A Guilty Verdict For a Mass Shooter’s Mother

from New York Times I'm Michael aaro. this is the. [Music]. daily a few days ago for the first time. an American Jury convicted a parent for. a mass shooting carried out by their. child my colleague Lisa Miller has been. reporting on the case from the beginning. and explains what the historic verdict. really means.

it's Thursday February. [Music]. 8th Lisa you came to the story as a. writer for New York Magazine two years. ago you just joined the New York Times I. did a couple of days ago basically and. you came to the story right after this. horrible shooting and long before.

any kind of trial was underway what was. it that Drew you to this particular case. there are so many mass shootings in the. United States well first and foremost I. have covered school shootings and so I'm. familiar with all of the pain and Agony. around these events I covered Sandy Hook. I covered Parkland so I've been immersed. in these cultures for a long time the. circumstances of this particular. shooting were highly unusual these. parents James and Jennifer crumble.

bought their son Ethan who was 15 years. old a gun on Black Friday the day after. Thanksgiving as an early Christmas. present the morning of the shooting they. were called to the school because the. child had been drawing these very. alarming. pictures they left the kid at school the. kid then shot up the school killing four. of his classmates and injuring seven. other people he was was captured and.

charged with 24 counts including. terrorism and charged as an adult the. parents were charged several days after. the shooting with involuntary. manslaughter the first time basically in. the era of mass shooting school. shootings that parents were held. responsible criminally responsible for. what their kid had done in school. shootings the parents are always sued by. the families it's normal but to make. their actions and inactions a crime was.

extraordinary and for me this raised all. of these questions about you know how. responsible is a parent for a child's. criminal acts and what is a parent. expected to know or not know about what. their teenager is doing thinking. planning what raises alarms what doesn't. raise alarm I mean all of these. questions are very compelling and murky. and they kind of get to the heart of.

what it means to be parent yep and so as. I'm thinking about all these big. questions I'm also talking to Legal. experts in Michigan about the. prosecutor's case and whether this was a. possible case to bring against these. parents James and Jennifer Crumbley. because what they were saying to me what. the legal experts were saying was that. there's this Bedrock principle in US law. which is I'm responsible for what I do. and you're responsible for what you do. so how do you put the crumbly parents in.

between Ethan who pulled the trigger and. killed four of his classmates and make. them criminally responsible for those. children's deaths especially when he'd. been charged as an adult so you're. saying from the very start you're. getting the sense from this reporting. that this is going to be an uphill. prosecution it's an Innovative. prosecution it's a bold prosecution it's. potentially a gamechanging prosecu in.

this era of mass shootings but just. practically speaking it's going to be. hard to get a guilty verdict yes and. then I went to the town where this. happened Oxford Michigan and when I got. there my overwhelming impression was. twofold that the town reviles these. parents H they are seen as Outsiders. irresponsible and it's a tiny.

22,000 people with four kids dead. everybody knows a family who suffered a. terrible loss and that is palpable it is. palpable in the courtroom in the hearing. I went to and it is palpable in every. interview with a parent I had that is. the first thing the second thing is that. everybody in town owns a gun everybody. was raised with guns and they talk a lot. about responsible gun ownership and so. the fact that this kid had access to.

this gun is negligence on the part of. the parents and I use the word. negligence in the Casual non-legal way. and so as I start watching the trial of. Jennifer Crumbley which started a couple. of weeks. ago I know these two things and they are. in opposition to each other one is that. the community is absolutely furious at. these parents and especially at the. mother and the other is the legal.

experts have told me that this is going. to be a really hard case to win right so. take us into the actual trial of. Jennifer Crumbley your honor calling. people vers Jennifer Crumbley case. number 22279 990 FH what's always been. so compelling to me about Jennifer. Crumbley as a character is that you can. see her in two entirely different lights. and the prosecution and the defense are. going to describe her complet completely. differently Jennifer Crumbley didn't.

pull the trigger that day but she is. responsible for those. deaths so the prosecution is painting a. picture of a reckless negligent parent. who is concerned about everything but. the care of her very disturbed son and. that she had every reason to know that. her son was very distressed and so so. what the prosecution has to do is prove.

what in the law is called foreseeability. the school shooter was in a downward. spiral that had begun months before. Jennifer Crumbley was aware of that that. Jennifer Crumbley both could have known. what her son was able to do and could. have foreen the harm he was going to. commit to others one theme will present. itself during the Sur it's just how.

senseless November 30th was and that's. because of all of the. easy ordinary things for someone to. do that nobody did the other legal term. that's important here is a term called. Ordinary care and what ordinary care. means in this case is that an ordinary. person in the same. circumstances would have taken steps to. intervene.

okay and how do they attempt to show. that in testimony right one of the first. things they do is they show that she. knew that her husband had bought their. son a gun they show that the gun was. sold with a cable lock and both her. husband and Ethan were given a pamphlet. about gun safety along with the gun and. then an ATF agent took the stand and.

testified that when police officers got. to the house after the shooting they. found that the gun safe was set to 0000. what's significant about 0000 uh that is. generally the factory default for a lot. of uh saves okay that the cable lock. that had been sold with the gun it looks. almost new had never been used M. Jennifer herself took Ethan to the. shooting range who's the surveillance of.

it shows uh Jennifer Crumbley and the. shooter entering the gun range on the. Saturday after they bought him the gun. round of it and then they proceed to. take turns firing the six hour pistol. that Ethan was very experienced with the. gun this was a. semi-automatic 9mm Sig sour and he fired. many rounds in what's called a shooter. stance in other words Jennifer crumbly.

would have understood that her son. because she was there was becoming quite. proficient yes in shooting a gun yes and. that there seemed to be a culture of l a. fair gun safety in the house and then. the next person the prosecution brings. on the stand is a sheriff's deputy who. has been through all the fam's texts. messages cell phone calls over the past. year before the and finds basically a.

documentary of family life you know. conversations about what's for dinner. who's doing what who's picking up who. but in the middle of all of those family. conversations on that same day did you. find any text messages from Jennifer's. son to her of a concerning nature this. is March 17th 2021 yes sir there are. some texts that show that Ethan is very.

distressed he says okay the house is now. haunted and then what some weird [ __ ]. just happens and now I'm scared he's. seeing things there's a demon in the. house it's throwing Bowls the word bowls. is in all caps he's freaked out and then. at the end of his description of this. alleged hallucination he writes can you. at least text. back can you at least text me back and. what happens the next response from the.

defendant to her son is when that two. days later four the prosecution shows. that she does not respond and in fact. what she's doing at the time is riding. horses and taking pictures of herself. riding horses and the prosecution wants. to show that her care for her horses. exceeds her care for her. son in addition. Ethan had one very very close friend his.

best friend and the communication. between Ethan and his friend was. constant at all hours of the day and. night and in those. Communications he told his friend that. he was falling apart the shooter said I. actually asked my dad to take me to the. doctor yesterday but he just gave me. some pills and told me to quote suck it. up he wasn't sleeping he was laughing. and crying in the shower he then says. like I am mentally and physically. dying he thought about calling 911 on.

himself and at one point he said he told. his parents that he wanted to go see a. doctor then he says my mom laughed when. I told. her there is no evidence that his mom or. dad saw the texts. between Ethan and his friend but the. prosecution is trying to show that. Ethan's mental state was so unraveled so. distressed. that he was.

completely forthcoming about how. terrible he felt and that he was asking. for. help how does the prosecution ultimately. handle this fateful day of the shooting. which you mentioned at the beginning of. our. conversation right well for the. prosecution that meeting at the school. is the cigra so on the morning of. November 30th 2021 Jennifer Crumbley is. at work and. sometime after 9:00 she gets a call from.

the guidance counselor at school and the. guidance counselor has texted her a. drawing that Ethan made on his geometry. worksheet that morning on the worksheet. Ethan has drawn a figure lying in a. puddle of blood with bullet holes he's. written help me I'm paraphrasing the. voices won't stop my life is useless. blood.

everywhere there's a drawing of a gun. that looks very much like the Sig sour. he and his father bought four days. before and Jennifer sees the drawing and. immediately texts her husband and says. you know emergency call me the guidance. counselor tells Jennifer that she needs. to go to the school right away they're. alarmed they're alarmed and and they go. to the guidance counselor's office where.

Ethan is sitting there waiting for them. inside the office the guidance counselor. testifies that Jennifer is cold she's. abrupt she doesn't give her son a hug. she isn't seemingly concerned in that. meeting the guidance counselor tells the. parents that he believes that Ethan is. having suicidal ideation and that he. needs counseling within 48 Hours sooner. if possible. and one of the points that the.

prosecutor makes is that neither James. nor Jennifer. raises the fact that they had just. bought Ethan a gun and that the gun. looks very much like the gun that he. drew on the geometry worksheet right in. his testimony the guidance counselor is. struck by the fact that Jennifer doesn't. try to elicit any explanations really.

from Ethan that they don't have any like. warm family. conversation that they don't act curious. about his mood or the worksheet that. there doesn't seem to be any real. interrogation of what is going on and. then there's a discussion about what to. do for the rest of the day and Jennifer. says well we need to get back to work. huh James is driving door dash at the.

time and the prosecution has also shown. that Jennifer's workplace is flexible. and she could easily take her kid home. Ethan says he wants to stay at school. and so the decision is made to keep. Ethan at school for the parents to go. back to. work and within 12 minutes James and. Jennifer leave the office so when you. describe this as the prosecutions.

cigra what I suspect you mean is that. this feels like the ultimate moment of. negligence on the part of Jennifer. Crumbley in the prosecution's telling. she is uniquely situated in this moment. to take care of her son to ask him about. the gun to intercede in a way that might. have prevented this from happening and. she did not and we all know what happens. next. yeah sometime around lunchtime Ethan.

goes into the bathroom with the gun in. his backpack and comes out. shooting and at around that time. James sees police cars screaming toward. the school and texts Jennifer and. Jennifer texts Ethan and what she says. is Ethan don't do.

[Music]. it and prosecution has always made the. case that this text from Jennifer to. Ethan shows that she knew on some level. what he was capable of doing and really. never intervened at all to prevent him. from doing. so.

[Music]. we'll be right. back so next of course comes the defense. in this case tell us about their. argument Smith would you like to make an. opening I would thank you Jennifer's. lawyer Shannon Smith is a very. theatrical showy performer who makes. references to herself and the messiness. of her own life all the time on my way.

to court today I blasted Taylor Swift to. warm up my voice and Cal my nerves and. there was a line in one of her songs. that summarized what this case is about. Band-Aids don't stop bullet holes and. that's what this case is about it's. about the prosecution attempting to put. a Band-Aid on problems that can't be. fixed with a Band-Aid and in her opening. statement Smith makes several points the.

prosecution has charged Jennifer. Crumbley with involuntary. manslaughter in an effort to make the. community feel better one is that the. community wants somebody to blame and. that that is. understandable but that none of those. problems will be solved by charging. Jennifer Crumbley with involuntary. manslaughter holding Jennifer.

responsible won't heal the wounds in the. town so that's the first thing she says. the other thing she says which is sort. of what the legal experts were saying to. me is that the crime is e and he is the. one as you will see from the evidence he. has plad guilty to the crime he has been. convicted of the crime he has been. sentenced and that it's not Jennifer's. crime and at the end of the day these. slivers of evidence will have no.

context and no. explanation and the third thing she says. is that what the prosecution has done is. sort of cherry-picked the most. egregious texts and phone calls and. images from a regular family's life but. like any of you who look back at text. messages sent a year. ago they may look bad without context. and explanation Smith is aware that the.

town that the community reviles the. crumblies and Jennifer in particular and. she pleads with the jury to try to see. things from her point of view as. difficult as that may be and so how does. the defense approach telling this other. version of Jennifer Crumbley hi can you. start by stating your name it's Jennifer. Crumbley so Jennifer is the only witness.

that Shannon Smith calls to the stand. and Shannon Smith tries to rebut Point. by point the prosecution's argument and. one of the most important things she has. to do is deal with how Ethan got the gun. are guns your thing not really no okay. who is responsible for storing the gun. my husband is okay and basically. Jennifer on the stand says she's not the. gun person in the house James is the gun. guy. yeah it was more his thing so I let him.

handle that I didn't feel comfortable. putting the lock thing on it he knows. how to use the guns he goes with Ethan. usually to the shooting range that this. trip to the shooting range that she took. with Ethan was just a one-off and that. she's not really interested in or. involved with guns or gun safety in her. house she's delegated that to her. husband okay what does Jennifer have to. say about. about the prosecution's kind of central.

claim beyond the gun that she was a. negligent mother that she was distracted. that she was unresponsive especially to. her son's seemingly you know open please. for help Jennifer on the stand refutes. that completely she calls herself a. helicopter parent our biggest struggle. with him were missing assignments that. was the one thing we battled all the. time she said she was in constant touch. with the school over Ethan's grades she.

was concerned about his grades she drove. him around she drove him to bowling he. he had bowling practices throughout the. week bowling matches and he worked. part-time in a diner that she was. extremely involved in his life and. Shannon introduced into evidence. Jennifer's Facebook pages which showed. kind of a happy family Halloween we grew. our own pumpkins um so we always carved. and carved our own p pumpkins and had a. whole bunch put around the house and.

it's normal normal family stuff did you. have um what about the specific idea. that Jennifer Crumbley. ignored the signs of Ethan's unraveling. there's that text about demons throwing. things in the house please respond can. you at least text back okay do you. recall this date on March 17th. 2021. it didn't stick out to me until this.

whole no I don't I I don't recall it. exactly right she insisted that there. was nothing there that concerned her why. didn't they stick out to you because it. wasn't it wasn't anything that was. anything serious it was um Ethan just. messing around you got to explain to the. jury how did Ethan mess around um so. he's been convinced our house has been. haunted since 2015 so was built in 1920.

she talked about how Ethan had been. given a Ouija board for Christmas. earlier that year and from there there. was this sort of longstanding joke SL. prank about there being ghosts in the. house like our house ghost we called it. my son named it Boris Johnson my husband. named it Victoria it was just kind of it. was just a little phase and they all. talked about the ghost as if it were. real and a kind of joking prankster way. that it was a kind of play that was how.

they talked so this kind of stuff. between you your son and your husband. was like typical joking around kind of. stuff it was and in her testimony. Jennifer crumblyy also said that she. never thought that her son needed to see. a mental health. professional that nothing in his. behavior made her think that he needed. one. even if the jury accepts that argument.

there's still the question of course of. why Jennifer gumbley did what she did or. what she didn't do when she was called. to the school on the day of the shooting. so how does she talk about that and how. does the defense lawyer present it so in. her testimony Jennifer says that she. feels somewhat relieved after that. meeting um I thought he wasn't get in. trouble for what he drew on his. assignment as a expecting like a. disciplinary.

meeting she rushed to the school worried. that her kid was in. trouble and she's relieved that Ethan. isn't in trouble Shannon her lawyer. notes that everybody in the room is a. mandatory reporter which means that if. they thought that Ethan was a danger to. himself or to others that they could. call the police or call a state social. worker and take take him into custody. and nobody does that it it was pretty it.

was pretty nonchalant it was pretty. brief um he said that my son told him. that he was feeling sad over the death. of a dog that we had um so we talked we. talked a little bit about that and so. there's this sense at least from. Jennifer's point of view that the. urgency the immediate urgency has been. diffused and that everybody can go on. with their day did you feel like you. were taking the position of I am leaving. him at school whether he can be here or. not no absolutely not my son gets very.

stressed out when he does virtual school. so we agree that it might stress him out. more to do his school remotely the rest. of the day um that the decision to leave. Ethan at school was a decision for his. safety for his health and that they. would deal with what they needed to deal. with an on H does Jennifer's lawyer. bring up the question of the gun the. fact as the prosecution has claimed that.

Jennifer Crumley does not Bridge the. informational Gap that the school. officials would have had in that moment. that perhaps that drawing Ethan makes on. his geometry worksheet is a reference to. a gun that Jennifer knows the family. possesses Jennifer says that she was not. thinking about there being any danger. from the gun mhm you know and Shannon. her lawyer continually says that the.

murders are facts in hindsight do you. believe that you knew or had reason to. know your son was a danger to anyone. else no um as a parent you spend your. whole life trying to protect your C your. child from other dangers you never would. think you have to protect your child. from harming somebody else that was the. hardest thing I had to. the stomach is that my child harmed and.

killed other. people so in a sense what the defense is. doing here is saying there is no. foreseeability when it comes to Jennifer. Crumbley yes jury in retrospect this all. looks perhaps kind of cut and dry these. texts these conversations the purchase. of the gun all of it and they're saying. for her in reality in real time it. wasn't cut and dry at all and she did. not think her son was capable of this or.

that there was anything to stop no and. in Shannon's closing remarks she says. this she says Jennifer one of the first. things she says when she goes to the. police station after the shooting is you. know he's a good kid he's never gotten. in trouble so as we now know the jury. rejects this version of Jennifer. Crumbley the one who is not negligent. the one who is a helicopter parent and. who couldn't foresee what was happening. and they find her guilty what was your.

reaction when you heard that news well. as I said I really struggled with you. know the tension between this fragile. case that the prosecutors were building. that everybody said was a fragile case. and the. overpowering desire of the community to. see Jennifer Crumbley in. prison and the law is there both to.

provide guardrails on Behavior but also. to reflect a community's will in some. way well what does that mean for the. future of this type of prosecution this. was a first it may not be a last but it. also I think is a question of whether it. will become common after a school. shooting after a mass shooting involving.

a young person for a prosecutor to go. after the parents I mean are the. circumstances here so unique that this. does feel like a new template or an. anomaly if I had to pick one of those I. would lean toward anomaly for several. reasons one is that the circumstances of. this case. are so unusual and also that lots and.

lots and lots of kids die from gunshot. wounds every year I think the number I. have is more than 4,000 in 2021 more. kids die from gunshot wounds than. anything else in the country anything. else in the country including car. crashes so is this how we're going to. start addressing the problem of guns and. gun violence in America by holding. individual parents accountable I mean.

maybe it will work as a deterrent but it. does seem to. be trying to circumnavigate the more. direct approach which is to control. access to guns to control guns to. control who's buying the guns well. what's the risk in circumnavigating what. is clearly an. intransigent gun control debate in this. country that's not going anywhere right. the risk is that you start making.

parents. responsible criminally responsible not. just ethically or morally responsible. for things that it's very difficult to. make parents responsible for. especially if the kids are teenagers and. able to deceive lie manipulate have. Secret Lives we all know what teenagers. are like right and some of the legal. experts I spoke to brought up comparable. situations such as you lend your kid a.

car the kid gets drunk and kill somebody. are you criminally responsible for that. it just seems like a slippery slope and. the legal experts are concerned about. this is what you're saying that a. verdict like this it might be. emotionally satisfying but as satisfying. as a verdict like this might be for some. legally kind of spiritually it's.

potentially quite. problematic yes I think Parenting. teenagers is really difficult everybody. will agree and there's a big distance. between being an awful mom and being a. criminally responsible one and one of. the questions I have is you know if you. start using the crumbly case as a. precedent for other parents you know how.

many parents who are good parents will. get caught in this. net I spoke to sue cold for the story in. New York Magazine she was the mother of. Dylan cold who was one of the Coline. Shooters and she was sort of the. opposite of Jennifer Crumbley she was up. in the middle of the night when her son. came home from prom and they she was a.

invested member of the community and she. didn't allow guns in the house and she. told me not only did it still happen but. she had no idea none the shooting came. as a total shock and surprise to her and. those boys had been planning it for. months and 6 months after Coline she was. taken to the police station where she. was shown tapes that her son and the. other Shooter had made and she said she.

didn't recognize. him and there's all of this evidence. that parents are actually some of the. least insightful observers of their. children. 50% of kids who make suicide attempts. it's found that their parents don't know. have no idea there was an FBI white. paper on S of the profile of the mass. shooter and it said that parents are.

some of the least reliable. reporters of the propensity to do. violence like that and I guess one of. the things that the crumbly case makes. me wonder. is if this is the model for the future. is it asking. parents to be more cleare eyed about. their children than is actually possible.

[Music]. well Lisa thank you very much we. appreciate it thank you. [Music]. Michael the manslaughter trial of Ethan. crumley's Father James is scheduled to. begin early next. [Music]. month.

we'll be right. [Music]. back here's what else you need to know. today this is the choice Republicans. face. today they can either choose what's good. for the country's National interest or. they can choose what's good at least in. their minds for Donald Trump. on Wednesday Senate Republicans rejected.

a bill that did exactly what many of. them had said they wanted link billions. of dollars in Aid to Ukraine and Israel. with stricter security measures at the. US Mexico border the vote came after. former president Trump asked Republicans. to kill the legislation the vote marks. the official demise of a rare bipartisan. effort backed by President Biden and. Senate leaders from from both parties. that for months appeared to be headed.

for. passage. and Israel has dashed hopes that a. long-term ceasefire with Hamas might be. close at hand on Wednesday it rebuffed. the terms of an offer from Hamas to. release Israeli hostages and end the. fighting in. Gaza during a news conference Israeli. leader Benjamin yahu called hamas's. proposal quote delusional and said that.

Israel would keep fighting until it. achieves total victory over. Hamas today's episode was produced by. Olivia Alex Stern muj zi and Shannon. Lynn with help from Kate lessy it was. edited by Patricia willins with help. from Devon Taylor contains original. music by Marian Lozano Dan Powell and. alishaa e and was engineered by Chris. Wood our theme music is by Jim brunberg.

and Ben Lanser of. [Music]. wonderly that's it for the daily I'm. Michael buaro see you. [Music]. tomorrow.