A Couple Breaks Up. Who Gets Custody of Their Embryos?

From the New York [music] Times, I'm. Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily. In recent years, more and more Americans. [music] have been turning to IVF to have. children, which means more and more. embryos are being stored in fertility. clinics all over the country. And that. [music] has made one question. increasingly urgent. What should happen. to those embryos if a [music] couple. breaks up? In much of the country, the.

legal system has no clear answer to that. question. Nor [music] does it have clear. rules for weighing one person's desire. to become a parent against another. person's desire not to. Today, [music]. my colleague Caroline Kitner tells us. the story of one couple that found. themselves caught in this exact limbo. [music]. >> [music]. >> It's Thursday, September 10th.

Caroline, you recently chronicled this. really heart-wrenching fight over. embryos that this one couple had made. when they were still together. And the. fight and how it unfolded touched on all. kinds of issues that really felt very. much of our time like modern fertility. treatments, the question of when life. begins, the shape of what a family looks. like in our day and age. So tell us how. all of that fits into what you cover and.

how you came to the story. So, I cover a. really broad range of issues related to. women and families, but I've been paying. particular attention over the last year. or so to IVF because we've been hearing. about that more and more from our. politicians, especially. I mean, the. Trump administration has talked about. IVF more than any other president ever, starting with his campaign promise to. make IVF free and widely accessible for. all. And as we're hearing more about.

IVF, as more and more families are. turning to IVF to have children, I think. that there are a lot of really new, complicated, and totally fascinating. questions. around life when you engineer it in a. lab. >> I think most of us are familiar with the. broad outlines of IVF. Like IVF is a. process that helps people have children, right? But when you talk about these.

questions that it raises as more and. more people are doing it, what. specifically about IVF is at issue here. >> So IVF or in vitro fertilization is a. process by which egg and sperm are. combined together to create an embryo in. a lab outside of the uterus. And often. embryos are frozen and stored for future. use. And there are a lot of murky gray. areas that people are just starting to.

explore and think about differently. One. of which is the question of what happens. to those embryos if a couple breaks up? Who has custody of the potential for. life? >> And I recently came across a case out of. New York that I think really captured a. lot of these dilemmas. and tell us about. the couple at the center of that case. >> So, the woman is Aaron Miller and the.

man is Adam Rubin. Adam declined an. interview with me, but he did provide. answers to a detailed list of questions. that I sent him and he also outlined his. point of view in extensive affidavit. that he filed for the case. >> [music]. >> I did however spend a lot of time with. Aaron and talk to her for many hours. about her story. >> My name is Aaron Alice Millander. >> Aaron is a lawyer. She is 47 years old.

>> This would be a very different. discussion if I was 27 and not 47. But he met me at almost 40. He knew what. [snorts and music] the stakes were. We. both did. And I think that has to be. considered. And I think Aaron is really. still running back over in her mind the. conversations they had, the heartbreak. that they experienced together, remembering especially I think the.

commitment she said they made about the. family that they wanted to build. [music]. >> Erin, I I want to start by getting us to. travel back in time a little bit. Take. me back to the first moment you remember. wanting to be a mom. [sighs]. >> Now, I don't know if it was ever as. personal or specific as wanting to be a. mom. I I think I knew from a very early.

age I wanted a family. >> So, Aaron, she told me her desire to. have children [snorts] and a family. really came from her own childhood. My parents had gotten divorced when I. was two and I grew up with my dad. From. age 2 to 12, it was just me and my dad. against the world. You know, her parents. got divorced pretty early in her life. She lived with her dad for a long time. >> My hero had a very close relationship.

with him. >> But I missed my mom. you know, I saw. other friends and relatives who had what. you see as a traditional family, and I. wanted that. So, the goal was always to. recreate that whole family that I didn't. have as a young child. And I think I. actually had a really good idea of of. how I wanted that to look. I knew I. wanted. >> But one thing that Aaron remembers her. mom saying to her was, "Don't get.

married too young. You have plenty of. time." My mom had gotten married young. around 20. I know there were some things. she felt like she missed out on. >> that she regretted and she urged me not. to rush into it. >> And so Aaron really took that to heart. She got out of law school, became a. lawyer. >> I did want to make sure that I was. financially stable before I had kids. >> She's very focused on her career. And. >> I kind of told myself at 26 that I'd. give it a good 10 years before I started. to like worry. She figures like I've got.

almost 10 years [music] before I need to. start like fretting about this. Right. >> Sure. >> The medical guidance at the time, you. know, 35 is when they start calling you. a geriatric pregnancy, which is I think. a little bit of a cruel term. But my. understanding was that's when medically. there become concerns about fertility. And I figured, well, until then, I'll. just let life play out and see how it. goes. >> [music]. >> That's not to say that she doesn't date.

She does and she dates very. intentionally. >> You know, the early as was the rise of. dating apps, okay Cupid and e-harmony. And I was on them. I tried them, but I. always wondered why they don't just have. singles night at the laundromat like at. places you need to be anyway. Like, can. you just put all of the single people. together? And so I decided I would try. to engineer that myself. Erin told me this story that I really. think gives [music] you a very good. sense of who she is.

>> Tell us. >> She wrote an ad for herself that she put. on Craigslist. There was a Container. Store near my office. I [music] was, you. know, in the early days of building my. first apartment in New York. So, there. was always some sort of hanger organizer. that I needed. And I was like, you know, two birds, one stone. [music] I can go. get some errands done. Maybe I meet a. cute guy. She said, "I'm going to be at the. Container Store from say 8:00 p.m. to. 9:00 p.m. on a Tuesday night. Go to the.

Container Store and walk up to the. prettiest girl you see and I can't wait. to meet you.". >> Oh, wow. >> Not [music] that I by a mile think that. I am the prettiest girl in New York. City, but I figured that was a good way. to control for well, okay, this is the. person who will find me attractive. She. told me she wanted to meet someone. organically doing the tasks that she. normally does walking around a store. [music]. >> Like the Container Store is fine. Let's. see what your philosophy of organization. is. And if we [music] could build a. compatible home together, do we agree on.

the way the toilet paper should go on. the roll? Like that's make or break. I. mean, to be honest, it does not sound. too far removed from all these creative. ways that single people are trying to. meet people these days who are desperate. to get off the apps, for instance. It's. like absolutely. >> anybody who's ever joined a run club. knows this. >> 100%. [music]. >> So, did this work, Eron? Did you find a. guy that you were looking for at the. Container Store? >> No, I No, I did not. I mean, I kept.

myself entertained and I was like, you. know, my time will come. >> But Aaron gets to her mid-30s and the. guy has not appeared yet. and she starts to look around at her. friends and the people in her circle. And. >> as time marches on, when I started to. get to be about 37, 38, then you really. start doing the math and it's kind of. like, okay, when. >> she realizes she stopped going to. weddings and started going to like. toddlers birthday parties and.

>> it starts to get discouraging. >> She said it started to feel like a game. of musical chairs. >> Yeah. Everybody had their chair and. there's nowhere for her to sit. >> Well, how does she eventually meet Adam? >> So, they meet in 2018 through a mutual. friend from a book club. >> I met him the oldfashioned way, which I. loved. >> He works at an HVAC company. He helps. run the HVAC company. He's about to turn. 37 when they meet. She's about to turn. 39. >> We had really good conversation. I think.

uh we talked and watched basketball for. probably 5 hours before we were like, "Oh yeah, we meant to get dinner.". And [music] I think right away it's. really easy. We were just hysterically laughing like. the kind of inappropriate laughter that. you usually don't want to do in a nice. restaurant. First of all, I couldn't remember the. last time I got 7 hours into a date and. was still enjoying myself. I remember. thinking at that moment like, wow, this. is this is an amazing sign. Like, this.

is the kind of laughter you share with a. best friend. >> And then a couple months in, they're. going to have sex for the first time. A. girl's got to eat. I uh I was not. entirely celibate in my 30s. Um but I'd. been very careful in my younger days. about not accidentally getting pregnant. And. >> right as they are in the heat of the.

moment, >> the first time we were intimate, I was. very clear about the fact that. >> I was 39, I did eventually want. children. Aaron offers the fact that. she is not on birth control. And she. says, "You should know that if we got. pregnant, I would want to keep it." Hm. >> So, by that time, I was starting to have. a solid feeling about his character and. our compatibility. And I don't know, as I got older, the.

downsides of getting pregnant by. accident started to be outweighed by the. fear of not ever getting pregnant, I. think, is what it was. >> She's very upfront with him, and she. says, "At this point in my life, I. really want to have a kid." I still. didn't want to get pregnant by accident. I wanted to be intentional about it, but. I just wanted to be clear with him that. if something happened, I was at the. point where I would want to keep a child. regardless. And I disclosed that before.

we were intimate because I wanted to. make sure that he felt the same way. And. I felt like if he didn't, then that. would be very telling of where he stood. on having children. >> And just to be clear, she barely knows. him at this point, right? So, this. really underscores how much she wants a. child that she's basically willing to. have one with a stranger. >> I wouldn't say he's a stranger at this. point. I think they're about two months. into their relationship. >> Okay, you and I can agree to disagree. about whether that qualify as stranger. visav [laughter] whether a person is. going to be the parent of your child,

but continue. >> Fair enough. Well, Aaron, you know, she. has thought through the fact that even. if they weren't going to have this. lifelong romance, she could see having a. child that they co-parent together. And. ultimately, you know, as they spend more. time together, it does become clear that. they both want to partner in kids. And. if there was a moment where I was really. started to feel sure that this was.

somebody I wanted to build a life with, I think it was that first fall about 6 7. months in, my father had gotten ill and. I moved him to New York. And the way he. took care of my dad really told me a lot. about how he felt about family. And as. time goes on, Aaron sees Adam really. showing up for her in his beautiful ways. that she loves, particularly around her. dad. He helped me load up a U-Haul with.

furniture to get my dad settled in a. comfortable home. And I have a picture. of Adam's legs sticking out from under a. couch. It's just his lower half with him. uh putting together this couch for my. dad. And I remember looking down and. just thinking, that's that's a real man. Like that's that's the kind of guy you. marry. [music] And Aaron just thinks to. herself, "Yeah, he is loving me in the. way that I really want to be loved." I.

left out the part about the happy trail. There's also like a happy trail in that. picture. And it was just it was hot. Honestly, I'm like, here he is doing man. things with his tools, putting together. a sofa for my dad. Like I think that's. my guy. >> [music]. >> But I think the timelines are a little. off. I told him, I was like, "Hey, you know, I'm ready for this next step cuz I'm 40. and I would like to have children and I.

would like to have them with you and I. think this could be great, but if that's. not where you're at, I really need to. know.". >> And at a certain point, she says to him, "Look, I can't waste one more day if I. want to have children. And if he's not. on board with that, she was out. >> You know, I want time for a relationship. to be established and to develop and. mature, but that butts up against some. biological realities of how much time. you really have to not only feasibly.

have a child and carry a pregnancy, but. to do it safely. >> And he's not ready. And and they. actually break up. And then. about five or six months later, he came. back and changed his mind. Said he. really wanted to have a future with me, but ultimately it worked out. He. proposed in September of 2020, and in. September 2021, they get married. >> You know, we had both waited so long to.

find our person, and we were like, we. did it. So, okay, Caroline, at this. point in the story, things seem to be. going pretty well for Aaron and Adam. Where are they in terms of their plans. to have children? >> Well, we always knew that we were going. to start as soon as we could after we. got married, cuz at that point, I was. 42. >> When Aaron goes to the doctor to get. checked out, >> the panic had kind of officially set in. Uh, especially since I had received an.

infertility diagnosis. They actually. tell her that she has some issues with. infertility. >> and I was feeling the changes myself in. my own body. What I later learned were. symptoms of pmenopause but at the time. was just a vague sense of my cycle is. different. My body feels different. Something is changing. >> And they start IVF. >> Adam is very supportive. He was very. involved in the doctor's appointments.

and the shots and. >> he's helping her with everything she. needs. >> He definitely I mean he more than showed. up. >> But pretty quickly things start to get. more complicated. They find out that from the IVF process. they only have three embryos they can. use and one of them has some. abnormalities. >> Mhm. >> I mean the anxiety had ratcheted up. about five more notches. And in the same. period, her dad, who she is just so. close to, >> my dad had a severe stroke that left him.

in need of 24-hour care, >> his health is taking a turn for the. worse. [music]. >> And it pushed our timeline back, just. getting him somewhere where he was safe. >> And then, so by the time we transferred. the first embryo, it was a full year. after we had created it. >> They do their first embryo transfer to. try to place the embryo inside of. Aaron's uterus. You know, I was really. doing my best. We were really hopeful. >> They do that with the strongest of all. the embryos. [music]. >> And they find out that the transfer.

failed. >> Um, it was incredibly heavy. Um, it was exacerbated by the grief I was. feeling over my dad. Um, it was really. hard to hold hope for new life. while watching him. decline so rapidly and knowing that his. death was imminent. and you know at the same time facing.

the decline of my fertility. It was just. it was it was a whole lot of mortality. sort of staring me in the face all at. once. It was terrifying honestly. And my husband just kept looking at me, not saying a word. Um, he was. he was calm, which up until that point I. had really appreciated.

his ability to stay calm when I was. otherwise overwhelmed. But in that particular moment, it felt. like. something's wrong. Like maybe I'm alone. in this. I asked him what he was feeling. and you know he said I'm sad. and that was kind of it. And when they decide to do another round. of IVF, they have another setback. That.

round yields no more viable embryos. So. all they have are those two embryos. left. This is where things start to get really. hard because [music] Aaron doesn't feel. like he is affected in the way that she. is. >> And that starts to create this [music]. really difficult distance between them.

We'll be right back. So Caroline, you had told us that all of. these things that Aaron and Adam have. gone through, the failed transfer, the. not having as many viable embryos as. they'd hoped, Aaron's dad of course. being sick, all of this leads to some. tension between the two of them. So. where do things go from here? So this is.

the point where the perspectives on what. happened really diverge. There are two. people in the relationship and. unsurprisingly they remember the way in. which the relationship broke down. differently. >> Unfortunately, like I said, I didn't get. to talk to Adam directly for this story, but from the email he sent me and from. his court records, I had a pretty clear. idea of what this period of time was. like for him. And it seems very clear to.

me that this period of time was also. very hard for him. The IVF process had. been emotionally draining. He had really. put so much of his energy into it along. with Aaron. And there was a point, he. said, where he felt like she really. stepped away from him. I tried my best. to explain to him that I just I was at a.

breaking point. I was like, I can't I I. have to let a ball drop. It's too much. I am trying to bring a new life into the. world. I am trying to keep my dad in. this world. I am the primary bread. winner in our household. I am trying to. maintain executive presence at work. Something's got to give. >> She moved into a different bedroom. >> I needed space. I needed a minute. >> She said she didn't want to do couples. counseling anymore. >> Couples counseling, we had been doing it.

for months. It didn't seem like it was. working at the moment. It wasn't really. fixing anything. And I said, you know, I. just I need to go to my corner and just. decompress for a second. Not everything. can be fixed together. And I thought. that was okay. And then she told him. that she didn't want him to come to any. more of their IVF appointments. emotionally I needed support I wasn't. getting from him. But I talked to a lot. of friends who [sighs and gasps]. had been through something similar with.

their partners who said that, you know, until there was an actual baby there or. at least a bump that emotionally they. maybe weren't as invested and that that. was normal. And so I told myself, "This. is women's work. Let me gather my tribe. of women and they will walk me through. this cuz they've been through it." And I. think that in particular to be suddenly. shut out of something that he had given. so much emotional energy to. >> that was really really difficult.

>> Mhm. >> And I thought I would just read a few of. his words directly. >> Please. >> So Adam says, I was devastated by these. decisions particularly the exclusion. from our joint efforts to build a. family. He says, "When I conveyed how painful it. was to be excluded, she responded, you. are not a priority.". >> Adam says, "I was shocked and hurt, especially given the intimate and.

collaborative nature of the journey we. had undertaken until then. Her exclusion. of me from the medical process was. absolute. I was reduced from a. co-participant to a bystander." H. >> you know at some point Aaron remembers. Adam saying something along the lines of. I would rather have a healthy marriage. than a baby. To me those things weren't. in conflict. It wasn't that our marital. communication wasn't a priority to me.

It just wasn't. subject to the same biological reality. that my fertility was. >> She told me she said to Adam, "Look, we. have the rest of our lives to work on. this marriage. But for a baby, we are in the 11th hour. right now. And that's just not how Adam. sees it at all. And by the end of June 2023, he brings up divorce [music] for the. first time. The unraveling all happened.

so quickly from the time we did our last. round of IVF, you know, in which he was. [music] actively participating, encouraging me, cheering for me, putting. posters up around the house about you. can do it to the time he said he wanted. a divorce and he was never looking back. was not even [music] 2 months. And. >> Aaron is just totally shocked by that, she says. And [music]. then very quickly too, her mind turns to.

these embryos that they've created. together. >> And is there a question or what is she. thinking about them? >> Well, Aaron had been hoping to go into. the clinic for an embryo transfer in a. couple of weeks. And now she doesn't. know what to do. So, [music] she calls. the clinic to see what her options are. >> Mhm. >> I think still at that point, she's not. [music] giving up. she is still thinking. that there is a way to repair this. relationship. There is a way to convince. him that [music] we should move forward.

and we should have children. >> So I called the clinic and [music] they. told me, "Well, actually your husband. called and withdrew his consent for. there to be any more embryo transfers.". >> And she finds out that Adam has actually. revoked his consent to use the embryos. >> Oh wow. And he had not given her any. indication that he was going to do that? No. >> When the doctor told me he had revoked. his consent, it.

not only was the fact itself. devastating, but the fact that I was finding out from. the clinic that he had done it without. telling me. felt like an incredible betrayal. I felt incredibly disrespected. I felt. abandoned. I felt like I didn't know my. husband anymore. I didn't know who this. person was. Aaron is now thinking, "Okay, what.

options do I have left?" And that's the. point at which she decides to freeze her. eggs. [music] Her kind of tentative plan. is that she could find an anonymous. donor to create embryos [music] with, but the doctor really drives home just. [music] how slim those chances are at. this point for her. >> And so she knows those embryos that she. created with Adam, those are her best. [music] chance at having a biological.

child. And so [music] at that point, a New York. divorce court becomes the forum [music]. for deciding this question of embryo. custody and the fate of these two. remaining embryos. Okay. But when a couple goes to an IVF. clinic, I would have imagined that there. would be contracts that you sign with. the clinic and sign with each other or. sign with somebody that address some of. these questions such as what happens to. the embryo if we break up or somebody.

dies or I don't know like a million. different hypothetical situations. There. are contracts standard IVF agreements. they often give you three options for. what happens in the case of splitting. up. One option is the embryos are. destroyed. Another the embryos are. donated for research and another is that. the embryos are given to one party. And. Aaron and Adam, they actually signed two. different contracts at different times.

in their IVF process determining what. would happen in the case of them getting. divorced. The first time right at the very. beginning of when they started the IVF. process, they agreed to donate any. leftover embryos to research. >> But then months go by and there are only. these two embryos left and they decide. that in the case of a divorce, those. embryos would go to one party or the. other. But they never specified which.

party that would be. M. >> and so this really brings us to the. heart of the court case and the question. of who gets custody of the embryos and. they have oral arguments in a Brooklyn. courthouse last September. >> So what is each person's argument before. the court? So Erin side is making the. case that there was a deep promise that. was made and she really sacrificed the.

last years of her biological fertility. because Adam said that they were going. to have children together and that you. really can't just take that away. On top. of that, they say that Aaron has always. wanted to be a mother and this is more. than likely her last chance. So, she. should be given that chance. Now, that's. their argument. >> And what about Adam's side? What does he. say? >> Well, Adam is arguing that Aaron doesn't. have an absolute right to biological.

parenthood and that by having their. child without his involvement, he would. essentially be reduced to an anonymous. donor. You know, again, I think I want. to read some of his arguments for why he. feels that Aaron should not get the. embryos without his consent. He says, "I did not endure the IVF. process, assist with medical. appointments and injections, or provide. care for her ill father with the. intention of being reduced to an.

anonymous donor." These actions were. expressions of love and commitment to. building a family together. Given the. nature of Miss Miller's conduct during. our marriage and the divorce. proceedings, I do not believe that. co-parenting is a viable path forward. He also says that reducing him to an. anonymous donor in this way would. violate his Jewish faith because he says. that Judaism imparts on you that you. must transfer the lessons of Judaism to.

your offspring. And he would not be able. to do that if he was not part of his. child's life. And during those oral arguments in. September, Aaron gets a pretty good feel. from the judge that the judge is really. responding to the arguments that her. side is making. And Aaron knows that if. the judge rules in her favor, she will. have the opportunity to transfer an. embryo. And pretty much right away, she.

starts making plans so that the minute. that decision comes down, she can spring. into action. The day we got the ruling from the lower. court, I got the email that just said. two words, we won. >> And in fact, the judge rules in her. favor. >> Wow. >> But Aaron also knows Adam is probably. going to appeal this decision, which. means that I am probably going to have a. very narrow window in which to get this.

embryo inside of my body. I didn't know. if he was going to follow through with. it or when he was going to follow. through with it or if it would happen. before I could get the transfer. accomplished. And pretty much. immediately she starts the IVF process. >> I was running back and forth between the. clinic and the court trying to see if. anything had been filed and just really. praying that the universe was on my. side. And just as she expects, Adam.

files an appeal and the appellet court. actually does put a stay. Basically. temporarily blocks the lower court's. ruling and says, "Okay, from this moment. on, no party can do anything with these. embryos.". >> But at that point, it was too late. Not. long before the stay was announced, Aaron was able to get in at the IVF.

clinic for her embryo transfer. Two of. my closest friends came with me on the. day of the transfer. Uh, by that time, everybody at the clinic. knew me. I had receptionists and nurses. and doctors who had seen me through the. years of this journey. just seen me. breaking down in tears, sobbing in the. clinic over and over again, wondering if. this day was ever going to come. And I. went back. They let my friends come with.

me. They both held my hands. They were. both moms. The doctor came out with the embryo and. this tiny catheter. It was a really dark room um with the. ultrasound on the wall. She describes. the moment when [music]. she first sees that embryo on the. ultrasound screen. >> and you can see them like insert the. catheter and there's this [music] little. bright light where the embryo is and.

they release it and [music]. we were all holding our breath. It was, you could hear a pin drop as they. released the embryo and it just [music]. sat there on the screen just glowing. and [music] I just I was so overcome and. finally I'm looking at the screen and. there's my [music] baby safely nestled. inside my womb and I just felt like. finally [music] you're safe. You're.

home. She described it like her uterus. was the night sky and it was this tiny. little star and she just felt so. relieved. and eventually she gets the call from. the clinic telling her that she's. pregnant. >> And how does Adam react to this news. when he finds out? >> Well, he doesn't know for a while. He. actually is told by Aaron's lawyer the.

night before they have a hearing in New. York City. [clears throat]. >> And so I'm actually there in the. courthouse for the moment when they see. each other for the first time, both. knowing that Aaron is carrying their. child. Adam is sitting all the way down. the hallway and Aaron just kind of keeps. stealing glances at him and he's looking. at her. And I couldn't read his. emotions. I couldn't tell what his. expression was or what his mood was. And.

she's just really wondering what is he. thinking. >> She says that for so long she had. imagined what she always thought would. be this incredibly joyous moment of. sharing the news of her pregnancy with. her partner. You know, we struggled for. so long. We went through such a hard. hard thing and we finally got there. I. finally got there. And I was really sad not to share that. with him, but it wasn't that at all.

>> Wow. So, at this point, as I understand. it, Aaron is pregnant. There's one. remaining embryo left in the custody. case. Where does the case stand today? So, now the case actually is on appeal. So, there is, you know, another higher. court that is going to decide what. should happen to the remaining embryo in. the case. And I think importantly, appeals court is where precedent is set. So this is a case that will have bearing. on other cases depending on what that. appeals court rules.

>> Well, can you talk a little bit more. about that? Like what are the. implications exactly beyond these two. people? >> Well, this area of law is kind of like. the wild west. I mean 2/3 of states have. no precedent on this issue of who would. get the embryos in the case of a couple. splitting up. That basically means that. an appeals court has not considered it. or has not ruled on it yet. And when you. don't have precedent from a higher. court, it gives more power to the.

individual judges of the lower court. level. And so you get really different. rulings on cases like this from judge to. judge, from state to state. And we. really see states figuring this out. actively in real time. Arizona actually. became the first state to have. legislation on this issue back in 2018. Their law, which was passed by a, you. know, pretty conservative legislature.

there in Arizona, said that the embryos. should go to whichever party was more. likely to have those embryos as. children. M. >> last year a very similar case to Aaron. and Adams went all the way up to the. Michigan Supreme Court and the Supreme. Court ultimately said you know what. we're not going to rule on this is a. question for the legislature. Mhm. >> So, my big takeaway from doing the story. and learning about the legal landscape.

is that it's still kind of wide open and. each case, if it reaches the appeals. court level, has the potential to impact. other similar cases. And that's. certainly true of Aaron and Adam's case, too. What do you think, Caroline, that Aaron. would say to somebody who felt that it. was unfair that her desire to have a. child trumped Adam's desire to not have.

a child or at least not have this child. with this embryo? >> Well, I actually asked Aaron that. question. Erin, I I think that some. people might listen and think for. themselves, you know, Adam did. contribute 50% of his DNA to these. embryos. And what would you say to. someone. whose position is, is it unfair to use. these embryos without his consent? You. know, how do you weigh.

your desire to become a parent against. his desire not to. I mean, I definitely did feel the weight of this. decision. and I understand that reasonable people. might not agree. about what should happen here. It's it's hard is what it is. It's just. really really hard. And sometimes there.

are no good choices. You know, go. against my husband's wishes or never be. a mother. Like that's what what kind of. choice is that? [laughter]. It's an impossible choice. So at this point, Aaron is well on her. way. She is due [music] in October. >> Wow. >> And I think now she's really still.

trying to figure out how she got here. [music] and how all this played out. You. know, in our conversation, she started. talking about how this would be [music]. different if, you know, they'd done it. the oldfashioned way and had [music] sex. and Aaron had gotten pregnant and then 3. [music] 4 months into the pregnancy they. decided to get a divorce. Outside of. IVF, if a man changes his mind [music] 5. days after conception and wants to. withdraw his DNA, there is no remedy for.

that. [music] Nature doesn't offer a. remedy for that. So, it's a fair. question to ask, should we create one. where one doesn't otherwise exist in. nature? Do you get a doover? I don't. know. For years, we had a shared goal of. building a family together. So is one. person allowed to deviate from the plan. unilaterally. and change the entire course of somebody. else's future? That's how I view this. That's how I. experience this.

You know, when I started [music] working. on this story, I was thinking about a. similar thing to Aaron. And I [music] I. was thinking about how this all would. have played out differently if the baby. had been [music] conceived naturally. rather than through IVF. But that's not. the situation we're [music] in. They. didn't get pregnant the old-fashioned. way. And man, that changes everything.

And that is why this case is so. interesting and I think so important. because the reality is that there are so. many more embryos that are out there. I. mean hundreds of thousands of embryos. and we'll have to see what is the most. fair way to think about this. [music].

What is the way forward in these really. thorny, messy [music] situations where. life is created outside of the womb? [music]. I don't think we know yet. [music]. >> Caroline Kitchener, thanks so much. >> Thank [music] you so much for having me.

>> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. [music]. Iran has signaled it is willing to. escalate its fight with the United. States with senior leaders issuing. increasingly sharp warnings in recent. days after attacking American warships. for the first time. The US military. [music] said Tuesday that it had. destroyed five Iranian oil tankers in. retaliation for attempted strikes.

[music] on a US Navy warship, while Iran. said that it launched strikes at a base. used by American forces in Jordan in. [music] response. The attacks occurred 3. days after Iran made its first known. attempt at striking an American military. vessel. The recent clashes have. reignited fears of an escalating. regional war. [music]. And in a highly unusual move, [music]. President Trump used a speech at a. Republican campaign event on Wednesday. night to promise every American a $5,000.

payment [music] if they vote to keep. Republicans in control of Congress. So if the Republicans win, you win with. us and you get $5,000. [music]. It will be called the Trump dividend. We'll call it the Trump. [music]. Congratulations. Now all we have to do now all we have to. do is win under. [music]. >> Such a payment predicated on the outcome. of an election seems legally dubious and.

financially impractical since it would. likely cost more than $1 trillion. [music]. Analysts said it highlights Trump's. worries about Republicans unpopularity. in November elections. >> [music]. >> Today's episode was produced by Stella. Tam. It was edited by Liz O Balin. [music] with help from Lisa Chow and Ben. Calhoun. It was fact checked by Susan. Lee and contains original music by. [music] Marian Lozano and Dan Powell.

And additional music by Leah Shaw Dearon. and Pat [music] McCusker. Our theme. music is by Wonderly. Episode was. engineered [music] by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Peter Walston. >> [music]. >> That's it for the daily. I'm Rachel. Abrams. See you tomorrow.