A Radical Reboot of Nuclear Energy

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. [Music]. daily nuclear power once the great hope. for a clean way to meet the world's. energy needs fell out of favor decades. ago today my colleague Brad plumer. explains how one company with a radical. idea is now working to bring it.

[Music]. back it's Monday July. [Music]. 29th Brad welcome to the show thank you. for having me so you cover climate and. you've been reporting on something that. doesn't normally come to mind when I. think of climate change and that's. nuclear power it hasn't really been part. of the conversation about how to fix.

climate change really at all in recent. years but now you found that that is. changing tell me about that yeah so. there is a ton of innovation and a ton. of investment pouring into nuclear power. right now and a big part of the reason. for that is there's this growing sense. among experts and policy makers that in. order to fight climate change we really. need a wide variety of Clean Energy. Technologies right now we have solar. power we have wind power those are.

growing incredibly fast and really doing. quite well but they don't run all the. time the sun's not always shining the. wind's not always blowing right and so. having something else like nuclear power. that can run all the time would just be. incredibly valuable and might even be. necessary if we want to solve climate. change and that seems pretty important. right now right I mean we've got these. heat waves across the United States. storms feel more severe and wildfires. are more and more destructive.

so finding new sources of clean energy. is a pretty urgent task right now. exactly but also in addition to fighting. climate change we just need a lot more. electricity in general there's this. enormous growing demand for power from. new data centers from growing interest. in artificial intelligence from electric. cars from all these new factories that. are popping up to build solar panels and. batteries and so you have a lot of. companies that are just urgently Looking.

for clean energy sources that can run 24. hours a day so to meet all of these. needs right now there's been a huge Push. by the Us and other countries to figure. out how to make nuclear energy which is. emissions free really a big part of the. solution but question hasn't the nuclear. power industry been around for a long. time yeah it's a very well-established. technology that's been around since the. 1950s but the history of using nuclear.

technology to make electricity has been. pretty Rocky it's had a lot of ups and. downs and the country has really Fallen. both in and out of love with nuclear. over. time so when nuclear power was first. developed in the 1950s and 60s there. were incredibly high hopes for it. electricity man's most versatile source. of power and now man is using a powerful. new source of electric power the. atom people saw it as this potentially.

unlimited cheap energy source 2 O of. uranium 235 can produce as much. electrical energy as 800 carloads of. poal it's clean energy no air pollution. powering electric. cars there were interviews where. officials were predicting that you know. one day all new power plants would be. nuclear just solving so many of the. world's problems so already back then. they had this vision for fossil-free.

future through nuclear oh. absolutely the same atoms that send. power surging from huge Atomic power. stations are also opening new Realms. which only the endurance of nuclear. power can. conquer by the end of the 1960s you had. more than 50 nuclear reactors under. construction across the United States. and in the beginning they were actually. quite affordable but as more of these. plants got built people discovered.

different issues with them flaws that. need to be corrected safety issues that. need to be addressed with regulations. and you had Federal Regulators the. agency that is now known as the nuclear. Regulatory Commission laying out new. rules and safety standards and. regulations for these plants R I wanted. to ask you about that because when I. think of arguments against nuclear I. think you know that it's not safe like. that's the main obstacle so can you.

explain some of that thinking like what. are the safety issues here so with any. nuclear plant there really are potential. risks to people and the environment. nuclear power plants create radiation. that needs to be contained and if you. have a big dose of radiation that leaks. out into the environment that can be. potentially very harmful to humans and. nearby wildlife and then the plants also. produce radioactive waste that takes a. long time to Decay and needs to be. safely stored for many hundreds of years.

the safety record for nuclear power has. been extremely good in the United States. and that's largely because the plants. have a ton of safety features to contain. radiation leaks and a lot of that has. come because the plants are very. strictly regulated so nuclear plants. then are pretty safe despite the risks. so where did this public perception of. danger come from then so the reality is. no technology is ever going to be. completely risk-free there's always the. potential for an accident and then you. had this big shock event in.

1979 for many years there has been a. vigorous debate in this country about. the safety of the nation's 72 nuclear. energy power plants that debate is. likely to be intensified because of what. happened early this morning at a nuclear. power plant in Pennsylvania a reactor at. the 3M Island nuclear power plant in. Pennsylvania partially melted down I. heard a very loud noise uh that sounded. like a huge release of steam looked out.

the window it was geyser of steam that. was raising up in the air so that. meltdown released some radioactive gases. into the environment which was really. concerning you had hundreds of thousands. of people evacuate from the nearby area. the radiation inside the plant is at. eight times the deadly level so strong. that after passing through a 3ft thick. concrete wall it can be measured a mile. away there were no deaths or big health. effects that resulted from the Meltdown.

the leak ended up being relatively small. but it was huge national news it's a lot. worse than what they're telling us. typical wise they had to close all those. nuclear power plants down it really. horrified a lot of people across the. nation and it caused enormous. disruptions in the. industry and in a lot of ways it was the. beginning of the end of nuclear power in. the United States in the 20th century. [Music].

there were dozens of reactors still. under construction at the time of 3M. Island and suddenly they were all put on. pause while Regulators reviewed safety. rules they put in place a bunch of new. stricter regulations across the industry. everything from training staff to. upgrading piping systems and Fire. Equipment some projects ended up being. delayed for 10 years and the cost of. building a nuclear power plant really. went through the roof after that. accident in other words after 3 m Island. There Was You Know legit a concern about.

safety and the regulations just piled on. and that made building new plants. prohibitively expensive that's right you. get a couple different explanations for. what happened there some blame the. industry for poorly managing projects. but you also get a lot of people who say. that the nuclear Regulatory Commission. had piled on too many rules and driven. up the cost of nuclear power and you do. get an argument about whether those.

regulations are reasonable you might say. look nuclear power is inherently. dangerous we should uh regulate as. strictly as possible there are others. who point out that we have a bunch of. different regulatory bodies in the US. like the FDA that looks at drugs and. they tend to weigh the benefits with the. risks of new technology a lot of critics. of the nuclear Regulatory Commission say. that it only focuses on the risks and. when you regulate like that techn IES. could become unaffordable basically.

utilities couldn't afford to take the. financial risk of building a new plant. anymore they didn't know how long it. would take they didn't know how much it. would cost and they were scared. off okay so that explains how the hopes. for nuclear power died the potential for. danger became big enough that simply. making these plants became too expensive. too complicated too unwieldy and we. basically stopped building them but as.

we talked about earlier the need for. clean energy has grown enormously since. then so what is happening now what's the. state of nuclear energy in the US today. so now what we're starting to see is a. whole bunch of startups and companies. going back to the drawing board and. completely rethinking nuclear power. technology to try to make it more. affordable to try to make it faster to. build they are coming up with new ideas. for nuclear power power plants that are.

radically different from what we've seen. over the past 50. [Music]. years and now this summer we're actually. seeing the construction of the very. first of these plants in. [Music]. Wyoming we'll be right back. [Music].

so Brad you said that new companies are. now trying to revive this nuclear. industry and update it for the present. day and that we're seeing that happening. in Wyoming what's going on there so in. Southwest Wyoming there's this coal town. called kemer outside the town is this. giant coal plant that's scheduled to. close in the next 15 years and then just.

down the road this startup called Terra. power has just begun construction on a. nuclear power plant in June which is the. only nuclear power plant currently under. construction in the United. States thanks so much for joining us all. here today for the groundbreaking of. America's Next nuclear power station. chem unit. one so I went to the groundbreaking for. this plant and Chris LC the CEO of ter.

power was there talking about how. excited he was to finally start building. this new plant not only is this. America's Next reactor it's the first. Advanced reactor in the Free World and. the man who started this. company is Bill Gates I want to. acknowledge the great work done by the. Terra power team starting with Chris but. you know it's kind of a dream and here. we are making it a reality so Bill Gates. who I think of as a public health guy.

not really a nuclear power guy why is. Bill Gates involved in a nuclear power. plant yeah Bill Gates has been. interested for a long time and trying to. figure out how to solve climate change. and at this groundbreaking he told the. story of how his interest in nuclear. power got started it was around 2005. when I was talking to some Physics. friends of mine about the need for. electricity and really trying to. understand from them why nuclear power. had gotten so EXP.

and he said he was talking to his. scientist friends who explained how the. economics of nuclear power just weren't. working basically for all the reasons we. talked about earlier and they talked to. me about how if you started a new and. were willing to embrace Innovation you. could build something that was both. safer and cheaper and so we started a. company with a very bold idea to. revolutionize nuclear power. so that inspired gates to start Terra.

power around 2008 he hired a team of. hundreds of Engineers to redesign a. nuclear power plant from scratch because. he believed the technology was the key. to the country's growing energy needs so. here we are standing on what will soon. be the bread Rock of America's Energy. Future and I can't wait to be here when. we turn the reactor on thank you. [Music].

okay so what do they come up with so. I'll try not to get too technical here. okay but most nuclear plow plants today. basically use the atomic fion to heat up. a bunch of water and create steam to. generate electricity they're basically. giant kettal but the problem with that. is because the water is highly. pressurized these plants often need. heavy piping thick containment Shields. to protect against things like steam.

explosions and other accidents and that. makes them very complex and very. expensive so Terra power decided that. instead of using water to use Liquid. sodium salt basically that's heated up. and the advantage of that is that it. operates at lower pressures and in. theory you don't need a lot of the same. heavy components the thick Shields other. safety features that traditional light. waterer reactors need. and what's the advantage of that Brad so.

the idea is if you don't have as many. components it should be cheaper in the. long run they're making smaller plants. so that you're not investing as much. money up front and the risk is not quite. as big and how much approximately would. it cost to build one of these things. right now they're estimating that the. initial plant will cost around $4. billion now I talked to a lot of people. who expect that to rise a lot as they.

struggle with novel technology but their. hope is that eventually that they can. provide nuclear power for around half. the cost of traditional nuclear power. plants wow half the cost but the plant. is smaller right so does that mean you. know this smaller cheaper plant actually. produces less energy it produces a lot. less energy than the traditional big. plants but the hope is that you build a. bunch of these and eventually you get.

better at building these over time and. the costs come down and their dream. scenario is in the 2030s and the 2040s. the country has a pretty potent source. of clean energy that can supplement all. the wind and solar power that we're. building now but building that first. plant is a gamble they've never done it. before things could go wrong it could be. more expensive than they thought but one. thing that's unique about ter power is.

that they have Bill Gates behind them. one of the world's wealthiest men and he. can afford to take that gamble on the. first few plants right you can afford to. lose $2 billion if you're Bill Gates. right that is more or less what he said. so for this first plant he's already. invested more than a billion dollars of. his own money into it the department of. energy has pledged up to about $2. billion and then there are other private. investors but what he said is he has. pledged to stick with the project even.

if it goes over budget as they work. through some initial growing pains and. that's pretty unique there are a lot of. electric utilities and power companies. out there that have said we'd love to. have a nuclear power plant once you've. figured out the technology and bring the. cost down but we don't want to be the. first one to do it right they don't want. to be the first one in line in the. bungee jump right right okay so this. company has the vision it has the money. it's already started working toward.

making all of this a reality you saw. Bill Gates out there with a shule in. Wyoming what's the likelihood that this. will actually work so they have to prove. that they can build this plant and it's. going to be tough there're a huge number. of obstacles they face that are pretty. daunting the plant won't be finished. until 2030 at the very earliest and a. lot of people I talked to thought even. that might be. optimistic one big hurle they face is.

that their reactor uses this specialized. type of enriched uranium fuel that. currently only Russia makes and that's a. big problem right after Russia invaded. Ukraine in 2022 Terra power said okay. we're not going to buy our fuel from. Russia we need to get somewhere else. Congress has stepped in and basically. approved billions of dollars to build up. a domestic nuclear fuel supply chain but. that's going to take time well that's. it's a very significant hurdle I mean.

years to build up our own supply chain. it's very significant and it's a. potential risk for the plant and maybe a. bigger issue right now is that at the. moment their plant hasn't been fully. approved by The Regulators by the. nuclear Regulatory Commission they've. submitted an application they can. basically start building all of the. parts of the plant around the nuclear. reactor where the atomic fion occurs but. they can't start construction on the. reactor itself yet. that approval will take at least two.

years and possibly longer and that's a. big risk for them is that a deal breaker. so the nuclear Regulatory Commission has. told me that they have received the. application and they are very eager to. show that they can approve new nuclear. technology but the catch is that for. five decades the nuclear Regulatory. Commission has largely overseen those. old lightw reactors that's the. technology they're most familiar with. that's what they're comfortable with so. now they suddenly have to get.

comfortable with a brand new technology. and ensure that it's safe that sounds. like it's going to take a long time it. could take a while and Terra power has. to convince Regulators that their plant. doesn't necessarily need the same. expensive safety equipment that other. reactors have the theory behind them is. that these reactors should be inherently. safer and don't require as many costly. components and safety features but there. are definitely some people worried that.

Regulators may be too inflexible and may. not be up to the task okay so this is. hard there are a lot of obstacles is. there anywhere where these kinds of. nuclear reactors are actually up and. running so no one's trying to build a. reactor exactly like Terra Powers but. right now Russia and China are building. a large number of nuclear reactors and. they're also building some Advanced. models that they hope they can around. the world you know China right now is.

building at least 23 nuclear reactors we. have one this one in Wyoming so a lot of. us officials really think of this as a. race because they don't want to see. China and Russia exporting their nuclear. technology around the world establishing. these long-term relationships with other. countries and becoming the dominant. suppliers of a technology that the. United States invented in the first. place in fact. Congress has been putting a lot of.

pressure on the nuclear Regulatory. Commission they have basically been. saying we want these new Advance. reactors you need to get these approved. in a timely fashion so everyone's. watching to see how this process. goes so Brad if we look at the big. picture of what's going on right now I. wonder if the urgency of the climate. crisis you know just how acute it's. become is going to change how we think. about the risk benefit analysis of.

nuclear power you know the one that we. were talking about before like do the. tight regulations that made a lot of. sense in the 1980s and the 1990s we put. them in place for some very good reasons. do those now make less sense because of. The Real Pickle that we find ourselves. in climate wise so there's always going. to be demand for pretty strict. regulations around nuclear power just. because there are real risks involved. but I think what we've started to see in. Washington is both Republicans and. Democrats start to rethink whether we've.

struck the right. balance in June we saw congress with big. bipartisan majorities pass a bill aimed. at reforming the nuclear Regulatory. Commission to streamline approvals of. new reactor designs to increase Staffing. at the agency but also there was a. pretty striking provision in that bill. that basically told the NRC to consider. not just the safety of reactors but also.

the benefits of nuclear energy. technology to society and the idea is. that we should really weigh the risks. against the benefits of nuclear. power you know there are a lot of. challenges to building nuclear power. there are technical obstacles there are. Financial obstacles but if nuclear power. is going to make a comeback it will. probably require a big shift in how. people view the technology and how they. weigh the risks of the technology and I. think we're starting to see that.

[Music]. shift Brad thank you thank you so. much we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you should know. today on Sunday diplomats scrambled to.

contain hostilities between Israel and. Lebanon after Israeli forces hit Lebanon. with multiple strikes overnight in. response to a deadly rocket attack on. Thursday that hit a soccer field in an. Israeli controlled Town Israel blamed. Hezbollah an Iranian backed Lebanese. group for the attack on the Drew Arab. town of majal Shams which killed 12. people most of them children it was the. deadliest assault on Israeli controlled. territory since Israel and Hezbollah.

began exchanging missile and Rocket fire. in October the Israeli response appeared. to stop short of a major escalation but. there were still fears that the Fallout. from the rocket launch would lead to. allout. war. and and the flame has been lit for the. Paris games on Friday the 33rd Olympic. Games kicked off in.

[Music]. Paris hundreds of thousands of. Spectators braved heavy downpours to. line the banks of the river sen for the. first opening ceremony to take place. outside of a stadium your marks and. can't forget about China as the. competition got underway and it's the. first for Team USA in in Paris the US.

scored its first Olympic gold in. swimming for the men's. relay Macintosh takes the silver and lei. gets the bronze swimmer Katie Lei scored. her first medal in the 400 met. freestyle today's episode was produced. by Alex Stern Diana win and Sydney. Harper with help from Shannon Lynn it. was edited by Lexi Di and Brendan clink. BG contains original music by Rowan Nimo.

and Pat mccusker and was engineered by. Chris Wood our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Sabrina tavernes see you tomorrow. [Music].