‘A Breaking Point’: The Minneapolis Police Chief on ICE

From The New York Times, I'm Michael. Barbaro. This is The Daily. >> [music]. >> Just hours before a federal immigration. officer killed Renee Good in her car, >> [music]. >> the Minneapolis police chief warned that. a tragedy involving ICE. >> [music]. >> and the people of his city seemed. inevitable. Today, >> [music]. >> I speak with that police chief, Brian.

O'Hara, about his experience [music]. with ICE in Minneapolis. and why, in his mind, the president's. campaign of mass deportation is. undermining faith in police departments. like his. It's Monday, January 12th. Chief O'Hara, thank you for making time. for us on. >> Sure. a Sunday no less and a very busy.

weekend for you. Sure, thank you for. having me. The past 48 hours. were pretty extraordinary. from the perspective of an outsider. There were these enormous protests. I. believe you yourself ended up in the. middle of one of them. I've tried to. make sense of the video. It I mean, what. has this been like for you? So, what. happened was we had a protest start. outside of a hotel where people believe. federal law enforcement might be. staying.

They they believed ICE agents were. staying there, right? >> Right, exactly. During the course of. that protest in March, it it sort of. transitioned into an unlawful assembly. and things that typically happen in. cities happen and a woman who was. disoriented drove her car onto a. sidewalk and the police were called to. respond. So, while the police car was. there dealing with regular police work, uh suddenly they realized they had. become surrounded by this crowd, which. had become unruly. So, our officers uh.

called in uh that they were unable to. drive out. and I was in the area personally with. other police officers. We just we. quickly ran in to back the crowd out to. get a path for the police car to come. out. And I think because [music] we did. that, I think that may have contributed. to emboldening an already unruly crowd. and we very quickly called in well over. 200 additional police officers and then. ultimately, we wound up placing uh 30.

people under arrest for unlawful. assembly and releasing them. It's been very taxing for all members of. the police department and this is a. situation that has been building up for. several weeks. A lot of the disturbances and chaos. that's been happening here as a result. of the manner in which some federal. enforcement activity is happening. is requiring our officers to respond and. step into situations and try and restore.

the peace, where oftentimes they. themselves then. become the target of people's. frustration. Well, you're hinting at all this. The. reason we're talking to you, of course, is because of the fact that ICE is. there, but because specifically of what. an ICE agent did in the middle of last. week, the shooting of a Minneapolis. resident, Renee Good. A shooting that. killed Ms. Good and at this point,

millions of people have watched the. video of that shooting from every. conceivable angle on social media, on TV. news, but there was a lead-up to that shooting. that a lot of us didn't watch as closely. and and didn't see on TV or on YouTube. and that was the arrival of a large. number of Immigration and Customs. Enforcement agents starting in early. December. And so, that's where I want to. begin. Take me back to that period for you as.

police chief. What was your. understanding of why the president. decided to send these agents to your. city? About a month ago in December, it seemed. like the public messaging was largely. political and and it was a result of a. real problem that does exist in the. state and that is a problem with fraud. Uh dozens of people have been prosecuted. uh by the FBI and the US Attorney's. Office here in Minnesota. You're. referring to the fraud that had been.

specifically highlighted in the Somali. community in Minneapolis. And I I do. want to talk about the president's. message when he decided to send. specifically immigration officers to. Minneapolis. I mean, he was pretty. explicit about his thinking. In his. mind, the Somali population in the city, which. is sizable and well-known, Yes. he. described it as a community that was. sowing disorder, committing crimes.

Basically, in so many words, a community. of troublemakers who should be. deported. And I wonder what you made of. that and if it felt like that had been. your experience as chief. Well, I'm from about 10 miles from lower. Manhattan is where I grew up. I was a. police officer for over 20 years in. Newark, New Jersey, but I had not known. any Somali Americans until I moved to. Minnesota. and the Somali Americans that I have met.

here, including many of whom are police. officers uh. in this city, have been incredibly welcoming of me. Uh. you know, so from a personal. perspective, it was just bizarre because I'm also. aware that the overwhelming majority of. people from that community. are American citizens. Well, from from a crime perspective, was. anything the president was saying true? >> [snorts]. >> Well, there is a real problem with fraud. in the state and unfortunately, that is.

sort of lost now. in all of this political rhetoric and. sort of the extreme reactions that. occur. You're you're drawing a. distinction between fraud and kind of. traditional street crime. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're. acknowledging that there's some level of. fraud occurring perhaps in this. community. Perhaps that's what the. president is. referring to. In your mind, that's. distinct from perhaps the crime that you.

you and your officers are dealing with. day in and day out. Yes, absolutely. Those cases. that were brought about uh leading to. dozens and dozens of of prosecutions. were led by the US Attorney's Office. here in Minnesota as well as the FBI. Got it. So, in your mind, was this plan. deployment, specifically of ICE agents. that the president asked for, was it. warranted? >> [sighs]. >> I mean, there have been immigration.

enforcement conducted in Minnesota. as long as there has been ICE. I think the problem is what gets lost in. this. is it's not necessarily about which laws. are being enforced, it's about how that. enforcement is happening. To the extent. that there are. well-planned, pre-planned, targeted. enforcement against people who who are. violating the law, I think all of law enforcement can very.

clearly get behind that. But to the extent that. things are being conducted that may not. be well-planned, using [snorts]. tactics that generally are not viewed as. sound, that may unnecessarily endanger the. lives both of law enforcement officers. conducting that enforcement. as well as the lives of people in the. community, certainly those are concerns. that I have to deal with and I am. responsible for as a professional.

managing my agency. Mhm. So, it sounds. like for you, it's not the fact of ICE. coming that is the issue. It's the way. that that that ICE came. So, so let's. talk about that. So, the president makes his case that. immigration enforcement should be. happening on a larger scale in. Minneapolis and in early December, he. makes it happen. How did the operations. of these ICE agents. work and how did it start to affect the.

police department that you run? What. changed? I mean, you're hinting that. their tactics are different. Yes. So, we've just gotten a. pretty dramatic increase. in 911 calls from people in the. community related to a lot of the street. enforcement that's happening. And I mean, it's everything from people. are being arrested and their cars are. left in the roadway, sometimes blocking. the street. In one case, left what it.

wasn't even placed in park and was. rolling down the road. Wait, wait, so I. so ICE officials are are are taking. someone out of their car, arresting them. and their car is not even put in park? We had that happen. We had another time. where there was a dog in the car and. they left the dog in the car. Wow. I. mean, even this morning, we've gotten. calls for individuals who were pepper. sprayed by ICE. It's just a variety of. calls for service that we then have to. manage and triage that were not. happening before. And how does that. sudden influx of 911 calls because.

people are experiencing ICE tactics. affect the department as a whole? How. does it complicate your policing? It. complicates things because we remain. significantly understaffed. This is the. Minneapolis Police Department. >> [snorts]. >> The majority of the cops that worked. here in 2020, 5 years later, the. majority have left and we're trying to. rebuild. We remain 1/3 below what had. been typical of of staffing for the. police department here today? Well, we're dealing with a much higher level.

of serious street crime than what had. been normal in the past. So, this is. adding additional work. Probably the toughest distinction is. we're getting called and pulled into. situations. that are very tense and very emotionally. charged. >> [snorts]. >> And oftentimes we're asked to try and. step in and de-escalate situations where. federal law enforcement may have been. involved that very very quickly, as soon. as we show up, we become the target of.

people's frustration. Mhm. So, the. minute you show up The minute we show. up, we're the problem. You know, people. are ready to go. It could very very quickly explode. And with the level of staffing that we. have and the time that it takes to get. the National Guard to come in, it will. be too late. That's my fear. I mean, you've been talking around this and I. think we should just make this extremely.

explicit that. you come to the job of being police. chief in Minneapolis. at a very specific moment with a very. specific. mandate. You arrive just 2 years after a. Minneapolis police officer murdered. George Floyd at a moment of extremely. low morale for the department and really. high levels of distrust of the police. department by the community. And when. you took this job, I went back and. looked at the old clips, you called.

Minneapolis ground zero for a global. reckoning on policing and you in the job. put in place sweeping reforms to try to. rebuild trust, repair relationships. between police and residents. Just give. us a couple examples of the reforms you. put in place and that presumably are now. being somewhat challenged by ICE's. presence. So, we have placed a very strong. emphasis on use of force, on employing. de-escalation, on the use of critical decision-making.

practices. We have gone out and had dozens of. community meetings to get input from. community as we revise our policies. And. I think it it all boils down to. trying to fight crime in a way that. earns community trust as opposed to. alienating people. And from what you're. saying, suddenly, as of a few weeks ago, all of that work.

is confronted with an outside group of. federal law enforcement officials. arriving in your city, doing police. work, but who don't answer to you and are not. as inevitably invested in the reform. efforts that you have put in place. They. have a totally different mandate and it. sounds like you're saying all of a. sudden that is just immediately. overshadowing, challenging, complicating. this entire project that you have. overtaken as police chief. Absolutely. And in the midst of. all of those challenges, while we're.

trying to heal this community, while. we're trying to heal the men and women. who have remained here and rebuild, while they're already the most. scrutinized police department in the. nation. >> [snorts]. >> And and I can tell you like the cops. here, we're human beings. And as I worry. that we might hit a breaking point. It feels like as the weeks went on here. that residents are taking it upon. themselves to monitor ICE agents and.

their activity. Minneapolis, this is not a secret, pretty liberal city and there are. residents who organized themselves in. this period into groups. They're. shadowing ICE agents, they're texting. each other, they're blowing whistles. And it's amounting to a pretty. meaningful effort to counter their. enforcement operations. I don't know if. you quibble with that word. Does that. become its own problem and did you find.

yourself wishing that the residents were. not doing that? Did you try to. discourage it? Well, I can tell you the role of the. police and law enforcement in the United. States. is first off to protect life, but it's. also to ensure people's human rights and. their constitutional rights. And people in this country have a First. Amendment right to observe, record, and. object to government activity. And that includes the activity that.

Minneapolis police officers do as well. as other law enforcement in our city. And [snorts] so, it is a challenge, but. it's a challenge that policing in. America has been dealing with and and. trying to improve upon uh for many. years. It does add a level of. complication to our work. But I just. want to be clear though, I'm not asking for federal law. enforcement to do anything differently. than what I expect the men and women of.

the Minneapolis Police Department to do. What you're describing clearly sounds. like a pretty combustible combination. You've got ICE agents who are operating. with their own. systems and set of rules. and then you have these residents in. your words operating their First. Amendment right to. surround them, to monitor them, to. scream at them. And this is adding up to. clearly Yes. >> a very delicate situation. And there's a. moment that I want to ask you about.

because it felt. oddly prescient where within the last. week or so, you stand up at a news. conference and you say basically, I am. worried. I I do have an ask that's both for. federal law enforcement You say may not. be from. >> ICE agents, you have your job to do, but. please do it lawfully. Um and then at. the same time to members of the. community Residents, yes, you can have. your protest, please do it peacefully.

I've been concerned for weeks that. because the issue is so emotional and. because frankly some of the way this. stuff has been carried out, the greatest. risk to me is that there would be unrest. or that there would be a tragedy. That somebody could get seriously hurt. or killed. But you seem to kind of know. that something awful was coming. Yes. I mean, this was predictable. And it's also entirely preventable.

I had been saying it for weeks. I literally said it at a press. conference the day before. And and when. you found out that it was true, that. there was a shooting involving an ICE. agent, what was your. first thought? I mean, I'm having a hard time describing it. I I just thought. [ __ ] this is it. You know, this is the potential here for.

2020 all over again. For George Floyd all over again. For the destruction of the city. We'll be right back.

So, I understand that an investigation. is still underway of what happened in. this shooting and we don't know exactly. what that investigation is going to look. like or what it's going to conclude and. we'll talk in just a few moments about. the conflict arising from the. investigation over whose investigation. it should be. But just to focus for a minute on the. shooting itself, have you watched the videos? Yes, I've seen the videos that are.

available online. What is your. understanding of how this unfolded? >> [music]. >> My understanding is that there was a. woman who was in her car and was. blocking the street. likely because immigration agents were. present uh and she was likely protesting.

in some way immigration officials being. present. And ultimately some confrontation. occurred. uh. where federal law enforcement shot into. the vehicle. KILLING HER.

HAVING WATCHED THE VIDEOS AND spoken. perhaps to responding officers, does. this strike you as a lawful interaction. between the ICE officer and the. resident? Well, [snorts] I can tell you as a. police officer for 25 years, anytime you. hear a situation where a cop gets into a. shooting. with an unarmed motorist, it gives you. pause and it's very concerning because.

while. policies and training try to everything. possible to prohibit those situations. and to try and prevent them from. occurring in the first place, there are times, unfortunately, where law enforcement cannot avoid those. situations from occurring. The concern. is, as a professional, to try and prevent our people from. getting into that situation in the first. place, so that we're not unnecessarily.

creating the risk. unjustifiably. Well, let's talk about that. You You. mentioned training. My sense is that. there are some pretty universal rules. around policing when it comes to a. motorist in a running car. The number. one is you don't place yourself in the. path of the vehicle. That's like traffic stop 101. You don't. do that. So, in your mind, that's a flag that you. have this ICE agent, the one who ends up. shooting Renee Good, standing in front.

of her car. Absolutely. And then the other one is what exactly. is the mission here? Because if this person. isn't the target of a pre-planned. enforcement action, then what are we doing? Are we trying to de-escalate and try and. resolve the situation? Are we trying to. take an enforcement action and enforce. some law here, or what exactly is is the. goal? We're focusing here on the ICE officers. I do want to ask you about the driver's.

decision-making Mhm. in this moment. Her. refusal to get out of the car, even. after ICE agents demand that she get out. of the car, her reversing then driving forward. She appears to disobey spoken orders. from from these officers. As somebody who thinks about this stuff, let's just ask this really plainly, was. she in the wrong? Well, I can only speak to conducting the. traffic stop from my perspective as a.

police officer. What is our policy? What. is our training? Number one, you. approach the driver, you introduce. yourself by rank, by name, by what. agency you work for, and you tell the. person, explain why the person is being. stopped. You [snorts] do these sorts of. things to try and ensure one number one. to identify yourself, but to try and. ensure. a level of professionalism and to try. and de-escalate. If the person asks you a question that's. reasonable, you respond to it.

reasonably. That That is the. expectation. And did the ICE agent do any of that? My. recollection is that there was not. >> and further, it just seems like there's confusion, and I I don't know, just from what I. recall, but it seems like someone else. is saying to get out of the car than the. officer who shot, and I just it's not. clear to me whether. the two of them were working together. and understood what each other was. trying to accomplish. Do you feel that this would have ended. differently had this been handled. entirely by the MPD, not ICE? No.

question. Do you have any empathy for the ICE. officer, given the split-second. nature of of policing, putting aside. whether he should have ever been in. front of the car? Yes, absolutely. >> [snorts]. >> Law enforcement leaders, executives, have an obligation to their people. We have an obligation to ensure that our. people have sufficient policy, sufficient training, sufficient. experiences.

for the challenges that we are placing. them into. We have an obligation not to. send our people out there and to tell. them, you know, you have a specific quota. today. You have to get a certain number. of people. I mean, it seems like that's. the situation these folks are being. placed into. And that went out the window a long time. ago in professional policing. And. considering this agent was seriously. injured in a stop, you know, somewhat. recently, it certainly raises questions as to what. did the agency do to protect their.

person? You're You're referring to the fact that. that I believe this officer, and the. Times has written about it, was involved. in a stop where he was dragged in a car. Yes. He sustained significant bodily. injury, for sure. So, what did the agency do to ensure. that that officer would not be unsafe in. similar situations? Right. I mean, you're basically raising questions about. whether ICE agents are sufficiently. trained to handle these kinds of. encounters. Yes, and whether or not Do. you think they are? I don't have.

specific information about that. I just. know what I've read. I know what's been. reported. It's been reported. that they're not even getting the level. of training that they used to get, that. the the time of training is less. I. think that's concerning, and I do think. they are being forced into situations in. which they are not well prepared to deal. with. Let me turn to the investigation. And I. want to ask you about two issues that. have arisen with this investigation. The. first, of course, is that the federal. government has blocked local officials.

from participating in the investigation, and they basically argue. that because of comments made by your. boss, Mayor Jacob Frey, that local. officials can't be objective. On the. other hand, you've got the Trump. administration out there basically. saying, you know, Renee Good is entirely at. fault, and the ICE officer did nothing. wrong here. So, can they be objective? I. mean, how are you making sense of what. has become an incredibly messy and.

contentious situation over what I. normally think of as everybody doing. joint investigations of of a tragic. situation. Well, I think the loss here is the loss. of any. trust that the investigation would be. legitimate. Mhm. And I'll tell you, I. know a lot of the FBI agents here, and. I believe the FBI will still do a. thorough investigation, cuz that's what. they do. That's what the people who. staff this agency here, that's what they. do every day.

But will Minneapolis residents believe. that it's a serious investigation? But. that's the problem. The way this has. played out has taken all sense of. legitimacy away from many people, and. that's very unfortunate. I want to talk about what happens next. now in the city as this investigation, for which there may not be much faith. locally, unfolds. Because in the wake of. this shooting and these protests, your. governor has dispatched the National. Guard to Minneapolis. The president is. dispatching or plans to dispatch.

far more federal officials, Border. Patrol agents. Is that just going to. magnify all the challenges that we have. been talking about here? >> [snorts]. >> Well, I had asked the mayor to have the. National Guard on standby as this was. initially unfolding because it was so. unpredictable. I was afraid that. once it came to the point. where we might need the National Guard, it it would probably take too long to. get them here. So, that's why I'm glad. they were on standby. Going forward,

it's my understanding that there is. additional federal law enforcement being. added to the state. specifically to conduct more of these. operations. That is concerning. If this escalates, are you worried, Chief Arradondo, that all of this is. just going to erase the work you've done. over the past four-plus years to rebuild. and repair the community's trust in the. Minneapolis Police Department?

The number one priority. that I worry about. in terms of erasing work that we've done. >> [snorts]. >> is ultimately erasing the gains that. we've made rebuilding the department. and being able to reduce crime. Mhm. You. know, in June of 2020, immediately after. the destruction of the city, the burning. of a police station here, in that one month, we had about as many. shootings in one month as the city used.

to have in half a year. Mhm. And that. level of crime stayed very high, and, you know, now the last couple of years. has started to come down. And it's come down despite not having. enough officers. And we finally have. started. to rebuild, and I'm just afraid if we. have another large-scale unrest that we. are go both going to have a dramatic. increase in crime yet again, that's. predictable, as well as another mass. exodus of the department.

And we just we we cannot sustain that. I mean, is there any part of you that feels that. this moment could strengthen the. relationship between the community and. police and test this work. and reveal that you all have made. progress, that people will see a. distinction between the MPD and the. feds? I know that is true. I've had many. people reach out and activists reach. out, uh, our elected officials, many.

people who typically have nothing good. to say about the Minneapolis Police. >> [snorts]. >> have been incredibly complimentary of. how well, how restrained, how. disciplined the Minneapolis police. officers have been in these very, very. tense situations over the last several. days. Mhm. But it's not universal. You. know, there's people here who, despite what's happening, seem to think it's our job to do ICE's. job. There's people here to seem to.

think that. that we should continue to make the same. failed mistakes of the past when dealing. with protests and crowd control and not. utilize the best practices to. de-escalate. and to keep everyone safe. Are we fully there yet? Of course not. We're not We haven't accomplished. winning trust with all levels of the. community. That was obvious this week. with all the the hate and vitriol that. was directed towards our officers. But there's certainly been progress.

Just to end this conversation, Chief. Arradondo, how do you think you get back. to a simpler time in your policing where. you can be focused on the reforms that. you brought to the city, on repairing relations between police. and the community, and in your mind, does ICE, does Border Patrol, do all. these federal agents need to leave the. city for you to do that? I mean, I think everybody wants to get. back to some sense of normalcy. And I.

think that does involve. some level of returning to some basic. things that we accepted as normal. You. know, that obviously isn't federal law. enforcement stops enforcing federal law. That's not the answer, either. But, it. does have to do with having an honest. conversation. about reality. We've had many instances. of people being stopped, family members. of police officers being stopped that. are American citizens. By ICE? Yeah,

it's definitely at best, it is. definitely questionable. They're not stopping family members of. folks who are Norwegian or Irish. [clears throat] That's not happening. >> Mhm. Just to return to that question. Can. your work at its best coexist with the. work of a organization like ICE? >> [music]. >> We are doing it right now, and we are. proving to the world that this is. possible. That this is not the same. police department it was 5 years ago or.

10 years ago or 15 years ago, but. it is an unbelievable stress on everyone. involved, >> [music]. >> and I think everybody needs to turn the. heat down. and hopefully get some [music] sense of. normalcy, some basic things to return. >> [music]. >> Chief Arradondo, thank you very much for. your time. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Michael.

>> [music]. >> We'll be right back. Here's what else you need to know today. As massive anti-government [music]. protests spread across Iran over the. weekend, Iran's president vowed to. address the country's economic [music]. problems, but showed no signs of backing.

off a harsh crackdown on demonstrators. That crackdown, activists say, may have. killed as many as 200 people over the. past few days. So, Iran's in big. trouble. [music] It looks to me that the. people are taking over certain cities. that nobody thought were really possible. just a few weeks ago. Meanwhile, the. Trump administration is [music] warning. Iran's leaders that it could strike Iran. if the regime continues [music] to kill. peaceful protesters.

The Times reports that US military. leaders have begun to brief President. Trump on options for such strikes. If. they start killing people like they have. in the past, >> [music]. >> we will get involved. We'll be hitting. them very hard where it hurts. And that doesn't mean boots on the. ground, but it means hitting them very, very hard where it hurts. So, And [music] the Trump administration is. escalating its long-running feud with. the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell, by opening a criminal.

investigation into his conduct. >> [music]. >> The investigation centers around whether. Powell lied to Congress [music] about. the scope of a multi-billion-dollar. renovation project of the Fed's. headquarters. But, Trump's original conflict with. Powell stems from his unwillingness to. significantly slash interest rates as. President Trump had demanded, a reality. >> [music]. >> that Powell highlighted in a video. released on Sunday night.

The threat of criminal charges is a. consequence of the Federal Reserve. setting interest rates. >> [music]. >> based on our best assessment of what. will serve the public, rather than. following the preferences of the. president. [music]. Today's episode was produced by Nina. Feldman, Lindsay Garrison, Olivia. [music] Nat, and Ricky Niyazov. It was. edited by Lexi Dio, contains research. [music] help from Susan Lee, music by. Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, and Alicia.

Bedu, >> [music]. >> and was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. Special thanks to Mitch Smith and. Nicholas Bogel-Burroughs. >> [music]. >> That's it for The Daily. I'm [music] Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.