A Disastrous Day in Court for Trump

From the New York Times, I'm Michael. Bubaro. This is the Daily. [music]. On Monday afternoon, a federal judge. threw out the criminal charges [music]. that the Trump administration brought. against two of the president's biggest. enemies. today, the unexpected. technicality [music] that doomed the. cases and what the ruling will mean for. Trump's ambitious secondterm [music].

campaign of retribution. It's [music] Tuesday, November 25th. Develin, thank you for, as you always. do, dropping everything and coming into. the studio on a breaking news night. >> Thanks for having me. >> It's old hat for you at this point. >> Always tired, never bored. That's my. life. >> Amen. So, I think it's fair to say that.

nothing embodied the progress that. President Trump has been making in his. campaign of retribution against his. enemies, so much as the indictments of. James Comey, the former FBI director, and Leticia James, the current attorney. general of New York. And just a couple. hours ago, a judge tossed out both of. them in one fell swoop, >> right? Because this retribution campaign.

by the president has delivered some. incredible scalps for the president and. what he wants, but it did so in a very. legally risky way, a very, I think a lot. of people would say factually risky way. And as important as these cases are and. as alarming as it has been to some. people to see the president publicly. order prosecution of people he doesn't.

like. I think the unanswered question until. Monday was would the court system go. along with this? Would. >> judges go along with this? And the first. cut, and it's not the going to be the. last cut, but the first answer to that. question is an emphatic no. >> And this may be the first cut, but it's. a deep cut to the president when it. comes to this idea of retribution.

>> It it's a deep cut to the president and. the administration in a couple of ways. first in the sense that he has lost for. the time being at least these two. centerpiece cases of his drive for. retribution. And it's also a deep cut to. the degree that he is being told that. the way he's running the Justice. Department is not appropriate under the. law is not what the law says you can do. with the Justice Department. M. >> and another way to think about the.

significance of this moment is Trump has. publicly declared time and again that. people he doesn't like are criminals and. that they should be prosecuted. A lot of. times the facts in the law of what he's. talking about don't really stand up to. scrutiny. And one of the I think the. great tests of this moment for the legal. system and for the administration is to. what degree does Trump's version of. reality impose its will on the court. system. The courts are about.

establishing facts and the courts are. about following the law. Right? The. court's reality here is that these cases. were deeply flawed. So to that point, let's talk about how these two cases got. to the point where they could be at the. very front end of the system so easily. tossed out and tossed out so quickly. We've got the Comey case and the James.

case. One involves leaking, the other. involves mortgages. Just briefly remind. us about the legal basis for both these. cases. >> Right. So, let's take a look at who each. of these people are and and what they're. accused of. So, when it comes to James. Comey, he was obviously the FBI director. when Trump became president the first. time, and he oversaw the FBI as it. investigated Russian election. interference, as it investigated the.

Trump campaign, >> which made him enemy number one for. Trump forever. >> Right. Exactly. I think it's safe to say. that there's no one Trump despises more. than James Comey. And if you fast. forward now to 2025, there has been a building pressure on. the Justice Department to investigate. and prosecute Comey. And what you saw. over the summer was career prosecutors. taking a look at the evidence that had.

been gathered on a range of issues, but. primarily a question of whether he may. have lied in congressional testimony. from 2020. >> Career prosecutors look at that and say. there's no case here, >> right? And then in very short order, the. person running that office is forced out. who was a Trump pick themselves and. serving in that role on a temporary. basis. And in his place, the. administration puts Lindseay Halligan.

Lindsay Halligan is a longtime Trump aid. who had no prosecutorial experience. before she was given this assignment to. become the US attorney in the Eastern. District of Virginia. >> Right. Trump cycles through as many. prosecutors basically as it takes until. he can get someone a loyal aid howigan. it turns out who would bring a charge. against Comey and not just bring a case. against James Comey but also bring a. case against Leticia James the New York.

attorney general. The Trump history on. Leticia James is that she pursued him in. court. She sued him in New York and won. a verdict for hundreds of millions of. dollars over business fraud related to. Trump's businesses. >> And he has been mad about it for a very. long time. >> Again, you get to this summer and. Justice Department officials are under. pressure to charge Leticia James with. some sort of mortgage fraud. And.

eventually once Lindseay Halligan is in. place, Halligan brings an indictment. >> So Halligan ends up being two for two. And it's not so much that she's. evaluating what look like super strong. legal cases against Comey or James. It's that she very much wants to fulfill. the president's desire for an. indictment. That seems to be more or. less the conventional wisdom from the. minute these cases are brought. >> Well, that's certainly what it looks. like based on what we know. And what we. know is that career prosecutors said,

"Not only do we think this is not a good. case, we don't even think this is a. strong enough case to merit presenting. it to a grand jury.". >> However, a grand jury in both cases. indictes. >> Correct. And that becomes one of the. bases for this challenge because one of. the things that's very unusual about. both these cases is that a new. prosecutor parachutes in Lindseay Hallan. and within a matter of days delivers.

indictments. essentially on her own that her own. office didn't think had merit. So both. Leticia James and James Comey fight back. on a number of legal arguments, but they. share one argument in particular, which. is that Lindsay Hallan's appointment was. never lawful. Is is just. >> not right. She shouldn't be the US. attorney, can't be the US attorney. >> Why? >> Because normally what's supposed to. happen is that a US attorney is supposed.

to be nominated by a president, confirmed by a Senate. Mhm. >> And if for whatever reason that can. happen, you know, there's a process to. pick a temporary replacement for a. limited period of time. And as you might. remember, I already said there was. someone already serving in that role on. a temporary basis. So Lindseay Halligan. becomes sort of a double temporary US. attorney. The defense argument here is. actually a pretty simple one, which is. like you can't just keep adding. temporaries on top of temporaries. At. the same time that lawyers for Comey and.

lawyers for James are fighting about the. Hallagan appointment, which is kind of a. technical issue, >> Mhm. >> they're also waging a much bigger fight. in some ways over the very premise of. what just happened. Meaning they're. arguing that this is vindictive. prosecution. And they're arguing that. but for Trump's dislike of these two. human beings for political reasons, there would never have been a criminal. case against either of them. And that's.

obviously an important issue in the. whole larger picture of what's happening. at the Justice Department, what's. happening at the Trump administration, right? They're making an argument that. really gets to the heart of both cases. basically. Does it have any merit? Is it. simply an act of revenge? And if it's. just an act of revenge, isn't that. illegal? >> Right. And that really came to a head. last week in court when Comey's lawyers. made their case to the judge that this.

was just a vindictive prosecution that. this case existed because President. Trump wanted him punished. >> Well, just describe this hearing. So, uh, this was a hearing that did not go. well for Lindsay Halligan, [clears throat] and the judge had a lot. of pointed questions about the grand. jury, how the grand jury actually ended. up voting on this. And at one point, the. judge specifically called Lindseay. Hallan up to answer his questions. directly as opposed to having a.

different, more experienced federal. prosecutor answer the questions. Mhm. >> And in that line of questioning, Halligan and her associate conceded that. the written final version of the. indictment wasn't exactly the same. paperwork that the grand jury had voted. on. >> And just explain why that would be a big. deal. >> Well, it's it's a technical thing, but. obviously a grand jury is supposed to. vote on the indictment that gets filed. to the court. But Lindseay Halligan's.

answers seem to raise new doubts as to. whether the grand jury had actually. approved the final version of the case. against Jim Comey. So much so that. Comey's own lawyers immediately popped. up and said, "Your honor, what they just. said is another reason to dismiss this. case.". >> Gotcha. >> Halligan and the Justice Department's. argument is that this is a a technical. procedural thing. It doesn't affect any. of the substance. That's their argument. to those concerns. >> Right. But to those of us watching from. home, it felt like if anything was going.

to unwind this case, it was probably. going to be a ruling of vindictive. prosecution based off of Lindseay. Haligan's very complicated testimony in. that hearing. >> Right. I think that hearing really. raised expectations that [music] there. was going to be potentially a seismic. ruling about the whole question, the. whole issue of vindictive prosecution. [music].

But in fact, on Monday, the first. judge's opinion dismissing these cases. came on the technical issue of Lindseay. Halligan's appointment. >> [music]. [music]. >> We'll be right back.

So Devlin, walk us through this ruling. that ultimately determines that Lindseay. Halligan is not legally able to have. brought these indictments against either. James Comey or Leticia James. >> Right. The judge basically agrees with. the arguments Comey and others have made. that you can't have essentially a double. temporary US attorney. And the judge. says that it simply can't be right that.

when you don't follow the normal process. for putting a US attorney into that job, that would sort of negate the whole. purpose of having a rule about this to. begin with. >> Mhm. >> So what the judge said was this. It. would mean the government could send any. private citizen off the street into the. grand jury room to secure an indictment. so long as the attorney general gives. her approval after the fact. M. >> that cannot be the law, the judge wrote. And what she means by that is if you.

were to allow this system to continue to. the obvious conclusion, you really. wouldn't have any more Senate confirmed. US attorneys. It would just be the. president picks whoever they want. whenever they want and they they just. keep doing that. Basically, this judge. is saying that the administration has so. diluted the normal process of picking a. US attorney who is of course the local. embodiment of the Justice Department. that the process is completely. disconnected from its original intent.

And like the judge said, basically the. president could put any old person in. that job now. >> Right. And as part of the legal basis. for making this decision, she cites. explicitly a decision handed up last. year by a different judge in a different. courtroom named Ailen Cannon, who. dismissed the Trump charges for. mishandling classified information. because that judge found that the. prosecutor in that case, a guy named. Jack Smith, was improperly appointed. M.

>> and it's an amazing bit of courtroom. karma that that legal argument has now. been used to dismiss an indictment that. the president demanded. >> Right? It's the ultimate legal boomerang. because the argument used here to. dismiss a case the president wants. against his enemies was used by a judge. to dismiss a case against the president. It seems like the judge is saying to the. Trump administration, "You should.

understand this argument full well. You. won one of your biggest legal victories. based on it.". >> Exactly. And and I'll say, having. attended the hearing that led to this. decision, she brought up that canon. ruling on Jack Smith in the hearing. itself, she flagged it as, "Well, don't. I have to follow the example set by. Judge Cannon in USV Trump?". >> Mhm. And clearly the Trump. administration did not have a good. answer to that question. >> So Deon, now that a judge has dismissed.

the indictments of Comey and James based. on this more technical argument, what. happens to the more kind of spiritual. argument of vindictive prosecution? Does. that ruling ever happen or once the case. is dismissed, does that ruling just get. tossed aside? I think that issue is just. sort of in a coma unless and until this. case is revived without a higher court. deciding no this indictment should exist.

again I don't think you can have. arguments or have a ruling about the. vindictive prosecution question. >> So for now that argument's in limbo but. I wonder if you can help us understand. whether any of this case will ever come. out of your so-called coma. Could the. administration try to bring these. indictments back again? >> Well, they certainly could because the. judge dismissed both of them with what's. called without prejudice. There are two. ways to dismiss a case. One is with.

prejudice, which means you cannot refile. this no matter what. >> And the other is without prejudice. And. so, which means you can refile. And. these cases were dismissed without. prejudice. >> Got it. So there is still an avenue. here, at least in theory, for. prosecutors to try again. >> I think as far as reviving these cases, I have no doubt the desire is there on. Trump's part. I think the question is if. you're the Justice Department, if you're. Trump's Justice Department, how do you.

balance the desire to appeal, the desire. to fight this decision with the more. practical question of okay, so if. Lindseay Hallan isn't the US attorney, who is. >> and who exists within the government. that might even be willing to try to. take a second shot at the grand jury. with these cases. this becomes. potentially another search for the. prosecutor who will you know pursue this. case yet again. >> and Delin in all likelihood it's.

probably going to be another temporary. US attorney because as you just said the. career prosecutors don't want to bring. these cases so is it possible that the. basis for tossing out these cases as. technical as it might seem becomes a. broader rejection of the entire Trump. administration strategy of picking. pretty inexperienced allies of the. president to bring the cases against his. enemies that he wants that the rest of.

the Justice Department system is really. resistant to bringing. It's entirely possible and and so there. are a lot of question marks here as to. what will the administration's next. steps be because they have pushed the. department into a bunch of situations. and scenarios that really haven't been. contemplated before. Well, I wonder. where this ends up leaving the. president's vision for retribution. because it was always our understanding. that in the second term he learned from.

the mistakes of the first and in the. first term he really struggled to carry. out retribution. In the second term he. was going to appoint people who were. willing to do what he wanted against his. enemies and who were supposed to be. qualified to do it. And this ruling. suggests that's not really the case. So, this is obviously a very important set. of rulings by this judge, and I think. they represent a major setback for the. president's retribution campaign against.

his enemies. But I also think it's a. trap to think that in court that the. thing that just happened is the most. important thing is the decisive thing. M. >> and so I don't think this is going to be. the final word or the final indicator of. of anything to do with the president's. retribution campaign. For instance, if. you look in Florida, the Justice. Department is putting together an. investigative prosecutive effort that's.

trying to pull together all these. different parts of what Trump supporters. argue is a great conspiracy against him, >> stretching back to his first campaign. for president and trying to build that. effort. >> specifically under the opaces of Judge. Ailen Cannon, the the judge who threw. out the charges against Donald Trump. >> Right? The thinking here seems to be if. you can't find a prosecutor who will do. this work of retribution, then go find a.

judge who will. >> Right? [music]. Which is why I say I think it's a. mistake to assume that this ruling will. stop efforts at retribution, efforts at. payback, because I think the Trump. administration's made clear they're. going to keep looking for cases [music]. and places to pursue retribution. >> [music]. >> Well, Din, thank you very much. Thank. you. >> I'm grateful that the court ended the. case against me, which was a prosecution.

based on malevolence and incompetence. and a reflection of what the Department. of Justice has become under Donald. Trump, which is heartbreaking. >> On Monday night, James Comey released a. video about the dismissal of his. indictment. In it, Comey said that he. expects President Trump to come after. him again, but that he believes an. independent federal judiciary would. protect him and anyone else targeted for.

retribution by the president. This case mattered to me personally, obviously, but it matters most because a. message has to be sent [music] that the. president of the United States cannot. use the Department of Justice [music] to. target his political enemies. I don't. care what your politics are. You have to. see that is fundamentally unamerican. [music] and a threat to the rule of law. that keeps all of us free. [music].

We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to [music]. know today. In its latest act of. retribution, the Trump administration. opened an investigation [music]. of Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of. Arizona over allegations that his. participation in a video statement. [music] to members of the US military. was an act of official misconduct.

[music] Kelly, a retired Navy captain. and astronaut, was one of six [music]. Democratic lawmakers who, in the video, told American troops that they have the. right to ignore illegal orders. issued. by Trump. A message that [music] has. infuriated the president. As a result, the Defense Department is [music] now. investigating whether Kelly violated the. military's code of justice, which. applies to retired service [music]. members. In theory, Kelly could be.

recalled to active duty or disciplined, a possibility that legal [music] experts. said was both remote and legally. dubious. >> [music]. >> Today's episode was produced by Relle. [music] Bonja, Diana Wyn, Mary Wilson, and Rob Zipco. It was edited by Lexi. [music] Diao and Rachel Quester. Contains music by Alicia and Marian.

Lozano and was engineered by Chris Wood. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael. Lavaro. See you tomorrow.