Episode 804: The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway (Part 2)

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. >> I'm Alina. >> And this is Morbid. >> [music]. [music]. >> This is It's going to be morbid. She's. impatient with me because I needed to. finish my sour candy before we started. recording.

>> [laughter]. >> She [gasps] gave me the mom look of like. >> It's It's because before you said, "Should we start recording?" And I said, "Fine." And then you were like, "Okay, wait.". >> [laughter]. >> I was like, "Hey." To clarify, I did not. say, "Should we start recording?". >> I you said, "I don't want to be a dick.". >> I said, "I don't want to be a dick.". Because I guess it's a little scary. today, everybody. >> I am. I'm feeling Oh god, don't get them. going on that. >> That's true. >> [laughter]. >> I love that. >> Please don't say that. It's true. >> And then you said, >> [clears throat]. [laughter].

>> No, I just needed to eat my sour candy. because one of our listeners sent us a. whole box of yummy. >> Canadian candy. >> From um Canadia. What's What are those. called? Can you see the peach ones? >> They're called. Maynards. >> Maynards. These are called Maynards, too, though, I think. >> Yeah. I think they're just different. flavors. >> Oh, okay. So, I have Maynard Swedish. berries, and then there's Maynard Fuzzy. Peaches, I think they're called. >> Fuzzy Peaches, yep. >> Uh Swedish berries taste just like. Swedish fish, but like somehow better,

probably because they're not filled with. red dye 40. >> [laughter]. >> And like don't send me articles about. that. >> [clears throat]. >> No, I'm serious. Don't. >> I'm serious. >> I have I have 47 just landed in my. inbox. >> Oh, man. >> But uh. And then the the Fuzzy Peaches are so. good and sour. >> Peaches taste like peach rings, but not. as gummy. >> Yeah, better. Yeah. And then we got all. kinds of chips. The If you have access. to Canadian food and you're not having. the all dressed up chips. >> What are you doing with your life?

>> you doing? >> My god. >> They're everything cuz Mikey will bring. us some. >> Now that he lives in Canadia. >> Now that he left us for Canada. >> Now that he does Do they even like he. left us and like I don't even think they. bacon. >> They don't eat bacon? >> Well no, like Canadian bacon is ham so. it was kind of a joke. >> Oh, I was so I was like, what? I was. like, is that something I just haven't. known in my life? >> No, but like Canadian bacon is ham. >> Uh, that's gross. Maybe I just don't like ham. >> no, we hate ham over here. >> Yeah, this is not a ham house. >> It used to Mom used to make us a.

different What did she make us instead. of ham? Did she do roast beef? >> Yeah. >> Yeah, on Easter. And she'd say, "No, I. know you don't like ham." Everybody else. would get ham, but we would get roast. beef. >> But then when I would eat ham at John's. grandparents house for Easter cuz I. didn't want to be that person that like. I would eat it smothered in mustard. >> Wow, you're a good person. >> Yeah, she she. My girl cooked a ham. I'm not going to. Who am I? >> Oh my god, you're making. >> going to sit there and not eat it. >> Oh my god, you're making me feel so bad.

right now. >> [laughter]. >> because Drew's family eats ham and I. don't eat it. I just eat the sides. >> Literally ever I would cut it into tiny. little pieces and eat it. >> John can tell you and then I would dunk. each little piece completely in mustard. so it was only I would just taste. mustard. >> Wow. >> And then I'd be like, this is so good. Thank you for making me this ham. >> You're such a real one for that. I I. will say I [clears throat] only eat the. sides if somebody else cooks it, but I. did make a Christmas ham one year and I.

didn't eat it, but I I really I went to. town on it. >> Yeah. >> I did put all the pineapples and then. the cherries in it. I made it like Martha Stewart. So I made. one. >> Yeah, but I will not eat other people's. >> I won't even eat my own. I just I don't. eat ham. >> Yeah. >> Ham I am. >> I don't either, but. I eat mustard. >> I do eat mustard. I I can't believe how. good that is of you. >> Yeah. >> She was she was great. I wasn't going to. bum her out. >> Nana. >> Yeah, Nana for life. >> Shout out to John's Nana. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> And shout out to my family who say I.

don't eat. >> Whose ham I will never eat. >> But I love them. >> [laughter]. >> Doesn't mean I don't love you. >> The love is there. >> Yeah. >> And speaking of love, do you guys love. reading? >> I love reading. [laughter]. >> Did you guys see that transition? >> Period. >> Um guys, Butcher Legacy is coming out and we're. going on tour. >> It's coming out August 11th. >> And we'll be at Unlikely Story that. night. >> It's true. We're going to be there and. it's going to be fun and it's the. concluding trap trap chapter. I almost. said. >> Welcome to my trap chapter. [laughter].

>> The concluding chapter in this trilogy. >> Ooh. >> Remember, Doctor Rameller is a it's got. a series, but this is a trilogy within. it. [clears throat] So this is a. concluding chapter in that. >> All right. >> Um and I think you guys will dig it. >> I think you will too. >> worked hard on it. >> It's really good. >> I think you'll love it. So go ahead and. pre-order that. >> It's my favorite one in the series thus. far. >> And honestly, I've heard that from a. couple of people which has made my heart. joyful. >> Not to gosh, but you've grown anyways. >> that.

>> You bet. >> But like, you know, Richard Chizmar liked it. Patricia Cornwell liked it, you know. >> Like. >> And we're going to get. >> Stephen King to like it. I'm going to. get Stephen. >> I told [clears throat] Elena, we really. want to get Stephen just like to know. who Elena is. >> Yeah, I just want to be like, "Hey. Stephen.". >> If we get him on the [clears throat]. pod, if we get him to read a book, however we get. >> him to know. Hello Stephen. >> What I said, I should we just send him. like videos of Kristin Cavallari being. like, "Stephen!". >> "Stephen! Stephen! Come on our podcast! Stephen!" [laughter].

And all the many ways that she would say. it in the most annoyed tone. So we're. just like, "Stephen!". And he'd be like, "No. >> Unless he just makes me coming on there. >> My car is donezo. >> It's donezo. Rewatch Laguna Beach, everybody. >> It's worth it, best. >> Isn't it on like Netflix now? >> Is it? it might be. >> Oh [ __ ]. >> I might be spreading misinformation, but. [laughter]. >> I was like, I haven't watched it on. Netflix. >> it might be now. At least a couple of. the. >> Didn't you buy it on some streaming. service? >> years ago. Yeah, like I think I got it. on Prime Video cuz I was like, worth it.

>> I mean, yeah. >> But yeah, so that go, you know, pre-order The Butcher Legacy. >> All right. >> And all that good stuff. And then tell. us what you're reading this summer. >> Yeah, let us know what you're reading. >> I'm starting to read The Ninth House. >> Ooh. >> Uh it's like a spooky fantasy, like dark. academia fantasy. >> I think that. Aidan recommended that to me. He sent it. over there. Yeah, I think I have that. >> I just started it and I just haven't. cracked it open yet. >> I knew it. I I've been seeing such good. things about it.

>> And it feels really right right now cuz. it's like cozy dark academia. >> that. >> Like got all that [ __ ] but it's also. paranormal and fun. And I think it's one. and three and the third one is coming. out this fall, I believe. >> Right, September. >> Look at me. Look at that. So, I'm. excited to start it cuz I love starting. a little series that I can. >> I do too. >> I love starting a fresh book. It's I do. >> I will say one thing I like about summer. is I feel like I read more in summer. >> I always feel like I'm going to, but. then it becomes hard.

>> I get we get like a little bit more time. off, so I'm away a little bit, so I like. read while I'm away. >> Yeah. >> Um speaking of reading, shout out to. Daphne Wilsencroft. >> Oh yes. >> Wilsencroft from the Going West podcast. She was nice enough to send me and Elena. her new book, which I think just came. out. So, I think it's available. >> of Sinking Season of Sinking. I'm really. excited to start it. >> Yeah. >> I read her book Night Watcher and it was. really good. >> Yeah, she's awesome. >> 10 out of 10 recommend, so I'm excited. to crack into another one. >> Hell yeah, Daphne. >> And that is reading with Ashley and.

Elena. >> We are literate. >> And so are you. So, >> Yeah, so go get Tell us what you've been. reading. >> And now, Greg, the episode starts. So, Greg, you can clock it. I don't know how to transition out of. that into our two. >> going to talk about because. >> Yeah. >> You thought part one was rough. We got. more. >> It gets. >> It's I mean it's. >> it's just going to keep getting worse. Gary Ridgway is. a really bad guy. >> I don't think I realized like quite how.

long his crime spree lasted. >> terror. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it was a long time. He spent from. the '80s into the '90s. >> And I'm just like ow. >> And he slipped through a couple times, my friends. >> when that kind of stuff happens. That. nothing infuriates me more. >> Cuz it this could have been stopped. >> Yeah. >> Like. I mean unfortunately. he wouldn't be stopped quick enough for. damage not to like extreme damage to not. have already been done, but he could. have at least been caught and stopped.

some of this. >> Yeah. >> So, I mean part one was rough. We had. the task force that had formed the Green. River Killer Task Force. Yeah. >> Yep. >> I mean at this point they were like. talking to Ted Bundy about this [ __ ]. >> Trying to get his opinion on what was. going on. >> Yeah, and we'll get into that, but like. yeah, they were trying to get his. opinion on. >> Was he helpful? >> Uh he claimed he was. I don't. helpful. >> [laughter]. >> I think he just liked the attention. >> I was going to say he's tricky. >> Personally, he liked he liked thinking.

that he was like. well, I'm in the know cuz. we're [clears throat] of one mind, but. like you know, it's gross. >> Ted really was gross. >> He really was. They all are. So, on. September 18th, Reichert got a call. about another discovery. Reichert is our. investigator we've been talking about. this whole time. Um a local resident had been looking for. a lost chicken out by Star Lake Road, which is. >> chicken? >> And it's so wholesome. >> That is wholesome. >> You're still looking for your chicken? >> Wholesome for now.

>> And they came across across the skeletal. remains of 23-year-old Gail Matthews. After a quick review of the reports of. missing women they kept on hand, the. investigators were luckily able to. identify the remains as Matthews through. x-rays taken after a boating accident. that she had been in several years. before that. >> Um that it's always fascinating to see. how they're able to get these cuz a lot. of times dental records come from. something like that, you know? Now, Gail Matthews was a little bit of an.

outlier in this victim pool. Not only. was she like slightly older than the. previous but her missing person's report. was. a lot more detailed than what the. detectives were kind of used to at this. point. A lot of times they were getting. scattered information because a lot of. these women were living on the streets. They weren't getting the regular health. care that they normally would or. anything like that. They didn't see. their family as regularly. Their family, their friends, their you know, employers. that they would able be able to like go. back and keep tabs on. Now, Gail had been living with her.

boyfriend Kurt in a small apartment out. by the airport in 1982. And by the spring of 1983 they'd both. lost their jobs and eventually they lost. that apartment. So, they drifted around. They were kind. of like just stopping from one motel to. another for a couple months. Even before. they lost the apartment, Gail had always. contributed to the bills. She but she. never really told Kurt exactly where the. money came from. >> Okay. >> It just kind of came and he was like, all right, we'll pay the bills. >> All right.

>> Sometimes Kurt would win some money. gambling at one of the small casinos. around Seattle and they would get, you. know, if they got a little more than. they would get something a little more. upscale than the usual motel. But other. times when they had no money at all, they would have to sleep outside. >> Oh. >> Now, the last time Kurt saw Gail was on. the night of April 22nd when they went. out for a few beers at the VIP Tavern. That was like a few blocks away from the. motel. After drinking their beers and playing a. couple rounds of Pac-Man, just like. chill night, Kurt told Gail he was going.

to play some cards at another bar. nearby. He was hoping to win a little. money. And he said, "I'll see you later.". >> Okay. >> So, Gale was like, "Cool. I'm going to. do my part to try to make enough to get. a motel room for a few nights." And they. just parted ways. >> All right. >> Later that night, Kurt was walking from. one tavern to another when he spotted. Gale. She was sitting in the passenger seat of. a Ford truck stopped at a red light. He lifted his arm to wave to her like, uh, "Hello.". And he was trying to get her attention, but something about the scene, he said, felt very wrong.

>> Like immediately? >> Did he say a green truck? >> Um, it was just a, uh, Ford truck. >> Just a Ford truck, okay. >> Didn't say the, the color. But, he told FBI agent Duke DeTrick. later, when he reported Gale missing, which was the next day, he said she. seemed dazed. She was staring straight ahead. It was. bizarre. She was looking right at me, but it was as if she didn't see me. I'm. sure she could see me. It wasn't dark. out yet. So, he waved harder. Like, "Hello." And.

she continued just sitting like. stock-still. And he said her eyes were. just locked on whatever she was looking. at. >> What? >> Yeah. And it wasn't just that Gale seemed. dazed that he found to be a little odd. He said her body language also looked. really strange. >> In what way? >> He said she was sitting beside a man. that Kurt described as being in his. early 30s, wearing a plaid shirt that. made him look a little bit like an. outdoorsman. >> Okay. >> And her demeanor was.

someone that was very uncomfortable. It. looked like she was pressed up against. the passenger door, like sitting as far. away from the driver as she could. >> Oh, that makes me so sad and like. stresses me out. >> later told the agent, "I don't know how. to explain it, but I felt fear. Fear for. her because I sensed she was in danger.". >> Oh, no. >> So, he ran across the road to try to. reach the truck. He was like, "I want to. pull her out of there.". >> Yeah. >> But, by the time he got to the. intersection, the driver had pulled away. and sped down a side street. >> [sighs]. >> And he chased after the car, but he said.

quickly he realized he couldn't catch. them on foot cuz he's [laughter] he's. running. >> That night he went back to the motel. room to wait for Gail and he said he. told himself, "I'm just over. overreacting like. I this is going to be fine.". >> Yeah. >> The next morning when Gail still hadn't. returned, he called the police to report. her missing, but he was told that. because he wasn't related to her by. blood or marriage, he couldn't file an. official report. >> That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. in my life. Where did we come up with. this [ __ ] Because you're not married?

Okay, they're still partners. Like what. the [ __ ]. >> don't have people who love them? Well, I'm sorry, but like what does a. piece of paper change about that? >> That's what it's crazy. So unable to file the report or even. help like enlist the help of police. really. >> Yeah. >> Kurt decided to look for Gail on his. own. He wasn't just going to sit around. >> Wow, Kurt is a real one. >> He was a real one. He went to all their. usual hangouts and motels, but no one. had seen her. He even walked the streets. for several blocks during the day and.

night asking anyone all the other women. on the working the area if they knew. anything, but no one recalled seeing. her. >> Oh. >> Now during that period of searching, Kurt's mind said he said he regularly. thought about the Green River Killer. >> Oh wow. >> And he thought back to seeing Gail in. the truck. And he's like "Am I just remembering. that she seemed like she was dazed or. like. did I like put that on that situation. cuz now I'm thinking about it and now. I'm worried about it and. >> she's missing. >> Like was there real danger or am I" He.

was kind of second-guessing himself. >> Which like is valid, of course. >> Yeah, and he was like "And maybe like. she had seen me waving to her, but like. he didn't she didn't want to alert the. driver to put her in more danger if she. was in danger." Like maybe she was. staring at me, but she couldn't wave, which made him even more upset and he. was like and it just ran through his. head as he was frantically searching for. her in the days after she went missing. >> This is heartbreaking. >> But as the weeks passed without a sign. of her, he just. couldn't do it anymore. Yeah. No one was.

going to help him. >> Which is so shitty. I can't I just can't. believe that because he wasn't her like. official husband. >> that he couldn't. >> couldn't file a report. >> And he said no matter how much time. passed, he never believed that Gail just. simply left him. >> No. >> Like cuz there were people that would. tell him that like maybe she just left. you and he was like no, she didn't. >> Also like can we look into it. >> Yeah, and then determine once we have. some evidence? >> Now after the task force identified. Gail's remains from the medical records, they immediately began searching the. police logs for any arrests or.

references to Gail Matthews, which is. when they came across Kurt's call to. 911. Fortunately for them, it wasn't hard to. track Kurt down. In September 1983, he. was unfortunately in a Texas jail on a. drug charge. The task force had. transferred him to. had him transferred to Seattle, where he. was interviewed by police. >> [clears throat]. >> And he was actually interviewed by the. department psychologist, Dr. John. Burbridge. Kurt racked his brain for. anything that could be useful for the.

investigators and even agreed to be. hypnotized. >> Wow. >> Unfortunately, all he could remember was. like the basic information about the. driver and the fact that the truck was. definitely not new. The one thing he was able to say was it. looked as though it had recently been. primed for paint. >> Okay. >> So that's interesting. >> that's helpful. >> Just one month after the discovery of. Gail Matthews' body, more skeletonized. remains were discovered in the city. This time in the woods off Black Diamond. Road. Using their usual method of, you.

know, going through the police reports, the missing persons reports with medical. records and the medical examiner's. reports, the task force was able to. identify this new victim as 19-year-old. Yvonne Antosh. >> 19? >> 19. The missing persons report had been. made by Ann Tosh's friend and motel. roommate. And that's who she had come to Seattle. with from Vancouver, British Columbia, actually. >> Oh, okay. >> Investigators showed Yvonne's photo to. the other women working the strip, and a.

few people did recognize her. And one. said they remembered seeing her around. May 30th, but no one had seen her since. Based on that report and the autopsy. results, Yvonne's time of death was. estimated to be around that date. Now, the detectives on the task force. had barely started digging into Yvonne's. background when less than 2 weeks later. another body was discovered out by the. airport. >> Oh, man. >> Another young couple picking apples. >> For that to happen twice. >> Right. Is wild.

>> in a vacant lot by the airport, they. made another terrible discovery. The woman tripped and fell onto her. stomach into a pile of leaves, and her. face was just inches from what she said. looked like a human leg bone. >> Stop. >> Just fell right into it. >> That is so [ __ ] up. >> This woman jumps to her feet, and they. look closer at what was, in fact, a leg. bone attached to a pelvis. >> Can you imagine? >> Nope. >> Falling inches from. >> Yeah. >> somebody's body like. >> it attached to a pelvis.

>> Oh, my. >> A few feet away they could see the top. half of a human skull sticking out of. the dirt. >> Oh, my god. >> Now, because the lot belonged to the. airport, the report of human remains was. called into the port authority, not the. Seattle police or the Green River task. force. >> Hello. >> Just like the way the jurisdiction. works. The authorities sealed the area. and decided to wait until the next. morning to begin the investigation when. the light would be better. >> Yeah. >> So, the next day when the sun came up, this is wild to me. The sun came up, the. port police arrived at the scene with a.

troop of local boy scouts. >> Sorry, what? >> Who they often relied on to help them in. cases where a large law enforcement. presence was necessary. >> Hey, but like, um, didn't you know that. a body was reported? Yeah, that like. shocked me. I don't know a lot about the. Boy Scouts, so I'm not going to sit here. and say that I do. Here's the thing. >> just shocking to me to think about. >> Boy. >> Yeah. >> They're not the man scouts. >> [laughter]. >> They're the boy scouts. So, I'm. >> They're not the man scouts. >> I'm here to put money on the fact that I.

don't think they were ready to see what. they saw. >> No. No, I didn't know that was part of the. Boy Scouts. I didn't know that crime. scene investigation was part of the. whole. >> crime fighting. >> if it is now. I would I would like to. hope no. >> Again, I have no idea. >> Wow, that is also like, hey, when you need more police presence, why. don't you call other police people? >> That's crazy. >> That's a crazy idea for you. You guys. could like. >> [laughter]. >> You guys could like work together. >> Like go instead of bringing the boys in. >> That's nuts. Instead of bringing literal.

children in. >> Please bring the man scouts in, aka the. police. >> The man scouts, the feds. >> Uh, well, officers from the port police. did much of the official work. Apparently, the teenage Boy Scouts. spread out across the lot. They were. told to look for bones, clothing, anything else that might have belonged. to the newly unearthed victim. >> And we wonder why men need therapy. >> Yeah. >> A lot. >> Wow. >> A lot to take. >> Wow. >> Um, as the scouts scoured the lot, one. of the teenagers, one of the Boy Scouts, stumbled upon a.

second skeleton. >> A whole other one? >> Yep, lying about 50 yards away from the. first. >> god. >> Unlike the first body, which had been. buried in a very shallow grave, the. second skeleton was only slightly. obscured by some thick bushes. Um, the body was covered with trash and. debris. >> Oh, that's awful. >> It was like the killer had deliberately. taken his time burying the first victim, but then tossed the second woman in the. bushes. >> Almost like he like wanted the body to. be found. >> Yeah, I'm not I'm not sure why, but a.

few days later, the medical examiner. used dental records to identify the. first set of bones. uh. >> [clears throat]. >> those of 20-year-old factory worker, uh Constance Constance Nacon, one of the. names on their list of women recently. reported missing. >> Wow. >> Constance was last seen on June 8th, uh leaving the factory where she worked. And just before she left, she called her. boyfriend to let him know she was on her. way to see him and expected herself to. be there in about 20 minutes. When Constance didn't show up, so it was.

in that small 20-minute span of time. >> Yeah. >> Uh when she didn't show up that night, he became concerned, and the following. day he reported her missing. At the time she went missing, she was. living out of her car, a 15-year-old. Chevy Camaro that investigators found. parked in the lot of the Red Lion Motel. And it was definitely like cluttered. with all her belongings, and but it was. covered in dust, like it had been. undisturbed for several days. >> really chilling. >> The second set of remains belonged to.

Kelly Ware, yet another name on the task. force list of missing women. Kelly had. been last seen, um on or around July. 18th, who was seen near a bus stop in. the area of Seattle known among police. as a very heavily trafficked area by. drug dealers. >> Okay. >> Her killer had taken the time to bury. her remains out by the airport and. placed a ring of stones around [snorts]. the burial site. >> Oh? >> Yeah. Like many of the other victims, the. advanced state of decomp made initially.

just identifying her, but identifying. the cause of death as well nearly. impossible. >> Yeah. >> In fact, the only evidence of note was. that when the remains were finally. uncovered, one of the technicians found. a triangular-shaped stone in the region. of the pelvis. It was kind of impossible to know. whether it had simply fallen into the. grave when she was buried or whether it. had been put there deliberately, but. like. that had happened before. >> going to say. >> immediately went to the discovery of. Marcia Fay Chapman, where the killer had.

literally sexually violated her with. rocks. >> Yeah. >> So, this wasn't completely out of the. realm of possibility that that was on. purpose. >> But, they just couldn't tell because the. remains were skeletal. >> They were. decomposed so badly that there was just. no way. >> That's really [ __ ] up. >> Now, the discovery of Kelly Ware's. remains brought the death toll to 13. >> Already at 13. >> Already. So, the discovery of Kelly Ware's. remains brought the death toll to 13. Already. [clears throat]. >> Yeah, that's crazy. >> And there were still countless names on.

the list of missing women the task force. had compiled from the Seattle Police. Department's reports. Now, at first, several investigators had. been publicly pretty skeptical that all. the victims had been killed by one. person because again, this is still new. >> Yeah. >> This is a thing. >> Like the idea of a serial killer. >> But, by the fall of 1983, it was. beginning to become nearly impossible to. ignore the similarities here. >> Not only the similarities, but also just. the fact that like this was a thing that. people do, you know? >> thing. Now, although they didn't have any.

particular suspects on the radar, the. task force members had a theory about. what could potentially be motivating the. killer. >> Okay. >> King County Police Captain Michael Nault. said, "There's a strong possibility. we're we're dealing with a serial. murderer. There's nothing to compare. with in other US cities, which is crazy. Female And this is a quote, "Female. prostitutes being killed around major. airports.". So, they're literally saying, >> Yeah, we think this is a serial killer, but we don't have anything like this to.

compare it to. >> Female sex workers being killed. >> Like you don't? >> Around like airports. >> Like what? >> Because it wasn't like a huge thing. >> That's actually crazy. >> wild to think of. >> I know, because now we just live in a. world where. >> Yeah, where it's like we have lots of. things to compare this to, unfortunately. >> They believed the killer was, quote, "psychologically disturbed and bent. against prostitutes.". >> I mean, I would say so. >> That's Um and what they thought was they. thought they were killing them. uh as for their perceived moral.

transgressions essentially. Like they. were trying to be like a hero and like. rid the streets. >> Oh, nice. >> The theory was helpful in hunting the. killer, but Nolte also acknowledged that. without any witnesses or crime scenes, investigators were struggling to make. any progress really. Like. >> Yeah. >> Come up with this theory and it makes. sense, sure, but like where is it really. getting us? >> Like can we get some profiling done at. Quantico? Well, let's let's go. >> Okay. >> Now, in most cases, when a killer is on.

the loose in a particular area, the. public would demand more of law. enforcement um, you know, more law. enforcement like presence to come out. and actually be present. Um, and more. that than getting like psychological. theories, you know what I mean? Like. they don't a lot of times the public. doesn't want to hear that. They want to. hear that you're physically doing. something about it. >> than sorry. >> Yeah, not theories. But one of the major. tragedies of the Green River case and. many others like it was that the. victims, like we've said before, were. among the most marginalized people in.

society, most often in to be ignored. >> Mhm. >> If they were ever seen at all. >> Mhm. >> Even when they were alive. >> Right. >> Which is so sad. >> It's really, really sad. >> In fact, if anything, Nolte's statements. about the killer's supposed moral. mission to rid the city of sex workers. only strengthened the public's sense of. safety, like false safety, >> Yeah, cuz it wasn't. >> sex workers. >> No, and that's and it's like they they. would think, "Okay, well, I'll never end. up like a victim because I'm not in that. line of work.". >> Right. >> Which is like not No, like he's just.

happening to. cuz that's like making it easier for him. because he's able to get them into a. car. >> Right. >> You you could be potentially just. walking down the street. You don't know. if this guy was just going to start. reaching and grabbing people. >> Well, also it had happened. He's offered. people who weren't sex workers, who were. just, you know, like a server or. something. >> Oh, exactly, a ride to work. So, it. that's the kind of thing that bothers me. so much in cases like this cuz it's like. don't give people a sense of safety. >> It's like, no, make people be vigilant.

here. >> Also, like we don't have to be so like. morally. >> No. >> like with our noses in the air, you. know? >> Especially especially in the '80s and. stuff and like the '70s, it's like. people are taking rides from people all. the [ __ ] time back then. It's not. just sex workers getting in cars. >> No. >> And it's like, so everyone's a little. bit on the radar here. >> Right. >> Now, um the editor of the News Tribune uh. said, "It's puzzling why there is so. little public outcry over what has. become known as the Green River.

slayings. The public seems to have. assumed a detached view of these brutal. slayings. That is in sharp contrast to. the Ted Bundy killings, {quote} of the. 1970s, when young women, many of them. students, were disappearing at regular. intervals from Seattle and nearby. points." So, they're at least pointing. out like. weird that we're not seeming to give too. much of a [ __ ] with this. >> It's like, hey, nobody should be. considered less dead. >> They're a human with families. >> And we like we've said this before.

>> wanting to be a sex worker. They they. are doing what they have to do to. survive or to take care of people that. depend on them. >> And I like it always gets called like a. high-risk job. It's like, okay, there's. other high-risk jobs that people do that. we wouldn't consider them less dead. >> Well, that's the thing, we don't. consider it their fault when something. happens. Police officers have a. high-risk job. Do we consider it their. fault when they get killed in the line. of duty? >> No. >> No. Cuz it's not they're humans. >> Right, exactly. >> like like you can't just say one is more.

more valuable than the other. >> Well, and it's like, can we maybe just. look at these victims as um people whose. lives were taken away? Like, can we. really just like boil it down to the. tragedy that it is? >> And that's what I mean also just to. clarify, when I say like one is more. valuable than the other, I mean the. human. I don't I don't mean their line. of work. I mean, like. the human being to place one one you. know, value on one and a lesser value on. the other just because of what they do. for work is insane. >> Yeah. It's just yucky. >> It is yucky. >> all just be chill with each other? Like.

everybody just be cool, man. And. nobody's being cool. >> People going to people, man. >> People are going to people. Now, it was not like the detectives had. nothing to work with here. It was really that like it seemed like. things changed constantly. And any. witness statements that they could get. never seemed to match up. >> Okay. >> Like there was just a lot of chaos here. >> Well, I mean, he was. here, there, and everywhere. So, that. makes sense. >> Yeah. And all along there were suspects. every now and then. Like Melvin Foster. had been ruled out. We talked about him.

But in late 1983, the task force trained. their eye on a new suspect, a guy named. Charles Clinton Clark. Several of the women working the strip. had described described a man in his 30s. driving a blue and white pickup truck. similar to the one described by Gail. Matthews' uh boyfriend, Kurt. He was the. one who said that he saw her in the car. >> Yep. >> Clark uh Clark was a meat cutter at a. local butchery. And he had a license for two handguns. >> Okay. >> He'd also been identified by several of. the women on the strip as having been.

violent to them. At the very la- at the very least, they. were able to arrest Clark on sexual. assault charges against one of the sex. workers on the strip, which like good. >> Yeah. Get him out of the streets. >> Get his ass off the street, which. brought them time to continue. investigating him as a possible suspect. for the Green River case. >> Mhm. >> While the task force and the FBI pursued. Clark as their suspect, the killer. continued his work. As detectives were booking Clark at the. Seattle Police Department, 18-year-old. Mary Bridget Meehan had just left the.

room she shared with her boyfriend, Ray, at the Western Six Motel near the strip. At the time, Mary was 8 months pregnant. >> Oh my. >> And certainly at this point was not uh. was not performing sex work. >> Mhm. >> But she had a long history of running. away from home and was believed to have. occasionally worked the strip to make. money. >> Okay. >> According to Ray, Mary had said she was. going to walk down to the movie theater, which was only about 2 miles away. When night fell and she still hadn't. come back from the movie theater, Ray.

started to get worried and he went out. to see if he could find her. He walked. the strip for hours. He was asking all. the other women if they had seen Mary, but no one had seen her. When his. efforts came up empty, he went back home. and called the police and was told he. would need to wait a full 24 hours. before reporting someone missing. >> Um hi, she's 8 months pregnant. Can we. maybe make a [ __ ] special case here? >> Seriously. And Ray cuz I'm like she's. like high risk right now. Like can we. please go look? >> Ray waited until the following evening.

and she still had not returned. So he. called the police a second time and. finally made a report. This time the. officer took the report and filed it. with the other incoming communications. from the night and it would be several. days before the report of this missing. pregnant teenager would be assigned to a. detective. >> That's crazy. >> And was finally assigned a detective. Earl Tripp. Both Mary and her brother Tim uh were. and we're talking about the victim now. were adopted by a couple with two other. children in Bellevue, Washington when. they were young.

And they were raised just 20 miles from. where she would eventually disappear. Uh but like unlike so many of the other. victims, Mary's childhood had been. mostly a good one. Uh her brother Dennis. recalled she would bring home stray cats. all the time and hide them in her room. We'd find them and my mom would say, "You can't keep them. See how everyone's. sneezing?" It didn't really work. She. went out and brought more cats home. >> [laughter]. >> Things changed for Mary though when she. reached her early teens and there was. like tension that came up from angsty. teen.

>> Yeah. >> stuff. Mary and her brother had always. kind of been the more rebellious ones. than the other children in the house. >> Mhm. >> But as teenagers, that rebellion became. a form of pushing back on their parents'. authority, which led to inevitable. conflict. >> Of course. >> In time, Mary started skipping school. She was spending time with older boys. She was 15 when she got her first. boyfriend, um who was the son of a prominent local. businessman. >> Mhm. >> According to her parents, uh Mary was. {quote} entranced with him, and despite. their disapproval, he became her entire.

world. >> I mean, when you're 15 and your first. boyfriend, yeah. >> Mhm. And soon her grades were. plummeting, and she was staying out till. all hours in the morning. >> Oh, no. >> Um that's must be so horrific cuz you're. so helpless. >> Yeah, as a parent. >> For a while, the Means tried the usual. routine, punishments, rewards, anything. to get their daughter under control, but. eventually they had to accept that. nothing they were doing was working. Hoping some tough love might be the. thing that gets her back on track, they.

gave her an ultimatum. Either follow the. rules of the house or you find another. place to live. >> Mhm. >> It's fair to say the Means genuinely. thought they were doing the right thing. here. They didn't know what else to do. They kind of run out of any other thing. to do. And she was older at this point. >> Yeah, and they think she was like 16, so. they were They're I know. >> And I think they were doing it like. >> Yeah, like you're you're not going to. leave. >> something here. Like you're really not. going to leave. And they thought this. ultimatum was going to work. This was. going to be the thing [laughter] to. scare her into being like, "Okay.". >> Yeah. >> But when Mary came home one night and.

found herself locked out of the house, she took off and moved out in with her. boyfriend. >> Oh, man. >> Now for a time, Mary's boyfriend was. happy to have her there, but not long. not long after she moved in, she became. pregnant. >> Okay. >> Something neither of them had planned. on. >> Yeah. >> And this was not long after her 16th. birthday. Um so they're in. pretty difficult situation now. >> Yeah, of course. >> Now the boyfriend wanted her to have an. abortion. >> Okay. >> But Mary was devoutly Catholic and felt. very strongly that she did not want to.

do that, and she refused, which is her. right, cuz it's her [ __ ] body. >> Yep, her choice. >> Frustrated with Mary's decision, her. boyfriend kicked her out of the. apartment that they moved into, and she. spent this next several months sleeping. on friends' couches until the mother of. one of Mary's friends agreed to let her. move in. >> That is so sad. >> Yeah. In the 2 years that followed, Mary's. life more or less returned to normal, but her relationship with her parents. never really healed from all of this. They loved each other. They tried to get.

it back on track, but her it was a. complex situation at this point. And. they repeatedly had told her in that. time if she was willing to follow the. rules of the house, they would happily. have her live there, but I think she was. According to friends, she was just not. ready to do that. >> Okay. >> And I think it was just kind of like a. standoff kind of thing, you know what I. mean? Like. >> Yeah. >> No one was willing to move. And like. she's becoming a parent. >> So it's like she's still young. She had. plenty of time if life had continued if. this [ __ ] hadn't come into her life,

Gary Ridgway, that this could have all turned around, and she could have ended up back with. her parents, I think. I don't This was. not a relationship that was completely. tarnished. You know what I mean? Like she just. didn't get the time. >> I feel like it's so strange to just like. on a on a different um note, like. changing his victim profile to kill a. pregnant woman. >> Yeah. >> Like that that's a deviation. >> really have a victim profile though, that's the thing. Like he had a line of. work that he went after. He didn't.

really have These women were black, they. were white, they were young, they were. older, they were mothers, they were. single, they were married, like. It It was They were just women. >> only thing they had in common was the. opportunity to grab them. >> Okay. >> Or have them come in the car. >> I just I'm just like. >> That's really it. >> And that's crazy because that doesn't. happen that often. >> He was They When you look at the the. pictures especially of all of his. victims, he did not have a. a singular, you know, victim type.

>> That's interesting. >> Yeah. >> But this one is like uh just so sad and. heartbreaking. >> Now, by the time she turned 18, Mary was. definitely like struggling. She was. struggling with some substance stuff, and she was asked to move out of her. friend's house. By then, she had already. started spending a lot of time on the. streets and was making friends with. other young women. who were living and working there as. well. Her friend Dave said she had a fearless. nihilistic quality that I really admired. at the time. Now I see that we were both. just scared of life, and it wasn't going.

very well for us. We were accepting. failure as a given and then going from. there. >> Aw. >> Now, Dave had been Mary's closest friend. in the years after she left her parents'. house, and he was so devoted. Like he's. such a devoted friend. But once Mary started to fall really far. into life on the streets, things started. to change a little bit between them. Still a teenager, Dave's life was filled. with, you know, kind of like the type of suburban teen. angst that a lot of people experience in. their adolescence. It wasn't like super.

serious stuff. >> Yeah. >> But Mary's troubles were like very dire, and. much more adult, like very different. from what he was dealing with. And one. day Mary told Dave that a man had. approached her at the Seattle Center and. offered her money for sex. At first, Mary agreed and went with the. man. She hadn't done this before. >> Okay. >> But eventually, she decided she couldn't. go through it and told him that. Fortunately, this man was understanding. and sympathetic to her situation. >> He even bought her some food and sat. with her while she told him about her.

family problems. >> Wow, what are the odds? Unfortunately, >> that that's the situation that happened. there. >> is that too, that that's like whoa, that. was the outcome. >> Now, Dave laughed the situation off, kind of making a small joke about how. she should have asked him for more. money. Like, you know, like just making. a joke. But in retrospect, he said that. he could see that her this part of her. story was like kind of a red flag, a. sign that she was going down a much more. dangerous path. >> Yeah. >> Now, a few months later, Dave started. dating a young woman from Bellevue, and.

the new relationship dramatically. changed the dynamic between Ian and. Mary. >> Yeah, of course. >> A short time later, they drifted apart. and he never saw her again. >> Oh, that's sad. >> After that, not because of it, Mary kind. of hit rock bottom, and at one point she. did move back in with her parents. >> Oh. >> Uh she finally agreed to abide by their. rules, but and this was when she was 18, so she had like I said, like she it was. not completely demolished. It was like. there was time. And at this. >> point she So, she had already had a. child?

>> Yeah. But, and I don't know what happened like. that. >> yeah, yeah. >> Um. but when she moved in, she started. dating Ray, who we talked about in the. beginning. Ray was the one who reported. her missing. Um and she found out she. was pregnant again. So, the old tensions. flared up between Mary and her parents. And she fell back into the old routine. of staying out all night, just it just. started going in that path again. >> All of this is what made Mary both like.

and not like the other missing women on. the list. On the one hand, she had a. support system that she knew she could. fall back on. >> Right. >> during desperate times. >> Uh-huh. >> And her love for and her connection to. her family made it unlikely that she. would run away without telling anyone. >> Yeah. >> Cuz no matter how bad things got, she. was never going to abandon them. And. they were never going to abandon her. >> for the most part. >> Yeah. On the other hand, still just a. teenager, she had a stubborn, rebellious. streak that caused her to act. impulsively. >> Yep. >> and take a little bit of an unnecessary.

risk in order to prove her independence. and to kind of just do her own thing. >> Yeah. >> So, the missing person's report got. added to the Green River Task Force list. of missing women and was assigned to. Detective Jerry Alexander for follow-up. Now, Alexander started by interviewing. Ray, who was obviously the last person. to see Mary and the person who reported. her missing. Now, despite his very obvious love for. Mary, Ray ultimately proved to be of. kind of like little use to. investigators. According According to. one of the investigators, {quote} "The.

detectives doubted many of his answers.". >> Oh. >> It wasn't so much that they thought he. was lying, he just didn't seem to know. anything. >> Okay. >> He said that she'd gone to the movies, but when they asked whether Mary might. have gone to make money on the street, he said, "I don't know.". >> Oh. >> Like I think he just was like, "Ah, like. I don't know what to say.". Mary's other friends proved to be like a. little more helpful than that, at least. when it came to how Mary was living at. the time she disappeared and whether or. not she was in fact working as a sex. worker. Regardless of her pregnant state, the.

consensus seemed to be that Mary. was not resorting to that. >> Okay. >> Even not pregnant. >> Okay. >> Mary's friends and family spent months. looking for her, but there was never any. sign of where she disappeared to. But by the end of 1982, Ray had to move. out of the motel. And for a while, he. kept in touch with her parents hoping. that she might resurface, but in time. those calls stopped, too. And Mary. stayed on the task force missing list. until a body was found. Um but in the.

beginning, she wouldn't be counted among. the Green River Killer's victims. >> Really? >> Now, the day that she would be found. finally came on November 14th, 1983. Uh as technicians continued searching. the vacant lot where the bodies of. Constance Naon and Kelly Ware were. discovered a few weeks earlier. Buried about 100 yd away from where. Constance's body was unearthed, a third. body was discovered. But it appeared that this third victim. had been dead significantly longer than. the other two.

During the autopsy, the pathologist. noted that the internal organs appeared. to all be intact, but were jelled. They. were not They were just kind of one. mass, but they were all there. >> Oh, I didn't know that happened. >> Yeah, the autopsy also included one very. unusual note. Quote, in addition in the right lower. quadrant of the abdomen, there were. multiple fetal bone fragments. >> Oh, that's awful. >> This appears to con- constitute a. complete fetal skeleton. >> Yeah. >> So, that's when they found out that this. was a pregnant woman. >> That's so [ __ ]. >> The presence of the fetal bones.

confirmed that Seattle law enforcement. were indeed dealing with a monster. unlike anything they had seen before. Because this was not. This was a. a full fetal skeleton. >> Yeah. >> She was 8 months pregnant. >> Yeah, you're like past viability. >> Now, later that afternoon, the medical. examiner matched the teeth in the jaw to. the dental records of Mary Bridget. Meehan. He could not be precise about the time. or cause of death, but he estimated she. had likely died not long after she. disappeared on September 15th, 1982.

Mary Meehan was the last of three. victims discovered in the Port Authority. lot, but these discoveries didn't really. move the case forward that much, unfortunately. Um. Reichert recalled later, "We were. finding bones every week." By late 1983, the task force had already been. disbanded once in 1982 after their work. failed to make any progress toward. identifying a suspect, and a months-long. break in the new victims gave them the. false impression that the killer had.

moved on. >> Oh, man. >> Following the election of a new sheriff. in 1983, the task force was reassembled. once the bodies started piling up again. One of the investigators said, "We had. over 10,000 pieces of evidence and over. 40,000 tip sheets.". >> Wow. >> "We did it by Rolodex, files of paper. with knobs on the end of a spindle to. organize names to find.". >> That's crazy. >> Now, that was from 2024 when they talked. about it, so he had to explain to. everybody what a Rolodex was, which I. thought was at least a little brief. moment of levity. >> Yeah. >> Remember when we went to the Celtics.

game and they had a Rolodex and like the. players had to like identify what it. was? >> it was. >> Cuz they're all like in their early 20s. or most of them. I remember. >> we had a Rolodex. >> Oh, I remember that, right by the phone. >> Yeah. >> Now, because there were few witnesses. and even fewer leads, progress was slow, and many of the detectives on the task. force spent their days fielding calls. about missing girls and women, or. talking to family members about their. missing loved ones. In 1983, the task. force main suspect we talked about. before, Charles Clark, would eventually.

be ruled out. >> Mhm. >> But he wasn't he he just sucked. >> "You're just a douche.". >> They said, "You're just an asshole." But. he wasn't the only suspect on the team's. radar. On May 3rd, just days before Carolyn. Christiansen's remains were discovered. in that really bizarre scene in the. forest. >> With like the sausage and everything, yeah. >> Bobby Woods called police in Des Moines. to report his girlfriend, 18-year-old. Marie Malvar, was missing. Not wanting to implicate himself in the. crime, he was kind of vague about the. details of her disappearance, but this. just led detectives on the case assigned.

to the case to believe that he probably. did have something to do with Marie's. disap-. >> Yeah, you can't be too vague. >> Eventually, Bobby did tell detectives. the whole story, and he was ruled out as. a suspect, but someone else took his. place. Now, according to Woods, he and Marie. had gone down to Pacific Highway South. to make some money. For several months, the couple had. relied on a simple system in order to. make money and keep Marie safe. Now, you'll see why he was a little vague. >> Yeah, I'm starting to. >> They would work the streets, and when. Marie found a client and got into the.

man's car, Bobby would follow behind the. car in his car and wait nearby to make. sure the transaction went smoothly. >> Wow. >> On the night of April 30th, 1983, they. went down to the strip, and Marie was. flagged down by a man in a blue and. white truck. >> Ah, I've heard that before. >> Sitting at the same intersection where. Kurt had last seen Gail Matthews just 8. days earlier. >> No. >> Same hunting grounds. Marie opened the passenger's door and. got in, and Bobby pulled onto the street. as the truck pulled away, keeping a. distance to not seem suspicious.

>> Uh-huh. >> Bobby said he followed the truck um at a. distance for several miles as they drove. on the highway and at times he pulled up. to check he like pulled up next to them. to check on Marie. He would like look. in. At one point he said it looked as. though she was upset. >> Oh. >> And he said it looked to quote as though. Marie and the man were arguing about. something. >> Okay. >> Eventually the truck pulled off the. highway and drove into the lot of a. motel. Bobby followed and parked his car across. the street where he could see them.

The truck idled in the parking lot, then. the driver pulled out of the lot and got. back on the highway and Bobby followed. behind. >> That's weird. >> Not long after he got on the highway, Bobby started to feel like something was. very wrong. >> Yeah. >> The driver was now going much faster. than he had been before as though he. suspected he was being followed. >> Right. >> Bobby did his best to keep up and the. two vehicles raced down the highway at. high speeds. Without signaling, the. truck took a last minute turn off an. exit ramp dumping them back into. downtown Seattle. But Bobby followed.

>> I thought you were going to say he lost. him here. >> After turning off the highway, Bobby. spotted an upcoming red light and. slammed on his brakes to stop, but the. driver of the truck went through the red. light and drove up a steep hill on South. 216th Street. Unable to get through the. light or pick up enough momentum, Bobby. quickly lost sight of the truck and it. was the last time he'd ever see Marie. >> That is the most [ __ ] up. scenario. >> To know that he is behind her and she. knows he's behind her trying to keep up.

with them and she can't get to him and. he can't get to her. >> Yeah. >> And this guy's just running away from. him as fast as he can. >> Yeah. >> Like. the helplessness that both of them. probably felt in that moment is. something I can't even comprehend. >> And like you have to just wonder like. how many times has the system worked for. them before? Obviously they felt. confident enough in it to continue. >> And it's like. did he figure out that he was being. followed and then. he did this and like on purpose, you. know what I mean? Like he did this to.

punish her. >> kind of thing? Or was it Well, was he. just going to do it anyway though? >> they were going to a motel. So, I'm like. was he planning what he actually did and. like got pissed and did this? >> Yeah, or or did he do Was that Had Did. he always go to the motel. >> was that always the the thing? Like you. have no idea. Like why did he pull away. and start driving so fast? Like. >> Or maybe did he pull off in the motel. when he realized he was being followed. >> to see if that that person who was. following. >> Right. And then he gets pissed and. drives away.

>> Now, the next day Bobby went to Marie's. father, Joe, and told him what happened. >> Oh, god. >> never liked Bobby Woods that much and. blamed him for Marie's recent problems. and now for her disappearance. Joe demanded that Bobby get in his truck. with him and the two men, along with. Marie's brother, James, spent the rest. of the day driving around the area. surrounding the strip and the area where. Bobby had lost the truck the night. before. >> That is such a bleak scenario. >> They're just looking for any sign of. Marie or the truck she'd been in when. she disappeared. As they drove along South 216th Street,

Bobby spotted a street sign at the. corner of a small side street that he. said he'd been unable to see in the dark. the night before. The street led down to a small. cul-de-sac with just a handful of. houses. As they got to the end, they spotted the truck. >> Shut the [ __ ] up. >> with the primer spot on the side. >> Stop. >> They sat across the street from the. house and watched, but there didn't. appear to be any sign of Marie, just two. men talking inside. >> Okay. >> After a while, Joe told Bobby, which.

like I kind of love Joe for this. He's. like, "You go down the street and you. ask one of those neighbors if we can use. one of their phones to call the police.". >> Like get your ass out there. >> "You get out of this car and go do. this." And he did. Now, a short time later, Des Moines. police officer Bob Fox arrived and Joe. told the officer what they knew. >> I know that this is like a bad time, but. what a savage name. I know, Bob Fox. It's a hot name. >> Like the. Officer Fox. >> Moving on now, sorry. >> Yeah. Now, Fox went to the door and. knocked, and a few seconds later, a man. in his 30s appeared at the door.

Joe, Bobby, and James watched as the. officer spoke to the man in the house. The officer occasionally just nodding. About a minute later, the door closed. And Officer Fox returned, and he said, "He says there's no woman in there.". >> He says there's a court Who the [ __ ] in. their right mind is going to say if. there's a woman in there? >> Well, then don't worry. He also said, "There hasn't been a woman in here.". >> Okay, I believe you. >> And like, you don't really mean. >> That's not a hot name. I take it back.

>> I was going to say that you will want to. take it back. He. literally said, "He says there's no woman in there.". >> That's like knocking on Ariel Castro's. door and being like, "Hey, are there. three women locked inside here?". >> No. >> Okay, have a good one. >> Which also, it's like, I understand that. like. you need like. >> Things need to be followed. >> here, like protocol. I'm like, really? >> Like. >> Like, how What? What about like. >> He says there's no woman in there, but. like, we're going to watch him. >> But we're going to figure this out. Like, we're going to especially since. we've had no other [ __ ] leads.

>> Yeah, we might as well. So, Bob Fox had heard about the Green River. killings, obviously. But he because he. worked in a different jurisdiction, he. didn't have any direct involvement, and. only knew what he'd read in the papers. Like, he wasn't getting information that. everybody else wasn't getting. >> But like, can you not call and be like, "Hey, is there a task force? Can one of. those guys sit outside this house?". >> Well, then he said, you know, yeah, I. heard about the Green River killings. I. know it's happening. But he said, "The. man I spoke to in the house, Gary. Ridgway, >> the Green River killer?".

>> know if you know, but that's the Green. River killer. >> Yeah. >> He said he didn't seem like the serial. killer type. I'm sorry, have you seen. Gary Ridgway? Has anyone seen Gary. Ridgway? >> Yes. >> That man. is the prototype of what a serial killer. looks like in everybody's like immediate. mind. >> I would cross the street if he was. walking near me. >> And not only that, but like. Aiden just pulled up a picture. You got like Yeah. >> You see that [ __ ] enter the door, I'd. be like, "Yeah.

He probably did it.". >> Yeah, he's so disgusting. He like. reminds me of somebody. Um. Also, sorry, just his picture grossed me. out so much that I lost my train of. thought. But also, like there are serial. killers that don't look like what you. would imagine a serial killer looks. like. >> Yeah. Everybody like I don't personally. think so, but everybody thought Ted. Bundy was hot. The girls were writing. him in prison trying to marry him. >> Yeah. >> And he killed a bunch of [ __ ] women. >> Exactly. >> already captured him. So like hello. >> maybe let's not just go off of like he. doesn't look like one according to me.

>> Okay. >> Yeah. So that pisses me off. >> made a few notes and filed the report. and then moved on with his day. Bob Fox, you silly goose. >> To Joe Malvar, the experience confirmed. his suspicions. That Bobby Woods was a liar and he'd. never seen a man in a truck. >> But why would he make that up? >> I don't know what that dynamic was in. that family, so I'm just like, you know. what? >> Well, I Okay, so sorry, that's the. father. So he He's thinking Bobby's. lying, something else happened and he's. not telling us the truth. >> Well, he's probably thinking like Bobby.

has something to do with that. >> was probably covering up for something. that made Marie leave. That was Which I know that was also. probably wishful thinking on his part. that like something didn't happen to. Marie. Marie left and she's going to. come back. He just doesn't want to be. >> Oh, that's so. >> sad for everyone involved. >> matter what, Marie was missing. So her. name went on the list of missing women. and her friends and family spent the. next several months looking for any sign. of where she'd gone. >> It's awful. >> Um Woods did tell a reporter many years. later, "Every night, every single night.

we go out, no sleep.". >> Oh. >> Now, on the night of April 17th, just a. few weeks before Marie Malvar went. missing, 16-year-olds. >> 16. >> 16-year-old Kimi Kai. Pitso was walking in downtown Seattle. with who was described as her. boyfriend/pimp. Okay. Uh when she caught the eye of a. man sitting in a truck at the corner of. 4th and Blanchard. The man motioned for. Kimi to come over to the truck.

and the man with her watched as she. spoke to this man then got into the. passenger side of the car. >> Pedophiles everywhere. >> Yeah. The last thing Kimi's. boyfriend/pimp noticed as the truck. pulled away was that. it had a large primer spot on the. driver's side door. Kimi's story was unfortunately very. similar to that of some of the other. victims. As a child, she was. bright-eyed, outgoing, like adorable, sweet, loved unicorns. >> She also still was a child.

>> Yeah. As like a young child, I should. say. Um her mother Joyce recalled Kimi was. very adventurous. She wanted to see how. life worked and never took anyone's word. for anything. >> Aw. >> When she reached adolescence, she. developed a defiant streak and started. rebelling against her parents and the. rules they established. By her. mid-teens, she had fallen desperately in. love with a boy. >> Mhm. >> It always starts with. >> It's so scary. >> and devoted all of her time to him and. soon she was skipping school, ignoring. her curfew, and generally defying her.

parents. In February 1983, Kimi left home and. moved in with her boyfriend. When money. was tight, he suggested Love this. He. suggested she try sex work. >> How about you get a [ __ ] job, loser? >> Now at first, they decided to move to. Portland where they heard girls could. make better money. But when that proved. not to be the case, they came back to. Seattle and a few weeks later, Kimi was. gone. A few days passed before her boyfriend. called the police to report her missing. >> What a stand-up guy.

>> Yeah. Unfortunately and shockingly, he had. very little in the ways of details about. what he saw in the truck, like what man. he saw or what he looked like. He was. white, looked to be in his 30s. He was. driving a blue green pickup truck with a. primer spot on the door. And he said. this time that it was hauling a little. camper. >> Okay. >> Reviewing the missing list, certain. things began to stand out to detectives. on the task force. >> spot? >> Most importantly, there were at least a. few witness statements that mentioned. the truck with the primer spot on the.

door. But until they found a match, that. lead was just that. >> Yeah. >> Another thing that stood out among the. cases were certain dates. Kimi Kai. Pitsou had disappeared on April 17th, 1983, and so had another young sex. worker, 17-year-old Sandra Gabbert, just. 3 days before that, on April 14th. 19-year-old Andrea Childers had. disappeared from the same area. Then just a few weeks later, Marie. Malvar disappeared from the strip. Of. course, not every name on the missing. list would turn out to be a victim of.

the Green River Killer, but if even half. of the missing were victims, it painted. a portrait of a man that was murdering. women at a truly alarming rate at this. point. Yeah. He had been the whole time, but at this point you're like, >> How was he continuing with this like. >> Yeah. >> speed? Now, 5 days before Christmas, 1983, the task force members learned. what became of Kimi. >> Oh. >> On the afternoon of December 20th, someone called police to report that. they had been walking through Mountain. View Cemetery, about 20 miles from the.

airport. That's when they came upon a human skull. laying on the ground. Detective Frank Adamson said, "We. thought the killer was playing with us.". Some of the other investigators thought. that maybe it had had been hidden, and a. coyote had carried it out to where it. was found. But the detectives and search and rescue. teams combed the cemetery for 2 days and. never found any additional remains. The next day, a forensic dentist was. able to identify Kimi's remains from her. dental chart provided by her mother. >> Oh, that's awful, and right around.

Christmas, too. That's what she's. dealing with. >> Her 16-year-old child. That's horrific. >> Because there was only a skull and no. other remains, they were unable to. determine her cause of death. >> Oh, that's so awful. >> Now, December passed into January, and. the task force started off the new year. with a. period of relative calm. After Kimi's skull was discovered in the. cemetery, 2 months passed without any. additional bodies. >> Okay. >> Then, as though he'd been operating on a. schedule, the discovery started again.

In what would be one of the most strange. and incomprehensible phases of the. investigation. >> Okay. >> The calm was finally broken on February. 14th, 1984, Valentine's Day. When a set. of skeletal remains were discovered. about a half mile from Interstate 90, which is about 30 miles east of Seattle. It would take more than a year for. forensic dentists to identify the. remains through old childhood x-rays. They belonged to Delise "Missy" Pliger. Um. uh she was working on the streets. She.

was an occasional sex worker who had. gone missing October 30th, 1983. A brief review of Missy's background. shows that she also kind of had a life. that was pretty similar to some of the. other victims. She'd been removed from. her mother's care and placed into foster. care when she was around 5 years old. >> really tough. >> And she kind of got passed from one. place to another for a while. And she also developed a pretty. significant juvenile record. The last time anyone had seen Missy, she. was waiting at a bus stop on Seattle's. south side.

One week after the remains were. discovered out by Interstate 90, Seattle. Post-Intelligencer. reporter, Mike Barber, who had been. writing exclusively about the Green. River Killer, received an anonymous letter at the. office of the newspaper. The letter was in a plain white envelope. with typewritten text on the outside. In addition to the address, the sender. had added the note, "Very important.". But they had spelled it i n p o r t e n. t. >> Dumb important. >> Yeah.

>> When Barber opened the letter, he found. inside a white sheet with more. typewritten text. But at a glance, it. looked like it was complete gibberish. But then after reading and rereading it. several times, he realized it wasn't. gibberish. Instead, it was jumbled. sentences that were all stuck together. with no breaks in between. >> Oh. >> It took some time, but eventually the. reporter was able to untangle the. content of the letter to make it more. legible. Now, the way he would like I'll give you one. >> excerpt. >> thing for how he wrote it, but I'll read.

you the translated version. >> Okay. >> So, what he did was he wrote what you in. one letter in one thing. And then E E D T O N O A B O U T T C H E. Green River Man. >> What you something the Green River Man. >> to know about the Green River Man. >> Okay. >> The next thing was don't throw away. First one broken or dislocate arm, why? One black in river had a stone in the.

vagina, why? Why some in river some above ground some. underground? Insurance who got it? Who's. to gain by their deaths? Truck is out of. state. Father had painted in or in. river. Some had fingernails cut off. He had sex. after they did. He smokes. He chews gum. Chance first one blackmailed him. You. work me or nobody. Think changed his MO businessman or. salesman. Car and motel reservation. Man.

seen big luggage out of motel was heavy. needed help. He's ID car at road. Out of state cop. Don't kill in own area look inside out. One had old scars. Mom apple had red. wine Lambrusco some fish and dumped. there. Any drugs are selling? Head found who. found it? Where is rest? When did they. die, day or night? What are in their mouth or is it a. trick?

Why take some clothes and leave the. rest? The killer wears at least one. ring. Real estate man is one man. Long haul truck driver last seen with. one. Some had rope marks on hands and neck. One black in river had oral only. All strangled but with different. methods. One black in river had worked for metro. Most had pimps bedding them. Escort modeling forced them of fear or. death.

Maybe pimp hater getting back at them. Who finds the bones? What are they there. for? >> Jesus Christ. >> Man with gun or knife. Someone paid to kill others are. {question mark}. Kill who they are or is what they are. Any dead die for the rest. It could be a. man Portland worked there. What kind of. man is this? It was a book left at. Denny's. It belongs to a cop. Call me. Fred. >> What?

>> Yeah. >> The [ __ ]. >> There was no return address or any other. identifying information on the envelope. Just call me Fred. >> Okay. Now, to Barber. and everyone else in the newsroom and. probably to all of you, it seems pretty unlikely that this. letter is coming from the killer. >> Yeah. Cuz like what? Yeah. >> They all thought it had been {quote}. written by someone who wanted to play. detective. He was offering motives that.

anyone might think of. >> Was he offering motives? >> Sometimes. >> [laughter]. >> in there. >> Kind of? >> That could have been true, but the. letter also appeared to contain a lot of. information that was not public. >> Yeah. >> information yet. So, it seemed plausible. that it could have come from the killer. >> And because of that, Barbara turned the. letter over to Dave Reichert at the. Green River Task Force just in case. >> Good idea. >> After reading the letter a few times, Reichert passed the letter to Tonya.

Isaguerre, the task force fingerprint specialist. >> Oh, smart smart smart. >> was able to get one clear print off the. letter, which was kept on file. Remember. we're in the 80s. >> have that yet. >> In the hope that someday they would get. a match. >> Oh man, that's got to be [ __ ] brutal. >> To just be like, "We'll get the. fingerprint, but we can't do anything. with it yet." That's it. We just hope. someday. >> 1984, brother. >> Once they gotten everything they could. from the letter, Reichert sent the. letter to John Douglas at the FBI's.

Behavioral Analysis Unit. >> goodness. >> for his thoughts and any information. that could be gleaned. >> Period. I brought that up earlier. >> A few weeks later, the letter came back. to Reichert along with Douglas's report. In it, Douglas wrote, "The communicator. reflects a subject who is average in. intelligence and one who is making a. feeble and amateurish attempt to gain. some personal importance by manipulating. the investigation.". As for the previously unreleased. information known to the letter writer, Douglas speculated the writer could have.

access to the task force files or had a. relationship with someone on the task. force. >> Okay. >> He went on to conclude, "It is in my. opinion that the author of the written. communique has no connection with the. actual Green River homicides.". >> Okay. >> As the world's leading authority on. serial killers, the task force members. took Douglas's determination that the. letter was fake as the last word on the. matter and it was filed away with the. rest of the other communications that. they got from like the public and. anything like that. It would be more than 20 years before.

Reichert and other investigators learned. that. like this is a rare thing, but Douglas. had been wrong and the letter Mike. Barber received at the. Post-Intelligencer. had indeed come from the Green River. killer. Well, here's the thing. It's. like obviously John Douglas and like. profiles profilers like him are. incredibly educated talented people. But. at the end of the day, it's an informed. guess. >> Well, that's it's an imperfect science.

And so. it's fallible. It just is. Like like. John Douglas was rarely wrong, but he. that was one of the times when he was. wrong. >> But no like no human is right 100% of. the time. >> Well, then also at this point profiling. was in its infancy. >> now we have even more information when. it comes to profiling and all that. Like. this was a pretty new thing. >> Yeah. >> And he was already killing it. So you. know, can't bat a thousand. >> Oh, that's really rough. So he did write. that letter. >> He did write that letter.

>> That letter is wild. >> It's. bonkers. >> When you were reading when you were. reading it to me. like it does have a lot of information. about. >> killing. So I'm actually somewhat. surprised that that was John Douglas's. take on it. >> I get why his guess makes sense like. being somebody like. related to the task force. >> like the task force was big. And it's. like there could have been people that. you know, they're not supposed to go. home and talk about what they're. hearing. But like but you know some of.

them are going home being like can I. just tell you what I read today or like. can I just tell you what I saw today? So. that could easily be it. But. I if you're. go Google that letter if you can so you. can see the the way it looks cuz it's so. bizarre. Uh it's hard to. >> he wrote it that way. Does he ever say? >> I mean, I think he's just [ __ ] up. >> Yeah. I don't I don't know anything. about him as a as an individual. >> Not a lot. He's. >> Was he married?

>> He's dumb as hell. >> We'll get there. >> Oh, you suck. >> Cuz we are going to end part two there. >> [sighs]. >> Cuz I need to step away for a minute. >> Yeah, that was like two parts in one to. be honest. >> That's a That's a lot of death. That's a. lot of women and young girls losing. their lives. >> And unborn babies. >> Yeah. >> And he's a piece of [ __ ] He really is. >> And I hate him and he's gross. >> I guess we'll see you for part three. >> Yeah. >> Let's get a fun fact.

>> Please. >> Woah. I didn't know this. Hawaii gets 3 ft closer to Alaska every. year. 3 ft? That's a lot of feet. That feels a lot. >> It's also like, will we have like a. reverse Pangea? >> I I was just thinking that. I was like, what's going on? Are they going to high. five when it comes? >> Yeah. >> Comes to it? >> Like when will that happen? That's wild. Why does that happen? >> Did you guys know that? Did you guys. know that? >> Does anybody have a last Did Alaskans. and Hawaiians know that?

>> I'm sure they do. >> I was born in Hawaii and I don't know. that. >> I was not and I didn't know that. >> I was illiterate when I left. >> [laughter]. >> Wasn't really even a person yet, but. >> But damn. >> [ __ ]. >> That's crazy. Reverse Pangea's goes. crazy. >> we live to see it. I don't think that we. will, but. 3 ft is a lot. >> I know. >> I don't know how far they are though. I I think that's a good. >> I think they're pretty far. >> I mean, yeah, I would say. >> Yeah. >> I'd [laughter] say they got a little. ways to go. >> They're pretty [ __ ] far.

But yeah, if you have insight on that, hit us up. >> Yeah. >> Chelsea from Alaska. >> Chelsea. >> Let us know. >> Chelsea. >> Period. >> you. >> Love you a lot. >> [laughter]. >> All right. Well, we hope you guys keep. listening and we hope you keep it. >> weird. >> But not so weird. as this. No, [ __ ] that. >> And not so weird that you don't tell us. about Hawaii and Alaska's relationship. >> you guys know about that? >> What's going to happen? >> What do you [music] know? Tell me. Bye.

>> I'm sorry. >> [music]. [music]. [music].

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[music]. [music]. [music]. >> Mhm.