A Reporter’s Journey Into Gaza

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily Israel's war against Hamas has. caused large scale destruction in Gaza. and a death toll that now stands at. nearly 13,000 people according to Gaza. Health. officials now as the war enters its. seventh week Israel finds itself under. intense pressure from allies and from.

critics to justify its. strategy today my colleague Patrick. Kingsley goes inside Gaza with the. Israeli military to a hospital that's at. the heart of Israel's. argument it's Tuesday November. [Music]. 21st so Patrick late Thursday night you. were one of five J journalists who were.

invited by the Israeli military to go. inside Gaza to see really for the first. time what things looked like on the. ground so tell me how this trip came. about and what your questions were going. into it what you wanted to. understand the context was that Israel. had just taken control of parts or most. of a hospital that has been at the. center of the discourse about Israel's.

invasion of Gaza and basically become a. proxy for a wider debate about the. conduct of Israel's air strikes and its. Invasion right the hospital alifa is the. largest in Gaza and Israel has since the. start of its Invasion maintained that it. conceals a secret Hamas military base. and that therefore the hospital even. though it is a civil institution must be.

captured in order to defeat Hamas and. remove hamas's military capabilities MH. the war as we know has caused. catastrophic loss of civilian life. around 13,000 people according to the. gazan health Ministry have been killed. since the start of the war in Gaza many. of them are civilians many of them. children and to Palestinians and to many. International observers that is evidence. of Israel's indiscriminate targeting of.

civilians but to Israel there's such a. high civilian death toll because of. Hamas because Hamas embeds itself they. say within civilian infrastructure in or. near schools or hospitals and therefore. Israel in response to the devastating. raid on many of its Southern towns and. villages on October 7th that killed an. estimated 1200 people has no choice but.

to Target civilian areas and the shifa. hospital. is the embodiment of this debate because. it's the largest hospital in Gaza and if. Israel can prove that it was military. infrastructure then many Israelis think. that it will help justify and help. sustain international support for its. Invasion but if they can't then to. Palestinian and others it will prove.

their point that Israel's conduct of the. war is illegal and. unjustified so in a way the hospital is. about more than just a hospital right. it's about the logic that Israel is. applying in the broader War absolutely. so that was the context in which I woke. up last Thursday and we had a lot of. questions and the Israeli military. agreed late in the afternoon to take me.

to see the hospital it was not a. decision we took lightly not least. because they did not want us to take. pictures of the inside of one of the. military vehicles that we were traveling. in and they didn't want us to take. pictures of the faces of most of the. soldiers we were going with and we were. only going to be able to see the places. that they wanted us to see and we. weren't going to be able to talk to any. Palestinians so there were plenty of. restrictions on visit but we decided it.

was worth it because very few. journalists have been able to enter Gaza. since the start of the war those that. are in Gaza have had their movements. greatly restricted by air strikes the. Israeli Invasion itself as well as. restrictions placed by Hamas dozens of. Palestinian journalists have died trying. to report on what's going on and we felt. that whatever limited window we could. get onto what was going on in Gaza in. particular at the hospital would be.

worth. it New York Times New York Times okay so. tell me the story of going inside Gaza. to see this hospital we started off. inside Israel itself at the Village of. B we are just getting into a Hummer. about to leave the Israeli Village of. bar which was one of the villages that. was overrun by Hamas and its allies on.

October 7th we're driving in this. Israeli military. Jeep now on a. bumpy Farm. Road at a certain point we were then. taken to a second military vehicle this. time an open-sided Jeep and we're. joining a long long Convoy of dozens of. military vehicles we then switched our. phones onto flight mode so that after.

entering Gaza our phones couldn't be. picked up by any digital surveillance. systems we're just crossing the border. between Israel and Gaza we just passed. through a gate in the fence that divides. the Gaza Strip from the state of Israel. and so several hours after we'd arrived. at kubit B we were finally rumbling into. Gaza through a gap in the same f that.

Hamas penetrated on October 7th this. time heading into Gaza rather than out. of it and this time heading into. darkness just the dim lights of the. vehicles in the Israeli Army. Convoy and above. us stars in the. sky in every village and town we then. passed through there was almost no light.

coming from the. windows so the Convoy was a sort of. Silent Juggernaut making its way through. a silent dark. landscape the first Village we went to. we didn't see much damage but we're now. passing a building that looks totally. bombed out as we kept on going three.

floors walls are almost totally. destroyed and we could see buildings. that felt like someone had taken a bite. out of them the roof appears to have. fallen onto. [Music]. the ground floor and the walls are given. way Village after Village seemed in. total. ruin it's just ruin after ruin destroyed. house after destroyed. house.

Rubble upon Rubble it was a kind of. ghostly. scene not like the Gaza that I've come. to know over the last decade of visits. and smell. burning there was no Palestinian to be. seen more than a million we understand. have fled South leaving most Villages. and most towns mostly empty you know. what kind of building this used to be. what.

I guess Gaza is a place of noise it's a. place of light it's a place of life. outside of Wars but on this night. shortly after midnight on Friday morning. it felt like a place of. [Music]. [Laughter]. [Music]. death.

see the last time I was here in the late. summer there. were beach resorts. cafes people swimming in the. sea people drinking juice drinking. coffee in those. [Music]. cafes watching the. sunset.

now I'm surrounded by. [Music]. [Music]. ruins so what happened next we got out. of our Jeep and I'm now walking.

into the nir which is an armored. vehicle bit like a tank but without a. gun turret we entered a heavily armored. personnel. carrier a small ramp ducking and that. showed that while Israel seems to have. got the middle section of Gaza roughly. under its control it's still fighting.

active battles in Gaza City and they. wanted to put us in this Personnel carry. in order to guard against. Ambush and several minutes later we. arrived on the edge of Aliva hospital. and this was the destination the final. destination of our brief journey into. Northern Gaza we're now leaving the. armored vehicle stepping out in. the jet black KN so the doorway to the.

armored personnel carrier slowly went. down a bit like a draw bridge to a. medieval castle being led by Special. Forces creating a gang way from the. inside of the vehicle to the ground. we're told by miliary spokesman that. we've now entered the hospital to be. honest I didn't notice we had to pick. our way from the street through the.

rubble of a ruined building and we were. ushered into a ruin on the edge of the. hospital ground the hospital is not just. a single building it's a sort of roughly. Square shaped. complex and we arrived in what we were. told was previously a cafeteria and. there we met Lieutenant Colonel Richard. hex who's the International spokesman.

for the Israeli Army so what your St. we're not in a safe you might hear some. firing and we picked our way through the. debris and out closer to the center of. the hospital complex towards a shaft. this is one of the. entrances shafts large wide shaft and. you can see that like cemented wall you. see it this is a Hamas tunnel that they. said that they had discovered earlier.

that day underneath a car that they said. had contained weapons and explosives and. had belonged to Hamas militants I just. want you to get the visual it's just. important that you see this and the. shaft was several yards deep it had the. remains of a a metal staircase. descending into it we could see. electrical cables descending into the. shaft we couldn't see where the sh was. leading to but the military said this is.

the start of the Hamas underground. complex that is underneath the hospital. but what does it what does it tell us. that there's a spiral staircase going. down into the ground it's interesting. but it doesn't prove anything doesn't. prove that there is a command center. what would you say it is I would say. it's it's a spiral staircase leading. into the ground where too I don't know. neither do the middle of the Earth for. them this was Pro positive that. something unto W was going on within the.

grounds of shifa it was proof positive. that there was a military command center. and it became a subject of dispute. because we journalists can't just take. people's word for it we have to see for. our own eyes what the shaft is leading. to it could be anywhere it could be a. part to anywhere we have to see that. leads to a tunnel that then leads to a. command center that has weapons in it. and so on and what we were seeing was. simply not that it was something that. seemed odd why would there be a shaft. with a stair case leading down into the.

ground on the grounds of a hospital but. without further information without. further images without being able to go. down to the bottom of the shaft and. proceed further we could not conclude. more than that so is the idea that you. can't go further down that spiral. staircase because they might be. explosives it could be booby trap it can. be explosives it just takes time we'll. do it though we'll get them and the. military the senior officers. well that was impossible for now this it.

took us a long time to find this and. we've been pressed for the last 36 hours. why we didn't come with a big victory. picture and show the command said this. is going to take time but and con of. operation they are very frustrated with. the outside world that the outside world. cannot see this for what they believe it. to be but for now we felt that this was. only a shaft a shaft that is maybe. suspicious but inconclusive I think. that's the right right summary the shaft.

is odd it's intriguing we can imagine. what it might lead to but it stopped. short so far of being conclusive. evidence of. anything but so we can't go into the. hospital no and so we push them for. other evidence we pushed them to take us. into other places in the hospital. complex still a threat from there they. can't go into the hospital they said. they couldn't do that for now for a. bunch of reasons including that they. fear that Hamas Fighters were still in.

parts of the hospital that they did not. fully control and that some gunmen from. within parts of the hospital fired on. them when they first entered alifa. Hospital compound and for them this. again was more proof of what they've. been saying all along that Hamas fights. from within the hospital that it's not. Israel that's to blame for attacking a. hospital a place that's supposed to be. offl during a war but it's Hamas and its. allies who who have broken international.

law by entering it in the first place. this is additional equipment that we s. found we also asked if we could see some. of the weapons and IEDs and so on that. they said that they' collected see here. a drone you see C see laptop RPG they. showed us to a shelf where some of them. were naturally anyone can put a bunch of. weapons on a shelf and so this in itself. is not proof even if they really were.

taken from other locations in the. hospital it's not something that we as. an international newspaper can accept as. Pro and I told you that nothing will be. good enough for. you tunnel you see a tunnel underground. what else you this caus a back and forth. because they were desperately hoping. that this would be enough to convince. International reporters but inevitably. it wasn't can we meet Dr Abu Sal you. kind. of and while you were at chiffa did you.

see patients did you see doctors or even. the civilians who were taking shelter. there we saw none why not because I. can't go near the hospital we asked to. visit them and we were told it was too. dangerous to enter that section of the. hospital we give some fuel you can see. you'll see lights are still on they. still have they're taking the fuel I. don't know but the soldiers pointed to. how there were some lights on in the.

hospital and that the situation there. remained. tenable but we knew from other reporting. that there was a desperate situation. inside hundreds if not thousands of. displaced people who'd fled to the. hospital for their safety hundreds of. wounded and injured people some of them. on life support machines and more than. 30 premature babies who were at risk of.

dying but you didn't see any of that. no back to. the we're leaving. yes okay so at the end of your time at. the hospital it seems like what you've. learned is that the Israeli military. thinks they have some evidence of a. command center but it's this shaft which. is kind of unclear what it is or where. it goes they're asserting that Hamas has. been shooting at them from within the. shifa complex that suggests you know.

that they are to some extent operating. in the civilian place though you don't. see evidence of that either like. basically some evidence of some things. but nothing all that conclusive about. any part of it exactly not yet and when. we got back into the armored personnel. carrier can you set across from. me and rumbled back through the southern. neighborhood oods of Gaza City all these.

questions that had been in my mind at. the start of the journey remained there. the question of whether there was. conclusive proof that Hamas had been. using this hospital as a military. command center and as we stood amid such. a disfigured and damaged. landscape why and whether such dis. figment such damage was necessary and. Justified. and that question led to a wider.

discussion with the commanding officer. of the Brigade that has captured that. part of Gaza so I've come to Gaza many. times yeah and this would be the area. where I would go for my morning run. every day I'd go up the beach I'd see. the cafes if he was swimming now it is I. can't even recognize it I was to hear. the commanding officer of the Brigade. colonel elad s this can you explain. and justify the scale of the destruction.

there these cafes are gone the beach. front resorts have gone the Lifeguard. Towers have gone the the apartment. blocks are all shut out why was that so. necessary was every apartment full of. terrorists was was it was every building. every Junction here was full with enemy. that fired on us so I'm sure it's a. beautiful place I am sure sure it could. be a beautiful.

place but they are firing on us so we. have no other option we are in a war. this is a war. zone and it's full with enemy. ammunitions IEDs. RPGs everywhere. mortars that they are firing from this. neighborhood to Israel mortars I know. it's beautiful place place I know could.

be but they are firing from here to Tel. Aviv did you also see this when you. around. here he responded in a way that. suggested my question came from a place. of luxury of privilege and of moral luck. his point was fundamentally that the. Israeli soldiers that he commanded had. had no choice but to fire back at the. places where the Hamas Fighters were and. by extension destroy or damage the.

buildings in which Hamas was. hiding I think we can all understand the. need to take out rocket launchers and. places where Hamas members firing on at. Israel but is every part of this area. it's basically all. gone is is did it all of it have to be. taken out every place that fire on. Israeli soldiers need to be taken out. yes we are in a war sir. it is what it. is how much and they could live.

here the people gaza's people not Hamas. G civilians beautiful. life but it was not what they. [Music]. choose and this was a microcosm of his. wider point which was that while to me. this looked like a deathscape a. hellscape ruin a on ruin that that.

fundamentally was something that hassa. brought on. itself this is fundamentally the Israeli. case yes and it's a refrain that you. hear in Israel Over and. [Music]. Over.

[Music]. we'll be right. back so Patrick we were just talking. about your visit inside shiffa hospital. and in that visit you saw suggestive but. not conclusive evidence of Israel's. claim that there's a Hamas Command. Center under it what has happened since. your visit since my visit they've.

released more evidence they have shown. two more videos of the shaft that we. visited but this time they've shown us. what the shaft leads to and the shaft. seems to lead to a tunnel a tunnel that. extends perhaps dozens of meters. underneath the ground until it reaches a. metal door and that's when the videos. that they have released stop and has the. times independently confirmed confirmed. that this is in fact from shiffer this. video yes we've confirmed both our video.

investigation team has confirmed that. this video is from shifer and we can see. from the images ourselves me and my. colleagues who were down there on Friday. morning that this was the same shaft. that we looked at and that's not the. only bit of evidence the Israeli Army. has produced since we visited they've. also released close circuit television. footage that shows people dragging in. someone under duress into the entrance.

of one of the buildings of the shifa. hospital and it also shows them Wheeling. someone who looks badly injured through. on a gurnie through the corridors of. shifa Hospital the Israeli Army says. that these people were people that were. kidnapped on October 7th and that this. is more evidence that Hamas used the. Shiva hospital as some kind of military. command center. and the times has also verified the.

location what we haven't done is confirm. the exact timings of those videos. although the videos themselves do have. the date of October 7th in the top. leftand. corner so bringing the hostages into the. hospital could actually mean that Hamas. is using it as some kind of base of some. sort exactly there's a counter argument. that says that just because they brought. in injured people into the hospital that.

doesn't mean that the hospital is being. used as some kind of military nerve. center those people perhaps were injured. and needed to be treated the. counterargument to that is that at least. one of those people does not seem to be. badly injured and secondly there is more. than one Hospital in Gaza in fact. there's schores of hospitals and if. Hamas or their allies were really. concerned about rushing people to have. medical treatment they could have gone. to any number of other Medical centers. in hospitals that are closer to Israel.

than. shifa Patrick to the question that we. started this conversation with the. question of whether there is proof of. the Israeli claim that there is a. command center under the hospital there. is more evidence but it does still seem. to stop short of conclusive proof right. that's right lots of intriguing evidence. is coming out but from a journalistic. point of view if this was a a New York. Times investigation our editors would. say to us go back and gather more. evidence this is not the conclusive slam.

dunk that you're saying that it is and. and indeed that is what our editors are. saying right now we're still saying that. this stops short so far of conclusive. proof of a military command center. underneath the hospital but is a tunnel. with a big metal door that goes down. deep into the Earth not pretty damning. of Hamas though I mean why would there. be a tunnel under a hospital at all. that's a very good question and one that. we're all ask K and there don't seem to. be that many innocent explanations for.

why that would be all that said there. still fall short of conclusive proof and. we need to wait days possibly weeks for. further evidence to be presented so in a. world where this is the extent of the. evidence of the claim that Hamas is. underground there at the. hospital what does it mean about the. broader underlying justification for. hitting a lot of the civilian places. that that been hit if this is it if this. is all we're ever going to see in terms.

of evidence what does it mean I think it. means that in the outside world the. battle lines that have already been. drawn between Israel and its supporters. and the Palestinians and their. supporters will not really shift and. it's going to remain a subject of debate. and more broadly it means that the. debate over whether Israel has been. indiscriminately targeting civilian. infrastructure or whether Hamas has been. embedding itself within civilian.

institutions is not really going to be. shifted because both sides are going to. dig in and say that they have enough. evidence to prove their point okay so. let's consider the reverse in a world. where we do eventually see conclusive. proof of a command center underneath. shiffa Hospital what will it mean. specifically about how Israel thinks. about the total death toll Israel will. say that it butresses their argument. that. they are not totally to blame for such a.

high civilian death toll they will say. that look Hamas was embedded within. gaza's largest hospital is it any. surprise that when we had to take action. following hamas's raid on Israel on. October 7th our response had a civilian. toll but do you think it still begs the. question about Israel's calculus when. when it comes to civilian deaths and of. course the reason I ask you this is that.

Israel's stated goal and really the goal. in any military conflict is supposed to. be to Target militants right enemies not. civilians but if the ratio is far far. more civilians are dying versus Hamas. militants that's pretty meaningful I. think this question boils down to how. many civilian deaths is too many. civilian deaths and there are many. people who look at what's going on in. Gaza and say that even one death is too. many but to others including many in.

Israel the question really is about. whether Israel is taking precautions to. minimize the loss of civilian life when. attempting the very difficult task of. targeting militants who have based. themselves in civilian areas and that. debate becomes even more complicated. because we don't know how many militants. Hamas fighters fighters from other. Palestinian armed groups have actually.

been killed there are some suggestions. that it could be as many as 5,000 some. suggestions it is much lower they. haven't said on the record how many. fighters they've killed we understand. they are keeping track they haven't said. exactly what proportion of Civilian. death to military death is acceptable. and without doing that they open the. door for accusations that they are not. taking enough care to prevent the loss. of civilian. life Patrick it feels like from.

everything you're saying about the. Israeli strategy and and from what the. IDF soldiers told you when you were. there in Gaza with them that the Israeli. belief really is that Hamas is. hiding literally anywhere and everywhere. and so that everything is a potential. Target but because the stated goal of. Israel is to eliminate Hamas it seems. like the the only logical outcome of. that is basically the total Destruction.

of Gaza and of course even more. civilians dying in the process yes and. that's why when I went in on early on. Friday morning we saw such Devastation. Village after Village of collapsed. buildings Rubble roads completely. churned up apartment blocks largely. destroyed it looked like a hellscape and. largely unlivable. so Patrick are you getting any. indication that any of this you know the.

large numbers of. deaths the destruction that you yourself. witnessed in Gaza is making the Israelis. at all queasy or uncomfortable with. their overall strategy of targeting. Hamas within civilian areas I mean is. there any indication that they're. considering whether there might be a. different way to do all of this some. other way where the toll on civilians is. less severe are there other tactics. being.

contemplated I think they're not just. being contemplated but we are seeing. those actions to some extent being. carried out on the ground not in a way. that feels meaningful to many of. Israel's critics but nevertheless they. are taking place and an example of that. is the operation to capture shifa. Hospital following a lot of American. pressure Israel decided to send in only. a small Force to capture certain parts. of it and search certain parts of it.

rather than sending in overwhelming. force that might have created a blood. bath and while this is small consolation. to many Palestinians and indeed the. people who are inside the hospital who. have not had anything like proper. treatment in the last few weeks this was. in Israel's eyes and indeed I think in. the eyes of some of its allies as an. example of Israel trying to Temple for. what it was doing interesting what about.

the question of hostages does all of. this strategy to destroy Hamas and its. military capability jeopardize that. other major goal you know getting those. 240 some OD hostages back how does that. factor into the strategy at this point. on the one hand the further that Israel. pushes inside Gaza the greater the. chance of street fighting and even. Subterranean fighting between Israeli. soldiers and Hamas Fighters becomes and.

as that likelihood Rises so too does the. likelihood that hostages might be killed. in the crossfire and that's why there. are protesters not huge numbers of. protesters but there are protesters. inside Israel who want a ceasefire in. order to save the lives of hostages the. flip side though is that the further. Israel goes inside Gaza the more. intelligence it's able to pick up about. the location of the hostages the like it. is that it might be able to rescue some. of those hostages and thirdly the likel.

it is that Hamas might feel more. pressured to release some hostages in. order to secure a ceasefire that would. buy Hamas sometime to regroup to rebuild. its remaining infrastructure to get fuel. in to get food in both for civilian. population but also probably for its own. purposes and what we have now are. negotiations conducted through mediators. between Israel and Hamas about the.

release of some of those hostages in. exchange for Palestinian prisoners. inside Israeli jails those negotiations. we understand are are closer and closer. to reaching some kind of conclusion but. it could be days if not another week. before those negotiations actually do. bear fruit what's your best guess about. where the Israeli strategy goes what's. going to happen I think it's likely.

we're going to have a ceasefire at some. point in the next week that would allow. for some hostages to be exchanged for. some Palestinian prisoners inside. Israeli jails but even if that doesn't. happen again it seems likely that Israel. is going to head south that's where. Israel believes that the Hamas. leadership including Yak sinoa the head. of Hamas in Gaza is hiding there's also. some talk that that's actually where. most of the hostages are and that is. going to compound a devastating.

humanitarian crisis in the South right. because most of the people from the. North had fled to the South right so the. south is now housing the majority of the. gazen. population exactly the population of. Southern Gaza has probably doubled we've. got around 2 million people in this. relatively small pocket of land there. are reports of diseases spreading people. are Scavenging for food and water water. every day because there such a shortage. it's a really desperate situation as it.

is and with an invading Army heading. into that mess it is expected to get a. whole lot. [Music]. worse what we could see to mitigate that. albeit only in relative terms is for. another transfer of the population back. up to the. north where to is really clear because. as I saw large Paths of Northern Gaza.

are decimated and it's not entirely. clear where people would go if they went. back North to where they've been. living the question is come back to what. in many cases they will be coming back. to. [Music]. ruins Patrick thank you thank you. [Music].

Sabrina we'll be right. back here's what else you should know. today on Monday a Federal appeals court. drastically weakened the Voting Rights. act issuing a ruling that would. effectively bar private citizens and.

civil rights groups from filing lawsuits. under a central provision of the. law the ruling made by the US court of. appeals for the 8th circuit found that. only the federal government could bring. a legal challenge under section two of. the Voting Rights Act a crucial part of. the law that prohibits election or. voting practices that discriminate. against Americans based on race the. opinion is almost certain to be appealed. to the Supreme Court where the current.

conservative majority has a mixed record. when it comes to cases on voting. [Music]. rights today's episode was produced by. AA chatra Stella tan and Carlos PR with. help from Summer tamod it was edited by. Paige cwit and Patricia willins contains. original music by Marian Lozano Dan. Powell and Rowan neimo and was. engineered by Chris Wood our theme music.

is by Jim brunberg and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina tavernes see you. [Music]. tomorrow.