Holder: How Dems will use POWER against Trump after HISTORIC rebuke

Greetings and welcome back to Clock It, where there is no rest for the weary. Eugene is on the road right now, and I am flying back out tomorrow. But we are going to bring you all our reporting. right here in this feed. The episode you are about to hear, or watch, is the conversation Eugene and I recorded. on Saturday, November 7th at CrookedCon. That is a gathering of journalists, strategists, and. politicians. hosted by Crooked Media. And it happened in Washington, D.C., where everyone in attendance was excited. to keep riding that blue wave. We invited former Attorney General Eric Holder. to the group chat. A.G. Holder was one of the masterminds. behind the Democrats' response to mid-decade redistricting. So we talked to him about that, the future of the Department of Justice, the filibuster, and whether he has any plans. to run for president in 2028. Enjoy. Franklin Roosevelt knew how to acquire and use power.

Lyndon Johnson knew how to acquire and use power. And so now that we have this power, we have to use it. Republicans get power and then they use it. for the special interest, the billionaires, the oligarchs. We need to get power and then use it. as Democrats do for the people. (upbeat music). (audience cheering). - For these purposes, I'm gonna sit right here for now. - Yes, can you hear us? - Well, well, well. - Hello, everybody. - Greetings. (audience cheering). - How are y'all feeling? 'Cause I imagine y'all feeling really good after Tuesday. (audience cheering). - I thought that might be the crowd for this. - Perhaps it is the confidence. We are so excited you all are here. Greetings, I am Simone Sanders Townsend, and you are now in the weekly politics group chat. that we call Clock It. Welcome, welcome, welcome.

(audience cheering). - And I'm Eugene Daniels. Welcome to the chat and to this special live episode. of Clock It at Crooked Con. We are so excited to be taking part in this. We're living history right now, every day it feels like. Very close to Mississippi. My girl been talking about. Mississippi longer than anybody else. Things are happening. We shall see historically great time for. Democrats and historically. disappointing for Republicans. You know, Eugene, you call it. disappointing. I call it a good old-fashioned ass-whooping if. you ask me. And you know one of the ways Democratic voters. whooped on the Republican Party was by refusing to allow. mid-decade. redistricting and partisan gerrymandering to take away. their voting rights. to be very clear, specifically black people in this country. - Black people in the South, exactly. (audience applauding). Republican efforts to redraw districts. to make black electives vulnerable. backfired over and over and over again. They spent millions of dollars, all their political capital, and got none to show for it.

So who better to talk to in the aftermath. than the legal mind behind resisting those efforts? - Yes, we are talking about the current chairman. of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. and the former Attorney General of the United States, literally living history himself. - Living history. Welcome to the group chat, Mr. Eric Holder. (audience cheering). - Well, well, well. - Morning. We didn't get no standing ovation. You got a standing ovation. - I know, right? They got up. - I guess you gotta be an attorney general. to get a standing ovation. - But I mean, to be honest, you say we're living history. He is living black history. This is the first attorney general. of the United States of America. that also happened to be black. (audience applauding). - Lot of melanin in this attorney general. (laughing). There you go. - Where can I get one of those leather things?

- This is a woman's jacket, so in the women's section. I have a couple different sizes. - I'm in touch with my feminine side, so I can do that. - Yeah, okay. - We'll switch it out. Take your blue jacket after this. - Okay, that's fine, that works. - So, General Holder, well, I'll tell that story later. Let's start with the news. - Uh-oh. Yeah, she scares me when she says stuff like that. - Did you think your efforts would be this successful? - I have to tell the truth, right? - Yeah. - I thought that we were gonna be successful, but not to this degree. I mean, I thought that we had done a lot to dismantle. that which Donald Trump tried to put in place. with these mid-decade redraws, we thought we had really kind of, you know, destroyed that which they were trying to do. But with the turnout that we had coupled with our efforts, we end up with numbers that I did not truthfully expect, but I'm real happy with. (audience applauding). - Why do you think it was so successful? Because, you know, I went around the country. talking to voters, and what I kept hearing from people.

was that they were angry that things like this were happening. They were angry that billionaires thought they could. buy seats, right? You had, even in Georgia, the man who was running against and. lost to Keisha Lance Bottoms, the first black woman to be governor in this country. We got a governor in Georgia whose name is Keisha. Come on, man. There you go. He spent $200 million of his own money. So with that and all of the ways in which they tried to. redistrict and Donald Trump. Told Texas and then the other states to give them some seats. that felt like why people were motivated in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean they came out and said essentially black folks. We're gonna take away from you hard-won rights that you have. and we're gonna take away your ability to vote. We're gonna make it more difficult for you to vote and to. more to Americans more generally. They said you know what? We're gonna decide who our voters are as opposed to you. deciding who your. Representatives ought to be and the American people thought. about that and said no. I don't think that's going to work that way.

I always say that the American people are slow to rouse, hard to get focused on things, but once we get focused on something, we are a mighty force. And if you don't believe that, just look at what happened on Tuesday. It said, "Hell no, it's not going to happen.". - And also, gerrymandering only works. if people behave the same way that they did. when you're drawing it. And when you piss everybody off. and making everything expensive, they're going to behave a little differently maybe. And that's what happens. - I guess, well, yes, but people, to be honest, I feel like they thought they could do it. because it had been working for them. They gerrymandered North Carolina's state legislature. and the congressional maps there. They gerrymandered Wisconsin. They did some gerrymandering in Mississippi. Like, it was working for them until they didn't. - And don't think they're gonna stop. I mean, let's get ready here. You know, we had a good night on Tuesday, and so that's, we like to say. that's not the end of the game, that's just the end of that quarter. And now the fight continues. because they've already started to talk about.

taking powers away from the Lieutenant Governor in Texas, the powers away from the Governor in Texas. This notion that they have. that they should be the party in power, regardless of the number of votes that they have, that's part of the Republican DNA now. And so it's up, it's upon, I think it's really important that we understand. that we can glory in that which we've done, but understand that there's still a lot more work to do. - What do you think Republicans got wrong. about the American people? Don't take all 40 of our minutes left, but. - Well, they underestimated the intelligence. of the American people, you know, and trying to say, like even now in their explanations, Vance comes out and says it was all about the Iran war. No, it was a total rejection of Trump. and all that they have tried to do. You know, this notion that somehow or other they could, as I said before, you know, take away rights, tell people that, you know, we know better than you. in terms of who should be in state legislatures, who can be in Congress.

And people said, no, we're just not gonna have that. And you know, Trump in that little march to the White House. during it, when he went to the helicopter and said, I'm gonna get five more seats in Texas, that awakened something, I think, in people's consciousness thinking, Wait a minute, you're gonna do what? And he said, "We're entitled to them.". That's not something that the American people wanna hear. And then after the Calais decision, and you saw what happened in Southern states. where they decided, all right, we got Supreme Court says, all right, we can take away people's rights. as long as we say it's partisan gerrymandering. And then they do things that have a racial intent. Black folks said, no, we're not gonna let that happen. And so they energized, focused the American people on this election, and we've seen the results. - So, I wanna talk about black voters in the South, but first, I do think we should maybe talk about. you and the National Democratic Redistricting Committee, because what exactly do y'all do?

- Well, briefly, we kick ass. (audience cheering). But we were formed up in 2017 after, if you remember the shellacking that Democrats took in 2010, Republicans took advantage of that and put in place. gerrymanders that lasted for the course of a decade. And we were designed to focus on that and come up with a way in. which, as we say, we just wanted to make the line-drawing fair. My belief is that if the system is fair, Democrats, progressives, will do just fine. We don't need to put. our thumb on the scale. And so we have had a state-by-state strategy of going. after these gerrymanders. Some places we sue, we bring litigation. Other places, we will come up with ways in which we can. generate interest among the people in a particular state. so that they get focused on that. We've got cutting edge technology. We have a whole variety of ways in which we can go after. We support candidates who are in a position. to have an impact on gerrymandering.

That means governors, state legislators, Supreme Court justices, the auditor in Ohio. You know, we identify all the people who can have an impact. and then make sure that we have the right people in place. to do the right thing. And we've also said we're gonna play the long game. That's something that, you know, it's not just this cycle, it's not just this election. We started in 2017. I said, I'm gonna stick with this through the next. redistricting in 2031. And I think we have seen slow but steady progress. I mean, Wisconsin used to be one of the most, you know, gerrymandered states in the country. And we've done away with the gerrymander just about there and. certainly, you know in Michigan. Yeah, what do you think Democrats now that they have. will have power in jail on starting January 3rd? What should they work on when it comes to how this country. redistricts? Well, I think first of the easy thing the easy thing the most. direct way to do. This is to use the power that we have in the federal in federal. legislature the Congress to simply ban.

partisan gerrymandering to ban mid-cycle redistricting. A nice. standalone bill. that says... I bet there's some Republicans that will say yes. now because they got. their behind tapped. Well it's interesting because I actually. think that you can. certainly get it through the House with the huge numbers that. we have. I actually. think you might get it through the Senate given what has. happened and the. way in which the American people have reacted to this. We might. get past a. filibuster you know if we have 56 members I think we're gonna. win Alaska. we're gonna miss Mississippi, we have 56 members. (audience applauding). And so the ability to find four Republicans, I don't think is beyond that possibility. So I think that's the most direct thing. that I think we can do. - So, how do I wanna put this? - Uh-oh. (laughing). - I feel as though that, I like to say when they go low, you gotta go toe to toe. Sometimes when they go low, you gotta kick 'em. - Somebody said that once.

- As Cardi B says, "You gotta go to hell.". - Take it to him. They have gone, they as in the Republican Party apparatus. in this country, have gone extremely low. And so now the Democrats have power, not just in Congress, but in state legislatures, a record number. of Democratic governors in this country. I feel like it's time to kick 'em. And by kick 'em, I think that there needs to be. there needs to be a laser focus on, for one, these maps. Like, all of these state. legislatures, just because in Alabama, Shemari figures one, that doesn't. mean that there should not be advocacy out there and there. should be a push in. the Alabama State Legislature to change the maps again. That. doesn't mean that. someone shouldn't bring litigation. Just because... Don't get complacent is what you're saying. Yeah, do not... I just really, I don't want to be a wet blanket. You know, I've been sitting next to. Michael Steel too long, he's always the contrarian. But like, it's not over. Tuesday was a great night. But there is real work to be done.

And just because Democrats won under these existential, ridiculous, gerrymandered circumstances, doesn't mean we need to continue to try to win. under these existential, ridiculous, gerrymandered circumstances. - Right. We have power. And you know, I always say that. Democrats and progressives are uncomfortable with the. acquisition and the use of power. Don't say too much. I put that in the book. I talked to a. little bit. And that's got to stop that's got to stop Franklin Roosevelt. knew how to acquire and use power. Lyndon Johnson knew how to acquire and use power. And so. now that we have this power we have to use it. Republicans get power and then they use it for the special. interest, the. billionaires, the oligarchs. We need to get power and then use. it as Democrats do. for the people. And that means, that means going after these. maps that still exist.

You know, it shouldn't have to be that you have a generational. turnout of black. people to overcome a gerrymander and think that you're gonna. continue to do. that in every cycle. It simply needs to be fair. And so the. battles that we've. in fighting at the NDRC will continue, through litigation, through support of people. who will stand for fairness. We'll use, again, our cutting edge techniques. The battle-- I like to think I'm a World War II guy. Maybe this analogy will be lost on you all. Hope not. We've just had Normandy, and that's fine. But there are still a whole bunch. of battles to have before the war is won. And so we are still committed to that. And I hope that people will stay focused on this issue. and that we will use this power, use the damn power that we have on the federal level. as well as you said, and very importantly, at the state level. - Democrats now hold-- - As for popular vote compact.

- Democrats now hold a trifecta in 22 states, Republicans only in 17. So there's a lot of work across the board that they can do. - Every battleground state, a Democratic governor sits in that seat. 75% of the population of this country has a Democratic. governor. Like, the, the, it's, we need a new word for waves, tsunami, shellacking, thumping, ass kicking. - Ass whooping. - That don't even cut it either. Like, that's just one ass. It was everybody's ass. (laughing). How? - It's like when you used to get in trouble. with your siblings at my parents' house. for lying us up. - Lying you up. - You have a little chit-chat. and then everybody get their little whooping together. - Correct. That's what it was. Very long line. - Back in the day, now apparently you don't hit the. kids. - Don't hit your kids. - Okay, I'm not advocating for people, put them in timeout. - Yes. - They'll call child services on you, look out, look out. - Take their phone, I guess. I don't have children, I have a dog. One of the things that I'm wondering for you, and especially when it comes to the investigations, right? We had Robert Garcia on The Weeknd this morning. and talking about how the different things. they wanna do, right?

It's the, and the way he put it was the Trump crime family, his words, not mine. He wants to look at what happened with ICE. like there's a long list that Democrats have. But there's also the mandate, I guess, that they got to actually do something on affordability. How do you think they should balance that? Because I know people think you're just a lawyer. and an attorney general, but you have thoughts about all of this stuff. - He could be, look. - You could be an attorney general and have thoughts, you know? (audience laughing). - The people said at one point you should run for president. - Are you? - Well, no. - You thinking about that? - Huh? - Have you thought about 2028? I think about 2028 all the time, but not in that way. No, no. But I think we gotta investigate, but we also have to legislate. And we have the capacity to do both. I mean, it's not a question of either or. And the balance, we'll figure out what the balance is, but I mean, I think we need to be responsive to that. which put us in this position. to deal with the economic issues.

that people have said put them on the Democratic side, but also understand that in the polling that you all have done. at MSNL, and I think it's reflected in other places, what the main motivator for people was corruption. 90% of voters said that corruption was the number one. issue in voting. Corruption. So there's an economic thing we got to focus. on, but there's also a corruption piece that we need to bring. light to and bring out, you know, put people, put some of these billionaires, these oligarchs, put them under oath in front of, you know, Congressional committees, call these folks from the. administration, make them raise their right. hands. Now they'll stall and all that stuff, but we got to make. sure that we have a process by which. we do all this stuff quickly so that they don't get to run out. the clock like they did the first. time during the Biden years through the use of the courts. So I think we need to do both. We. can do both. Maybe Congress needs to be here more than three. days a week, you know, four days a. a week, something like that, you know? With all due respect to all my colleagues and friends, I love. 'em, you know, up on. the hill.

They don't work a lot. They do not work a lot, you are correct. Well, certainly under the Republicans, they're not. I mean, we haven't seen a Republican House call since, what, they've been gone for like. six, five, six weeks, something like that? They don't want to have to impeach Pete Hexham. This is true, they didn't want to put the bill on the floor, but it's coming due Monday, whether they like it or not. There you go. (audience cheering). Unless he resigns first, either way, we'll take it. So sir, have you talked to some of the, I know a lot of people seek your counsel. They seek your counsel on the maps. Eugene is cracking up. They do. A lot of people--. - Why is that funny? 'Cause I know where she's going. - No, I just, a lot of people seek your counsel. They seek your counsel on the maps. They seek your counsel on some of these legal issues. I would like to argue that I think. that you have been quite crystal clear, especially over the, I would argue over the last two years, especially like speaking up and speaking out. and really just laying a roadmap down. I said to the team, I said, you know, Eric Holder, he's a little radical. Y'all don't know, he's got thoughts.

- Born and raised in New York City, I don't know anything but that, you know? - So what have your conversations been like then. with the incoming Democratic leadership? Because I know that they are talking to you. - Yeah, and they're focused. And I'm really confident about what it is. that they're going to do. They understand the moment that we have. They understand the power that they have recently received. They understand the needs of the American people. And I think that you're gonna be happy. with the way in which they approach this new session. In speaking with Hakeem, Joe Morelli, Susan Del Bene, Catherine Clark, talking to these folks in the house. They are gonna use this power to do, as I said, investigate as well as legislate. And I think that is something, you know, with the understanding that even all the bills. that they pass, even if you get through filibusters, you know, Trump may veto 99.999% of them, but there's still a value in passing bills. to say to the American people,

you put us here to do certain things, we've done them. And but for a veto, but for a filibuster, you would have, for instance, the subsidies restored. when it comes to health care, you know? And then a whole variety of other things as well. So I think they're ready. It's not like I've had to coach them, direct them. They're in a good space. - Do you think that the American people. are gonna accept that reasoning, right? It's true, right? It will be the filibuster, it will be Trump not vetoing. But I'm thinking about during the Biden years. And the fight to get rid of the filibuster, obviously Sinema and Manchin were pains in that. But when I was talking to voters and people, they didn't care about that. They don't care about like Senate arcane rules. And so I guess my question to you is, how should Democrats one message that? And should they get rid of the filibuster? Like should they get rid of everything. that is in front of them to make things happen. for the American people?

Yeah, I mean certainly there's a communications piece to this. I mean people as I just talked about, you know, if there are. filibuster problems if there are vetoes. We've got to make the American people understand as we're going. along. They just vetoed this bill. That's why you know, we want to. have single bills. You know on each subject not some big omnibus bill something. that you can say. All right, we propose that you ban partisan gerrymandering and. that you ban. mid-cycle redistricting. They voted against it and it didn't. become law for. the, "All right, let's talk about that. Let's go to the next. thing. We voted for. the restoration of health care subsidies." They voted against. it. "All right, you. didn't get it because of them." So there's that communications. component that I. think is extremely important. And I think if we do that, I. think people will, and. it's also important to act quickly, you know? First. impressions matter, whether. you're picking a spouse, you know, whatever. (audience laughing). Fortunately, you know, my wife was impressed. with my first impression.

I've disappointed her since then, but you know. - Yeah, the first impression was good. - The first is the only one that mattered. - The first one was bad. And so I think we've got to do this stuff quickly. We can't be looking at doing this course. over the course of the first year. Kind of a hundred days strategy, a Roosevelt kind of thing. Let's do as much as we can as quickly as we can. (audience applauding). The crowd likes Eric Holder. Well, along those lines then, can we just talk about the internet for a second? - Oh, Lord. Is this a technical question? - No, it is about the people on the internet. There is, I asked you what your conversations were. with the incoming Democratic leadership, and I thought it was important, frankly, that people hear you say that you didn't have to coach 'em. like they're there, because the internet would have you believe. that these folks are not ready for prime time. The internet would have you believe that, you know, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer need to ride on off into. the sunset. because they don't know what they're doing and we have to. find some random new leadership.

to lead us out of the wilderness when didn't we just get out the. damn wilderness on Tuesday? So, well... [laughter]. So, I just, I do think that there is, um, it's an. interesting conundrum. because while the internet is not real life, that's what we. used to always say on campaigns, The internet does influence what happens in real life. The conversations online make their way. into people's dinner tables, like the barbershops, the beauty shops, your group chats, right? And I do think that there is a tendency. for our personal feeds to feel like the public square, and that is in fact not the case. - Yeah, and all right, so between now and January the 3rd, there'll be a lot of conversation, a lot of expressed dissatisfaction, Anticipatory dissatisfaction all of that can be done away with by. making sure that you do the kinds of things that I just. talked about. You know by introducing bills by acting quickly and then it's. like, all right. They'll still be people who'll be there always gonna be some. people gonna be dissatisfied. And so, you know those folks you. can never.

make feel good about things. but if. They do the actions that I think they're capable of doing that. they're planning on doing a lot of the criticism that we're now. hearing. will be belied by the facts of performance. - Yeah, we had Ken Martin on the podcast this week. Y'all should go listen to it. We talked to a bunch of people, Vice President Harris. We called a cacophony of folks. to figure out how they were thinking about it. And he is someone who got a lot of flack for a long time. - Flack is a kind word. - I'm trying to be nice. This is my air on television. And some of these people might have given them. some flack in here. But he heard from a lot of folks. And he, when I talked to him, he said he stayed focused. and they were able to make sure that they got the money out. and the things happened and Democrats had a good day. on Tuesday. So what it sounds like to me is you're saying is. you have to try to figure out how to ignore the internet, but that is where the activists and the pushers are, right? That's where the folks who push the party. and push the establishment. - And they need to be pushed. - And they need to be pushed.

- Should be clear, off the top. - I was gonna say, I wouldn't ignore. I mean, I look at things, you know, every now and again I go into the comments. about something I might have said. out the comments. Not usually, not usually, every now and. again, but every once in a while I look and say, "Well, that's a, that's actually a fair criticism and maybe I need to. tweak something there." So there might be some, you know, criticism. that's valid, some, some suggestions about tactics that. might be things that, you know, you, you, you want to consider. But let's not get carried away with the noise. Let's ultimately. focus on the performance. Even Eric Holder is reading the comments, ladies and gentlemen. That is not, no. No one is immune. That does not mean you. get to read the comments. - I said only occasionally. - Okay, me and her husband have been trying to work on this. for a very long time to keep her out the comments. - I am no longer responding in the comments. I used to respond. - But you're in them. You're watching. - To respond to comments? - Yeah. - I never do that. - Yeah, where's Richard? The PR team would like me to stop. - No, no, no. Now my mom responds for me, which is also a problem. - Extremely problematic. - She's meaner than I am. - As we sit here and have this conversation, sir,

we talked about Democrats having control in the Senate. We talked about 55, maybe 56 seats with Alaska, Mississippi. Let's talk about Mississippi. Now, yes, we can clap for Mississippi. Mississippi is on the verge of electing its Democratic Senator, Scott Cullen. He would be the first. African-American senator to represent Mississippi since. Reconstruction. 1874. Crazy. But the way in which, if Scott is successful, and I mean looking at the numbers, I do think he is going to be successful. But the way in which that win came about. wasn't some random thing from on high. To the point that you made about the work. that the National Democratic Redistricting Committee does, there were lots of groups on the ground there prior to this, you know, tilling the ground, I would argue, to make something like this possible. Last year, in 2025, Democrats broke the supermajority. in the Mississippi State Legislature. after the Mississippi State Supreme Court.

said they had to redraw their maps. 'cause the maps weren't fair. So just talk about, one, your thoughts. on this race in Mississippi, the history, yes, that's about to be made, but is that a model for what can happen. in other states in the South, like Louisiana? - To add on, good candidates. Like Scott Colum is Mississippi down. Like he represents Mississippi. He is also someone who, when Trump came to town, he went to the Trump rally and talked to Trump voters in line. and got some of those people to say that they would vote for. him. So, like, it's all of the things that Simone said, but it's also running people who are of the community in a real. way. Yeah, I mean, I think there are lessons to be learned in. Georgia, lessons to be learned in Mississippi and in Texas as. well. You know, Stacey Abrams deserves a lot of credit. for what's happened in Georgia. But also Beto O'Rourke deserves a lot of applause. for what he did in Texas.

He lost an election and then didn't just go hide, he put in place a program so that he reached out. to young people, especially got them more involved. in the process. And so I think that's the thing, we gotta play the long game. We gotta look at infrastructure and build those things. so that when we get good candidates, they have an infrastructure upon which. they can call upon and be successful. And it's, again, playing the long game. It's like Beto could have said, Stacy could have said, we lost, and therefore, I'm going to get out of politics. I'm going to do something else. They stayed engaged. They stayed involved. And the success of Keisha, Gina is a direct result of the work. that those folks did. And making sure that you focus on the long game. and understanding they're going to have losses along the way. It's not gonna be just all progress. They're gonna be setbacks, but you learn from those setbacks. And you go and do something different the next time. or change things the next time, and then you're ultimately successful.

But candidate selection really, really matters. Having people who sound authentic, who are authentic, who are perceived that way, they're not seen as some kind of blow-dried. person from central casting who said, "This is what a senator ought to look like. this is what a governor ought to look like, bring them out there with their imperfections. People talk about code switching, and if you're an African American, you gotta sound a certain way. Well, maybe that's not--. - You may, hello, my name is Eugene Daniels. - Hi, I'm Eric Holder, and it's very good to see you here today. And I think we've seen that that's not necessarily the case. You come out there and you just be who you are, talk about what it is that you wanna do, and people can identify with that. People can get behind that. So then I think maybe the consult people need to have a. conversation with the consultants because it is it is. I have seen many a times where you know. the the candidate the individual would like to go out there and. be their authentic self and. Somebody is like that doesn't really work or we don't want to.

offer who do they do that to? Because they don't do it to white men. I assume I've never. seen it happen to a white man. I don't think so. I've worked for a lot of them. (audience laughing). So I mean, I just think that the candidates, the people themselves, like they understand, but I think there's a culture in our political ecosystem. of the people that help these folks get elected. where they do not understand. There are people that do think how, like there are people that do think. that maybe Scott Pullum needs to polish it up a little bit. And it's like, y'all ain't never been to Mississippi. Everybody in Mississippi talks like that. - Everyone. - Literally everyone. The governor speaks that way. But there is, I just think that people still don't believe. that like, we're enough as we are. Even though Georgia literally has a governor named Keisha, the next speaker at the house is gonna be named Hakeem. Like at one point, the vice president of the United States was Kamala. Like the president was Barack. (audience laughing). Like what more do we need to do for you to understand. that like it's okay for us to just show up as we are?

- No, I think that's exactly right. At the end of the day, the question's gonna be, how do you perform? The notion that Barack Obama, I mean, think about it. We all do, Barack Obama, does that sound like a strange name now? No, and that's because he was a damn good president. He communicated with people, he reached people, he got beyond the name and people said, I kinda like this guy. And the same thing is gonna be true. of these other candidates. we gotta start having faith in ourselves, you know, faith in ourselves and also in that which we stand for. You know, Democrats, they say Democrats have lost touch. with the working class. That always like, bothers me. It's kind of like, that's who we are. We can't forget our roots. You know, we gotta understand history. And you know, this split in the Democratic Party. between, you know, moderates, progressives, you know, DSA, whatever. You know, at the end of the day,

Democrats are really kind of united all around reaching. certain goals. The battle is only with regard to the tactics that we use to. get to those goals. We want a better health care system. Some people Medicare for. all, some people other things. But, you know, we need to focus on that which made this a great. party. And I go back to Roosevelt. He's one of my guys, you know, 1932, the New Deal. And that stayed in place, that coalition stayed in place for a. good, you know, 40 years or so. We need to get back to that kind of stuff. and communicate with people in ways. that Democrats have always had the capacity to do. It may mean putting some distance between us. and the corporate types who we become, I think, in some ways, maybe a little too close to, and getting back to a focus on the issues. that matter to the people. And it really just means going back to being Democrats. You know, that's all. Who are we as Democrats? what has made us great, what has made this party great? It's when we have been responsive to the people. - Now I know you say you're not running for president,

but that did sound very campaign-y, but I'm gonna move. on. - I'm too old to run for president. - Tell a lot of other people that, sir, 'cause you know, you're not. But I imagine that you've also talked. to some of the 2020-aters, and that none of them have said they're running yet, but next week we should expect some. Who do you have your eyes on? And more importantly. (laughing). - He said all. - Who do you have your eyes on? But more importantly, what do you think the person who ends up being the candidate. who ends up being the nominee. needs to be able to convince the American people of? - Well, a person, I think the next successful Democratic candidate, and I think we're gonna win in 28. I think we're gonna win at 28. But that person has got to understand. that he or she's got to seize the moment. And again, this is not a time for timidity. Again, having confidence in who we are,

what the program is, what you ran on. Don't come here and let the pundit class tell you. you can't say that, you can't do this. You gotta focus on only one thing. When I was AG, they told me you can only have. two or three things that you focus on. And I said, wait a minute, I only have a limited amount. of time as AG, I'm gonna focus on as many things as I want. I got great people at the Justice Department. who will work long hours, who will work hard, and will push in a whole bunch of different areas. And that's the same thing I think that the next president, the next candidate has gotta be able to do. There's a whole range of things that we're gonna have. to correct going from one administration to the other, but going from this administration to the next one, is a whole bunch of really bad stuff. that we have to do away with. And so don't be shy, you know? Don't think that you're gonna alienate people. Don't be so concerned about, "If I do something in '28, what's the impact gonna be in the 2030 midterms?". No, don't worry about that. Do what you say you were gonna do during the campaign,

and the 2030 midterms will work out just --. they'll work out by themselves. -If a Democrat wins the 2028 presidential campaign, When they are sworn in in 2029, do you think they should fire. all the people from the Justice Department that the Trump. administration hired? I'm no, I don't know about firing all of them. But I don't think that there should be a presumption that. because you are in the Justice Department. And not in a in a non-political position that you should remain. there. I mean Harmeet Dhillon staffed the Civil Rights Division of the. United States Department of Justice with a bunch of. extremists and ideologues. They got to go. - How do you identify them? And I'm asking because I've gotten mixed reviews. You're the first attorney general I've been able. to ask about this, but I've asked some people. that might have been your deputies at one point in time, and there are mixed reviews. People are like, oh, you don't want to go out. and target people. - And it's like retribution. - Retribution, and I'm like, this is why they not scared of y'all.

This is why the Republicans are not scared of the Democrats, 'cause y'all worried about what they gonna say. I'm not worried about what they're gonna say, but then. again, I won't be the Attorney General of the United States. But they're gonna say it in your the president, but they're gonna. say I would vote for Simone for president when y'all this. There's too many clips out too many clips. then but I mean like this is one of the things with Democrats is. that they. The Republicans are gonna say the thing anyway, right? And so for someone who thinks they're a moderate and considers. themselves moderate or an establishment person. They're like, oh, I don't want them to call me a socialist. They're doing it. anyway. They're calling Hillary Clinton a socialist. Like it. doesn't, they call Kamala. Harris a socialist. Like it's not a top-down. - Well, it's just like before I was saying on the internet, you. ignore the noise, well. ignore the Republican noise as well. You know, I mean, just. because they say it, they're. gonna say it, like you said, they're gonna say it in any. case. I mean, how do you identify. these people? Well, let's see, anybody who put their names on a. pleading for these specious.

lawsuits. Okay. I mean, really? Bye. You know, bye, Felicia. You. know, you know, probably not named Felicia. All right, whatever, you know, talk. to the hand. Whatever. Bye, Bob. Yeah. I mean, Sarah. Those people need. to go. You can also. identify people looking at where they worked before, positions. that they've. taken on a variety of issues. Yeah, in some ways this makes me. uncomfortable, comfortable, but I've got to deal with the reality here. I can't have the next assistant attorney general. for the Civil Rights Division committed to those things. that the Civil Rights Division has always been focused on, have as soldiers people who don't believe. in the mission of the department. Now, fortunately, there's a lot of empty space there, because a lot of people have left. And so we need to come up with ways. in which we expedite the hiring of lawyers into the department. so that we re-people the Justice Department. with well-intentioned people, but I would not be afraid of identifying, you know, we want a diversity of thought. in the Justice Department.

We don't want all people from, you know, one ideological perspective. And people need to understand something also, that I worked for 12 years at DOJ. when I came out of law school. It's not a cool thing in the Department of Justice. to talk about political things. It's not a cool thing to ask, "Are you a Republican, you're a Democrat?". You know, that's just not the way. in which the department is constructed. But that's what these folks have imposed. upon a storied institution. And we have got to, given all the power. that the Justice Department has, we have to be unafraid to really identify. that which has happened, identify the people who made it happen, and get rid of them. - When you, look, they're very happy over here. When you look at the DOJ right now, and we've all had, we both had you on our shows before, But I think it's important for people to hear from you on this. issue is that Todd Blanche. said yesterday that Stephen Miller does have a lawyer, it's.

me, his quote. And that is the-. He said that? Yes, sir, he did. Yes, he did. And that is the- imagine that's not what you thought when you. were the Attorney General. I imagine you didn't think-. I wasn't Rahm Emanuel's lawyer. Exactly. So I guess when you think of all of the work that has to be done, even beyond like figuring. out who deserves to be there and who really speaks to what the. DOJ is supposed to do, who's not bringing their politics to the job, how do. people, how do you fix the Justice. Department after all this? Because the damage feels generational at this point. The expectations from the American people are different at. this point. I mean, I think replacing people is relatively easy. bringing on people who believe in the mission of the Justice. Department is not that difficult a thing to do. Restoring the reputation of the Justice Department is going to. be more difficult. To have people think of the Justice. Department. as it always has been thought of, generally thought of, as a. neutral.

body that really focused on the facts and the law precedent. You didn't have an attorney general who said, you can't have. an attorney general who says, you know, I work for. Stephen Miller, I work for Donald Trump, as opposed to I work for the American people. And so convincing the American people. that that in fact is true of this newly formed, newly constituted Justice Department. is gonna take some time. And so I think the next AG is gonna have to spend time, you know, doing podcasts, getting out there. and talking to people about, you know, you can't just sit on the fifth floor. of the Justice Department here in Washington, DC. You're gonna have to be out there and talking to the people. and making folks have a belief in the Department of Justice. that has, I think, generally always existed, but has certainly been destroyed. by the current leaders of the department. - Okay, one more on this then. I'm very interested that you said. the next AG needs to be doing podcasts. They can definitely come on Clock It. We would like to hear from them. Who is working on this plan then right now? Do you know of folks?

I have to imagine that all of the former legal eagles. and the former Democratic attorney generals like yourself. and others that are still around, y'all are working, but I would imagine you care a lot about this. Are you all advising some people and working on a plan. regardless of which Democrat wins in 2028? - And is all y'all in a group chat, like you, Loretta, and Merrick. - What's Loretta Lynch talking about? - Well, I'll let them identify themselves. - I knew he was gonna do that. - As, but there are, no, there are groups. working on these very issues and talking about. what a new justice department should look like. One person who has been identified. and has identified herself is Vanita Gupta. - Yes. - Who used to be the head. of the Civil Rights Division, was the head of, then was the Associate Attorney General. She's got a group of folks, she's working out of NYU, and she's working with a group to look at these issues. and come up with ways in which you get. the department back on track. But there are other groups as well. who I've been in touch with, And there are some thoughtful people with some good ideas. who are basically unafraid.

And I think if the next president will listen. to the things that they are talking about, look at the paper that they're gonna produce, you can get the department back on track relatively quickly. - So they won't be starting from scratch. Okay, so we are gonna play a game. that we like to play with folks called This or That. - That means we're getting towards the end now. - We are towards the end. - We are free soon, we promise. - We are rabid. - Okay, so this or that, Washington DC or New York? - Well, now I was born and raised in New York. I've lived in DC for almost 50 years. - Not the mm. - How old are you? (laughing). Wait, I'm like, how old are you? - It's like when Kevin Hart was like, damn. You're not supposed to ask a gentleman his age. I'm 75. - 75. - But--. (audience cheering). Black does not crack. Good black don't crack. Good black don't crack. Yeah, because if you eat--. You are not 75. You got your driver's license on you? 1951. That's me.

He is married now. [LAUGHTER]. So I'm really torn on that one. New York, I always still think of as home. I root for all the New York athletic teams, Nixon 5. But I love this city and I think I've lost my New York City. survival skills. You know, I can hang in New York now for about four or five days. and I'm going. like, "Oh, I gotta get out." - Much happens. - So I think. that's a push. I love both. - You have to pick one. - You do. - It felt like you picked. DC. - Yeah, but I have an. emotional attachment to 147th Street. - He is running for. president, look at this. I love Harlem. That's where I grew up, you know, early on. I. mean, it's hard. I can't pick between those two. All right. All right. We ain't got time for this. Yankees or Mets? Mets. Oh, that was very fast. I was born in Queens. You can walk from my house to Shea. Stadium. Yankees, you know, that's like all the big wigs,

all the money folks. You know, the people, the regular folks, we like the Mets. are the descendants basically of the Dodgers. That's me. - Who did you root for for the first 11 years? - I don't know what that means. - First 11 years of what? - Of your life. - When we didn't have a National League team? Well, you know, so then I'd root for, when the Yankees were in the World Series, in the 50s, I'd root for the Milwaukee Braves. I didn't like the Yankees, okay? - This is the most sports we've ever talked about. on this podcast, okay? - You just said 11 what? - Yeah. - Thanks, sir, what are you talking about? - 1957, '58, I was Milwaukee Braves, you know? Cincinnati Reds, I was not a Yankees fan. - He said, "I'm ten toes down, not ever a Yankees fan.". - Now, the Reggie Jackson Yankees, I like those Yankees. - I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm gonna tell you. - Okay, who's the better basketball player,

Barack Obama or Arnie Duncan? - Arnie's a smoker. He's an underestimated, that's a white boy. you can play some ball. (audience laughing). - What do you think is a great, this is not a fun question, unfortunately. What do you think is a greater threat. to America's democracy, gerrymandering or voter ID laws? - I think gerrymandering. You know, voter ID laws, it's interesting, voter ID laws can be constructed in such a way. that they're not problematic. When you talk about photo ID as opposed to voter ID, there's a big difference there. It's one of the few places that I agreed with Senator Manchin, and when he was Secretary. of State in West Virginia, he had a whole variety of ways in. which you could prove that. you were the person you claimed to be at the polling place. And so I think gerrymandering is actually a greater threat. I also say if they were real serious about voter ID laws, they would put some money in. a budget to give the state some money to provide voter ID to the. American people. Correct. I mean, it costs to get a license or a permit.

If you don't have the money or the time to go down to the local. DMV, you are locked out of the access to it. So like, first of all, make them free. Exactly. Okay. If you don't make them free, you're basically putting in. place a poll tax. Come on now. When they go low, we kick them. Or when they go low, you need to go toe to toe. When they go low, we use the power that we have. - No. (audience laughing). You are not about to get this man to say, "Kick him on stage.". - I said that at one point, and then people were talking about, "Oh, Eric Holder is preaching violence.". They're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.". No, I mean, the deal is we have to deal with reality. You know, like with regard to this gerrymandering thing. When Trump said, "We're gonna get those five seats,". I think they expected Democrats to clutch our pearls. - I did. And so, you know, I'd write an op-ed I do I'd go on I come on. with you guys and we said oh hell no.

That ain't happening. And so what we did was we fought them. We decided this is not something we're gonna allow to have happen. We energized the base. We file lawsuits. We got people. involved. We got people's consciousness raised about. The problem of gerrymandering and so the the lesson of it is. you got a fight you have to fight. Last one. This might be the hardest one. - This is the most important question. The weekend with Eugene Daniels, Jackie Alimany, and Jonathan Capehart, or--. - Or the weeknight with Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, and Luke Russert. - It's been great talking to you all folks. (laughing). Hey y'all, that's it? Is that the last question? - Which is it, sir? Which is it? - I ain't going there. You all have the ability to edit what I say, and I'm not gonna let--. - You know me longer than you know Eugene. - He's known Jonathan Capehart longer than he's known you. - Well, they're both--. - I'll let you all work this one out. - You know? - Go for both of them, exactly right.

- There we go. Thank you guys so much for this episode of Clock It. Thank you, sir, for joining us. You can listen to the podcast each week on Apple Podcasts. or wherever you're used to listening, or you can catch us on YouTube at ms.now/clockit. And now we air on the weekends, so you can see us on there as well. on there as well. And please, please, please join us next door. in the MSNOW members lounge. It is very nice. There is coffee, free food, other. activations like massages. I believe there will be. some drinks and we will be doing a live Q & A at, I don't even know. if this time is real, 1235, sometime when we get over there. So come chat with us. We will. see you there. Thank you so much for. for your time. - Thank you. - Give it up. (audience cheering). [MUSIC PLAYING]. (upbeat music). (upbeat music). (upbeat music). (upbeat music). (gentle music). [MUSIC].