. opportunity during the Q&A, uh you know, I asked him You did say a. couple of minutes ago that you stand. with President Trump. And Thomas Massie. has said that that's tantamount to you. being a yes-man, a rubber stamp. Are you. going to be Trump's rubber stamp? And I. wonder. if you could comment on that. If you see. yourself as someone who would be. unswervingly with the president or. someone who would be independent. >> And what did he say? So first of all, I.

want to give you scene setter. I guess I. should have got five bronze stars to. demonstrate my personal courage and. independence to act on my own. I guess I. should have served a three times at SEAL. Team Six instead of two. But they have. rules about that and you don't do so. much. There's no point of importance. about that. I got to give thanks to. other folks I did that, but it's a long. way from a dairy farm in the Ohio River. to SEAL Team Six and I'm not talking. geography. You know, beyond describing his resume, he was essentially conflating individual. courage with uh political independence,

which struck me as two different things. The president knows who I am. He knows what I stand for. He knows exactly who he was talking to. I am no rubber stamp. Will never happen. And um said that being a rubber stamp. was never who he was nor who he would. ever be. No sirree, Bob. I'll put a bow on it. with this. I represent these folks here. I'm their servant leader and the. president knows that. You can count on. it. But I wanted to push on that idea. just to learn a little more from the. candidate as to really just what he'd.

like to be as a congressman. So I paid him a call. Robert Draper. Hey. Hey Robert, where you at now? And. what exactly did you ask him what did he. say and were you able to fully resolve. this question of whether he was capable. of. being anything other than a Trump. teammate? Yeah, I started in our brief. phone interview by asking him the most. basic of questions. I'm just curious to. know what House committees you'd like to. serve on. You're a man of varied. interests and and you could go in a.

bunch of different directions. So what. do you what do you have in mind? What's. on your wish list? What House committees. would he like to serve on? Right. I'm. going to go to Speaker Johnson and the. president. and J.D. I'm going to say, "Where you. need me, coach?" Just like when I played. ball at at Franklin Simpson, when I. played ball at Centre College, when I. played ball at Murray. That is a team sport. Governing is a. team sport. Now, I got my desires, I got. places I think I fit, but he knows what. the whole ball team looks like. Does.

that make sense? >> Sure. And the answer that he gave me was. whatever the coach says. Speaker Johnson. and President Trump would be the ones to. make that decision for him and that he. would happily abide by it. I mean, to state the obvious, this is quite. different than Thomas Massie's vision of. Congress, where. independence is essential. and the prerogatives of the Congress are. to do what individual members think is.

necessary, regardless of the team. they're on, regardless of what the. president wants. That's right. Yeah, and. and I pressed him later on whether he. would have done as Massie did on the. release of the Epstein files and he. basically said, well, I'm for. transparency, but I'm for transparency. in a way that doesn't cause any conflict. with the president. And [laughter] you. know, I asked him, would you be in favor. of the overthrowing the Cuban regime, for example? And he said, I'm in favor. of liberating the Cubans, but in. whatever way the president wants to.

achieve that, I'm fine. So, in our brief. conversation, at no point was there any. suggestion that he would assert himself. as an individual, instead he would be an. enabler of whatever the Trump. administration had in mind. And look, to be fair, this is the. calculation he's making, that if he's. going to have a shot in this race, he's. got to present himself as an alternative. to Massie. And right now, Massie's. biggest vulnerability is that he's lost. the support of the president in a state.

where the president is very popular. So, Gal Ryan is running as the. alternative to that. >> [snorts]. >> Uh and Gal Ryan has. an incredible financial war chest uh. supporting him. Uh and by supporting. him, what I really mean is attacking. Massie. Mhm. You had said earlier that this race. remains quite close. And so it's. tempting to ponder all the implications. of Massie surviving this, all the. implications of Massie losing this race. But I wonder if at the end of the day. those implications aren't so far apart.

If Massie loses, Trump will have clearly. shown that there's no tolerance for. opposing him even when somebody like. Massie is taking out positions that are. really grounded in what Trump claims his. political movement is all about. But. even if Massie wins, the message to everyone else in the. Republican Party is do you really want. to go through what I just went through. in the name of independence from Trump? And the answer's probably no. So, either.

way, I might argue, Trump achieves his. goal of imposing a very high degree of. ideological conformity, right? That's. right. It's definitely the case. But it. also comes. with a certain risk, right? I mean, because we've just come out with this. poll The New York Times has showing how. on the generic ballot Democrats are up. by 10 or something. So, to basically, you know, wed yourself to Trump is.

really to be rolling the dice that this. fidelity to the president is not going. to prove damaging to the entire party. >> Mhm. And so, yeah, I mean, it's, you. know, Trump has basically sent this. message which I believe win or lose by. Massie is still going to be present. But. meanwhile, uh Republicans cannot be. inattentive to this greater electoral. message, the storm clouds that are. gathering suggesting that when it comes.

to general elections, it's a deeply. problematic thing siding with the. president. >> Right. I mean, if the midterms were held. today, according to the New York Times. poll that came out on Monday, the one. when just referenced, it's very clear. that Republicans would almost certainly. lose the house based on all the factors. you just described. They wouldn't lose. Massie's seat. Whether it's Massie or. Gallarin, it's going to be held by a. Republican. But nationally, these polls. suggest swing districts are going to. swing Democratic. And what Trump is. saying to every Republican.

in this very expensive Massie race is, do not dare trying to break with me even. if I am steering this car off the. midterm cliff. Well, if Trump. understands nothing else, he understands. leverage. And he has always shown a willingness to. use that leverage. And that leverage. includes no small element of fear. It. does send a formidable message that you. don't want to tangle with this guy.

And we have not seen any president, I. think, in modern history, perhaps in the. history of American politics, who has. had such command over his party. even in defiance of public opinion polls. that would suggest that people. be a little bit wary of [music] that. fidelity to Trump. Well, Robert, thank you very much. My pleasure, Michael. [music].

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know. [music] today. On Monday, a jury. rejected Elon Musk's lawsuit claiming. that [music] OpenAI, the artificial. intelligence company he co-founded, had. violated its original mission by putting. commercial interests over the good of. humanity. Jurors did not rule on the merits of.

Musk's argument. [music] Instead, they. found that Musk brought his lawsuit. against OpenAI and its chief executive, Sam [music] Altman, after the statute of. limitations had expired. And the Trump administration has created. [music] an unusual $1.8 billion fund. overseen by the president's allies to. compensate those [music] who claim they. were politically targeted by the Justice. Department under President Biden. Democratic officials called it a.

taxpayer-financed [music]. slush fund that would enrich Trump's. supporters. And they predicted it would. make payouts [music]. to, among others, those convicted of participating in the. January 6th riots at the US [music]. Capitol. Today's episode was produced by Caitlyn. O'Keefe, Anna Foley, [music] and Olivia. Natt with help from Chris Benderav. It was edited [music] by Devon Taylor.

and Rachel Quester and contains music. >> [music]. >> by Pat McCusker, Marion Lozano, and Dan. Powell. Our theme [music] music is by. Wonderly. This episode was engineered by Chris. Wood. >> [music]. [music]. >> That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. [music]. See you tomorrow.