A Conversation With President Zelensky

from The New York Times I'm Sabrina. tavernes and this is the. daily 5 years ago a TV personality and. comedian Vladimir zalinski won the. presidency in Ukraine in a landslide. Victory and. [Music]. then after 3 years in office he faced. the biggest challenge of his presidency.

and of his life this is only the. beginning for Russia on the Ukrainian. land Russia is trying to defeat the. freedom of all people in Europe of all. he rose to that challenge beating back. one of the world's largest. armies but now we urgently need patot. systems and missiles for them and you. can imagine what our soldiers feel when. they simply have nothing to respond to.

enemy fire the tide has turned against. him please do not ask Ukraine when the. war will. end ask yourself why is Putin still able. to continue. it today my colleague Andrew Kramer sat. down with zinski to talk about the fight. of his life and how it might end.

[Music]. it's Tuesday June. 4th so Andrew you've been covering. Ukraine for many years and you first met. president zinski back in 2020 before. Russia invaded tell us what he was like. back then there's just an incredible. density of events that have filled. zelinsky's tenure as president I had an. opportunity to interview president. zinsky in 2020 and this was during covid. so it was a zoom interview and it was.

really a different era for zalinski he. had just come in as president he was. babyfaced he was a fresh presence in. Ukrainian politics and at this moment he. was trying to reset relations with the. United States there had been tensions. with the Trump Administration and he. wanted to turn a new page in bilateral. relations and by tension with the Trump. Administration you mean of course that. zalinski was in the middle of the first. Trump impeachment we may all forget but. Trump made a phone call to zalinski. asking him to investigate not only Joe. Biden but also his son Hunter Biden and.

Trump hinted that the US would actually. withhold military aid if seninsky didn't. do that that's right the perfect phone. call that's what president Trump called. it and during this time zalinsky became. a briefly a known figure in the United. States but in Ukraine he was known as a. charismatic leader he was a television. personality before becoming president. and he had campaigned on an idea of a a. new morning in Ukraine he would crack. down on corruption and a central element. of his campaign had been to make peace.

with Russia it's pretty interesting to. remember actually that zalinski started. as someone who thought it was possible. to make peace with Russia that's who he. was as a politician when he started out. and he had wide support he was elected. with 73% of the votes so a lot of. ukrainians beli that he would actually. be able to achieve this but this had. really Fallen apart and by the time I. talked to him late in 2020 the the. prospects for these negotiations were. very unclear and it was for this reason. more important than ever for the zinsky.

administration to shore up support from. the United. States so that was 2020 a lot has. changed clearly at this point zalinski. is not making peace with Russia anymore. you sat down with zalinski a couple of. weeks ago why did you want to talk to. him again. now well it's it's a very interesting. and critical moment in the war the tide. has turned in the war Russia is pressing. all along the front and American Aid had. been stalled for 6 months and it was.

passed recently in Congress but it. hasn't yet arrived so it's a moment. where zinsky has his back against the. wall and what seninsky has really zeroed. in on is that the NATO countries in the. United States should allow Ukraine to. use donated Western Weaponry to hit. targets inside of Russia now of course. firing American weapons into Russia has. really been a red line for the United. States through the more than two years. of this conflict because Russia is a. nuclear armed power and and there have.

always been fears in the background that. this would be provocative this would be. escalatory and would would really raise. the risk of of a wider War so we wanted. to understand how zalinsky was making. that argument for Biden to allow him to. use American weapons to hit targets. inside of Russia despite the risks so. tell me about your interview start from. the beginning are we are we recording. now I'm. roll well we walked into the. presidential Administration through very.

tight security it's always an. interesting experience arriving at the. presidential office in Kiev there's. sandbags and anti-tank barriers around. the building Andrew you'll sit up on the. right closest to the presid yeah we get. we made our way through the compound to. a ceremonial reception hall this was in. a 19th century building with exotic. plaster moldings on the walls called the. house of chimmer okay okay it's okay for. you good and I went to interview zinsky.

with my colleagues Phil Pan the. international editor and Bill Brink the. Ukraine. editor we waited there for about an hour. before the president showed. up hi. sorry Hi president meet welcome. was when he walks into a room you you. immediately notice that he's there that. he's a present pres I believe you know. Andrew kraner he's our beer Chief here. ah well we we had an interview but it.

was by Skype in 2020 I think maybe I'm. sorry it was in an another life and he. is a little bit shorter in real life. than he might appear on television and. War has changed Linsky he looks Haggard. and for the last two years he's been. bearded and wearing only military. fatigues in this case it was a green. t-shirt and green. trousers but he did seem to be holding. up all right he looked healthy and he. was very energetic thank you so much for.

coming we can sit yeah after some small. talk in English can we check Ukrainian. translation he switched into Ukrainian. and we spoke with him through a. translator so the Biden Administration. has prohibited Ukraine from using. americanmade weapons to strike inside. Russia out of concern for escalation. including the risk of nuclear war and. our very first question was about this. red line your government has urged to. change to this policy given the.

situation on the battlefield right now. why thank you so much well first of all. Biden Administration was really against. the use of the western weapons that's. important to mention and he became quite. animated he was gesturing he was using. his skills as a public speaker to convey.

what he felt was a very important point. they are striking with the missiles from. Russian territory so how can we protect. ourselves from these strikes and he was. saying that it's really not possible for. him to fight when the Russians can. gather their forces and fly their. airplanes in Russia and then attack. Ukraine when he is not allowed to strike. back as they gather across the border. they are in the closest Villages and. settlements to the border from Russia. and knowing that we will not respond he.

was conveying this sense of fighting. with one hand tied behind his back and. they have to endure the attacks from. Russia the bombings and and the. artillery strikes and they're not. allowed to hit back Russ that is their. big big. advantage and. then he talked about the northeastern. part of Ukraine near Ukraine's second. largest city. har it's been a target of Russian attack. it's bombarded almost daily.

and it's now one of the focal points of. the. war to defend harke Ukraine has been. forced to divert soldiers from elsewhere. to fight this Russian incursion with the. city at their backs Russia is piling up. the troops they are and zalinsky was. telling us that his intelligence can see. the Russians unloading from trains. weaponry and Equipment just across the. border in Russia but he's not allowed to. strike it because of the restriction on. the use of Western Weaponry M and and so. he said he has no choice but to watch.

them prepare to. attack and he had a very Vivid image for. this he was saying that he he sees the. Russians gathering on that side of the. border that means that tomorrow they. will not give us flowers they will give. us. death and that he knows they aren't. coming with flowers but they're coming. with death if we know that tomorrow they. are not celebrating with us but they are. killing us why can't we use our weapons.

to demolish them in the point of. collection of the arms in other words. what he was saying was that they're. basically sitting ducks and if you could. only use these big powerful American. weapons to shoot inside of Russia you. know to take the war to Russians then. that could turn the tide of the war but. the Americans were just not letting him. do that that's right and he's also. asking for very specific Weaponry to do. this and it sort of speaks to zelinsky's.

life over the past two and a half years. his country depends on arsenal of. Weaponry from allies who have often been. reluctant to provide it and he finds. himself often coming with what amounts. to a shopping list to these Western. Nations describing what his military. needs in any particular. circumstance we can get in the end of. the day from NATO countries and what he. told us seven system P Patriot.

systems seven was that he needed seven. Patriot anti-aircraft missile. systems our analysts told us we need 120. 130. f-16s and 120 to 130 F-16. airplanes and these kind of requests. well understandable his his soldiers are. engaged in combat they're suffering. casualties and civilians are being. killed so it's of dire importance to. zalinsky but these type of requests have.

sometimes graded on Western politicians. so much so that last summer the British. Minister of Defense had said in response. and really in frustration that zalinsky. uh were not Amazon don't come with the. shopping list and this of course has. been the view of the US Administration. as well like hey guy we just gave you. $60 billion have some gratitude exactly. okay so it's clear why shooting American. weapons into Russia would help zinski. but how was he viewing the risk of.

Russia retaliating and potentially. setting off a nuclear war because of. course that's why the US Drew this red. line in the first place right well this. is really the question of the hour on. escalation what do you say to the people. who argue that it is too risky to to. allow Ukraine to use these weapons. inside Russia because of the risk of. escalation there are no risks of. escalation and when we asked about this. zinsky asked us in a sense to get inside.

Putin's head a little bit and understand. how he sees this playing. out he was saying that Putin is an. irrational actor so obviously somebody. to be feared that he could use the. nuclear weapon then when he failed to. conquer US during the first year of the. wi but if he were to use nuclear weapons. he would have used them in the first. year of the war when Russia was down and. Ukraine was up and he was also saying. that he did not use. it because he really loves his own life.

Putin he's irrational but he would also. fear for his own life and he understands. that that's it the door will be totally. locked to Russia fully locked if he uses. nuclear weapons it's effect and no one. will be able to do anything with that. even his fans among the politicians they. won't be able to do anything because the. use of the nuclear weapon is not the Red. Line This is a totally different. level that's it this is the World War I.

using a nuclear weapon would obviously. be risking World War III and Putin would. understand the consequences of this so. these were zelinsky's explanations of. why he felt the Russians were bluffing. on the nuclear question so zelinsky's. conclusion was that the nuclear threat. really isn't real that it's not that. much of a risk then for the West to let. Ukraine cross that red line use those. American weapons to shoot at Russians. inside Russia yes and then last week. apparently Biden was convinced by. zelinsky's arguments the Biden.

Administration Administration officials. announced that American weapons could be. used to hit targets inside of Russia the. decision to shift was weighing the risk. of losing Ukraine's second largest city. hary or having it bombed into Oblivion. against a very small risk of a nuclear. war a large risk of losing a city and. and a small risk of nuclear war but. there were caveats the American. permission only allowed the use of. American weapons on the border and in.

response to Russian military attacks. across the border on Ukraine and it. didn't cover the most powerful rocket in. the Arsenal that the United States has. provided the attack's guided rocket so. we won't see Ukrainian attacks on large. Russian cities using American weapons. such as Rocket attacks on Moscow but it. is evidence that the Biden. Administration has shifted red line and. it seems significant even if it's. limited so the red line May isn't. actually so R what do you think this.

tells us it tells us that zilinski has. been persuasive with his style of public. performance with his style of reaching. out directly to voters in the countries. that are allies with Ukraine he has. pushed Western leaders to shift on red. lines and to continually provide more. military support for his military and. change their policies on on how they. assist Ukraine.

but zilinsky has another challenge it's. something he doesn't talk about nearly. as much but it's just as important to. winning the war and this is a challenge. inside Ukraine in Ukrainian. [Music]. Society we'll be right back. so Andrew you said that there was.

another big potential problem for. zalinski and that was a problem in. Ukrainian Society tell me about that in. short it comes down to this not enough. men want to fight and zalinsky doesn't. know how to make them he has been. drafting men in relatively small batches. throughout the country and those who. have signed up in the beginning they are. still serving at the front and have been. fighting continuously for 2 years so. there's fatigue of solders. who are fighting and in the Army and.

there's also reluctance of those who. have not yet been drafted to be drafted. into the military so Andrew I'm really. thinking about this with you and. remembering back to those early days. when you and I were walking around the. streets of Kiev and going into draft. offices and seeing everybody who signed. up right history professors I think you. even interviewed a male stripper at some. point that we were kind of remarking on. everybody wanted to fight but that is. very different now what what happened. what.

changed it's now been 2 years and. there's been a lot of dying if you look. at the number of men serving in in the. Ukrainian military now including some. units like the National Guard and Border. guards it's about 1 million men under. arms out of that 1 million about 10%. have died so far we don't know the exact. number of casualties in the Ukrainian. Army but estimates are in the range of. about 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers who. have been killed over 2 years of war. wow one thing that I found really.

remarkable when you travel around in. villages and towns is that there're. almost always dry flowers all over the. roads because they're funerals so often. and and they they put these flowers down. and then they have a procession so. military vehicles will come very slowly. carrying a body and a hearse and people. will get out of their cars and they'll. kneel on the side of the road while this. procession goes by and it's these sort. of scenes that are really frightening to. men who are eligible for the draft and. who know what it would mean to be called. up and sent into the trench fighting and.

how many men are eligible for the draft. in Ukraine there are three to four. million men who could be drafted and. could be serving in the military so they. could be fighting a a war of attrition. with Russia with the larger Army were. they able to mobilize and and equip. these additional soldiers but they. haven't done this and there's been quite. a bit of reluctance so they're at a. moment now where they need soldiers but. the Patriot IC wave from earlier in the.

war it has really washed over and at. this point they're going to have to use. the power of calling up men against. their will in order to continue fighting. this war what does that look like in. Ukraine now well the call up of men from. villages in in some areas of Ukraine has. been so great that there are Villages. without men there are Villages where. women when they see the draft officials. coming into town they have swarmed these. vehicles and are protesting to protect. the the few remaining men in these areas. there have been Road Blocks put up in.

Kiev and other towns to stop cars and. and check draft registration documents. on the street and sometimes men are. asked to report to basic training within. as little of a week after being stopped. at one of these surprise checkpoints and. this has been disruptive and men are. fearful of being caught in in one of. these roadblocks and approached by draft. officials and there even social media. apps that track where they're moving. around town for example in Kiev there's. an app called weather in Kiev and it'll. say it's raining on a certain.

intersection and that would mean that. the draft officials are there and and. men should avoid that area interesting. and is zalinski acknowledging this. challenge I mean the challenge of trying. to get men to fight in the war. politically zinsky has disassociated. himself from the challenges of the draft. he's said this is a problem for. Parliament or for the military it's. politically very unpopular and he hasn't. for example given major speeches calling. on ukrainians to sign up and explaining. the draft.

policies in our interview he did though. acknowledge the toll of the war on. Ukrainian society and he described this. as. divisions some people are at War some. people are not that there had been some. Rift in society between men who are. fighting and men who are not fighting it. is really serious because the society. begins. to divide and for somebody trying to.

steer a country in a war this could be a. problem this separation in the society. this division at this moment the enemy. can use. it so given that fewer and fewer people. want to fight and war is obviously. fundamentally about fighting where is. Ukrainian society's head right now on. this war and what is their appetite to.

stop it I mean do people want to call it. quits agree to just okay lob off a third. of their territory and give it to Russia. and finally be done with this or is a. full draft kind of mass mobilization. finally going to be on the table well. this is what makes zelinsky's situation. now so interesting is he's in a bind. he's ruling a country that on the one. hand there's massive support for. continuing the war there's incredible. anger at Russia still seething anger at. Russia over this war and no desire to.

negotiate on the other hand you have. fewer and fewer people actually willing. to fight so zalinski is caught between. these two positions and it's a difficult. moment okay to summarize here zelinsky's. been pushing on these red lines abroad. he's getting stuff he made some progress. last week but it seems like it's not. enough to dig himself out of the hole. he's in and at home there's kind of a. similar Dynamic he's done these small. batch drafts of men but that also seems. like it's not enough to to really win.

and now he's in this very hard place and. you know to put it very bluntly it seems. like a losing Place well this is. probably the moment of most uncertainty. for zalinski and for Ukraine since the. beginning of the war there's no popular. decision for zalinski rafting more. soldiers is unpopular if he doesn't. draft soldiers and settles in a. ceasefire negotiation that will also be. unpopular. zinsky is really squeezed between two.

fires and this is all against the. backdrop of Russia escalating an. offensive that's expected to continue. through the summer how is he coping with. this this is a lot on his shoulders well. this is something that we asked in the. interview I just wanted to ask if you. could say a few words about your own. life as a wartime president and and. maybe we talked to him on what was the. 817th day of the war.

I'm not afraid of working for many. hours and to do my work and many other. works but the hardest is the emotions. you understand that. emotions he doesn't tell jokes like he. used to one aspect of the war is that. his life as a comedian has really come. to a close and he's become a much more. serious public figure asleep and I wake.

up very early and uh he said that he. deals with some of the the stresses of. leadership by working out in the morning. I can see my wife more often she's in. the office but I see my children not. that much and he was most expressive and. went on at some length about his. family he said that through the course. of the war his children have grown up uh. his daughter is now. 19 his son is 11 and he said that he.

would spend time with his son working on. Spanish homework I don't know Spanish in. fact but I'm interested just in some. time to spend with him whatever he. does and these are the happiest moments. and here I can. relax Andrew how did you end the. interview I asked him what he would do. after the war and I thought his answer. was telling so if what are your plans.

after the. [Laughter]. war I would. like after the. war after the victory because those are. different things he said there's a. distinction between the end of the war. and victory things I think that my plans. depend on that so I would like and then. he described what would happen after. victory would spend time with his family. and his dogs but what he left unsa was.

what his life would look like if Ukraine. lost the War and what would it look like. well one scenario is that he could die. at the end of. this he's been the target of 10. assassination attempts according to his. government another possible outcome. would be that Ukraine could lose a large. chunk of its territory in a settlement. agreement so it's understandable why he. didn't go into the. details but it was still remarkable that.

he acknowledged just for a moment this. vulnerability this idea that there could. be an outcome for Ukraine other than. Victory Andrew thank you thank you. Sabrina. [Music]. we'll be right.

[Music]. back here's what else you should know. today on Sunday Mexican voters elected. the country's first woman and first. Jewish president Claudia. shanbom it was a landslide victory for. the 61-year-old climate scientist and.

former mayor of Mexico City Shane bom a. leftist had campaigned on a promise to. continue the legacy of Mexico's current. president Andres Manuel Lopez. [Applause]. arador under a brador millions of. Mexicans were lifted out of poverty but. he was also criticized for failing to. control rampant cartel violence the.

election was the largest in Mexico's. history with the highest number of. Voters taking part and it puts a Jewish. leader at the helm of one of the world's. largest predominantly Catholic. countries. and President Biden is expected to sign. an executive order on Tuesday allowing. him to temporarily seal the US border. with Mexico when the number of Migrant. Crossings exceeded a certain. threshold the order would suspend.

protections for Asylum seekers in the US. and represents the most restrictive. border policy instituted by Biden who is. under intense political pressure to. address illegal. migration poll suggest that there is. growing support even inside the. president's own party for more. aggressive border measures the executive. order is likely to be challenged in. court. today's episode was produced by Nina.

Feldman Claire tennis sket Rob zipco and. Diana win with help from Michael Simon. Johnson it was edited by Lisa Chow. contains original music by Maran Lozano. and Alicia BBE and was engineered by. Chris Wood our theme music is by Jim. brunberg and Ben Lanser of. wonderly special thanks to sashko chco. [Music].

[Music]. that's it for the daily I'm Sabrina. Tavern see you tomorrow. [Music].